openbsd web site design proposals (from HOTO write bad docs)

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openbsd web site design proposals (from HOTO write bad docs)

frantisek holop
dear list,

before Theo brings up the (very) valid point of haven't
been able to see any proposed design (even if rejected
without looking) i would like to ask fellow designers
or anyone who feels like to make an openbsd site design
proposal just to show that actually there is interest
in making the old pages retire after so many years of
faithful serving.

i am willing to host all the participants' efforts
as a central "repository", or even only links
to these pages.

make some noise people, so we can say at least we tried.

-f
--
i am so open-minded my brain falls out.

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Re: openbsd web site design proposals (from HOTO write bad docs)

Nick Holland
frantisek holop wrote:

> dear list,
>
> before Theo brings up the (very) valid point of haven't
> been able to see any proposed design (even if rejected
> without looking) i would like to ask fellow designers
> or anyone who feels like to make an openbsd site design
> proposal just to show that actually there is interest
> in making the old pages retire after so many years of
> faithful serving.
>
> i am willing to host all the participants' efforts
> as a central "repository", or even only links
> to these pages.
>
> make some noise people, so we can say at least we tried.
>
> -f

Like FreeBSD and NetBSD's "redesign our web site" contest.  Riiight..

No.
We've spent way too much time laughing at those already (both the
process and the results).

You can do what you want, but your work will be ignored.

OpenBSD is NOT a committee-run OS project.
I think a lot of people miss this.  If there is ONE THING that
distinguishes OpenBSD from most other OSs out there, it is the fact that
OpenBSD is the work of a small group of people following the lead of
*one* person.  There is no question of direction, there is no "five
different products to accomplish same task, because we don't have the
guts to make a decision and endorse just one".

As has been pointed out repeatedly, OpenBSD developers develop the OS
for their own use.  If your uses are compatible with the developer's
goals, OpenBSD is for you.  If not, you quickly realize not to waste
your time.  You don't see OpenBSD flopping around without a clear
direction.  You don't end up wondering, "will they change directions to
meet my goals, or will they abandon my goals?".

If or when Theo decides the web site should be restructured, it will be
restructured.  If/when that happens, I would be very surprised if
something other than one of two things were to happen:
  1) Theo rebuilds it and says, "here's the new design".
  2) Theo hires/selects ONE PERSON to redesign it, and looks at the
result and says, "here is the new design" (or rips someone's head off).

Committee design is NOT what we are about.  You don't see contests for
CD designs or release themes.

Contrary to what some people think, we are not a web-design company.
Our product is not a super-cool website.  Our product is an OS we need
and use.  The website is just an information source about the product,
maintained by software developers and documenters.  When I write
material to help other people with similar interests use OpenBSD, I'm
not worried about if it uses the features of the best of the current
crop of browsers, I want to get the information across effectively.  I
measure my success based on the information conveyed, not how pretty it
is.  I have reason to believe I do a half-way decent job at this.  If
someone wishes to prove they can do a better job, go for it, I'm sure
Theo would love to have a more productive person doing what I do (and
what he would like me to do that I'll never have time for).  I won't
fight it.  I have not been bored in well over 20 years, I have NO
problem occupying my time.  BTW: quality of work will be judged on
content, not "style".

Nick.

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Re: openbsd web site design proposals (from HOTO write bad docs)

J Moore
Why don't you cut the guy some slack - or at least shut your yap on this
(puh-l-e-e-e-ze)? I don't see *any* of what you're claiming to be
OpenBSD policy stated on the website. In fact I see a statement
(somewhat) to the contrary:

Be as politics-free as possible; solutions should be decided on the
basis of technical merit.

And if it's the one-man show you claim, why don't you let "the man"
speak for himself? Or if you've been hired as the "official OpenBSD
bitch", please - let us know.

Jay



On Sun, Nov 27, 2005 at 11:03:19PM -0500, the unit calling itself Nick Holland wrote:

> frantisek holop wrote:
> > dear list,
> >
> > before Theo brings up the (very) valid point of haven't
> > been able to see any proposed design (even if rejected
> > without looking) i would like to ask fellow designers
> > or anyone who feels like to make an openbsd site design
> > proposal just to show that actually there is interest
> > in making the old pages retire after so many years of
> > faithful serving.
> >
> > i am willing to host all the participants' efforts
> > as a central "repository", or even only links
> > to these pages.
> >
> > make some noise people, so we can say at least we tried.
> >
> > -f
>
> Like FreeBSD and NetBSD's "redesign our web site" contest.  Riiight..
>
> No.
> We've spent way too much time laughing at those already (both the
> process and the results).
>
> You can do what you want, but your work will be ignored.
>
> OpenBSD is NOT a committee-run OS project.
> I think a lot of people miss this.  If there is ONE THING that
> distinguishes OpenBSD from most other OSs out there, it is the fact that
> OpenBSD is the work of a small group of people following the lead of
> *one* person.  There is no question of direction, there is no "five
> different products to accomplish same task, because we don't have the
> guts to make a decision and endorse just one".
>
> As has been pointed out repeatedly, OpenBSD developers develop the OS
> for their own use.  If your uses are compatible with the developer's
> goals, OpenBSD is for you.  If not, you quickly realize not to waste
> your time.  You don't see OpenBSD flopping around without a clear
> direction.  You don't end up wondering, "will they change directions to
> meet my goals, or will they abandon my goals?".
>
> If or when Theo decides the web site should be restructured, it will be
> restructured.  If/when that happens, I would be very surprised if
> something other than one of two things were to happen:
>   1) Theo rebuilds it and says, "here's the new design".
>   2) Theo hires/selects ONE PERSON to redesign it, and looks at the
> result and says, "here is the new design" (or rips someone's head off).
>
> Committee design is NOT what we are about.  You don't see contests for
> CD designs or release themes.
>
> Contrary to what some people think, we are not a web-design company.
> Our product is not a super-cool website.  Our product is an OS we need
> and use.  The website is just an information source about the product,
> maintained by software developers and documenters.  When I write
> material to help other people with similar interests use OpenBSD, I'm
> not worried about if it uses the features of the best of the current
> crop of browsers, I want to get the information across effectively.  I
> measure my success based on the information conveyed, not how pretty it
> is.  I have reason to believe I do a half-way decent job at this.  If
> someone wishes to prove they can do a better job, go for it, I'm sure
> Theo would love to have a more productive person doing what I do (and
> what he would like me to do that I'll never have time for).  I won't
> fight it.  I have not been bored in well over 20 years, I have NO
> problem occupying my time.  BTW: quality of work will be judged on
> content, not "style".
>
> Nick.

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Re: openbsd web site design proposals (from HOTO write bad docs)

STeve Andre'
On Monday 28 November 2005 01:33, J Moore wrote:

> Why don't you cut the guy some slack - or at least shut your yap on this
> (puh-l-e-e-e-ze)? I don't see *any* of what you're claiming to be
> OpenBSD policy stated on the website. In fact I see a statement
> (somewhat) to the contrary:
>
> Be as politics-free as possible; solutions should be decided on the
> basis of technical merit.
>
> And if it's the one-man show you claim, why don't you let "the man"
> speak for himself? Or if you've been hired as the "official OpenBSD
> bitch", please - let us know.
>
> Jay

Jay, I would think that the lack of response from Theo should say
something.

I agree with Nick; functionality over form *any* day.  The current
web site is quite reasonable I think.  Could it be improved?
Probably.  But the site is still very good, and I for one would
rather see the project move along the way it has been.

I know the person who posted the original question has the best
of intentions, but I don't think he quite understands how things
work.  And no, there probably isn't a statement of exactly how
things work.  Watching the mailing lists is the way to learn.  I
think that *is* stated on the site.

--STeve Andre'

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Re: openbsd web site design proposals (from HOTO write bad docs)

frantisek holop
In reply to this post by Nick Holland
hmm, on Sun, Nov 27, 2005 at 11:03:19PM -0500, Nick Holland said that
> You can do what you want, but your work will be ignored.

a beautiful attitude.  i hope the project won't acquire it also.
because even though we are the lowest life form, the users of
this system, we also contribute back as much as we can, and
actually make this system better.
and of course, we pay Theo's bills you like it or not.


anyway did i say something else?  feel free to ignore it.

i will submit at least one, even if ignored.  because i care.
and because as a poster before me beautifully pointed out
"Be as politics-free as possible; solutions should be decided on the
basis of technical merit."

and if Theo doesn't know what's good html, he should ask
someone in his core team who does, because he's a kernel
hacker and nobody expects him to know that.

and sorry Nick, but i think it shouldn't be you.
your opposition to anything new is a sad contradiction
to the "openbsd way".


> OpenBSD is NOT a committee-run OS project.

<snip the rest of Nick politics>

i have been here for quite some time now Nick, you don't
have to explain to me how the project is run.
as if i didn't know.


> If or when Theo decides the web site should be restructured, it will be
> restructured.  If/when that happens, I would be very surprised if
> something other than one of two things were to happen:
>   1) Theo rebuilds it and says, "here's the new design".
>   2) Theo hires/selects ONE PERSON to redesign it, and looks at the
> result and says, "here is the new design" (or rips someone's head off).

why do you speak for him?  you suddenly became his spokesperson?

and if this is the way to do it, then ASK that one person to do it
and send it to misc@ for comments (as you said in your decalogue
which started all this)

> Committee design is NOT what we are about.  You don't see contests for
> CD designs or release themes.

exactly, damn it!  the cd's can be nice and the page not?
where is the logics?  why doesn't Theo just spit out the
cd's with the same ascii art cover and sleeve every year?

because DESIGN MATTERS.  you just blew your argument.
now go and compare the cd covers with the site please.



> Contrary to what some people think, we are not a web-design company.

trying to make me ridiculous again?  you think i think openbsd is
a web-design company?  again, this extremism on this list, one
can breathe it.  you used be much humbler a couple of years ago.


> problem occupying my time.  BTW: quality of work will be judged on
> content, not "style".

BTW. quality of work will be judged on content AND style.
one does not exclude the other?


and who said the dev's should do it? they can code.
that doesn't mean they can do everything else included.  


the fact that YOU cannot make the pages look better does not
mean someone else shouldn't be given a shot.


or as i said, at least make them f#$%^ validate.
i will send the patches at least for this feel free to ignore
them again.

because as you are now Theo's spokesperson, then you might know
what he thinks about standards in general: yeah, break them all.

-f
--
i'll give you a definite maybe.

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Re: openbsd web site design proposals (from HOTO write bad docs)

John G. Gavrilitsa
Heya, list!
C'mon ppl, stop argue and yell at each other
Just do whatever you feel it's necessary and propose your work

----- Original Message -----
From: "frantisek holop" <[hidden email]>
To: "misc" <[hidden email]>
Sent: Monday, November 28, 2005 11:04 AM
Subject: Re: openbsd web site design proposals (from HOTO write bad docs)


> hmm, on Sun, Nov 27, 2005 at 11:03:19PM -0500, Nick Holland said that
>> You can do what you want, but your work will be ignored.
>
> a beautiful attitude.  i hope the project won't acquire it also.
> because even though we are the lowest life form, the users of
> this system, we also contribute back as much as we can, and
> actually make this system better.
> and of course, we pay Theo's bills you like it or not.
>
>
> anyway did i say something else?  feel free to ignore it.
>
> i will submit at least one, even if ignored.  because i care.
> and because as a poster before me beautifully pointed out
> "Be as politics-free as possible; solutions should be decided on the
> basis of technical merit."
>
> and if Theo doesn't know what's good html, he should ask
> someone in his core team who does, because he's a kernel
> hacker and nobody expects him to know that.
>
> and sorry Nick, but i think it shouldn't be you.
> your opposition to anything new is a sad contradiction
> to the "openbsd way".
>
>
>> OpenBSD is NOT a committee-run OS project.
>
> <snip the rest of Nick politics>
>
> i have been here for quite some time now Nick, you don't
> have to explain to me how the project is run.
> as if i didn't know.
>
>
>> If or when Theo decides the web site should be restructured, it will be
>> restructured.  If/when that happens, I would be very surprised if
>> something other than one of two things were to happen:
>>   1) Theo rebuilds it and says, "here's the new design".
>>   2) Theo hires/selects ONE PERSON to redesign it, and looks at the
>> result and says, "here is the new design" (or rips someone's head off).
>
> why do you speak for him?  you suddenly became his spokesperson?
>
> and if this is the way to do it, then ASK that one person to do it
> and send it to misc@ for comments (as you said in your decalogue
> which started all this)
>
>> Committee design is NOT what we are about.  You don't see contests for
>> CD designs or release themes.
>
> exactly, damn it!  the cd's can be nice and the page not?
> where is the logics?  why doesn't Theo just spit out the
> cd's with the same ascii art cover and sleeve every year?
>
> because DESIGN MATTERS.  you just blew your argument.
> now go and compare the cd covers with the site please.
>
>
>
>> Contrary to what some people think, we are not a web-design company.
>
> trying to make me ridiculous again?  you think i think openbsd is
> a web-design company?  again, this extremism on this list, one
> can breathe it.  you used be much humbler a couple of years ago.
>
>
>> problem occupying my time.  BTW: quality of work will be judged on
>> content, not "style".
>
> BTW. quality of work will be judged on content AND style.
> one does not exclude the other?
>
>
> and who said the dev's should do it? they can code.
> that doesn't mean they can do everything else included.  
>
>
> the fact that YOU cannot make the pages look better does not
> mean someone else shouldn't be given a shot.
>
>
> or as i said, at least make them f#$%^ validate.
> i will send the patches at least for this feel free to ignore
> them again.
>
> because as you are now Theo's spokesperson, then you might know
> what he thinks about standards in general: yeah, break them all.
>
> -f
> --
> i'll give you a definite maybe.

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Re: openbsd web site design proposals (from HOTO write bad docs)

John G. Gavrilitsa
In reply to this post by frantisek holop
... damn keyboard...
where was I...

Aaa.. Propose your work, no matter alfa/beta...
for everybody's viewing pleasure
Then and only then it would be decided by project's leader if it's worth to
change something or not
Does anybody drive on the right in Australia just because he feel it would
be right? No, because there are laws and the individuum must obey them.
Same here. The project has it's leader and, personally, either I'm agree or
not - I obey the rules

Cheers.

----- Original Message -----
From: "frantisek holop" <[hidden email]>
To: "misc" <[hidden email]>
Sent: Monday, November 28, 2005 11:04 AM
Subject: Re: openbsd web site design proposals (from HOTO write bad docs)


> hmm, on Sun, Nov 27, 2005 at 11:03:19PM -0500, Nick Holland said that
>> You can do what you want, but your work will be ignored.
>
> a beautiful attitude.  i hope the project won't acquire it also.
> because even though we are the lowest life form, the users of
> this system, we also contribute back as much as we can, and
> actually make this system better.
> and of course, we pay Theo's bills you like it or not.
>
>
> anyway did i say something else?  feel free to ignore it.
>
> i will submit at least one, even if ignored.  because i care.
> and because as a poster before me beautifully pointed out
> "Be as politics-free as possible; solutions should be decided on the
> basis of technical merit."
>
> and if Theo doesn't know what's good html, he should ask
> someone in his core team who does, because he's a kernel
> hacker and nobody expects him to know that.
>
> and sorry Nick, but i think it shouldn't be you.
> your opposition to anything new is a sad contradiction
> to the "openbsd way".
>
>
>> OpenBSD is NOT a committee-run OS project.
>
> <snip the rest of Nick politics>
>
> i have been here for quite some time now Nick, you don't
> have to explain to me how the project is run.
> as if i didn't know.
>
>
>> If or when Theo decides the web site should be restructured, it will be
>> restructured.  If/when that happens, I would be very surprised if
>> something other than one of two things were to happen:
>>   1) Theo rebuilds it and says, "here's the new design".
>>   2) Theo hires/selects ONE PERSON to redesign it, and looks at the
>> result and says, "here is the new design" (or rips someone's head off).
>
> why do you speak for him?  you suddenly became his spokesperson?
>
> and if this is the way to do it, then ASK that one person to do it
> and send it to misc@ for comments (as you said in your decalogue
> which started all this)
>
>> Committee design is NOT what we are about.  You don't see contests for
>> CD designs or release themes.
>
> exactly, damn it!  the cd's can be nice and the page not?
> where is the logics?  why doesn't Theo just spit out the
> cd's with the same ascii art cover and sleeve every year?
>
> because DESIGN MATTERS.  you just blew your argument.
> now go and compare the cd covers with the site please.
>
>
>
>> Contrary to what some people think, we are not a web-design company.
>
> trying to make me ridiculous again?  you think i think openbsd is
> a web-design company?  again, this extremism on this list, one
> can breathe it.  you used be much humbler a couple of years ago.
>
>
>> problem occupying my time.  BTW: quality of work will be judged on
>> content, not "style".
>
> BTW. quality of work will be judged on content AND style.
> one does not exclude the other?
>
>
> and who said the dev's should do it? they can code.
> that doesn't mean they can do everything else included.
>
>
> the fact that YOU cannot make the pages look better does not
> mean someone else shouldn't be given a shot.
>
>
> or as i said, at least make them f#$%^ validate.
> i will send the patches at least for this feel free to ignore
> them again.
>
> because as you are now Theo's spokesperson, then you might know
> what he thinks about standards in general: yeah, break them all.
>
> -f
> --
> i'll give you a definite maybe.

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Re: openbsd web site design proposals (from HOTO write bad docs)

frantisek holop
hmm, on Mon, Nov 28, 2005 at 11:52:27AM +0200, John G. Gavrilitsa said that
> Aaa.. Propose your work, no matter alfa/beta...
> for everybody's viewing pleasure

i will, i will.  hopefully others as well.
we all know the mantra here.  shut up and so on.

just need some time,  i did not except this thread
to escalate like this.  i know empty words do nothing.

at least it's out in the open that some people would
welcome something else and not everybody agrees with
the way Nick's doing the pages (not content-wise of course)


god, i miss the polls on undeadly.

-f
--
man is the only animal that blushes.  or needs to.

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Re: openbsd web site design proposals (from HOTO write bad docs)

Simon Morgan
In reply to this post by frantisek holop
frantisek holop <minusf <at> obiit.org> writes:
> a beautiful attitude.  i hope the project won't acquire it also.

Ignoring idiots or (if they're lucky) telling them where to go
has been the attitude since the beginning.

> and sorry Nick, but i think it shouldn't be you.
> your opposition to anything new is a sad contradiction
> to the "openbsd way".

A random whiny user telling the maintainer of the OpenBSD website
that his policy about it contradicts the "OpenBSD way". That just
about sums up this entire discussion. Idiot.

> and who said the dev's should do it? they can code.
> that doesn't mean they can do everything else included.  

I don't see anything from you or any of the other whiners. Do
you think that if you whine about it long enough fairies will
come and do it?

> the fact that YOU cannot make the pages look better does not
> mean someone else shouldn't be given a shot.

Who says he can't? He said he won't.

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Re: openbsd web site design proposals (from HOTO write bad docs)

Marcin Wilk
In reply to this post by frantisek holop
Current website is veeeery useful.
Useful don't have to be nice.
 From my poin of view it shows how OpenBSD is working. Maybe design
isn't  the most nice, but inside there is best documentation ever.
The same is with OS itself. It's not the most nice OS (no flowers on
letter, no clouds & angels on the KDE icons) but the power of source
make it the most stable & secure OS around. So if website present how
OS is.. Then it should not be changed.

At 11:06 2005-11-28, you wrote:

>hmm, on Mon, Nov 28, 2005 at 11:52:27AM +0200, John G. Gavrilitsa said that
> > Aaa.. Propose your work, no matter alfa/beta...
> > for everybody's viewing pleasure
>
>i will, i will.  hopefully others as well.
>we all know the mantra here.  shut up and so on.
>
>just need some time,  i did not except this thread
>to escalate like this.  i know empty words do nothing.
>
>at least it's out in the open that some people would
>welcome something else and not everybody agrees with
>the way Nick's doing the pages (not content-wise of course)
>
>
>god, i miss the polls on undeadly.
>
>-f
>--
>man is the only animal that blushes.  or needs to.

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Re: openbsd web site design proposals (from HOTO write bad docs)

Marcin Wilk
In reply to this post by frantisek holop
If someone care the layout of book instead the content, he shouldn't read it.
If someone care  the layout of OpenBSD website more than content, he
should change OS, & use some other, that got nice website.

At 12:20 2005-11-28, you wrote:

>hmm, on Mon, Nov 28, 2005 at 12:15:30PM +0100, Marcin Wilk said that
> > Current website is veeeery useful.
> > Useful don't have to be nice.
> > From my poin of view it shows how OpenBSD is working. Maybe design
> > isn't  the most nice, but inside there is best documentation ever.
> > The same is with OS itself. It's not the most nice OS (no flowers on
> > letter, no clouds & angels on the KDE icons) but the power of source
> > make it the most stable & secure OS around. So if website present how
> > OS is.. Then it should not be changed.
>
>
>but nobody talks about the content.  the content is excellent!
>would it be a sin to make it a little more pleasing to the eye?
>
>a book can be very good inside, but if the form is disturbing
>doesn't that make the reading experience weaker maybe
>even nerving?
>
>-f
>--
>dyslexics of the world: untie!

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Re: openbsd web site design proposals (from HOTO write bad docs)

Kenneth R Westerback
In reply to this post by J Moore
On Mon, Nov 28, 2005 at 12:33:49AM -0600, J Moore wrote:
> Why don't you cut the guy some slack - or at least shut your yap on this
> (puh-l-e-e-e-ze)? I don't see *any* of what you're claiming to be
> OpenBSD policy stated on the website. In fact I see a statement
> (somewhat) to the contrary:
>
> Be as politics-free as possible; solutions should be decided on the
> basis of technical merit.

Refers to the products of the project, of which the website is not
one. Nick has certainly captured what I think is the consensus of
the developer community. At least those who have been forced by the
noise to think about it.

>
> And if it's the one-man show you claim, why don't you let "the man"
> speak for himself? Or if you've been hired as the "official OpenBSD
> bitch", please - let us know.
>

As far as I can recall Theo has already commented once that the
website is not going to be redesigned in the forseeable future since
it is accomplishing its purposes as laid out by Nick. I doubt that
this topic is of sufficient interest to generate multiple comments.

.... Ken

> Jay
>
>
>
> On Sun, Nov 27, 2005 at 11:03:19PM -0500, the unit calling itself Nick Holland wrote:
> > frantisek holop wrote:
> > > dear list,
> > >
> > > before Theo brings up the (very) valid point of haven't
> > > been able to see any proposed design (even if rejected
> > > without looking) i would like to ask fellow designers
> > > or anyone who feels like to make an openbsd site design
> > > proposal just to show that actually there is interest
> > > in making the old pages retire after so many years of
> > > faithful serving.
> > >
> > > i am willing to host all the participants' efforts
> > > as a central "repository", or even only links
> > > to these pages.
> > >
> > > make some noise people, so we can say at least we tried.
> > >
> > > -f
> >
> > Like FreeBSD and NetBSD's "redesign our web site" contest.  Riiight..
> >
> > No.
> > We've spent way too much time laughing at those already (both the
> > process and the results).
> >
> > You can do what you want, but your work will be ignored.
> >
> > OpenBSD is NOT a committee-run OS project.
> > I think a lot of people miss this.  If there is ONE THING that
> > distinguishes OpenBSD from most other OSs out there, it is the fact that
> > OpenBSD is the work of a small group of people following the lead of
> > *one* person.  There is no question of direction, there is no "five
> > different products to accomplish same task, because we don't have the
> > guts to make a decision and endorse just one".
> >
> > As has been pointed out repeatedly, OpenBSD developers develop the OS
> > for their own use.  If your uses are compatible with the developer's
> > goals, OpenBSD is for you.  If not, you quickly realize not to waste
> > your time.  You don't see OpenBSD flopping around without a clear
> > direction.  You don't end up wondering, "will they change directions to
> > meet my goals, or will they abandon my goals?".
> >
> > If or when Theo decides the web site should be restructured, it will be
> > restructured.  If/when that happens, I would be very surprised if
> > something other than one of two things were to happen:
> >   1) Theo rebuilds it and says, "here's the new design".
> >   2) Theo hires/selects ONE PERSON to redesign it, and looks at the
> > result and says, "here is the new design" (or rips someone's head off).
> >
> > Committee design is NOT what we are about.  You don't see contests for
> > CD designs or release themes.
> >
> > Contrary to what some people think, we are not a web-design company.
> > Our product is not a super-cool website.  Our product is an OS we need
> > and use.  The website is just an information source about the product,
> > maintained by software developers and documenters.  When I write
> > material to help other people with similar interests use OpenBSD, I'm
> > not worried about if it uses the features of the best of the current
> > crop of browsers, I want to get the information across effectively.  I
> > measure my success based on the information conveyed, not how pretty it
> > is.  I have reason to believe I do a half-way decent job at this.  If
> > someone wishes to prove they can do a better job, go for it, I'm sure
> > Theo would love to have a more productive person doing what I do (and
> > what he would like me to do that I'll never have time for).  I won't
> > fight it.  I have not been bored in well over 20 years, I have NO
> > problem occupying my time.  BTW: quality of work will be judged on
> > content, not "style".
> >
> > Nick.

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Re: openbsd web site design proposals (from HOTO write bad docs)

J Moore
On Mon, Nov 28, 2005 at 08:24:03AM -0500, the unit calling itself Kenneth R Westerback wrote:

> >
> > And if it's the one-man show you claim, why don't you let "the man"
> > speak for himself? Or if you've been hired as the "official OpenBSD
> > bitch", please - let us know.
> >
>
> As far as I can recall Theo has already commented once that the
> website is not going to be redesigned in the forseeable future since
> it is accomplishing its purposes as laid out by Nick. I doubt that
> this topic is of sufficient interest to generate multiple comments.

Well that's fine - and I assume Nick knows this? So why do you suppose
he felt it necessary to jump down the guy's throat? Why not just let it
go? That way, Nick could spend his time brushing up on web design
instead of wasting it in this fashion?

Jay

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Re: openbsd web site design proposals (from HOTO write bad docs)

fuzzyping
On Nov 28, 2005, at 9:37 AM, J Moore wrote:

> On Mon, Nov 28, 2005 at 08:24:03AM -0500, the unit calling itself  
> Kenneth R Westerback wrote:
>>>
>>> And if it's the one-man show you claim, why don't you let "the man"
>>> speak for himself? Or if you've been hired as the "official OpenBSD
>>> bitch", please - let us know.
>>
>> As far as I can recall Theo has already commented once that the
>> website is not going to be redesigned in the forseeable future since
>> it is accomplishing its purposes as laid out by Nick. I doubt that
>> this topic is of sufficient interest to generate multiple comments.
>
> Well that's fine - and I assume Nick knows this? So why do you suppose
> he felt it necessary to jump down the guy's throat? Why not just  
> let it
> go? That way, Nick could spend his time brushing up on web design
> instead of wasting it in this fashion?

I assume it's because Nick is a VOLUNTEER that spends an unlimited  
amount of time keeping the site updated with CONTENT.  He knows that  
no matter what design changes he wishes to make will undoubtedly be  
shot down by Theo since the site is already FUNCTIONAL and meets the  
goals of the project.

I don't speak for Nick, but I imagine he probably feels a bit  
unappreciated when folks feel like nitpicking his "design", when that  
is probably not his job (certainly not his focus) in the first  
place.  If you want to bitch about the design, take it to the  
ultimate arbitrator--  Theo, preferably OFFLIST.

--
Jason Dixon
DixonGroup Consulting
http://www.dixongroup.net

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Re: openbsd web site design proposals (from HOTO write bad docs)

J Moore
In reply to this post by STeve Andre'
On Mon, Nov 28, 2005 at 01:57:57AM -0500, the unit calling itself STeve Andre' wrote:

> > Why don't you cut the guy some slack - or at least shut your yap on this
> > (puh-l-e-e-e-ze)? I don't see *any* of what you're claiming to be
> > OpenBSD policy stated on the website. In fact I see a statement
> > (somewhat) to the contrary:
> >
> > Be as politics-free as possible; solutions should be decided on the
> > basis of technical merit.
> >
> > And if it's the one-man show you claim, why don't you let "the man"
> > speak for himself? Or if you've been hired as the "official OpenBSD
> > bitch", please - let us know.
> >
> > Jay
>
> Jay, I would think that the lack of response from Theo should say
> something.
>
> I agree with Nick; functionality over form *any* day.  The current
> web site is quite reasonable I think.  Could it be improved?
> Probably.  But the site is still very good, and I for one would
> rather see the project move along the way it has been.

You know Steve, I tend to agree with you. I've never had any problems
with the website.

> I know the person who posted the original question has the best
> of intentions, but I don't think he quite understands how things
> work.  And no, there probably isn't a statement of exactly how
> things work.  Watching the mailing lists is the way to learn.  I
> think that *is* stated on the site.

I think he did, too. That's why I don't understand Nick insulting the
guy, and bashing his ideas. Clearly Nick's opinions don't mesh, but why
would he pursue this cross-thread vendetta? The only result of this sort
of behavior is that a potential contributor is alienated.

Seems what someone would learn from watching the mailing lists and
reading these acrimonious threads is that outsiders are not welcome, and
new ideas are not tolerated. This is illogical: if different ideas are
unwelcome, and not to be tolerated, then why isn't this list taken
off-line?

Frankly, sometimes this list reads more like one of a backwoods
religious cult than a computer operating system.

Jay

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Re: openbsd web site design proposals (from HOTO write bad docs)

J Moore
In reply to this post by fuzzyping
On Mon, Nov 28, 2005 at 09:54:34AM -0500, the unit calling itself Jason Dixon wrote:

> I don't speak for Nick, but I imagine he probably feels a bit  
> unappreciated when folks feel like nitpicking his "design", when that  
> is probably not his job (certainly not his focus) in the first  
> place.  If you want to bitch about the design, take it to the  
> ultimate arbitrator--  Theo, preferably OFFLIST.
 
Where did you get the idea that *I* wanted to bitch about the design? If
you'll re-read my post a bit more carefully, I don't think you'll find
anywhere that I said anything derogatory about the current website.

PRBP,
Jay

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Re: openbsd web site design proposals (from HOTO write bad docs)

J.C. Roberts-2
In reply to this post by J Moore
On Mon, 28 Nov 2005 08:37:56 -0600, J Moore <[hidden email]> wrote:

>On Mon, Nov 28, 2005 at 08:24:03AM -0500, the unit calling itself Kenneth R Westerback wrote:
>> >
>> > And if it's the one-man show you claim, why don't you let "the man"
>> > speak for himself? Or if you've been hired as the "official OpenBSD
>> > bitch", please - let us know.
>> >
>>
>> As far as I can recall Theo has already commented once that the
>> website is not going to be redesigned in the forseeable future since
>> it is accomplishing its purposes as laid out by Nick. I doubt that
>> this topic is of sufficient interest to generate multiple comments.
>
>Well that's fine - and I assume Nick knows this? So why do you suppose
>he felt it necessary to jump down the guy's throat? Why not just let it
>go? That way, Nick could spend his time brushing up on web design
>instead of wasting it in this fashion?
>

Jay,

The answers to your questions are posted all over this list, namely,
this "frantisek" character is very intentionally trolling up a storm and
he's done it before in the past. You failed to notice what is really
going on around you and you just reacted without thinking. None the
less, you owe Nick an apology. Your "official OpenBSD bitch" comment was
not only totally uninformed, it was way out of line.

Who are you to question or judge how Nick decides to spend his time?
It's obvious you don't bother reading the other stuff around here, so
why do you "waste" your time reading Nicks' posts and insulting him for
telling you the truth?

JCR

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Re: openbsd web site design proposals (from HOTO write bad docs)

popejeremy
In reply to this post by fuzzyping
On 11/28/05, Jason Dixon <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I assume it's because Nick is a VOLUNTEER that spends an unlimited
> amount of time keeping the site updated with CONTENT.  He knows that
> no matter what design changes he wishes to make will undoubtedly be
> shot down by Theo since the site is already FUNCTIONAL and meets the
> goals of the project.



Well, simply as a matter of fact, it's actually untrue that the site is
functional. Functional for you? Maybe. For everyone? Not exactly.

Check this out:

http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.openbsd.org&charset=%28det
ect+automatically%29&

There are 5 errors on the main page alone. That means that no matter how
useful the content on the website is, the code breaks down for a lot of
people. Standards are important. Where HTML is concerned, they're doubly so,
because there are so many different clients (browsers) being used by so many
different kinds of people.

http://www.webstandards.org/about/
http://www.zeldman.com/dwws/

I'm really underwhelmed by comments like "Why don't you cut the guy some
slack" and "I don't speak for Nick, but I imagine he probably feels a
unappreciated when folks feel like nitpicking his "design""

Excusing errors in the interests of not hurting someone's feelings is a
great way to end up with a third-rate product.

The website is hacky, invalid, and broken. Not to mention the fact that most
people think it's ugly. If that hurts someone's feelings then I'm sorry, but
it does no one any favors to ignore errors and broken code.

If no one is in charge of making sure that the site is good, then someone
should be in charge of that.

- Jeremy

--
> Jason Dixon
> DixonGroup Consulting
> http://www.dixongroup.net

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Re: openbsd web site design proposals (from HOTO write bad docs)

J.C. Roberts-2
In reply to this post by fuzzyping
On Mon, 28 Nov 2005 09:54:34 -0500, Jason Dixon <[hidden email]>
wrote:

>If you want to bitch about the design, take it to the  
>ultimate arbitrator--  Theo, preferably OFFLIST.

Theo is neither a trash compactor nor a baby sitter. He's just a talent
guy who is kind enough to share his work and knowledge with others.
Redirecting all the whinny, know-it-all trash from this list to Theo is
essentially *asking* Theo to do *even* *more* for the project than he
already does.

If such trash has to happen, I'd rather see the trash get tossed on this
list so others can help with disposing of it rather than dumping it all
on one guy who is already trying to do far too much.

Jason, other than the oversight above, you and I probably agree on most
stuff around here. :-)

Kind Regards,
JCR

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Re: openbsd web site design proposals (from HOTO write bad docs)

J.C. Roberts-2
In reply to this post by popejeremy
On Mon, 28 Nov 2005 10:29:43 -0500, Jeremy David
<[hidden email]> wrote:

>There are 5 errors on the main page alone. That means that no matter how
>useful the content on the website is, the code breaks down for a lot of
>people. Standards are important. Where HTML is concerned, they're doubly so,
>because there are so many different clients (browsers) being used by so many
>different kinds of people.

Jeremy,

I encourage you to do a bit more research before posting something like
the above. Did you really think the compliance errors were never noticed
before you pointed them out?

Yes, you are right that the site is not perfectly W3C standards
compliant. The point you missed is the overwhelming majority of clients
(browsers) are *ALSO* not compliant with the standards. The supposed
"errors" you pointed out are nothing more than work-arounds for
non-compliant browsers. Contrary to your claims, those supposed "errors"
do not "break" anything, instead they actually _FIX_ problems in buggy
browsers.

Kind Regards,
JCR

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