openbsdstore: enable javascript and buy something or gtfo

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openbsdstore: enable javascript and buy something or gtfo

davidson
In my browser of choice, configured sensibly, this is all that can be
seen at openbsdstore.com and openbsdeurope.com:

| The OpenBSD Store

| If you have JavaScript disabled you will not be able to order from
| this site...

And yes, it literally ends with an ellipsis.

Strangely enough, this doesn't incline me to enable javascript.

-wes

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Re: openbsdstore: enable javascript and buy something or gtfo

Bryan Steele-2
On Fri, Oct 03, 2014 at 10:09:36AM -0400, [hidden email] wrote:

> In my browser of choice, configured sensibly, this is all that can be
> seen at openbsdstore.com and openbsdeurope.com:
>
> | The OpenBSD Store
>
> | If you have JavaScript disabled you will not be able to order from
> | this site...
>
> And yes, it literally ends with an ellipsis.
>
> Strangely enough, this doesn't incline me to enable javascript.
>
> -wes

So, you visit an order page likely content on providing your billing
information and shipping address, but it's the use of Javascript that
sways your final decision to order?

Right...

-Bryan.

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Re: openbsdstore: enable javascript and buy something or gtfo

Martin Schröder
In reply to this post by davidson
2014-10-03 16:09 GMT+02:00  <[hidden email]>:
> Strangely enough, this doesn't incline me to enable javascript.

Why?

Don't you trust the store?

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Re: openbsdstore: enable javascript and buy something or gtfo

Alan McKay
In reply to this post by Bryan Steele-2
On Fri, Oct 3, 2014 at 10:25 AM, Bryan Steele <[hidden email]> wrote:
> So, you visit an order page likely content on providing your billing
> information and shipping address, but it's the use of Javascript that
> sways your final decision to order?

I thought it was the ellipsis that did it :-)


--
"Don't eat anything you've ever seen advertised on TV"
         - Michael Pollan, author of "In Defense of Food"

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Re: openbsdstore: enable javascript and buy something or gtfo

trondd
He didn't say it changed his decision to order.  It is a rather terse and
unhelpful message, though.  It could at least mention the option of
ordering via email.

Tim.

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Re: openbsdstore: enable javascript and buy something or gtfo

davidson
In reply to this post by Martin Schröder
On Fri, 3 Oct 2014, Martin Schröder wrote:

> 2014-10-03 16:09 GMT+02:00  <[hidden email]>:
>> Strangely enough, this doesn't incline me to enable javascript.
>
> Why?
>
> Don't you trust the store?

Heh, literally blind trust, eh?

What store?  You call it a store.  And I did expect it to be a store
of some kind, since openbsd.org/orders.html links to it as the sole
source for CDs.

But the failure to provide minimal contact info, not to mention any
descriptive content, doesn't inspire confidence.

Whoever is responsible for it, if they can't be troubled to put up an
accessible website, then it really doesn't matter whether I employ
Hanlon's razor or not.  Whether this is a case of malice or
incompetence, my response is the same.

-wes

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Re: openbsdstore: enable javascript and buy something or gtfo

davidson
In reply to this post by Bryan Steele-2
On Fri, 3 Oct 2014, Bryan Steele wrote:

> On Fri, Oct 03, 2014 at 10:09:36AM -0400, [hidden email] wrote:
>> In my browser of choice, configured sensibly, this is all that can be
>> seen at openbsdstore.com and openbsdeurope.com:
>>
>> | The OpenBSD Store
>>
>> | If you have JavaScript disabled you will not be able to order from
>> | this site...
>>
>> And yes, it literally ends with an ellipsis.
>>
>> Strangely enough, this doesn't incline me to enable javascript.
>>
>> -wes
>
> So, you visit an order page likely content on providing your billing
> information and shipping address, but it's the use of Javascript that
> sways your final decision to order?

Who said anything about an order page?

Who said anything about final decisions?  The text provided gave me no
information upon which to base any decision of that kind.

As I made perfectly clear in my post, the accessible content on the
website is a single, elided sentence.

Why should I enable javascript to obtain basic information about a
website?

Really, it's quite an achievement, seeing as even Facebook pages
aren't completely void of content when viewed without javascript.

-wes

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Re: openbsdstore: enable javascript and buy something or gtfo

Theo de Raadt
In reply to this post by davidson
> > 2014-10-03 16:09 GMT+02:00  <[hidden email]>:
> >> Strangely enough, this doesn't incline me to enable javascript.
> >
> > Why?
> >
> > Don't you trust the store?
>
> Heh, literally blind trust, eh?
>
> What store?  You call it a store.  And I did expect it to be a store
> of some kind, since openbsd.org/orders.html links to it as the sole
> source for CDs.
>
> But the failure to provide minimal contact info, not to mention any
> descriptive content, doesn't inspire confidence.
>
> Whoever is responsible for it, if they can't be troubled to put up an
> accessible website, then it really doesn't matter whether I employ
> Hanlon's razor or not.  Whether this is a case of malice or
> incompetence, my response is the same.


So easy to be critical.

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Re: openbsdstore: enable javascript and buy something or gtfo

Theo de Raadt
In reply to this post by davidson
> Who said anything about an order page?
>
> Who said anything about final decisions?  The text provided gave me no
> information upon which to base any decision of that kind.
>
> As I made perfectly clear in my post, the accessible content on the
> website is a single, elided sentence.
>
> Why should I enable javascript to obtain basic information about a
> website?
>
> Really, it's quite an achievement, seeing as even Facebook pages
> aren't completely void of content when viewed without javascript.

You know who to mail, to help get that improved.

But instead you brought your complaint to misc.


You have an agenda.

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Re: openbsdstore: enable javascript and buy something or gtfo

davidson
In reply to this post by davidson
On Fri, 3 Oct 2014, Theo de Raadt wrote:

> So easy to be critical.

Sure.  And some criticism happens to be useful.

Some say it's even more useful than wagon-circling.

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Re: openbsdstore: enable javascript and buy something or gtfo

davidson
In reply to this post by davidson
On Fri, 3 Oct 2014, Theo de Raadt wrote:

>> Who said anything about an order page?
>>
>> Who said anything about final decisions?  The text provided gave me no
>> information upon which to base any decision of that kind.
>>
>> As I made perfectly clear in my post, the accessible content on the
>> website is a single, elided sentence.
>>
>> Why should I enable javascript to obtain basic information about a
>> website?
>>
>> Really, it's quite an achievement, seeing as even Facebook pages
>> aren't completely void of content when viewed without javascript.
>
> You know who to mail, to help get that improved.

No, I actually don't.  See my first post.  I could guess, but I didn't
feel like guessing.

> But instead you brought your complaint to misc.

Indeed.

> You have an agenda.

Sure do.  I had reason to distrust the website, as I've explained.

But I have no reason to distrust this listserv.

-wes

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Re: openbsdstore: enable javascript and buy something or gtfo

Aaron Bieber
On Fri, Oct 3, 2014 at 10:48 AM,  <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Fri, 3 Oct 2014, Theo de Raadt wrote:
>
>>> Who said anything about an order page?
>>>
>>> Who said anything about final decisions?  The text provided gave me no
>>> information upon which to base any decision of that kind.
>>>
>>> As I made perfectly clear in my post, the accessible content on the
>>> website is a single, elided sentence.
>>>
>>> Why should I enable javascript to obtain basic information about a
>>> website?
>>>
>>> Really, it's quite an achievement, seeing as even Facebook pages
>>> aren't completely void of content when viewed without javascript.
>>
>>
>> You know who to mail, to help get that improved.
>
>
> No, I actually don't.  See my first post.  I could guess, but I didn't
> feel like guessing.

To be fair - you probably couldn't see the contact info with JS disabled.

Here it is for your convenience:

  If you wish to contact us by phone, please call +44 (0) 115 986
8786, Monday to Friday 10am-2:30pm - Linda Bramley

  Email: [hidden email]
  Address:
  OpenBSD Store
  Zednax Limited
  241 Wellington Road South
  Stockport
  SK2 6NG

  OpenBSD Store is a trading name of Zednax Limited.
  Zednax Limited is registered in England and Wales, Company no.
05321754. Registered address: Meadow House, Meadow Lane, Nottingham,
NG2 3HS.
  Zednax Limited is VAT registered, VAT registration no. GB 855 4468 92.

Also this is from openbsd.org:
  Pre-orders for the upcoming OpenBSD 5.6 release are enabled at our
new order site -- openbsdstore.com operated by Zednax Limited from the
UK.

>
>> But instead you brought your complaint to misc.
>
>
> Indeed.
>
>> You have an agenda.
>
>
> Sure do.  I had reason to distrust the website, as I've explained.
>
> But I have no reason to distrust this listserv.
>
> -wes

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Re: openbsdstore: enable javascript and buy something or gtfo

ludovic coues
In reply to this post by davidson
2014-10-03 16:09 GMT+02:00  <[hidden email]>:
> In my browser of choice, configured sensibly, this is all that can be
> seen at openbsdstore.com and openbsdeurope.com:
>
> | The OpenBSD Store
>
> | If you have JavaScript disabled you will not be able to order from
> | this site...
>

I'm curious, how did you get this message ?

--

Cordialement, Coues Ludovic
+336 148 743 42

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Re: openbsdstore: enable javascript and buy something or gtfo

Matti Karnaattu
In reply to this post by davidson
>Why should I enable javascript to obtain basic information about a
>website?

Why do not keep Javascript all time enabled?

Keeping Javascript disabled is like disabling programmability from
shell. What is the idea?

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Re: openbsdstore: enable javascript and buy something or gtfo

J Sisson
In reply to this post by ludovic coues
On Fri, Oct 3, 2014 at 9:53 AM, ludovic coues <[hidden email]> wrote:

> 2014-10-03 16:09 GMT+02:00  <[hidden email]>:
>> In my browser of choice, configured sensibly, this is all that can be
>> seen at openbsdstore.com and openbsdeurope.com:
>>
>> | The OpenBSD Store
>>
>> | If you have JavaScript disabled you will not be able to order from
>> | this site...
>>
>
> I'm curious, how did you get this message ?
>
> --
>
> Cordialement, Coues Ludovic
> +336 148 743 42
>

$ curl openbsdstore.com
<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.0 Transitional//EN"
"http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/DTD/xhtml1-transitional.dtd">
<html xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml">
<head>
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1" />
<title>The OpenBSD Store</title>
</head>

<body><script><!--
window.location="https://www.openbsdstore.com/cgi-bin/live/ecommerce.pl?site=shop_openbsdeurope_com&state=department";
--></script>

<noscript>
If you have JavaScript disabled you will not be able to order from this site...
</noscript>
</body>
</html>

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Re: openbsdstore: enable javascript and buy something or gtfo

davidson
In reply to this post by davidson
On Fri, 3 Oct 2014, [hidden email] wrote:

> On Fri, 3 Oct 2014, Theo de Raadt wrote:

>> But instead you brought your complaint to misc.
>
> Indeed.
>
>> You have an agenda.
>
> Sure do.  I had reason to distrust the website, as I've explained.
>
> But I have no reason to distrust this listserv.

I'll elaborate a little, in the interest of clarity, and then leave
the thread.

I can't know what interest openbsdeurope has in requiring users to
enable JS to obtain any information from their website.

But it occurred to me that such an interest *could* conceivably
conflict with the interests of the openbsd project, and perhaps some
of its users.

So I shared what I had noticed, with the project and its users here.

In good faith.

Take care.

-wes

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Re: openbsdstore: enable javascript and buy something or gtfo

davidson
In reply to this post by Matti Karnaattu
On Fri, 3 Oct 2014, Matti Karnaattu wrote:

>> Why should I enable javascript to obtain basic information about a
>> website?
>
> Why do not keep Javascript all time enabled?
>
> Keeping Javascript disabled is like disabling programmability from
> shell. What is the idea?

You're making a joke, maybe?

*I* choose what programs my shell executes.  But when I visit a
webpage on the internet with javascript enabled, someone *else*
chooses what programs are executed.

So I don't enable javascript unless there's a good reason.  And, for
my purposes, there almost never is a good reason.

-wes

--
"It's a universal symbol, a man and a woman together.  It's a
restroom."  --- some guy sitting next to me on an airplane

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Re: openbsdstore: enable javascript and buy something or gtfo

Jonathan Thornburg-3
In reply to this post by davidson
> | The OpenBSD Store
>
> | If you have JavaScript disabled you will not be able to order from
> | this site...

ludovic coues asked
| I'm curious, how did you get this message ?

(running 5.5-stable amd64)

lynx https://www.openbsdstore.com

or

lynx http://www.openbsd.org
--> Buy CDs/Shirts/Posters
--> the OpenBSD Store

--
-- "Jonathan Thornburg [remove -animal to reply]" <[hidden email]>
   Dept of Astronomy & IUCSS, Indiana University, Bloomington, Indiana, USA
   "There was of course no way of knowing whether you were being watched
    at any given moment.  How often, or on what system, the Thought Police
    plugged in on any individual wire was guesswork.  It was even conceivable
    that they watched everybody all the time."  -- George Orwell, "1984"

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Re: [Bulk] Re: openbsdstore: enable javascript and buy something or gtfo

Kevin Chadwick-2
In reply to this post by davidson
On Fri, 3 Oct 2014 13:26:11 -0400 (EDT)
[hidden email] wrote:

> >
> > Keeping Javascript disabled is like disabling programmability from
> > shell. What is the idea?  
>
> You're making a joke, maybe?
>
> *I* choose what programs my shell executes.  But when I visit a
> webpage on the internet with javascript enabled, someone *else*
> chooses what programs are executed.
>
> So I don't enable javascript unless there's a good reason.  And, for
> my purposes, there almost never is a good reason.

True and you wouldn't allow visitors to inject shell into your
webserver and navigation of a site should not require javascript as
per w3c guidelines.

However considering OpenBSD users are security savvy and should
understand the potential risks of random sites running javascript and
it may be that the cheapest or current pay system available required
javascript then it is probably more useful to ask paypal why on earth
they reduced the potential security of their users for a slightly nicer
look or investigate and suggest an alternative.

OTOH I am told but correct me if I am wrong that in Germany they use
bank transfers rather than credit cards and the banks I use no longer
require javascript so perhaps that would be a better and more
secure system all round, assuming they have a good method to verify the
account numbers.

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Re: openbsdstore: enable javascript and buy something or gtfo

Matti Karnaattu
In reply to this post by davidson
>I can't know what interest openbsdeurope has in requiring users to
>enable JS to obtain any information from their website.

Probably 999 users in thousand doesn't want to make web crippled and
doesn't even think that standard JS is any special requirement.

> *I* choose what programs my shell executes.  But when I visit a
> webpage on the internet with javascript enabled, someone *else*
> chooses what programs are executed.

No, you choosed that web page to visit.

I think that you don't probably understand that web is nowadays
by default, software platform. Web pages are applications.

You can make your life easier by enabling Javascript.

Soon it is probably nearly impossible to do anything useful with web
without Javascript. It is defacto and dejure standard language for
portable applications.

1234