installing OpenBSD 4.9 to external USB harddisk: Disk does not boot

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installing OpenBSD 4.9 to external USB harddisk: Disk does not boot

Michael Treibton
Hi all,

i'm attempting to diagnose if there was a problem with installing
OpenBSD to an external USB hard disk or not.  The disk is a Western
Digital 2TB disk, should it matter.  Needless to say, the install went
fine on to the disk; all the sets were unpacked, and I rebooted the
machine as per the instructions at the end.  During install, I let the
installer auto partition the disk in question, and that ended up
creating a sensible layout that i could tell.

Yet, when i reboot the machine, and ask the BIOS to boot from the
external usb disk, eventually nothing happens, and my machine then
defaults to booting off my internal disk.  What could be causing this?
 i've had other operating systems on this external USB disk in the
past, so I know it's perfectly capable of being detected correctly by
the BIOS.

Since though I can't get at the disk in question, I am unsure what
information I can gather for you -- under Linux using "cfdisk", the
best information I can gather is the following:

    Number   Flags      Part Type   Filesystem        Label                Size
 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                       Pri/Ext     Free space                            0.00MB
      4     Bootable   Primary     sun-ufs                            2000396MB

And:

     Partition info
 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------

      Possible partition device: /dev/sdb4
                 Partition type: Primary

        Partition size in bytes: 2000396288512B
      Partition size in sectors: 3907024001s
       Portion of the hard disk: 100%

                Filesystem type: sun-ufs
                    System type: 0xa6
               System type name: OpenBSD

                       Position: 64s-3907024064s
       Start (cyl,heads,sector): 0,1,1
         End (cyl,heads,sector): 243200,254,62

                          Flags: boot

If there's a means of providing more information to help with this, please say.

TIA for any help.

Kindly,
Michael

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Re: installing OpenBSD 4.9 to external USB harddisk: Disk does not boot

Francois Pussault-2
hi, all,

This should be an hardware issue, I've used an usb external drive with
success. whith a dell A6 or A7 version of Dell bios, boot usb enabled, with a
(double-usb) eternal drive, using BSD4.2 filesystem.

so maybe you need a bios upgrade or a double-usb-drive to be able to boot or
to use BSD4.2 fs on / ?




> ----------------------------------------
> From: Michael Treibton <[hidden email]>
> Sent: Sun Aug 07 12:32:45 CEST 2011
> To: <[hidden email]>
> Subject: installing OpenBSD 4.9 to external USB harddisk: Disk does not
boot

>
>
> Hi all,
>
> i'm attempting to diagnose if there was a problem with installing
> OpenBSD to an external USB hard disk or not.  The disk is a Western
> Digital 2TB disk, should it matter.  Needless to say, the install went
> fine on to the disk; all the sets were unpacked, and I rebooted the
> machine as per the instructions at the end.  During install, I let the
> installer auto partition the disk in question, and that ended up
> creating a sensible layout that i could tell.
>
> Yet, when i reboot the machine, and ask the BIOS to boot from the
> external usb disk, eventually nothing happens, and my machine then
> defaults to booting off my internal disk.  What could be causing this?
>  i've had other operating systems on this external USB disk in the
> past, so I know it's perfectly capable of being detected correctly by
> the BIOS.
>
> Since though I can't get at the disk in question, I am unsure what
> information I can gather for you -- under Linux using "cfdisk", the
> best information I can gather is the following:
>
>     Number   Flags      Part Type   Filesystem        Label
Size
>
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
>                        Pri/Ext     Free space
0.00MB
>       4     Bootable   Primary     sun-ufs
2000396MB
>
> And:
>
>      Partition info
>
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-

>
>       Possible partition device: /dev/sdb4
>                  Partition type: Primary
>
>         Partition size in bytes: 2000396288512B
>       Partition size in sectors: 3907024001s
>        Portion of the hard disk: 100%
>
>                 Filesystem type: sun-ufs
>                     System type: 0xa6
>                System type name: OpenBSD
>
>                        Position: 64s-3907024064s
>        Start (cyl,heads,sector): 0,1,1
>          End (cyl,heads,sector): 243200,254,62
>
>                           Flags: boot
>
> If there's a means of providing more information to help with this, please
say.
>
> TIA for any help.
>
> Kindly,
> Michael
>


Cordialement
Francois Pussault
3701 - 8 rue Marcel Pagnol
31100 ToulouseB
FranceB
+33 6 17 230 820 B  +33 5 34 365 269
[hidden email]

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Re: installing OpenBSD 4.9 to external USB harddisk: Disk does not boot

Michael Treibton
hi,

On 7 August 2011 12:19, Francois Pussault <[hidden email]> wrote:
> hi, all,
>
> This should be an hardware issue, I've used an usb external drive with success. whith a dell A6 or A7 version of Dell bios, boot usb enabled, with a (double-usb) eternal drive, using BSD4.2 filesystem.
>
> so maybe you need a bios upgrade or a double-usb-drive to be able to boot or to use BSD4.2 fs on / ?

i'd agree with you if it wasn't for the fact that NetBSD has been on
this drive at some point, and has booted from it just fine,
unfortunately only OpenBSD seems to suffer being able to work off this
drive.

I'm wondering if it's down to how the other BSDs partition the disk?
it's entirely possible other OSes gave a small partition for /boot
which the bios could pick up on?  that being the case, is that easy to
do at install time?  i'll have to read the docs i suppose, assuming
its even a good idea.

But bios upgrade?  No, i really can't see how that's correct given
evidence to the contrary.

Thanks,

Michael

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Re: installing OpenBSD 4.9 to external USB harddisk: Disk does not boot

Francois Pussault-2
if other BSD can boot, you can eliminate bios upgrade solution ;)

> ----------------------------------------
> From: Michael Treibton <[hidden email]>
> Sent: Sun Aug 07 13:31:11 CEST 2011
> To: Francois Pussault <[hidden email]>
> Subject: Re: installing OpenBSD 4.9 to external USB harddisk: Disk does not
boot
>
>
> hi,
>
> On 7 August 2011 12:19, Francois Pussault <[hidden email]>
wrote:
> > hi, all,
> >
> > This should be an hardware issue, I've used an usb external drive with
success. whith a dell A6 or A7 version of Dell bios, boot usb enabled, with a
(double-usb) eternal drive, using BSD4.2 filesystem.
> >
> > so maybe you need a bios upgrade or a double-usb-drive to be able to boot
or to use BSD4.2 fs on / ?

>
> i'd agree with you if it wasn't for the fact that NetBSD has been on
> this drive at some point, and has booted from it just fine,
> unfortunately only OpenBSD seems to suffer being able to work off this
> drive.
>
> I'm wondering if it's down to how the other BSDs partition the disk?
> it's entirely possible other OSes gave a small partition for /boot
> which the bios could pick up on?  that being the case, is that easy to
> do at install time?  i'll have to read the docs i suppose, assuming
> its even a good idea.
>
> But bios upgrade?  No, i really can't see how that's correct given
> evidence to the contrary.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Michael


Cordialement
Francois Pussault
3701 - 8 rue Marcel Pagnol
31100 ToulouseB
FranceB
+33 6 17 230 820 B  +33 5 34 365 269
[hidden email]

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Re: installing OpenBSD 4.9 to external USB harddisk: Disk does not boot

David Vasek
In reply to this post by Michael Treibton
On Sun, 7 Aug 2011, Michael Treibton wrote:

> If there's a means of providing more information to help with this,
> please say.

I guess the devs would like to see the output from OpenBSD fdisk(8) and
disklabel(8), rather than from Linux. You can obtain those by selecting
the (S)hell in the install program and using the commands above.

The key part probably is what, if anything, is being displayed by the
bootloader before the BIOS boots from the internal disk and in what state
was the disk and the MBR table prior the install.

Regards,
David

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Re: installing OpenBSD 4.9 to external USB harddisk: Disk does not boot

Kenneth R Westerback
On Sun, Aug 07, 2011 at 02:01:44PM +0200, David Vasek wrote:
> On Sun, 7 Aug 2011, Michael Treibton wrote:
>
> >If there's a means of providing more information to help with
> >this, please say.
>
> I guess the devs would like to see the output from OpenBSD fdisk(8)
> and disklabel(8), rather than from Linux. You can obtain those by
> selecting the (S)hell in the install program and using the commands
> above.

Yes, we would. :-). All the normal information (e.g. dmesg) and a
serial capture of the install process so we can see exactly what
the installer was saying and was told.

>
> The key part probably is what, if anything, is being displayed by
> the bootloader before the BIOS boots from the internal disk and in
> what state was the disk and the MBR table prior the install.
>

Also true. The 'hd0+', etc. line would be informative.

Best of all, try to install the OpenBSD 5.0 snapshot. That's the most
interesting (and soon to be locked) environment.

.... Ken

> Regards,
> David

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Re: installing OpenBSD 4.9 to external USB harddisk: Disk does not boot

Michael Treibton
hi,

On 7 August 2011 15:24, Kenneth R Westerback <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Sun, Aug 07, 2011 at 02:01:44PM +0200, David Vasek wrote:
>> On Sun, 7 Aug 2011, Michael Treibton wrote:
>>
>> >If there's a means of providing more information to help with
>> >this, please say.
>>
>> I guess the devs would like to see the output from OpenBSD fdisk(8)
>> and disklabel(8), rather than from Linux. You can obtain those by
>> selecting the (S)hell in the install program and using the commands
>> above.
>
> Yes, we would. :-). All the normal information (e.g. dmesg) and a
> serial capture of the install process so we can see exactly what
> the installer was saying and was told.

is there a cleverer way of doing this?  i just do not have the
infrastructure here to attempt a serial capture, despite the
well-documented instructions in the OBSD docs.  i can get the output
you want, although because the installer doesn't have scp or anything,
i have no means of copying these files.

is there another means at my disposal to get these files off?

Kindly,
Michael

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Re: installing OpenBSD 4.9 to external USB harddisk: Disk does not boot

ropers
In reply to this post by Michael Treibton
This is a long shot, but could this be related to the USB drive not
having "settled in" soon enough?

I'm assuming your USB drive has an external power supply, right? It is
a know problem with some external self-powered USB drives and
USB-to-SATA/IDE adapters that some of these can start acting up if
they're plugged in as soon as they have power. Many of these iffy or
inferior drives/adapters will work just fine if you first plug in
their external power supply, then wait for a few seconds, or maybe
even a minute or so, and then and only then plug their USB cable into
the actual computer. But give the computer an opportunity to try
mounting them before these iffy USB devices have had the time to get
their act together and they will misbehave and malfunction in all
kinds of weird and wonderful ways.

If you give your drive the chance to settle in first, does that allow
you to work with the drive properly (i.e. does it allow you to
properly install an OS on the USB drive and/or boot from it)? Let it
settle in first, and then try booting, powering up the PC only after
the USB drive has had time to get its shit together. If that doesn't
work, try letting the USB drive settile in first, and then reinstall
OpenBSD on it, and then try booting from it (again with time to settle
in).

Let us know if this helps or if this was a complete red herring.

regards,
--ropers

On 7 August 2011 12:32, Michael Treibton <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> i'm attempting to diagnose if there was a problem with installing
> OpenBSD to an external USB hard disk or not.  The disk is a Western
> Digital 2TB disk, should it matter.  Needless to say, the install went
> fine on to the disk; all the sets were unpacked, and I rebooted the
> machine as per the instructions at the end.  During install, I let the
> installer auto partition the disk in question, and that ended up
> creating a sensible layout that i could tell.
>
> Yet, when i reboot the machine, and ask the BIOS to boot from the
> external usb disk, eventually nothing happens, and my machine then
> defaults to booting off my internal disk.  What could be causing this?
>  i've had other operating systems on this external USB disk in the
> past, so I know it's perfectly capable of being detected correctly by
> the BIOS.
>
> Since though I can't get at the disk in question, I am unsure what
> information I can gather for you -- under Linux using "cfdisk", the
> best information I can gather is the following:
>
>    Number   Flags      Part Type   Filesystem        Label              
 Size
>
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
>                       Pri/Ext     Free space                          
 0.00MB
>      4     Bootable   Primary     sun-ufs                          
 2000396MB
>
> And:
>
>     Partition info
>
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--

>
>      Possible partition device: /dev/sdb4
>                 Partition type: Primary
>
>        Partition size in bytes: 2000396288512B
>      Partition size in sectors: 3907024001s
>       Portion of the hard disk: 100%
>
>                Filesystem type: sun-ufs
>                    System type: 0xa6
>               System type name: OpenBSD
>
>                       Position: 64s-3907024064s
>       Start (cyl,heads,sector): 0,1,1
>         End (cyl,heads,sector): 243200,254,62
>
>                          Flags: boot
>
> If there's a means of providing more information to help with this, please
say.
>
> TIA for any help.
>
> Kindly,
> Michael

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Re: installing OpenBSD 4.9 to external USB harddisk: Disk does not boot

Bryan Brake
In reply to this post by Michael Treibton
On Sun, Aug 7, 2011 at 18:14, Michael Treibton <[hidden email]>
wrote:
<snipped...>
>
> is there a cleverer way of doing this? B i just do not have the
> infrastructure here to attempt a serial capture, despite the
> well-documented instructions in the OBSD docs. B i can get the output
> you want, although because the installer doesn't have scp or anything,
> i have no means of copying these files.
>

I have gone as far as taking physical pictures of the screen with the
ps, trace, and dmesg on it, then posted the pictures to picasa or
someplace like that, so they could be viewable by everyone.  It's not
perfect, but laptops don't have a serial capture (at least, Dell's
don't).  You can use a camera phone, or if you are desperate, a
camera...

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Re: installing OpenBSD 4.9 to external USB harddisk: Disk does not boot

Nick Holland
In reply to this post by Michael Treibton
On 08/07/11 07:30, Michael Treibton wrote:

> hi,
>
> On 7 August 2011 12:19, Francois Pussault <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> hi, all,
>>
>> This should be an hardware issue, I've used an usb external drive with success. whith a dell A6 or A7 version of Dell bios, boot usb enabled, with a (double-usb) eternal drive, using BSD4.2 filesystem.
>>
>> so maybe you need a bios upgrade or a double-usb-drive to be able to boot or to use BSD4.2 fs on / ?
>
> i'd agree with you if it wasn't for the fact that NetBSD has been on
> this drive at some point, and has booted from it just fine,
> unfortunately only OpenBSD seems to suffer being able to work off this
> drive.
>
> I'm wondering if it's down to how the other BSDs partition the disk?
> it's entirely possible other OSes gave a small partition for /boot
> which the bios could pick up on?  that being the case, is that easy to
> do at install time?  i'll have to read the docs i suppose, assuming
> its even a good idea.
>
> But bios upgrade?  No, i really can't see how that's correct given
> evidence to the contrary.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Michael

It really boils down to either:
1) your BIOS is brain damaged and can't boot OpenBSD from an external
HD.  Your "evidence" in no way convinces me that's not true.  I've seen
machines that claimed to be able to boot from a USB device (Dell D610
laptop), but couldn't from an OpenBSD flash drive that booted Just Fine
on a much lower priced machine from a manufacturer with a very poor
reputation for quality and support (Acer Aspire One).  BIOS update
didn't help in my case.

2) Something went wrong with your install process.
All kinds of options there -- no MBR code loaded, PBR didn't install
properly, etc.

No promises that "both" isn't the answer.

This works, I've been installing OpenBSD on USB drives and flash devices
for a long time.  There's a flash drive sitting on my keyboard right
now, 2G total, 1.5G OpenBSD, 0.5G FAT.  Won't work on the above
mentioned Dell D610, but works on almost everything else.

Look at this:
  http://www.openbsd.org/faq/faq14.html#Boot386
there's all kinds of info about what happens and how the boot process
works.  If you don't get the "Using drive 0, partition 3." message, your
MBR is screwed up.  If you don't get the "Loading" message, the PBR is
screwed up.  In either case, the BIOS could be at fault (MBR can't say
"hi" if it isn't being loaded and run).

Nick.

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Re: installing OpenBSD 4.9 to external USB harddisk: Disk does not boot

Ted Unangst-6
In reply to this post by David Vasek
On Mon, Aug 08, 2011, Michael Treibton wrote:
> is there a cleverer way of doing this?  i just do not have the
> infrastructure here to attempt a serial capture, despite the
> well-documented instructions in the OBSD docs.  i can get the output
> you want, although because the installer doesn't have scp or anything,
> i have no means of copying these files.
>
> is there another means at my disposal to get these files off?

You booted the installer somehow, right?  Boot from that disk to the
boot> prompt, then boot hd1:/bsd or hd0:/bsd or something as appropriate.

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Re: installing OpenBSD 4.9 to external USB harddisk: Disk does not boot

Brett Mahar-2
In reply to this post by ropers
> I'm assuming your USB drive has an external power supply, right?

In the past, I had installed OpenBSD (I think it was 4.7, either i386 or
amd64) to an external usb drive, powered from the usb port. It would
appear to install ok, start the boot process, then about halfway through
would appear to "power cycle" or something for a split second, causing
the boot to fail. Same thing would happen with FreeBSD and Slackware,
though Ubuntu and Fedora could successfully boot from that drive.

Now that this topic has come up on the lists, I am just wondering are
there some non-externally powered usb drives that OpenBSD can boot from?
Would be helpful to run and test -current on external drive, and have
the release version on internal drive.

Cheers,
Brett.

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Re: installing OpenBSD 4.9 to external USB harddisk: Disk does not boot

Nico Kadel-Garcia-2
On Sun, Aug 7, 2011 at 11:25 PM, Brett <[hidden email]> wrote:

>> I'm assuming your USB drive has an external power supply, right?
>
> In the past, I had installed OpenBSD (I think it was 4.7, either i386 or
> amd64) to an external usb drive, powered from the usb port. It would appear
> to install ok, start the boot process, then about halfway through would
> appear to "power cycle" or something for a split second, causing the boot to
> fail. Same thing would happen with FreeBSD and Slackware, though Ubuntu and
> Fedora could successfully boot from that drive.
>
> Now that this topic has come up on the lists, I am just wondering are there
> some non-externally powered usb drives that OpenBSD can boot from? Would be
> helpful to run and test -current on external drive, and have the release
> version on internal drive.

Besides flash drives, which are trivially available in 8 Gig size at
your local supermarket?

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Re: installing OpenBSD 4.9 to external USB harddisk: Disk does not boot

Brett Mahar-2
On 08/07/11 22:48, Brett wrote:

> On 08/07/11 22:17, Nico Kadel-Garcia wrote:
>> On Sun, Aug 7, 2011 at 11:25 PM, Brett<[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>> I'm assuming your USB drive has an external power supply, right?
>>>
>>> In the past, I had installed OpenBSD (I think it was 4.7, either i386 or
>>> amd64) to an external usb drive, powered from the usb port. It would
>>> appear
>>> to install ok, start the boot process, then about halfway through would
>>> appear to "power cycle" or something for a split second, causing the
>>> boot to
>>> fail. Same thing would happen with FreeBSD and Slackware, though
>>> Ubuntu and
>>> Fedora could successfully boot from that drive.
>>>
>>> Now that this topic has come up on the lists, I am just wondering are
>>> there
>>> some non-externally powered usb drives that OpenBSD can boot from?
>>> Would be
>>> helpful to run and test -current on external drive, and have the release
>>> version on internal drive.
>>
>> Besides flash drives, which are trivially available in 8 Gig size at
>> your local supermarket?
>>

Yes, besides those, since I prefer the 300gb size of hard drives :-)

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Re: installing OpenBSD 4.9 to external USB harddisk: Disk does not boot

ropers
In reply to this post by Nico Kadel-Garcia-2
>> Now that this topic has come up on the lists, I am just wondering are there
>> some non-externally powered usb drives that OpenBSD can boot from? Would be
>> helpful to run and test -current on external drive, and have the release
>> version on internal drive.

Just to be clear, I for one didn't previously say that *all* USB
drives with external power supplies had settling in problems. I don't
think that is the case. I'm pretty confident there are
externally-powered usb drives out there that will work without
"settling in" -- though I have to admit I just don't know how
prevalent the issue real is. I only know that *some* drives and
adapters have these problems. I own a USB-to-SATA/IDE adapter that
does and that needs settling in, but that's the extent of my
first-hand knowledge.

I also don't know whether OS support still plays a role in this. I
could imagine that *maybe* the USB stack of some OSes might be able to
recognize that a drive hasn't "settled in" properly and might then be
able to reset the drive or part of its USB stack to get things to work
without the user taking special settling-in precautions. But I just
don't know. The only thing that can really reveal the truth is
testing.

I would recommend bringing a laptop into the shop and trying before
you buy an external USB drive/adapter. Or make sure there's a
no-question-asked money back guarantee if you mail-order.

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Re: installing OpenBSD 4.9 to external USB harddisk: Disk does not boot

David Vasek
In reply to this post by Michael Treibton
On Mon, 8 Aug 2011, Michael Treibton wrote:

> is there a cleverer way of doing this?  i just do not have the
> infrastructure here to attempt a serial capture, despite the
> well-documented instructions in the OBSD docs.  i can get the output
> you want, although because the installer doesn't have scp or anything,
> i have no means of copying these files.
>
> is there another means at my disposal to get these files off?

Mount a USB flash drive, a floppy, even an internal drive partition with
FAT or EXT2/3 filesystem there and copy the files.

Regards,
David

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Re: installing OpenBSD 4.9 to external USB harddisk: Disk does not boot

David Vasek
In reply to this post by Ted Unangst-6
On Sun, 7 Aug 2011, Ted Unangst wrote:

> On Mon, Aug 08, 2011, Michael Treibton wrote:
>> is there a cleverer way of doing this?  i just do not have the
>> infrastructure here to attempt a serial capture, despite the
>> well-documented instructions in the OBSD docs.  i can get the output
>> you want, although because the installer doesn't have scp or anything,
>> i have no means of copying these files.
>>
>> is there another means at my disposal to get these files off?
>
> You booted the installer somehow, right?  Boot from that disk to the
> boot> prompt, then boot hd1:/bsd or hd0:/bsd or something as appropriate.

If you can boot from the install CD, try at the bootloader prompt:
boot> boot /4.9/i386/bsd -a -s

replace i386 with amd64 and bsd with bsd.rd if needed (there is no BIOS on
other platforms, isn't it?), watch what your external drive is (possibly
sd0), and enter your root and swap partitions (sd0a and sd0b in that
case). After you verify that your disk as recognised by the kernel match
your /etc/fstab, you can exit the single user shell and even go multiuser.
Then you will have anything you need for report, diagnostics and possibly
for repair too.

Regards,
David

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Re: installing OpenBSD 4.9 to external USB harddisk: Disk does not boot

David Vasek
On Mon, 8 Aug 2011, David Vasek wrote:

> On Sun, 7 Aug 2011, Ted Unangst wrote:
>
>> On Mon, Aug 08, 2011, Michael Treibton wrote:
>>> is there a cleverer way of doing this?  i just do not have the
>>> infrastructure here to attempt a serial capture, despite the
>>> well-documented instructions in the OBSD docs.  i can get the output
>>> you want, although because the installer doesn't have scp or anything,
>>> i have no means of copying these files.
>>>
>>> is there another means at my disposal to get these files off?
>>
>> You booted the installer somehow, right?  Boot from that disk to the
>> boot> prompt, then boot hd1:/bsd or hd0:/bsd or something as appropriate.
>
> If you can boot from the install CD, try at the bootloader prompt:
> boot> boot /4.9/i386/bsd -a -s
>
> replace i386 with amd64 and bsd with bsd.rd if needed
                                       ^^^^^^^^
Ooops, I meant bsd.mp, of course. But SP kernel should be enough anyway.

Regards,
David