lynx is gone?

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Re: lynx is gone?

Marc Espie-2
On Thu, Mar 05, 2015 at 06:11:31PM +0100, Ingo Schwarze wrote:
> By the way, lynx(1) removal doesn't really hurt that much.
> Rotten code that will hurt more when it will finally be deleted
> includes, for example, the sqlite3(1) library and file(1).

re: sqlite, the code doesn't follow our guidelines, but it's not that
badly rotten.  I've played with it a bit, and as long as you use it for
what it's meant (sql), it's pretty sturdy.

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Re: lynx is gone?

Stefan Sperling-5
On Thu, Mar 05, 2015 at 06:52:20PM +0100, Marc Espie wrote:
> On Thu, Mar 05, 2015 at 06:11:31PM +0100, Ingo Schwarze wrote:
> > By the way, lynx(1) removal doesn't really hurt that much.
> > Rotten code that will hurt more when it will finally be deleted
> > includes, for example, the sqlite3(1) library and file(1).
>
> re: sqlite, the code doesn't follow our guidelines, but it's not that
> badly rotten.  I've played with it a bit, and as long as you use it for
> what it's meant (sql), it's pretty sturdy.

I concur. And the sqlite devs are also reacting quickly to bug reports.
The very few times new sqlite releases caused a regression in SVN the
problem was fixed promptly.
http://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.db.sqlite.general/66248
http://www.sqlite.org/src/info/4c86b126f2

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Re: lynx is gone?

Naim, Halim.
In reply to this post by Paolo Aglialoro
> $ pdftohtml -stdout -i manual.pdf | lynx -stdin

I do that all the time. ;-)

I see no problem with it being removed from base though. Its just a pkg_add
away.

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Re: lynx is gone?

Giancarlo Razzolini-3
In reply to this post by Paolo Aglialoro
On 05-03-2015 13:20, Paolo Aglialoro wrote:
> I perfectly agree with you, both on fun and curiosity.
>
> Nevertheless, not all the times we have got time enough "to have fun
> netcatting servers". More than often u just have to go straight to the
> point.

But before you can get to the point, someone (hopefully) looked under
the hood for you.

>  Btw, try these with (net)cat:
>
> $ lynx saveddocument.html
> $ pdftohtml -stdout -i manual.pdf | lynx -stdin

As I mentioned, "for the task the OP mentioned". Of course netcat does
not replace a browser.

> Actually it does on a user viewpoint: a server daemon is up 24/7 while a
> client is activated by the user. For the server, insecurity comes mainly
> from its own flaws, for the client danger does not mainly come from the
> tool itself (unless it's a totally hopeless sw) but from the *potentially*
> silly utilization which is done by the user.

You forget that programs bring along libraries and other potentially
nasty stuff when ran. lynx had support for a lot of protocols besides
http. Take a look at the tech@ thread from last year that prompted it's
removal.

> So it looks like that, till some months ago, everybody here was on the
> wrong OS and risking their lives, as lynx was in base! But I have never
> read here about anybody who had his system compromised because of poor
> lynx. So, right now, this deletion reflects more a "what if" worry than a
> real threat, i.e. lynx <> shellshock.

Many of OpenBSD security features are based on " what if". That does not
mean that in the future, the "what if", can't become a real threat. The
mentality of the OpenBSD devs is in the right place. They try hard to
make a OS that try to don't allow you to shoot yourself in the face.
Even if that means removing software that might (or not) pose a threat
to you in any point in the future.

Cheers,
Giancarlo Razzolini

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Re: lynx is gone?

Ted Unangst-6
In reply to this post by Paolo Aglialoro
Paolo Aglialoro wrote:

> So it looks like that, till some months ago, everybody here was on the
> wrong OS and risking their lives, as lynx was in base! But I have never

It's not like this wasn't discussed previously. At length.

http://marc.info/?t=140504829500002&r=1&w=2

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Re: lynx is gone?

Jan Stary
In reply to this post by Ingo Schwarze
Ingo,

On Mar 05 18:11:31, [hidden email] wrote:
> By the way, lynx(1) removal doesn't really hurt that much.
> Rotten code that will hurt more when it will finally be deleted
> includes, for example, the sqlite3(1) library and file(1).

can you please elaborate on what's rotten in sqlite?

        Jan

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Re: lynx is gone?

Theo de Raadt
In reply to this post by Bob Eby-2
>Ingo,
>
>On Mar 05 18:11:31, [hidden email] wrote:
>> By the way, lynx(1) removal doesn't really hurt that much.
>> Rotten code that will hurt more when it will finally be deleted
>> includes, for example, the sqlite3(1) library and file(1).
>
>can you please elaborate on what's rotten in sqlite?

Jan, can you please start from the other end, and provide evidence
that the code is of the highest possible quality?

Thank you.

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Re: lynx is gone?

Theo de Raadt
In reply to this post by Bob Eby-2
>So it looks like that, till some months ago, everybody here was on the
>wrong OS and risking their lives, as lynx was in base!

Such hyperbole!  Such drama!

Impressive.

If you don't like our software, there are other options out there for
you to use.  In the end, it is our software, and we get to make our own
choices.

That is fair.  People who get to make choices, tend to care, and tend to
try to make things better for themselves and everyone, according to a
narrow definition, but there you have it.  No hyperbole or drama needed.

You can run something else, Sir.

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Re: lynx is gone?

Theo de Raadt
In reply to this post by Bob Eby-2
        On Thu, Mar 05, 2015 at 06:52:20PM +0100, Marc Espie wrote:
> > On Thu, Mar 05, 2015 at 06:11:31PM +0100, Ingo Schwarze wrote:
> > > By the way, lynx(1) removal doesn't really hurt that much.
> > > Rotten code that will hurt more when it will finally be deleted
> > > includes, for example, the sqlite3(1) library and file(1).
> >
> > re: sqlite, the code doesn't follow our guidelines, but it's not that
> > badly rotten.  I've played with it a bit, and as long as you use it for
> > what it's meant (sql), it's pretty sturdy.

> I concur. And the sqlite devs are also reacting quickly to bug reports.
> The very few times new sqlite releases caused a regression in SVN the
> problem was fixed promptly.
> http://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.db.sqlite.general/66248
> http://www.sqlite.org/src/info/4c86b126f2

Reactive is not the same as proactive.

The code uses risk-prone idioms.

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Re: lynx is gone?

Raf Czlonka-2
In reply to this post by Theo de Raadt
On Thu, Mar 05, 2015 at 08:24:47PM GMT, Theo de Raadt wrote:

> >Ingo,
> >
> >On Mar 05 18:11:31, [hidden email] wrote:
> >> By the way, lynx(1) removal doesn't really hurt that much.
> >> Rotten code that will hurt more when it will finally be deleted
> >> includes, for example, the sqlite3(1) library and file(1).
> >
> >can you please elaborate on what's rotten in sqlite?
>
> Jan, can you please start from the other end, and provide evidence
> that the code is of the highest possible quality?

Hi Theo,

Based on the above, Jan hadn't made any such claims so no evidence is
required. He only asked Ingo to support *his* claim - more info, for
mere reference, if nothing else, would be greatly appreciated. :^)

Cheers,

Raf

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Re: lynx is gone?

Mihai Popescu-3
In reply to this post by Bob Eby-2
> It's not like this wasn't discussed previously. At length.
> http://marc.info/?t=140504829500002&r=1&w=2

Wow! And I thought the whole fun is on misc@ only. It looks like some
folks are ready to quit using and OS because of some software location
(base or packages).
The irony is lynx is also an extinct animal called "smile" in my country.

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Re: lynx is gone?

Paolo Aglialoro
In reply to this post by Theo de Raadt
Dear Theo,

I respect you as a person and I respect your work.

This said, I can also tell you that, after a few years reading misc@, there
is still one thing that I do not understand about your "colourful" answers
to several mails.

Not all the people who run obsd can, for various personal reasons of their
own, contribute as a coder. But they still can contribute as users,
reporting problems or making suggestions. This does not necessarily mean
they "order" you what to do or not to do, don't take it personally. They
just love to run obsd, so they try to do their best. My grandpa taught me
that when people don't tell you things it's because they just don't care
anymore.

With their detailed answers, for instance, Stuart, Giancarlo and Ingo
showed attention to my problem as a user, analyzing things just on a
logical viewpoint. I perfectly accept their polite way of answering.

Here nobody was making making a wishlist for obsd like "I want zfs, xfs,
ext4, pf multicore, etc.". The point is that here, often, the moment you
got used to a tool, the day after it's gone/modified. This creates
frustration in the average user, like me.

Of course we're still a pkg_add away but, hey, isn't denying to consider
that most people will keep using that tool a contradiction? Yes, base will
be pure and safe, but at the same time it will diminish functionality,
depending more and more from packages.

This said, this is your OS, delete everything you like!

Just be respectful, please.

Il 05/mar/2015 21:43 "Theo de Raadt" <[hidden email]> ha scritto:

>
> >So it looks like that, till some months ago, everybody here was on the
> >wrong OS and risking their lives, as lynx was in base!
>
> Such hyperbole!  Such drama!
>
> Impressive.
>
> If you don't like our software, there are other options out there for
> you to use.  In the end, it is our software, and we get to make our own
> choices.
>
> That is fair.  People who get to make choices, tend to care, and tend to
> try to make things better for themselves and everyone, according to a
> narrow definition, but there you have it.  No hyperbole or drama needed.
>
> You can run something else, Sir.

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Re: lynx is gone?

Theo de Raadt
In reply to this post by Bob Eby-2
>On Thu, Mar 05, 2015 at 08:24:47PM GMT, Theo de Raadt wrote:
>> >Ingo,
>> >
>> >On Mar 05 18:11:31, [hidden email] wrote:
>> >> By the way, lynx(1) removal doesn't really hurt that much.
>> >> Rotten code that will hurt more when it will finally be deleted
>> >> includes, for example, the sqlite3(1) library and file(1).
>> >
>> >can you please elaborate on what's rotten in sqlite?
>>
>> Jan, can you please start from the other end, and provide evidence
>> that the code is of the highest possible quality?
>
>Hi Theo,
>
>Based on the above, Jan hadn't made any such claims so no evidence is
>required. He only asked Ingo to support *his* claim - more info, for
>mere reference, if nothing else, would be greatly appreciated. :^)

Please run something else.  You'll be happier.  Really.  You don't
need code-fussy people around you.

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Re: lynx is gone?

Gene-46
In reply to this post by Paolo Aglialoro
On Thu, Mar 5, 2015 at 5:24 PM, Paolo Aglialoro <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Dear Theo,
>
> I respect you as a person and I respect your work.
>
> This said, I can also tell you that, after a few years reading misc@,
> there
> is still one thing that I do not understand about your "colourful" answers
> to several mails.
>
> Not all the people who run obsd can, for various personal reasons of their
> own, contribute as a coder. But they still can contribute as users,
> reporting problems or making suggestions. This does not necessarily mean
> they "order" you what to do or not to do, don't take it personally. They
> just love to run obsd, so they try to do their best. My grandpa taught me
> that when people don't tell you things it's because they just don't care
> anymore.
>
> With their detailed answers, for instance, Stuart, Giancarlo and Ingo
> showed attention to my problem as a user, analyzing things just on a
> logical viewpoint. I perfectly accept their polite way of answering.
>
> Here nobody was making making a wishlist for obsd like "I want zfs, xfs,
> ext4, pf multicore, etc.". The point is that here, often, the moment you
> got used to a tool, the day after it's gone/modified. This creates
> frustration in the average user, like me.
>

Uhm, excuse me, I definitely want all of those things.

If I don't get them right now I'll stomp my feet and cry until I do!


> Of course we're still a pkg_add away but, hey, isn't denying to consider
> that most people will keep using that tool a contradiction? Yes, base will
> be pure and safe, but at the same time it will diminish functionality,
> depending more and more from packages.
>
> This said, this is your OS, delete everything you like!
>
> Just be respectful, please.
>

This discussion started off with disrespect to the project's developers and
continued throughout much of it.

Respect is something to be earned, don't expect to get it for free.

-Gene


>
> Il 05/mar/2015 21:43 "Theo de Raadt" <[hidden email]> ha scritto:
> >
> > >So it looks like that, till some months ago, everybody here was on the
> > >wrong OS and risking their lives, as lynx was in base!
> >
> > Such hyperbole!  Such drama!
> >
> > Impressive.
> >
> > If you don't like our software, there are other options out there for
> > you to use.  In the end, it is our software, and we get to make our own
> > choices.
> >
> > That is fair.  People who get to make choices, tend to care, and tend to
> > try to make things better for themselves and everyone, according to a
> > narrow definition, but there you have it.  No hyperbole or drama needed.
> >
> > You can run something else, Sir.

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Re: lynx is gone?

Theo de Raadt
In reply to this post by Bob Eby-2
>> It's not like this wasn't discussed previously. At length.
>> http://marc.info/?t=140504829500002&r=1&w=2
>
>Wow! And I thought the whole fun is on misc@ only. It looks like some
>folks are ready to quit using and OS because of some software location
>(base or packages).
>The irony is lynx is also an extinct animal called "smile" in my country.

Businesses fire their worst customers all the time, to allow the
business to focus on doing what it does best without adhering to
models used in the past to get ahead.

Maybe the removal of lynx is not about the low quality of the software
and general lack of maintainance moving it forward.

Maybe it more of a conspiracy against our worst users, those ready to
accept bad software as a part of the better whole.

Never know.  OpenBSD is not generally known as an exposed democracy.

If people want an exposed democracy with different warts, Debian seems
to be such a thing.  Choose your warts carefully.

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Re: lynx is gone?

Theo de Raadt
In reply to this post by Bob Eby-2
>Dear Theo,
>
>I respect you as a person and I respect your work.
>
>This said, I can also tell you that, after a few years reading misc@, there
>is still one thing that I do not understand about your "colourful" answers
>to several mails.
>
>Not all the people who run obsd can, for various personal reasons of their
>own, contribute as a coder. But they still can contribute as users,
>reporting problems or making suggestions. This does not necessarily mean
>they "order" you what to do or not to do, don't take it personally. They
>just love to run obsd, so they try to do their best. My grandpa taught me
>that when people don't tell you things it's because they just don't care
>anymore.
>
>With their detailed answers, for instance, Stuart, Giancarlo and Ingo
>showed attention to my problem as a user, analyzing things just on a
>logical viewpoint. I perfectly accept their polite way of answering.
>
>Here nobody was making making a wishlist for obsd like "I want zfs, xfs,
>ext4, pf multicore, etc.". The point is that here, often, the moment you
>got used to a tool, the day after it's gone/modified. This creates
>frustration in the average user, like me.
>
>Of course we're still a pkg_add away but, hey, isn't denying to consider
>that most people will keep using that tool a contradiction? Yes, base will
>be pure and safe, but at the same time it will diminish functionality,
>depending more and more from packages.
>
>This said, this is your OS, delete everything you like!
>
>Just be respectful, please.

Thank you for your detailed mail.

It has led me to revisit my viewpoints.

We will be adding Firefox to the base distribution.  It is time
to stop this focus on a high quality base, and just incorporate
what people want, even if it is harder then for developers to use
existing methods to discern good from crap.

ps. If you still want the old world, it is still there.  There are
many software legacy software distributions that don't change as fast.
Like Linux or FreeBSD.

pps.  If that does not agree with you, you should feel lucky because a
few projects choose to forge ahead and see where future change may get
us (in the future, as in, not so much Xenix compat anymore)

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Re: lynx is gone?

bofh-6
In reply to this post by Theo de Raadt
On Thu, Mar 5, 2015 at 9:32 PM, Theo de Raadt <[hidden email]>
wrote:

>
> Never know.  OpenBSD is not generally known as an exposed democracy.
>

This made me chuckle out loud :)


--
http://www.glumbert.com/media/shift
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tGvHNNOLnCk
"This officer's men seem to follow him merely out of idle curiosity."  --
Sandhurst officer cadet evaluation.
"Securing an environment of Windows platforms from abuse - external or
internal - is akin to trying to install sprinklers in a fireworks factory
where smoking on the job is permitted."  -- Gene Spafford
learn french:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=30v_g83VHK4

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Re: lynx is gone?

Theo de Raadt
In reply to this post by Bob Eby-2
>On Thu, Mar 5, 2015 at 9:32 PM, Theo de Raadt <[hidden email]>
>wrote:
>
>>
>> Never know.  OpenBSD is not generally known as an exposed democracy.
>>
>
>This made me chuckle out loud :)

Well, it makes me laugh out loud too.

We are succesfully making good software, using a scheme called
undemocratic.

How un-American of us.

Laughing again?  You must be a terrorist.

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Re: lynx is gone?

bofh-6
On Thu, Mar 5, 2015 at 10:03 PM, Theo de Raadt <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> >On Thu, Mar 5, 2015 at 9:32 PM, Theo de Raadt <[hidden email]>
> >wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> Never know.  OpenBSD is not generally known as an exposed democracy.
> >>
> >
> >This made me chuckle out loud :)
>
> Well, it makes me laugh out loud too.
>
> We are succesfully making good software, using a scheme called
> undemocratic.
>
> How un-American of us.
>
> Laughing again?  You must be a terrorist.
>

*BWAHAHAHA*



--
http://www.glumbert.com/media/shift
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tGvHNNOLnCk
"This officer's men seem to follow him merely out of idle curiosity."  --
Sandhurst officer cadet evaluation.
"Securing an environment of Windows platforms from abuse - external or
internal - is akin to trying to install sprinklers in a fireworks factory
where smoking on the job is permitted."  -- Gene Spafford
learn french:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=30v_g83VHK4

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Re: lynx is gone?

Eric Furman-3
In reply to this post by Paolo Aglialoro
On Thu, Mar 5, 2015, at 08:24 PM, Paolo Aglialoro wrote:

> Dear Theo,
>
> I respect you as a person and I respect your work.
>
> This said, I can also tell you that, after a few years reading misc@,
> there
> is still one thing that I do not understand about your "colourful"
> answers
> to several mails.
>
> Not all the people who run obsd can, for various personal reasons of
> their
> own, contribute as a coder. But they still can contribute as users,
> reporting problems or making suggestions. This does not necessarily mean
> they "order" you what to do or not to do, don't take it personally. They
> just love to run obsd, so they try to do their best. My grandpa taught me
> that when people don't tell you things it's because they just don't care
> anymore.
>
> With their detailed answers, for instance, Stuart, Giancarlo and Ingo
> showed attention to my problem as a user, analyzing things just on a
> logical viewpoint. I perfectly accept their polite way of answering.
>
> Here nobody was making making a wishlist for obsd like "I want zfs, xfs,
> ext4, pf multicore, etc.". The point is that here, often, the moment you
> got used to a tool, the day after it's gone/modified. This creates
> frustration in the average user, like me.
>
> Of course we're still a pkg_add away but, hey, isn't denying to consider
> that most people will keep using that tool a contradiction? Yes, base
> will
> be pure and safe, but at the same time it will diminish functionality,
> depending more and more from packages.
>
> This said, this is your OS, delete everything you like!
>
> Just be respectful, please.
>
> Il 05/mar/2015 21:43 "Theo de Raadt" <[hidden email]> ha
> scritto:
> >
> > >So it looks like that, till some months ago, everybody here was on the
> > >wrong OS and risking their lives, as lynx was in base!
> >
> > Such hyperbole!  Such drama!
> >
> > Impressive.
> >
> > If you don't like our software, there are other options out there for
> > you to use.  In the end, it is our software, and we get to make our own
> > choices.
> >
> > That is fair.  People who get to make choices, tend to care, and tend to
> > try to make things better for themselves and everyone, according to a
> > narrow definition, but there you have it.  No hyperbole or drama needed.
> >
> > You can run something else, Sir.
>

How was Theo being disrespectful? I don't see it.
Compared to most of Theo's responses this was a love letter. :)

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