backing up windows hosts to openbsd

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backing up windows hosts to openbsd

Jacob Yocom-Piatt
i've seen a number of solutions for backing up windows hosts to an
openbsd backup server. there are ~50 windows hosts to backup with an
average of ~10 GB of stuff on each machine. for my purposes a key
feature of such a solution is that it makes FULL backups of the windows
hosts that can be used to replace faulty hard drives with working
bootable replacement drives.

the solutions i've seen offered on openbsd lists and elsewhere are

- amanda w/ cygwin
- rsync w/ cygwin
- bacula
- backuppc
- boxbackup

if anyone has experience with these programs and can vouch for their
ease of use in the aforementioned context, i would like to hear about
it. do let me know if i've missed any good ones that are not already listed.

i am to understand that backuppc cannot backup locked windows files nor
can you generate full bootable restores, so it's out of the running
pretty much off the bat. figured i'd mention it anyways...

cheers,
jake

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Re: backing up windows hosts to openbsd

Joachim Schipper
On Fri, Jan 05, 2007 at 05:05:37PM -0600, Jacob Yocom-Piatt wrote:

> i've seen a number of solutions for backing up windows hosts to an
> openbsd backup server. there are ~50 windows hosts to backup with an
> average of ~10 GB of stuff on each machine. for my purposes a key
> feature of such a solution is that it makes FULL backups of the windows
> hosts that can be used to replace faulty hard drives with working
> bootable replacement drives.
>
> the solutions i've seen offered on openbsd lists and elsewhere are
>
> - amanda w/ cygwin
> - rsync w/ cygwin
> - bacula
> - backuppc
> - boxbackup
>
> if anyone has experience with these programs and can vouch for their
> ease of use in the aforementioned context, i would like to hear about
> it. do let me know if i've missed any good ones that are not already listed.
>
> i am to understand that backuppc cannot backup locked windows files nor
> can you generate full bootable restores, so it's out of the running
> pretty much off the bat. figured i'd mention it anyways...

To the extent of my knowledge, the AMANDA in ports uses SAMBA to backup
Windows hosts, and (thus?) suffers from the same problem. I'd suppose
rsync has the same problem AMANDA has, but I never tried that. It does
need lots of disk, though.

Some bacula guys recently posted a port of their client (which promptly
got broken by a revision to the mt code, but that's fixed now); however,
I don't think the server currently works on OpenBSD.

I'm not familiar with any of the other things you mention.

Me, I just tell everyone that whatever isn't on the SAMBA server can,
and will, be eaten. If the network was a bit bigger, I'd probably use
install images of some sort for the Windows boxes.

                Joachim

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Re: backing up windows hosts to openbsd

Sam Fourman Jr.
Do any of these backup the winxp registry as well?

Sam Fourman Jr.

On 1/5/07, Joachim Schipper <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Fri, Jan 05, 2007 at 05:05:37PM -0600, Jacob Yocom-Piatt wrote:
> > i've seen a number of solutions for backing up windows hosts to an
> > openbsd backup server. there are ~50 windows hosts to backup with an
> > average of ~10 GB of stuff on each machine. for my purposes a key
> > feature of such a solution is that it makes FULL backups of the windows
> > hosts that can be used to replace faulty hard drives with working
> > bootable replacement drives.
> >
> > the solutions i've seen offered on openbsd lists and elsewhere are
> >
> > - amanda w/ cygwin
> > - rsync w/ cygwin
> > - bacula
> > - backuppc
> > - boxbackup
> >
> > if anyone has experience with these programs and can vouch for their
> > ease of use in the aforementioned context, i would like to hear about
> > it. do let me know if i've missed any good ones that are not already listed.
> >
> > i am to understand that backuppc cannot backup locked windows files nor
> > can you generate full bootable restores, so it's out of the running
> > pretty much off the bat. figured i'd mention it anyways...
>
> To the extent of my knowledge, the AMANDA in ports uses SAMBA to backup
> Windows hosts, and (thus?) suffers from the same problem. I'd suppose
> rsync has the same problem AMANDA has, but I never tried that. It does
> need lots of disk, though.
>
> Some bacula guys recently posted a port of their client (which promptly
> got broken by a revision to the mt code, but that's fixed now); however,
> I don't think the server currently works on OpenBSD.
>
> I'm not familiar with any of the other things you mention.
>
> Me, I just tell everyone that whatever isn't on the SAMBA server can,
> and will, be eaten. If the network was a bit bigger, I'd probably use
> install images of some sort for the Windows boxes.
>
>                 Joachim

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Re: backing up windows hosts to openbsd

Andreas Vögele-3
In reply to this post by Jacob Yocom-Piatt
Jacob Yocom-Piatt writes:

> i've seen a number of solutions for backing up windows hosts to an
> openbsd backup server. there are ~50 windows hosts to backup with an
> average of ~10 GB of stuff on each machine. for my purposes a key
> feature of such a solution is that it makes FULL backups of the
> windows hosts that can be used to replace faulty hard drives with
> working bootable replacement drives.

You could run Symantec Backup Exec System Recovery Desktop Edition on
the Windows clients and backup to Samba shares on the OpenBSD server.
The desktop edition costs 30 EUR per client and although the software
is from Symantec it isn't that bad.

> [...]
> i am to understand that backuppc cannot backup locked windows files
> nor can you generate full bootable restores, so it's out of the
> running pretty much off the bat. figured i'd mention it anyways...

There's a patched cygwin-rsyncd available from the BackupPC site that
supports volume shadow copies.  You still can't do disaster recoveries
though.

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Re: backing up windows hosts to openbsd

Siju George
In reply to this post by Jacob Yocom-Piatt
On 1/6/07, Jacob Yocom-Piatt <[hidden email]> wrote:

> i've seen a number of solutions for backing up windows hosts to an
> openbsd backup server. there are ~50 windows hosts to backup with an
> average of ~10 GB of stuff on each machine. for my purposes a key
> feature of such a solution is that it makes FULL backups of the windows
> hosts that can be used to replace faulty hard drives with working
> bootable replacement drives.
>
> the solutions i've seen offered on openbsd lists and elsewhere are
>
> - amanda w/ cygwin
> - rsync w/ cygwin
> - bacula
>
 I didn't use it because of this Problem.

http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/message.php?msg_id=12189500

The Bacula author Kern Sibbald said in the above link that it would a
feature in the future but I have not followed up to see if it was
implemented.

> - backuppc
>

I use this on OpenBSD 4.0/amd64 to backup OpenBSD/FreeBSD/Debian/MS Windows

but it suffers from the limitations said in

http://backuppc.sourceforge.net/faq/limitations.html

More over it is not in 4.0 ports.

Andreas Volges sent it to ports@ after he got a few enquiries about this port.
( he was kind enough to send me privately 3.9 port too 6 months back )

> - boxbackup
>
> if anyone has experience with these programs and can vouch for their
> ease of use in the aforementioned context, i would like to hear about
> it. do let me know if i've missed any good ones that are not already listed.
>

I have no experience with other software you mentioned :-(

> i am to understand that backuppc cannot backup locked windows files nor
> can you generate full bootable restores, so it's out of the running
> pretty much off the bat. figured i'd mention it anyways...
>

Yup! I am also on the lookout for a solution to do this.

I was looking for some sort of setup that can clone an entire
partition and may be share the images using some sort of version
control.

Some one sent me

http://alma.ch/blogs/bahut/2005/04/cloning-xp-with-linux-and-ntfsclone.html

but it is not feasible since it requiresa reboot :-(

Hope this helps

Kind Regards

Siju

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Re: backing up windows hosts to openbsd

Rod Whitworth-3
On Sat, 6 Jan 2007 14:24:30 +0530, Siju George wrote:

>On 1/6/07, Jacob Yocom-Piatt <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> i've seen a number of solutions for backing up windows hosts to an
>> openbsd backup server. there are ~50 windows hosts to backup with an
>> average of ~10 GB of stuff on each machine. for my purposes a key
>> feature of such a solution is that it makes FULL backups of the windows
>> hosts that can be used to replace faulty hard drives with working
>> bootable replacement drives.
>>
>> the solutions i've seen offered on openbsd lists and elsewhere are
>>
>> - amanda w/ cygwin
>> - rsync w/ cygwin
>> - bacula
>>
> I didn't use it because of this Problem.
>
>http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/message.php?msg_id=12189500
>
>The Bacula author Kern Sibbald said in the above link that it would a
>feature in the future but I have not followed up to see if it was
>implemented.
>
>> - backuppc
>>
>
>I use this on OpenBSD 4.0/amd64 to backup OpenBSD/FreeBSD/Debian/MS Windows
>
>but it suffers from the limitations said in
>
>http://backuppc.sourceforge.net/faq/limitations.html
>
>More over it is not in 4.0 ports.
>
>Andreas Volges sent it to ports@ after he got a few enquiries about this port.
>( he was kind enough to send me privately 3.9 port too 6 months back )
>
>> - boxbackup
>>
>> if anyone has experience with these programs and can vouch for their
>> ease of use in the aforementioned context, i would like to hear about
>> it. do let me know if i've missed any good ones that are not already listed.
>>
>
>I have no experience with other software you mentioned :-(
>
>> i am to understand that backuppc cannot backup locked windows files nor
>> can you generate full bootable restores, so it's out of the running
>> pretty much off the bat. figured i'd mention it anyways...
>>
>
>Yup! I am also on the lookout for a solution to do this.
>
>I was looking for some sort of setup that can clone an entire
>partition and may be share the images using some sort of version
>control.
>
>Some one sent me
>
>http://alma.ch/blogs/bahut/2005/04/cloning-xp-with-linux-and-ntfsclone.html
>
>but it is not feasible since it requiresa reboot :-(
>

There is also G4U. It is based on NetBSD and will backup an entire
drive with whatever OS to an ftp server or it can do partitions
individually.

I needed to do a recovery backup for my wife's daughter and used it to
snapshot an IBM win2k that was a virgin install + the minimum app set
she needed, so I tried it.

I used the suggested empty space nulling suggested on the G4U website
plus the max compression available.

It backed up a 20GB HDD in about 90 minutes (partitioned C and D
drives) and restored on test to an 80GB drive (looking like a 20GB
afterwards, well it does use dd!, but you could use partition tragic I
think) in about 45 min.

She has a copy on a dvd now so that I can use it for an ftp->G4U
recovery if needed. Beats reinstalling 2k and remembering all the
configs, passwords and app settings.

Really keen folk could redo this on OpenBSD if they had the need and I
also wished there was a way in the G4U cd to save just the boot track
etc etc. I don't need it enough to bother doing it though.

It was pretty easy really, doing what was needed.

CD ISO's and fd images on g4U website. Reasonable docs too.

HTH
Rod/

From the land "down under": Australia.
Do we look <umop apisdn> from up over?

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Re: backing up windows hosts to openbsd

Joachim Schipper
In reply to this post by Sam Fourman Jr.
On Fri, Jan 05, 2007 at 09:42:16PM -0600, Sam Fourman Jr. wrote:

> On 1/5/07, Joachim Schipper <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >On Fri, Jan 05, 2007 at 05:05:37PM -0600, Jacob Yocom-Piatt wrote:
> >> i've seen a number of solutions for backing up windows hosts to an
> >> openbsd backup server. there are ~50 windows hosts to backup with an
> >> average of ~10 GB of stuff on each machine. for my purposes a key
> >> feature of such a solution is that it makes FULL backups of the windows
> >> hosts that can be used to replace faulty hard drives with working
> >> bootable replacement drives.
> >>
> >> the solutions i've seen offered on openbsd lists and elsewhere are
> >>
> >> - amanda w/ cygwin
> >> - rsync w/ cygwin
> >> - bacula
> >> - backuppc
> >> - boxbackup
> >>
> >> if anyone has experience with these programs and can vouch for their
> >> ease of use in the aforementioned context, i would like to hear about
> >> it. do let me know if i've missed any good ones that are not already
> >listed.
> >>
> >> i am to understand that backuppc cannot backup locked windows files nor
> >> can you generate full bootable restores, so it's out of the running
> >> pretty much off the bat. figured i'd mention it anyways...
> >
> >To the extent of my knowledge, the AMANDA in ports uses SAMBA to backup
> >Windows hosts, and (thus?) suffers from the same problem. I'd suppose
> >rsync has the same problem AMANDA has, but I never tried that. It does
> >need lots of disk, though.
> >
> >Some bacula guys recently posted a port of their client (which promptly
> >got broken by a revision to the mt code, but that's fixed now); however,
> >I don't think the server currently works on OpenBSD.
> >
> >I'm not familiar with any of the other things you mention.
> >
> >Me, I just tell everyone that whatever isn't on the SAMBA server can,
> >and will, be eaten. If the network was a bit bigger, I'd probably use
> >install images of some sort for the Windows boxes.
>
> Do any of these backup the winxp registry as well?

Bacula might, but is not usable; to the best of my knowledge, neither
AMANDA nor rsync will work on registries.

                Joachim

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Re: backing up windows hosts to openbsd

Siju George
In reply to this post by Rod Whitworth-3
On 1/6/07, Rod.. Whitworth <[hidden email]> wrote:
> On Sat, 6 Jan 2007 14:24:30 +0530, Siju George wrote:
> >
>
> There is also G4U. It is based on NetBSD and will backup an entire
> drive with whatever OS to an ftp server or it can do partitions
> individually.
>

Thankyou so much for the Hnt rod :-)

kind Regards

Siju

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Re: backing up windows hosts to openbsd

OpenBSD.Tim.Boettcher
In reply to this post by Jacob Yocom-Piatt
>i've seen a number of solutions for backing up windows hosts to an
>openbsd backup server. there are ~50 windows hosts to backup with an
>average of ~10 GB of stuff on each machine. for my purposes a key
>feature of such a solution is that it makes FULL backups of the
windows

>hosts that can be used to replace faulty hard drives with working
>bootable replacement drives.
>
>the solutions i've seen offered on openbsd lists and elsewhere are
>
>- amanda w/ cygwin
>- rsync w/ cygwin
>- bacula
>- backuppc
>- boxbackup
>
>if anyone has experience with these programs and can vouch for their
>ease of use in the aforementioned context, i would like to hear about
>it. do let me know if i've missed any good ones that are not already
>listed.
>
>i am to understand that backuppc cannot backup locked windows files
nor
>can you generate full bootable restores, so it's out of the running
>pretty much off the bat. figured i'd mention it anyways...
>
>cheers,
>jake

I've had good luck using Driveimage XML to backup up to a Samba server:
- it doesn't require a reboot to run
- it creates an image of the drive and you can use it to restore to a
different drive.
- since it either locks the backup volume or uses MS's shadow
technology you can put the backup files on the same disk you are
backing up and copy/ftp/scp them to your server after the backup is
complete.
- you can browse the files in the backup image and restore individual
files.
- it will compress the backup files and each one is about 650MB so they
are easy to sore on DVDs or CDs.
- you can run it from the windows job scheduler to automate your
backups.

It is free and available at http://www.runtime.org/dixml.htm

Tim Boettcher
[hidden email]
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com 

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Re: backing up windows hosts to openbsd

chefren
On 1/6/07 9:25 PM, [hidden email] wrote:
>> i've seen a number of solutions for backing up windows hosts to an
>> openbsd backup server. there are ~50 windows hosts to backup with an
>> average of ~10 GB of stuff on each machine. for my purposes a key
>> feature of such a solution is that it makes FULL backups of the
> windows
>> hosts that can be used to replace faulty hard drives with working
>> bootable replacement drives.

It's very very very difficult to =guarantee= that without backing up
all those harddisks while Windows and all programs running on it are
put gracefully down. In general you can only make a really good backup
of a windows sysstem with the harddisk more or less taken out of that
system.

For example: rdisk copies on file level and if those files aren't
closed or synced by the programs that use them those files are
"broken" and you are just lucky if the broken state is OK to boot from it.

This problem has little to do with OpenBSD although I do hope with all
"hate" that's in me that once in the future OpenBSD will be the first
OS with a good database file system, that could solve the problem
above (provided all programs will use it etcetera), if well designed
the database managing program can provide proper backups on other
disks itself.

+++chefren

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Re: 'database filesystems' (was: backing up windows hosts to openbsd)

Joachim Schipper
On Sat, Jan 06, 2007 at 11:37:32PM +0100, chefren wrote:

> On 1/6/07 9:25 PM, [hidden email] wrote:
> >>i've seen a number of solutions for backing up windows hosts to an
> >>openbsd backup server. there are ~50 windows hosts to backup with an
> >>average of ~10 GB of stuff on each machine. for my purposes a key
> >>feature of such a solution is that it makes FULL backups of the
> >>windows hosts that can be used to replace faulty hard drives with
> >>working bootable replacement drives.
>
> It's very very very difficult to =guarantee= that without backing up
> all those harddisks while Windows and all programs running on it are
> put gracefully down. In general you can only make a really good backup
> of a windows sysstem with the harddisk more or less taken out of that
> system.
>
> For example: rdisk copies on file level and if those files aren't
> closed or synced by the programs that use them those files are
> "broken" and you are just lucky if the broken state is OK to boot from it.
>
> This problem has little to do with OpenBSD although I do hope with all
> "hate" that's in me that once in the future OpenBSD will be the first
> OS with a good database file system, that could solve the problem
> above (provided all programs will use it etcetera), if well designed
> the database managing program can provide proper backups on other
> disks itself.

Don't you mean something akin to Linux LVM's freeze feature, where you
can use a 'frozen in time' version of the disk to make backups from?
IIRC, the LVM stores the original blocks and reads those instead of the
modified ones when used in this way. The programs can continue to run as
always, and dump can do its thing.

Of course, Bad Things Happen once you run out of space to store those
original blocks on... (nothing too bad, but I do believe the 'frozen'
volume is destroyed on the spot).

Also, I believe OpenVMS has a versioned file system. I'm not sure either
of these solutions works well and/or would be appropriate for OpenBSD,
though.

Or did you mean something else entirely?

                Joachim

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OT Re: 'database filesystems'

chefren
Very Off Topic...

On 1/7/07 1:11 AM, Joachim Schipper wrote:

> Or did you mean something else entirely?


I mean lets start store and retrieve data in a truly universal way.

Now about every different program stores data in files in it's own
database format, in files that are only readable by that sole program
or by "compatible" programs.

We OpenBSD/Unix users can still live with this because ASCII is often
used as base within the most important files and almost all programs
are at least a little "compatible" with it.

It ends up that we are now in a situation that every program has it's
own often very incompatible ways of storing and retrieving data, being
it flags or whatever and it is more and more work to let programs
intercommunicate and we demand more quality (CVS for everything!).

What we need is a storage system that's far more universal for storing
a bit and a blob. We will probably never get rid of "blobs" being it
readable text, foto's or films.

But why are on a distance simple things like backing up a disk such a
headache? Because all programs have own locking, caching and other
systems in place. With a good database file system, with universal
locking etc, this is far easier. If well designed it's a snap to let
it maintain copies of disks on any level. That's not that easy to
design and it will always have to obey laws of physics, but it's
doable and within 20, 40 or more years everything will work with such
a storage system that includes transactions and CVS features for
everything.


Please don't get me wrong, I have high regard for things that work and
OpenBSD again and again proves to work as advertized. What I dreamed
of above is quite some work, but it's doable, it's just re-arranging
what we do and have in a more consistent, more orthagonal, way.

I can say we do produce code in this direction. It's stil for own use
and production the code delivers robust high speed storage and
retrieval of very small and big amounts of data and we are looking for
further interesting applications like a more universal database file
system. (For more interested: it uses an in house developed version of
radix trees and we use it for high speed disk based packet reallignment.)

+++chefren

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Re: backing up windows hosts to openbsd

Jeff Richards-2
In reply to this post by Jacob Yocom-Piatt
Are you possibly wanting partial restores as well as complete?  Are you implementing this in the university environment with "lab" PCs, or is this more for the faculty, etc. ?

I've used Bacula to backup my home PCs.  For a while Bacula has support VSS (shadow copy), so that is a major improvement.  I use ntbackup to get a system state in a cmd script and have that as a "before" job in my job definition.  Supposedly I should be able to use my Windows restore CD to restore a base OS, then restore the contents of my Bacula backups and the system state.  Theoretically (I say that because I discussed this with Windows admins at my last job) the system should be restored.  They were not 100% confident with the system state restore from Microsoft.

I actually plan on verifying my restore procedure on one of my PCs using a spare  drive.  It may be at least a week before I go through my "disaster recovery" test, but I will let you know the results if it will help.

Apart from the Bacula procedure I have used FreeDOS with savepart to backup/restore systems.  Very good to use as another method for full system recovery.  Of course with Linux there are other imaging applications as well.

One last thing might be to automate the backups of the PCs to a share (Samba, or W2K/W2K3, etc.)  using ntbackup to get the drive and system state information.  Again you will have to use a Windows install CD to get a base system (if they are all the same hardware I would definitely clone one with latest patches and label the image so you know what patch-level/etc. you are at) and then restore the system state and data.

Hope this helped.

Good luck.

Jacob Yocom-Piatt <[hidden email]> wrote: i've seen a number of solutions for backing up windows hosts to an
openbsd backup server. there are ~50 windows hosts to backup with an
average of ~10 GB of stuff on each machine. for my purposes a key
feature of such a solution is that it makes FULL backups of the windows
hosts that can be used to replace faulty hard drives with working
bootable replacement drives.

the solutions i've seen offered on openbsd lists and elsewhere are

- amanda w/ cygwin
- rsync w/ cygwin
- bacula
- backuppc
- boxbackup

if anyone has experience with these programs and can vouch for their
ease of use in the aforementioned context, i would like to hear about
it. do let me know if i've missed any good ones that are not already listed.

i am to understand that backuppc cannot backup locked windows files nor
can you generate full bootable restores, so it's out of the running
pretty much off the bat. figured i'd mention it anyways...

cheers,
jake
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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Re: backing up windows hosts to openbsd

Jacob Yocom-Piatt
Jeff Richards wrote:
> Are you possibly wanting partial restores as well as complete?  Are
you implementing this in the university environment with "lab" PCs, or
is this more for the faculty, etc. ?
>

nope, this isn't at uchicago, it's office PCs at a manufacturing
company. i'm more interested in full restores, e.g. recover from a hard
drive failure, instead of recovering files that someone accidentally
deleted.

> I've used Bacula to backup my home PCs.  For a while Bacula has
support VSS (shadow copy), so that is a major improvement.  I use
ntbackup to get a system state in a cmd script and have that as a
"before" job in my job definition.  Supposedly I should be able to use
my Windows restore CD to restore a base OS, then restore the contents of
my Bacula backups and the system state.  Theoretically (I say that
because I discussed this with Windows admins at my last job) the system
should be restored.  They were not 100% confident with the system state
restore from Microsoft.
>
> I actually plan on verifying my restore procedure on one of my PCs
using a spare  drive.  It may be at least a week before I go through my
"disaster recovery" test, but I will let you know the results if it will
help.
>

i would be interested to hear how this goes. i can provide some notes of
what i try later this coming week.

> Apart from the Bacula procedure I have used FreeDOS with savepart to
backup/restore systems.  Very good to use as another method for full
system recovery.  Of course with Linux there are other imaging
applications as well.
>
> One last thing might be to automate the backups of the PCs to a share
(Samba, or W2K/W2K3, etc.)  using ntbackup to get the drive and system
state information.  Again you will have to use a Windows install CD to
get a base system (if they are all the same hardware I would definitely
clone one with latest patches and label the image so you know what
patch-level/etc. you are at) and then restore the system state and data.
>

i appreciate all the suggestions everyone provided and gave g4u a whirl
today. g4u looks promising but a level 0 dump takes a long time and
requires user intervention. i will try the ntbackup to a samba share
this coming week and see how well it works. seems like microsloth is
keen on locking you in to using another sloth utility to backup their
drives so the ntbackup route seems to that of least resistance.

i have used acronis trueimage to good effect, although i'm looking to do
this on the cheap and with existing equipment if possible.

cheers,
jake

> Hope this helped.
>
> Good luck.

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Re: backing up windows hosts to openbsd

Siju George
In reply to this post by OpenBSD.Tim.Boettcher
On 1/7/07, [hidden email]
<[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> I've had good luck using Driveimage XML to backup up to a Samba server:
> - it doesn't require a reboot to run
> - it creates an image of the drive and you can use it to restore to a
> different drive.
> - since it either locks the backup volume or uses MS's shadow
> technology you can put the backup files on the same disk you are
> backing up and copy/ftp/scp them to your server after the backup is
> complete.
> - you can browse the files in the backup image and restore individual
> files.
> - it will compress the backup files and each one is about 650MB so they
> are easy to sore on DVDs or CDs.
> - you can run it from the windows job scheduler to automate your
> backups.
>
> It is free and available at http://www.runtime.org/dixml.htm
>

Thanks a million Tim :-)
This really Sounds Great!
I am going to implement this next week or so to backup windows
partitions to my Current OpenBSD Server Running backuppc.
will let you knoe the result later :-)

I just wonder Why Nick Holland said nothing about backing up MS
Windows hosts to OpenBSD. As I Know he has worked in MS Windows
Environment and Where ever he works he tries to use OpenBSD Whenever
he can :-) So Just wondering how he addressed this issue with an
OpenBSD based solution!

Thanks a lot onec again Tim

Kind Regards

Siju

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Re: backing up windows hosts to openbsd

smith-16
In reply to this post by Joachim Schipper
On Sat, 6 Jan 2007 00:34:43 +0100, Joachim Schipper wrote
> Me, I just tell everyone that whatever isn't on the SAMBA server can,
> and will, be eaten. If the network was a bit bigger, I'd probably use
> install images of some sort for the Windows boxes.
>
> Joachim

Having supported Windows environments for a long time I would agree with
Joachim.  I've never found a good solution to backing up Windows other than
ghosting it.  I've setup ghost servers using ghost + samba + netbootdisk.com.
 In this case, I buy a bunch of computers with the same motherboard, configure
it the way I want and ghost it.  If I need to rebuild the machine, restore an
image on it.  The users files are on the server as Joachim said.

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Re: backing up windows hosts to openbsd

smith-16
In reply to this post by Rod Whitworth-3
On Sat, 06 Jan 2007 22:30:00 +1100, Rod.. Whitworth wrote

> There is also G4U. It is based on NetBSD and will backup an entire
> drive with whatever OS to an ftp server or it can do partitions
> individually.
>

I've used g4u and really liked it.  But it was slow and inefficient for
Windows when compared to a combination of ghost + samba + netbootdisk.com.
g4u was a lot slower with 80 gig hard drives and used a lot of space even
after nulling the empty space.

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Re: backing up windows hosts to openbsd

Rod Whitworth-3
On Sun, 7 Jan 2007 22:48:23 -0800, smith wrote:

>On Sat, 06 Jan 2007 22:30:00 +1100, Rod.. Whitworth wrote
>
>> There is also G4U. It is based on NetBSD and will backup an entire
>> drive with whatever OS to an ftp server or it can do partitions
>> individually.
>>
>
>I've used g4u and really liked it.  But it was slow and inefficient for
>Windows when compared to a combination of ghost + samba + netbootdisk.com.
>g4u was a lot slower with 80 gig hard drives and used a lot of space even
>after nulling the empty space.
>

1>For me it was a one-off base install of OS+apps and lots of empty.
2>I don't have Ghost. It costs $ even if never needed. In fact more
than the IBM recovery CD.
3>We don't expect to reinstall often.
4> I don't have a samba server. G4U used an OpenBSD ftpd. Easy.
5> With W2k+OO.o+PuTTY for doing the dial-up trigger to the OBSD f/w+
Opera browser+ a couple of kid's things = 700 MB or so including a C:
and a D:

I'd not use it for some other scenarios but for this one it's fine.
Other b/ups do the added apps and data. You have seen those suggested
in this thread.

Frankly I don't want to waste my time doing an investigation to find
better methods. The savings due to finding something that works twice
as fast are a net loss.

Whatever floats <your> boat is what you need. My note was simply
another perspective.

Windows sux. I have domestic needs to support it. End of story.

No offense taken from your post, none intended in reply.
Go well.....
R/

From the land "down under": Australia.
Do we look <umop apisdn> from up over?

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Re: 'database filesystems' (was: backing up windows hosts to openbsd)

Brian Candler
In reply to this post by Joachim Schipper
On Sun, Jan 07, 2007 at 01:11:57AM +0100, Joachim Schipper wrote:

> On Sat, Jan 06, 2007 at 11:37:32PM +0100, chefren wrote:
> > This problem has little to do with OpenBSD although I do hope with all
> > "hate" that's in me that once in the future OpenBSD will be the first
> > OS with a good database file system, that could solve the problem
> > above (provided all programs will use it etcetera), if well designed
> > the database managing program can provide proper backups on other
> > disks itself.
>
> Don't you mean something akin to Linux LVM's freeze feature, where you
> can use a 'frozen in time' version of the disk to make backups from?
> IIRC, the LVM stores the original blocks and reads those instead of the
> modified ones when used in this way. The programs can continue to run as
> always, and dump can do its thing.

ISTM the problem is deeper than that.

Consider a database application - mysql or oracle or whatever. At some point
in time, it decides to write some updates to tables 1, 2 and 3, and index
files X, Y and Z.

It cannot request all these changes atomically, so it performs a series of
separate writes to the filesystem (these could be writes to separate files,
or a series of writes to the same file at different offsets)

If you happen to take a snapshot of the filesystem at the point where some
of these writes have been requested but others have not, then the image you
restore will be in an inconsistent state.

So, is the OP proposing that the filesystem itself gain ACID transactions,
say with a two-stage commit? If so, then the problems I can see are:

(1) You won't see any benefit until *all* applications have been rewritten
to use these new semantics instead of traditional ones. That means new
versions of oracle, mysql etc.

(2) The filesystem itself will be able to report new types of errors, such
as conflicting transactions, which applications will have to be able to
handle properly.

(3) Depending on what level of transaction isolation you select, performance
of concurrent applications may be much worse.

(4) The filesystem will still need to store this data as on-disk blocks, and
at snapshot time you'll still need to ensure that only whole transactions
are backed up.

So arguably you're just pushing the problem down a layer - although I admit
it would be easier to have a single backup operation at the filesystem layer
(quiesce; snapshot; release) than to have to do this for each of the running
applications.

Leaving applications such as databases to manage their own ACID requirements
does at least let them be tuned to their own specific needs, and lets them
run on a much wider range of platforms.

Maybe there's a partial solution, where you have a journalling layer on the
filesystem, and applications can opt to be aware of it (e.g. requesting a
series of writes as being part of the same journal-level transaction). But
this still requires changes to the applications, and I can see lots of
potential pitfalls.

> Of course, Bad Things Happen once you run out of space to store those
> original blocks on... (nothing too bad, but I do believe the 'frozen'
> volume is destroyed on the spot).

Filesystem snapshots are pretty old technology - NetApp have had them for
years. You reserve a maximum percentage of disk space for snapshots. If you
run out of snapshot space, then you just get a normal 'disk full' error, and
you can delete old or unwanted snapshots to free up space, or else alter the
snapshot percentage.

> Or did you mean something else entirely?

That's what I'm wondering.

Regards,

Brian.

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OT Re: 'database filesystems'

chefren
On 1/8/07 11:43 AM, Brian Candler wrote:

..

> (1) You won't see any benefit until *all* applications have been rewritten
> to use these new semantics instead of traditional ones. That means new
> versions of oracle, mysql etc.

Yes and no, the database filesystem should have an own SQL layer. It's
"nuts" to let have Oracle or MySQL own caches of data on your disk.

If you want a secure data server that's easy to backup and mirror all
data should be synced by the OS not by applications.

OpenBSD has now a strong focus on securing streams, connections. With
a database filesystem that should also apply for storage

> (2) The filesystem itself will be able to report new types of errors, such
> as conflicting transactions, which applications will have to be able to
> handle properly.

All data should be stored in one basic layer, not multiple.

> (3) Depending on what level of transaction isolation you select, performance
> of concurrent applications may be much worse.

Exactly, if you want a transaction system with data secured over 3
servers on remote locations then you get a very slow server because
everything has to be written to those 3 disks that are remote from
each other. So this new database filesystem needs parameters to define
what kind of quality you want. This is why I mentioned "laws of
physics" in the first place. If you want a faster system the remote
copies have more or less time-lag but the copies "know" this, they do
have a stable state.

> (4) The filesystem will still need to store this data as on-disk blocks, and
> at snapshot time you'll still need to ensure that only whole transactions
> are backed up.
>
> So arguably you're just pushing the problem down a layer - although I admit
> it would be easier to have a single backup operation at the filesystem layer
> (quiesce; snapshot; release) than to have to do this for each of the running
> applications.

So this is why I try to promote storage of data in 1 layer and not
multiple. Storage in multiple layers without proper organisation is
insecure by design.

> Leaving applications such as databases to manage their own ACID requirements
> does at least let them be tuned to their own specific needs, and lets them
> run on a much wider range of platforms.

The basic database filesystem could be open so others might adapt it
as a storage layer too.

See it as FAT or NTFS or or or, but more "intelligent".

> Maybe there's a partial solution, where you have a journalling layer on the
> filesystem, and applications can opt to be aware of it (e.g. requesting a
> series of writes as being part of the same journal-level transaction). But
> this still requires changes to the applications, and I can see lots of
> potential pitfalls.

Data storage at multiple layers is insecure by itself.

+++chefren

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