query bug reports?

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query bug reports?

Toni Mueller-10
Hi,

today I wanted to research open bug reports for OpenBSD, using this link
in lieu of anything linked from the homepage:

http://www.openbsd.org/query-pr.html

But when I submit the form, I only get an error message that the CGI was
not found.

Where should I be looking instead, please?


Kind regards,
--Toni++

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Re: query bug reports?

Lévai, Dániel
On Thu, Oct 13, 2011 at 09:01:51 +0200, Toni Mueller wrote:
> Hi,
>
> today I wanted to research open bug reports for OpenBSD, using this link
> in lieu of anything linked from the homepage:

http://marc.info/?l=openbsd-misc&m=131109305204483&w=2


Daniel

--
LIVAI Daniel
PGP key ID = 0x83B63A8F
Key fingerprint = DBEC C66B A47A DFA2 792D  650C C69B BE4C 83B6 3A8F

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Re: query bug reports?

Toni Mueller-10
Hi Daniel,

On Thu, Oct 13, 2011 at 09:10:22AM +0200, LEVAI Daniel wrote:
> On Thu, Oct 13, 2011 at 09:01:51 +0200, Toni Mueller wrote:
> > today I wanted to research open bug reports for OpenBSD, using this link
> > in lieu of anything linked from the homepage:
> http://marc.info/?l=openbsd-misc&m=131109305204483&w=2

thank you very much!

Ok... what's a bug tracker that doesn't suck, then?

I'm not aware of anything that looks like usable specs. After reading
the thread, I would like to chime in, though:

Roundup: Semi-dead, and, imho, very limited and cumbersome functionality
and extendability. I'm a user of it myself.

My vote would go for Redmine (use together with thin), which has a
vastly superiour architecture, a lively community, and a plethora of
plugins (esp. a working plugin architecture). I use that, too.



Kind regards,
--Toni++

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Re: query bug reports?

Johan Ryberg
Why not https://github.com/openbsd?

I think the whole community can benefit a total move to github.

They have it all =)

Regards Johan

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Re: query bug reports?

Otto Moerbeek
On Thu, Oct 13, 2011 at 10:19:03AM +0200, Johan Ryberg wrote:

> Why not https://github.com/openbsd?
>
> I think the whole community can benefit a total move to github.
>
> They have it all =)
>
> Regards Johan

The repository will never be in a place outside direct control of the
developers and especially Theo. A bug database might be different, but
so far there's only been talk and no actions.

        -Otto

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Re: query bug reports?

Johan Ryberg
2011/10/13 Otto Moerbeek <[hidden email]>:
> The repository will never be in a place outside direct control of the
> developers and especially Theo. A bug database might be different, but
> so far there's only been talk and no actions.
>
>        -Otto
>

But since we don't have a bug tracker at all right now and Github has
a working "Issue"-tracker, can't that one be an alternative?

Ports "Work in progress" is using Github and some other OpenBSD
related project are resting there as well. The source can still rest
in the original cvs independent of where all bugs reports are written.

I thinks is has a great psychological impact since a very important
function of the community is broken and it has been broken for a while
now.

Best regards Johan Ryberg

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Re: query bug reports?

Henning Brauer
In reply to this post by Otto Moerbeek
* Otto Moerbeek <[hidden email]> [2011-10-13 10:51]:
> On Thu, Oct 13, 2011 at 10:19:03AM +0200, Johan Ryberg wrote:
> > Why not https://github.com/openbsd?
> > I think the whole community can benefit a total move to github.
> > They have it all =)
> > Regards Johan
> The repository will never be in a place outside direct control of the
> developers and especially Theo.

and using an rcs system without it being in base (and thus, suitably
licensed) won't happen either.

--
Henning Brauer, [hidden email], [hidden email]
BS Web Services, http://bsws.de, Full-Service ISP
Secure Hosting, Mail and DNS Services. Dedicated Servers, Root to Fully Managed
Henning Brauer Consulting, http://henningbrauer.com/

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Re: query bug reports?

Henning Brauer
In reply to this post by Johan Ryberg
* Johan Ryberg <[hidden email]> [2011-10-13 11:22]:
> I thinks is has a great psychological impact since a very important
> function of the community is broken and it has been broken for a while
> now.

it's not as if the tools were broken.

us moving a lot of the development process that used to happen on
internal mailing lists to tech has helped a little bit with getting
more people to get involved, but it could still be better.

blaming the shortage of that on the tools is a poor excuse. if we
switched to git today, nothing would change. except that we, the devs,
had to learn and deal with the quirks of a new rcs system.

--
Henning Brauer, [hidden email], [hidden email]
BS Web Services, http://bsws.de, Full-Service ISP
Secure Hosting, Mail and DNS Services. Dedicated Servers, Root to Fully Managed
Henning Brauer Consulting, http://henningbrauer.com/

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Re: query bug reports?

Jeremie Courreges-Anglas-3
In reply to this post by Johan Ryberg
> Why not https://github.com/openbsd?
HAHAHAHAHAHA ; that was a good one...

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Re: query bug reports?

Johan Ryberg
In reply to this post by Henning Brauer
2011/10/13 Henning Brauer <[hidden email]>:

> it's not as if the tools were broken.
>
> us moving a lot of the development process that used to happen on
> internal mailing lists to tech has helped a little bit with getting
> more people to get involved, but it could still be better.
>
> blaming the shortage of that on the tools is a poor excuse. if we
> switched to git today, nothing would change. except that we, the devs,
> had to learn and deal with the quirks of a new rcs system.
>
> --
> Henning Brauer, [hidden email], [hidden email]
> BS Web Services, http://bsws.de, Full-Service ISP
> Secure Hosting, Mail and DNS Services. Dedicated Servers, Root to Fully Managed
> Henning Brauer Consulting, http://henningbrauer.com/

I can just speak for my self and I have been a member of misc@ for
many years and It's just since the last week I also become a member of
tech@. I had not a single clue that it was important testing that was
going on in that list and help was needed.

I will for sure do my share and help testing diffs but just blaming
the commitment of the community is wrong.

I think it's a combination of everything, both commitment, tools and
information.

Jeremie Courreges-Anglas response/behaviour is one typical thing what
totally drains our (users) engagement. We hardly not dare to write a
single line because there is a little but disturbing kind of people
that destroys for all others. One little suggestion, hint or anything
that's unorthodox in the spirit of OpenBSD and you get bashed and put
in the corner of shame.

I just think that the commitment can improve if we also has the right
tools. For example, if a developer needs help and I could find all
open cases with diffs that need be tested then it would be more easy
for me to take that diff, test and then send a response. When the
developer has enough input then he/she can close the case. For sure,
we can read old threads in the list but does the developer sends a
notice when the test is done and no more input is needed? How do we
work efficient ? Not only the developers time is important, every
single person that are committed to OpenBSDs time is important.

I would love to help writing a new bug tracker that could be merged
into base but I'm no skilled coder but I have engagement and I want to
help testing. I can probably provide server and space but for sure
give my own time as a tester of the system.

Best regards Johan

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Re: query bug reports?

Bret Lambert-3
On Thu, Oct 13, 2011 at 12:28:59PM +0200, Johan Ryberg wrote:

[cut to the chase]

> I would love to help writing a new bug tracker that could be merged
> into base but I'm no skilled coder but I have engagement and I want to
> help testing. I can probably provide server and space but for sure
> give my own time as a tester of the system.

At one point or another, every skilled coder was an unskilled coder.

A need is going unfilled, and either someone will change that, or they won't.
Either way, it's not going to be changed by mailing list chatter.

Please, can we just think of the children and agree kill this thread
before it becomes even more noise?

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Re: query bug reports?

frantisek holop
In reply to this post by Otto Moerbeek
hmm, on Thu, Oct 13, 2011 at 10:50:54AM +0200, Otto Moerbeek said that

> On Thu, Oct 13, 2011 at 10:19:03AM +0200, Johan Ryberg wrote:
>
> > Why not https://github.com/openbsd?
> >
> > I think the whole community can benefit a total move to github.
> >
> > They have it all =)
> >
> > Regards Johan
>
> The repository will never be in a place outside direct control of the
> developers and especially Theo. A bug database might be different, but
> so far there's only been talk and no actions.

time to bring in fossil! :]

source control, wiki _and_ ticketing system in one under bsd license!


now seriously.  i am sure the devs have looked into many bug tracking
systems before announcing that all of them are "inadequate".

but the previous one sucked more balls than any homemade php/mysql
monstrosity, so i guess anything would be an improvement.


regarding github (or other sites like that), the main
repository needs not change.  a cvs post-commit hook might
simply commit to that github repo -- a fancy mirror with
a built-in issue tracker.


another possibility might be asking an open source friendly
issue tracker producer if they'd be interested in providing
unlimited license to this open source project (atlassian comes
to my mind[1]).  no harm in asking...

[1] http://www.atlassian.com/about/community/free-open-source-licenses.jsp


-f
--
there is never sunshine without shadow.

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Re: query bug reports?

Jeremie Courreges-Anglas-3
In reply to this post by Johan Ryberg
> Jeremie Courreges-Anglas response/behaviour is one typical thing what
> totally drains our (users) engagement. We hardly not dare to write a
> single line because there is a little but disturbing kind of people
> that destroys for all others. One little suggestion, hint or anything
> that's unorthodox in the spirit of OpenBSD and you get bashed and put
> in the corner of shame.

some little details:
1) yes, I'm that kind of crappy user that doesn't test any diff and doesn't
   help the OpenBSD community to grow further. blah
2) yes, I do like using git (why? not sure...trends?) ; would I prefer the
   OpenBSD devs to use it? No. I prefer the OpenBSD "team" to use tools that
   are under control instead of a shitty js-full web interface such as
   github's (please don't try to learn me that one's not forced to use
   github's web interface, I really don't care).
3) if you want to send a diff, you can do it, and it doesn't take much time.
   Just do it: you won't know about it, but I'll feel better taking a look
   at your diff than reading you whining about "why doesn't foo use github?".
4) i'm not afraid to get bashed if I say crap / if I provide a wrong diff.

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Re: query bug reports?

Eric Oyen
I happen to be one of the end users of OpenBSD and read this (and the other
related) list and I have not seen much in the way of the behavior you are
describing. Granted, Theo has his preferred methods when it comes to
developing and reviewing code for the OS and utilities.

The only response I have seen Theo give to a question or request outside his
area of expertise is "not supported". This leaves the person asking the
question (or developing a project)but one option: attempt it themselves.
now, as for bug reports, there are number of recommended tools. there is also
a recommended format for the reports. depending on the project, the devs might
recommend a particular tool and it is usually a good idea to follow those
recommendations (cuts down on confusing the devs and others participating in
the project in question).

there you have from an end user: the right tools for the right job. believe
me, I have had to learn this lesson THE HARD WAY.

-Eric

On Oct 13, 2011, at 6:38 PM, Jeremie Courreges-Anglas wrote:

>> Jeremie Courreges-Anglas response/behaviour is one typical thing what
>> totally drains our (users) engagement. We hardly not dare to write a
>> single line because there is a little but disturbing kind of people
>> that destroys for all others. One little suggestion, hint or anything
>> that's unorthodox in the spirit of OpenBSD and you get bashed and put
>> in the corner of shame.
>
> some little details:
> 1) yes, I'm that kind of crappy user that doesn't test any diff and doesn't
>   help the OpenBSD community to grow further. blah
> 2) yes, I do like using git (why? not sure...trends?) ; would I prefer the
>   OpenBSD devs to use it? No. I prefer the OpenBSD "team" to use tools that
>   are under control instead of a shitty js-full web interface such as
>   github's (please don't try to learn me that one's not forced to use
>   github's web interface, I really don't care).
> 3) if you want to send a diff, you can do it, and it doesn't take much
time.
>   Just do it: you won't know about it, but I'll feel better taking a look
>   at your diff than reading you whining about "why doesn't foo use
github?".
> 4) i'm not afraid to get bashed if I say crap / if I provide a wrong diff.

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Re: query bug reports?

Toni Mueller-10
In reply to this post by Toni Mueller-10
Hi,

On Thu, Oct 13, 2011 at 09:40:42AM +0200, Toni Mueller wrote:
> My vote would go for Redmine (use together with thin), which has a

if the project wants to use/try it, I can offer my help with this one.

Please contact me off-list.


Kind regards,
--Toni++

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Re: query bug reports?

Alexander Polakov-2
In reply to this post by Jeremie Courreges-Anglas-3
* Jeremie Courreges-Anglas <[hidden email]> [111014 05:45]:
> 4) i'm not afraid to get bashed if I say crap / if I provide a wrong diff.

That's fine with me too. What I dislike is when I get no comments at
all. Developers are busy, it's a known fact, but writing "will look into
it" or "no way for this feature in OpenBSD" doesn't take much time, does
it? I guess diffs just get lost in the flows of mailinglists. Here comes
the issue of better tools.

--
Alexander Polakov | plhk.ru

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Re: query bug reports?

Ingo Schwarze
Hi,

Alexander Polakov wrote on Sat, Oct 15, 2011 at 01:13:00AM +0400:

> What I dislike is when I get no comments at all.

There are two typical reasons for that:

 - The people in charge missed it / forgot about it.
   You can try to figure out (using CVS history) who is
   in charge in that particular area and ask directly.

 - The people in charge think the proposal is not of
   sufficient quality / interest to discuss it.
   In that case, following a private inquiry, chances
   are they will at least tell you exactly that or
   provide other brief advice.

It happens to me, too, that sometimes i get no feedback,
and i need to keep track of my pending patches waiting
for OKs.  The trick is to talk to the right people -
neither pestering them too much, wasting their time,
nor letting stuff rot and be forgotten.

Yours,
  Ingo