a half-baked analysis of the verification chicken-and-egg problem, and request

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Re: [Bulk] Re: Donations to OpenBSD

Theo de Raadt
> Another idea I guess with next to no work- high res copies of the
> stickers, paid for download at CD price.

Which then get shared, and reproduced by any asshole company on the
net, much like ixsoft.de has been doing for years?

> To fund the project yes but CD's are THE? route to fund Theo's ongoing
> full-time dedication.

Unfortunately it is that, or gifts to me.  Which is not income.  I still
need an income to remain legit in the eyes of the tax man.

> Cheque - more work than online so less likely?
> cash - risk, more work than online so less likely, knowing he actually
> got it?

Or [hidden email] paypal, even.  That's more recent, though.

> I guess Theo could publish his sort code and account number, are gifts
> tax free in Canada?

gifts are tax free.

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Re: [Bulk] Re: Donations to OpenBSD

Mihai Popescu-3
In reply to this post by Joel Rees-2
>> Another idea I guess with next to no work- high res copies of the
>> stickers, paid for download at CD price.

> Which then get shared, and reproduced by any asshole company on the
> net, much like ixsoft.de has been doing for years?

I did a quick check out of curiosity and there they are, OpenBSD
posters for sale.

The interesting fact is that at Hersteller section (Manufacturer,
tran.) is written OpenBSD.org!

What does it mean?

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Re: [Bulk] Re: Donations to OpenBSD

Daniel Villarreal
It means "Producer," or "maker"

If you do a search, you will see that they sell a lot of OpenBSD
stuff....are they or are they not selling official merchandise? I'd like to
hear what German OpenBSD users think of the situation. If they're too busy,
let me know.

Daniel Villarreal


On Thu, Aug 14, 2014 at 4:03 PM, Mihai Popescu <[hidden email]> wrote:

> >> Another idea I guess with next to no work- high res copies of the
> >> stickers, paid for download at CD price.
>
> > Which then get shared, and reproduced by any asshole company on the
> > net, much like ixsoft.de has been doing for years?
>
> I did a quick check out of curiosity and there they are, OpenBSD
> posters for sale.
>
> The interesting fact is that at Hersteller section (Manufacturer,
> tran.) is written OpenBSD.org!
>
> What does it mean?

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Re: [Bulk] Re: Donations to OpenBSD

Alan McKay
On Thu, Aug 14, 2014 at 4:40 PM, Daniel Villarreal
<[hidden email]> wrote:
> It means "Producer," or "maker"

also "manufacturer" ...


--
"Don't eat anything you've ever seen advertised on TV"
         - Michael Pollan, author of "In Defense of Food"

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Re: [Bulk] Re: Donations to OpenBSD

Martin Schröder
In reply to this post by Theo de Raadt
2014-08-14 19:13 GMT+02:00 Theo de Raadt <[hidden email]>:
> Which then get shared, and reproduced by any asshole company on the
> net, much like ixsoft.de has been doing for years?

?
ixsoft.de is still listed as reseller on http://www.openbsd.org/orders.html

Did I miss something?

Best
   Martin

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Re: Donations to OpenBSD

Andy Lemin
In reply to this post by Peter Hessler
Hahaha, lol!! Yes peter :)

Sent from my iPhone

> On 14 Aug 2014, at 10:17, Peter Hessler <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> options:
>
> 1) cash in envelope, put into mail
> 2) bank cheque in envelope, put in mail
> 3) suck it up, and stop caring about the middle man's cut
> 4) bank transfers (also: see #3)
> 5) fly to canada with a suitcase of money
> 6) bank transfers to the EUROPEAN bank
> 7) OpenBSD Foundatation
>
>
>
> On 2014 Aug 14 (Thu) at 10:02:42 +0100 (+0100), Andy wrote:
> :We've found this strangely difficult to do also.. Just want to donate, don't
> :want stuff in return, don't want middle men taking a cut..
> :
> :
> :On 14/08/14 09:59, Janne Johansson wrote:
> :>Talk to www.openbsdeurope.com, which happens to be in the UK.
> :>I'm sure they can arrange for donations in a simple-for-you way even if you
> :>don't need a product back.
> :>
> :>
> :>
> :>2014-08-14 8:16 GMT+02:00 Bernte <[hidden email]>:
> :>
> :>>On 14/08/14 01:10, Theo de Raadt wrote:
> :>>>>How does it compare for using the SWIFT method outlined on the website?
> :>>>The SWIFT donations go to the Project.  That is spent on things which
> :>>>the Foundation doesn't pay for.
> :>>Gee - CDs, T-Shirts, Project, Foundation - all this discussion starts to
> :>>confuse me.
> :>>
> :>>Theo, I am planning to donate, but I am loosing my understanding of the
> :>>optimal way.
> :>>
> :>>Could you please just clarify: I have money and I want that to go to the
> :>>OpenBSD project. I would like as much as possible to make it there (from
> :>>the UK in my case), I would like to give the OpenBSD people the highest
> :>>degree of freedom of what to do with it, and don't need any physical
> :>>gadgets to go with it. What is the optimal way to achieve this?
> :>>
> :>>Thanks,
> :>>Bernd
> :
>
> --
> Democracy is good.  I say this because other systems are worse.
>        -- Jawaharlal Nehru

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Re: Donations to OpenBSD

Andy Lemin
In reply to this post by Nicolai-8
We know... ;)

Sent from my iPhone

> On 14 Aug 2014, at 16:14, Nicolai <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> On Thu, Aug 14, 2014 at 07:16:41AM +0100, Bernte wrote:
>> Could you please just clarify: I have money and I want that to go to the
>> OpenBSD project. I would like as much as possible to make it there (from
>> the UK in my case), I would like to give the OpenBSD people the highest
>> degree of freedom of what to do with it, and don't need any physical
>> gadgets to go with it. What is the optimal way to achieve this?
>
> The OpenBSD Foundation.
>
> http://www.openbsdfoundation.org/donations.html
>
> Theo has mentioned it several times this year as being the preferred
> route.  It's as simple as possible.
>
> Nicolai

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Re: Donations to OpenBSD

Bernd Schoeller-2
In reply to this post by Nicolai-8
On 14/08/14 16:14, Nicolai wrote:

> On Thu, Aug 14, 2014 at 07:16:41AM +0100, Bernte wrote:
>> Could you please just clarify: I have money and I want that to go to the
>> OpenBSD project. I would like as much as possible to make it there (from
>> the UK in my case), I would like to give the OpenBSD people the highest
>> degree of freedom of what to do with it, and don't need any physical
>> gadgets to go with it. What is the optimal way to achieve this?
>
> The OpenBSD Foundation.
>
> http://www.openbsdfoundation.org/donations.html
>
> Theo has mentioned it several times this year as being the preferred
> route.  It's as simple as possible.
>
> Nicolai

Thanks Nicolai for the answer. A few things have been clarified
off-list. I now understand the implications of the different routes to
OpenBSD.

Bernd

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Re: Donations to OpenBSD

Ed Ahlsen-Girard-2
In reply to this post by Worik Stanton
This is from the Electricity thread but seems on point:

> Dear Misc,
>
> In re electricity, please do one of the following:
>
> 1. Send money.
> 2. Convince OTHER PEOPLE to send money.

This next bit is important, and is being overlooked again:

> 3. Stop summoning the Good Idea Fairy to the developers. I have
> seen the suggestions, and it's not that none of them could
> possibly work. It's that all of them *would have to be worked*, and
> whichever developers are working them will not be employed in their
> best and highest use.
>
> Dear Developers,
>
> Thanks.

I bought a CD yesterday. Go ye and do the same.

--

Edward Ahlsen-Girard
Ft Walton Beach, FL

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Re: Donations to OpenBSD

Eric Furman-3
In reply to this post by Bernd Schoeller-2
On Fri, Aug 15, 2014, at 02:02 AM, Bernte wrote:

> On 14/08/14 16:14, Nicolai wrote:
> > On Thu, Aug 14, 2014 at 07:16:41AM +0100, Bernte wrote:
> >> Could you please just clarify: I have money and I want that to go to the
> >> OpenBSD project. I would like as much as possible to make it there (from
> >> the UK in my case), I would like to give the OpenBSD people the highest
> >> degree of freedom of what to do with it, and don't need any physical
> >> gadgets to go with it. What is the optimal way to achieve this?
> >
> > The OpenBSD Foundation.
> >
> > http://www.openbsdfoundation.org/donations.html
> >
> > Theo has mentioned it several times this year as being the preferred
> > route.  It's as simple as possible.
> >
> > Nicolai
>
> Thanks Nicolai for the answer. A few things have been clarified
> off-list. I now understand the implications of the different routes to
> OpenBSD.
>
> Bernd
>

The best way to help OpenBSD is to help Theo de Raadt.
The best way to do that is to buy CD's.
Buy a CD and request no CD delivery.
Buy many CD's with this intent.
Buy a CD and have it shipped to Theo.
(not ideal but an option)
Theo does not like to admit it, understandably, but the main
funding of Theo de Raadt's expenses is paid for by CD sales.
If you want OpenBSD to continue to exist *BUY* *CD's*.
If you want the most secure binaries and to help the
OpenBSD project BUY CD's!

SWIFT and the Foundation fund things like Hackathons.
(I welcome corrections if I am am wrong)
Those things are great.
CD sales support Theo de Raadt directly.
ELECTRICITY
Property taxes
Mortgage
Food
Beer
All sorts of other ESSENTIAL expenses.
We do not want Theo to have to get a commercial job.
That would prevent him from being able to direct the
OpenBSD project.
If that happened then OpenBSD would cease to exist.
BUY CD's

It's really not that complicated.

P.S. Theo de Raadt is an asshole. :)
P.P.S. but if you care about OpenBSD that shit is irrelevant. ;)

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Re: Donations to OpenBSD

sven falempin
On Fri, Aug 15, 2014 at 8:08 AM, Eric Furman <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> On Fri, Aug 15, 2014, at 02:02 AM, Bernte wrote:
> > On 14/08/14 16:14, Nicolai wrote:
> > > On Thu, Aug 14, 2014 at 07:16:41AM +0100, Bernte wrote:
> > >> Could you please just clarify: I have money and I want that to go to
> the
> > >> OpenBSD project. I would like as much as possible to make it there
> (from
> > >> the UK in my case), I would like to give the OpenBSD people the
> highest
> > >> degree of freedom of what to do with it, and don't need any physical
> > >> gadgets to go with it. What is the optimal way to achieve this?
> > >
> > > The OpenBSD Foundation.
> > >
> > > http://www.openbsdfoundation.org/donations.html
> > >
> > > Theo has mentioned it several times this year as being the preferred
> > > route.  It's as simple as possible.
> > >
> > > Nicolai
> >
> > Thanks Nicolai for the answer. A few things have been clarified
> > off-list. I now understand the implications of the different routes to
> > OpenBSD.
> >
> > Bernd
> >
>
> The best way to help OpenBSD is to help Theo de Raadt.
> The best way to do that is to buy CD's.
> Buy a CD and request no CD delivery.
> Buy many CD's with this intent.
> Buy a CD and have it shipped to Theo.
> (not ideal but an option)
> Theo does not like to admit it, understandably, but the main
> funding of Theo de Raadt's expenses is paid for by CD sales.
> If you want OpenBSD to continue to exist *BUY* *CD's*.
> If you want the most secure binaries and to help the
> OpenBSD project BUY CD's!
>
> SWIFT and the Foundation fund things like Hackathons.
> (I welcome corrections if I am am wrong)
> Those things are great.
> CD sales support Theo de Raadt directly.
> ELECTRICITY
> Property taxes
> Mortgage
> Food
> Beer
>

can One donate Beer to openBSD fondation ?


> All sorts of other ESSENTIAL expenses.
> We do not want Theo to have to get a commercial job.
> That would prevent him from being able to direct the
> OpenBSD project.
> If that happened then OpenBSD would cease to exist.
> BUY CD's
>
> It's really not that complicated.
>
> P.S. Theo de Raadt is an asshole. :)
> P.P.S. but if you care about OpenBSD that shit is irrelevant. ;)
>
>


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Re: Donations to OpenBSD

James Shupe-4
In reply to this post by Ed Ahlsen-Girard-2
Why not just set up a recurring Paypal donation? Even $20/mo should
help, if enough people do it.

-James Shupe

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PDF FAQ [Was: Donations to OpenBSD]

Norman Gray
In reply to this post by Norman Gray
Greetings.

Some way up this thread, I said:

On 2014 Aug 14, at 11:21, Norman Gray <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 2014 Aug 14, at 01:10, Worik Stanton <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> Suggestion:  Package the release notes, FAQ and some other documentation
>> into a PDF and sell that at the same price as the CD, from the same
>> place.  I'd buy that.  It would be better quality than the (often) crap
>> O'Reilly sell, and I buy that.
>
> This is potentially quite a good idea.
>
> The T-shirts and CDs exist because (a) some people find them useful in themselves, and (b) some people prefer or find it more convenient to buy a physical thing they don't intend to use, as a means of making an indirect donation to the project.  This of course is discussed at length in the rest of this thread.
>
> There's precedent for such a physical book being sellable.  The Python Reference Manual [1] is a dead-tree version of the language and library description also available for free at [2].  There's clearly some story about the various reasons why people buy that, but it's clear that at least some do.  I have considered doing so myself -- a paper document is superior to an on-screen one in some circumstances -- but in the end found it more convenient to print out selected sections of the downloaded PDF.
>
> Places like lulu.com will put a PDF on paper for you and sell/ship the result.  I've no idea of the economic details of that, or alternatives to lulu, but such services do exist.
>
> I'm not making any promises here, but given mild encouragement I'd be very willing to take a look at how complicated it would be to turn the existing text or texts into a readable PDF (I've done this sort of thing before, and could probably do it fairly efficiently).

After posting that, I received some ... non-discouragement off-list,
and that's enough for me.

At <http://nxg.me.uk/temp/openbsd-faq-suggestion/> you will find,
for your delectation and delight:

  * A PDF of sections 1--5 of the FAQ;
  * An HTML version of this;
  * A tarball containing the source of the scripts which generate these
  from XML originals.

The idea of the PDF is that it's something which could potentially
be sold on dead trees (which might be useful/attractive for the
reasons above).

To do this, I took the HTML versions of the FAQ sections, and
normalised them into regular XHTML (which makes them processable
into other forms).  With that done, it was straightforward to
transform the result into both HTML for presentation, and into LaTeX
for further transformation into PDF.  This depends on the xsltproc
package, and obviously on LaTeX.

The HTML target does things like adding in consistent structuring,
generating tables of contents, ensuring that internal cross-references
are consistent, and so on.  The results should be identical in content,
and pretty similar in appearance, to the online versions.

The normalisation of the contents consisted in large part of
regularising away various bits of cruft used for layout (for example
<blockquote> and <table> elements (eek!) around <pre>, which are
fiddly to manage and are inevitably inconsistent across the document),
making "..." and '...' consistent, and a couple of other things
discussed in the README in the tarball.  The README also contains
some notes on the lightweight structuring added to the source files.

It would be pretty straightforward to generate a .txt FAQ from these
same sources (via *roff).

The results here aren't very pretty -- and obviously I've only done
the first five sections -- but they're respectable and should show
the idea.

Even if the PDF idea isn't taken up, this is potentially an alternative
way to generate the HTML files, in contrast to hand-editing
disconnected .html files.

I like the idea of the 'Good Idea Fairy'!  This one comes with product.

Best wishes,

Norman


--
Norman Gray  :  http://nxg.me.uk
SUPA School of Physics and Astronomy, University of Glasgow, UK

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Re: PDF FAQ [Was: Donations to OpenBSD]

sven falempin
On Sat, Aug 16, 2014 at 2:01 PM, Norman Gray <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Greetings.
>
> Some way up this thread, I said:
>
> On 2014 Aug 14, at 11:21, Norman Gray <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > On 2014 Aug 14, at 01:10, Worik Stanton <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> >> Suggestion:  Package the release notes, FAQ and some other documentation
> >> into a PDF and sell that at the same price as the CD, from the same
> >> place.  I'd buy that.  It would be better quality than the (often) crap
> >> O'Reilly sell, and I buy that.
> >
> > This is potentially quite a good idea.
> >
> > The T-shirts and CDs exist because (a) some people find them useful in
> themselves, and (b) some people prefer or find it more convenient to buy a
> physical thing they don't intend to use, as a means of making an indirect
> donation to the project.  This of course is discussed at length in the rest
> of this thread.
> >
> > There's precedent for such a physical book being sellable.  The Python
> Reference Manual [1] is a dead-tree version of the language and library
> description also available for free at [2].  There's clearly some story
> about the various reasons why people buy that, but it's clear that at least
> some do.  I have considered doing so myself -- a paper document is superior
> to an on-screen one in some circumstances -- but in the end found it more
> convenient to print out selected sections of the downloaded PDF.
> >
> > Places like lulu.com will put a PDF on paper for you and sell/ship the
> result.  I've no idea of the economic details of that, or alternatives to
> lulu, but such services do exist.
> >
> > I'm not making any promises here, but given mild encouragement I'd be
> very willing to take a look at how complicated it would be to turn the
> existing text or texts into a readable PDF (I've done this sort of thing
> before, and could probably do it fairly efficiently).
>
> After posting that, I received some ... non-discouragement off-list,
> and that's enough for me.
>
> At <http://nxg.me.uk/temp/openbsd-faq-suggestion/> you will find,
> for your delectation and delight:
>
>   * A PDF of sections 1--5 of the FAQ;
>   * An HTML version of this;
>   * A tarball containing the source of the scripts which generate these
>   from XML originals.
>
> The idea of the PDF is that it's something which could potentially
> be sold on dead trees (which might be useful/attractive for the
> reasons above).
>
> To do this, I took the HTML versions of the FAQ sections, and
> normalised them into regular XHTML (which makes them processable
> into other forms).  With that done, it was straightforward to
> transform the result into both HTML for presentation, and into LaTeX
> for further transformation into PDF.  This depends on the xsltproc
> package, and obviously on LaTeX.
>
> The HTML target does things like adding in consistent structuring,
> generating tables of contents, ensuring that internal cross-references
> are consistent, and so on.  The results should be identical in content,
> and pretty similar in appearance, to the online versions.
>
> The normalisation of the contents consisted in large part of
> regularising away various bits of cruft used for layout (for example
> <blockquote> and <table> elements (eek!) around <pre>, which are
> fiddly to manage and are inevitably inconsistent across the document),
> making "..." and '...' consistent, and a couple of other things
> discussed in the README in the tarball.  The README also contains
> some notes on the lightweight structuring added to the source files.
>
> It would be pretty straightforward to generate a .txt FAQ from these
> same sources (via *roff).
>
> The results here aren't very pretty -- and obviously I've only done
> the first five sections -- but they're respectable and should show
> the idea.
>
> Even if the PDF idea isn't taken up, this is potentially an alternative
> way to generate the HTML files, in contrast to hand-editing
> disconnected .html files.
>
> I like the idea of the 'Good Idea Fairy'!  This one comes with product.
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Norman
>
>
> --
> Norman Gray  :  http://nxg.me.uk
> SUPA School of Physics and Astronomy, University of Glasgow, UK
>
>
in the glorious third millemium are usb key as cheap as cd printing ?

--
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Re: PDF FAQ [Was: Donations to OpenBSD]

Adam Thompson
In reply to this post by Norman Gray
On 14-08-16 01:01 PM, Norman Gray wrote:
> To do this, I took the HTML versions of the FAQ sections, and
> normalised them into regular XHTML (which makes them processable
> into other forms).  With that done, it was straightforward to
> transform the result into both HTML for presentation, and into LaTeX
> for further transformation into PDF.  This depends on the xsltproc
> package, and obviously on LaTeX.
[...]
> It would be pretty straightforward to generate a .txt FAQ from these
> same sources (via *roff).

I find that this work would be useful to me - there are (admittedly
rare) occasions where I want an offline copy of the documentation.

But... shouldn't the "master" copy be in mdoc(7) format?  ;-)


Now, if anyone actually took that seriously:
I believe work on doclifter(1) and docbook2mdoc(1) is already in
consideration, perhaps there's an reasonably-automatic way to do the
conversion?  If not, I certainly don't think it's worth the time to
change it by hand.

--
-Adam Thompson
  [hidden email]

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Re: PDF FAQ

Ingo Schwarze
Hi Adam,

Adam Thompson wrote on Sat, Aug 16, 2014 at 03:27:46PM -0500:
> On 14-08-16 01:01 PM, Norman Gray wrote:

>> To do this, I took the HTML versions of the FAQ sections, and
>> normalised them into regular XHTML (which makes them processable
>> into other forms).  With that done, it was straightforward to
>> transform the result into both HTML for presentation, and into LaTeX
>> for further transformation into PDF.  This depends on the xsltproc
>> package, and obviously on LaTeX.
> [...]
>> It would be pretty straightforward to generate a .txt FAQ from these
>> same sources (via *roff).

Regarding the OP's mail, TL;DR (and too complicated).

> I find that this work would be useful to me - there are (admittedly
> rare) occasions where I want an offline copy of the documentation.
>
> But... shouldn't the "master" copy be in mdoc(7) format?  ;-)
>
> Now, if anyone actually took that seriously:

You'd be surprised to hear that i discussed that very question
with Nick@ last year in Toronto, and we both agreed that would
be useful.  We just didn't come round to it yet.

> I believe work on doclifter(1) and docbook2mdoc(1) is already in
> consideration,

That would be me.

> perhaps there's an reasonably-automatic way to do the conversion?

Almost certainly.  You would have to write a small one-time conversion
script in whatever scripting language you like (i'd probably go for
Perl if i were to do it).

doclifter(1) doesn't help much, actually, because the starting point
is not man(7), so docbook2mdoc(1) isn't much use either, for this
particular task.

> If not, I certainly don't think it's worth the time to
> change it by hand.

Well no, some scripting support is certainly required unless
you are *very* bored.  But that shouldn't be too hard to write.

Yours,
  Ingo

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Re: PDF FAQ [Was: Donations to OpenBSD]

Mihai Popescu-3
In reply to this post by Norman Gray
To OP:
I think you are polluting the list for nothing. Renaming threads is
also awkward since you can't follow them.

Let me clarify for you: all that OpenBSD developers can offer is
already out for free. They asked for your (our) donations to keep the
project going on and they did that with no condition, it is just your
free will to donate.
The CD and poster stuff is only the top cherry from the cake. There
are many ways to donate and yet you are asking for more and try to
suggest crazy things. The simple fact is that you need to send money,
and CD are a way to redirect some money to one main developer. This is
it, no big deal. If you want to send 50 euro, it's either donation or
CD buy. It does not matter much what you are getting back for this
money, since all is already there for free, it does matter when it
comes for developers to pay for expenses.

So, you saying that you want a paperback instead of CDs is writting
out of boring. Just send the money and print yourself a copy from the
project's web page. This way both parts will be happy. Your little
"project" must be maintained also, FAQ is a changing information, it
needs another resources and maintainers. Go figure for yourself the
costs. Let the already involved people decide what is best for the
project and then obey their advices if you can afford.

Thanks.

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Re: PDF FAQ [Was: Donations to OpenBSD]

Nick Holland
In reply to this post by Norman Gray
On 08/16/14 14:00, Norman Gray wrote:
...

> At <http://nxg.me.uk/temp/openbsd-faq-suggestion/> you will find,
> for your delectation and delight:
>
>   * A PDF of sections 1--5 of the FAQ;
>   * An HTML version of this;
>   * A tarball containing the source of the scripts which generate these
>   from XML originals.
>
> The idea of the PDF is that it's something which could potentially
> be sold on dead trees (which might be useful/attractive for the
> reasons above).

I used to generate PDF files of the FAQ.  I stopped this a few years
ago, when I decided that the use of PDF files was not to be encouraged
in any way, shape or form.  Adobe writes crap code and does what they
can to push it onto as many computers as they can.  It has become a
popular place to find zero-day exploits permitting undetected entry into
corporate computer systems.  And looking at how people use PDF files, it
just isn't needed.

(trivial example of the use of a PDF exploit: Phish a department for
e-mail access.  Get a few sets of e-mail creds, log into their webmail.
 Find a PDF someone sent to the entire department (or company!) about an
office event.  Pull it down, weaponize it, and then RESEND the PDF file
via e-mail to the exact same people it was sent to before, with the
subject line, "Updated office event info!".  Who WOULDN'T feel safe
opening this?  It's from a coworker about something you know is legit.
Ta-da, almost every computer in the department is now infected.)

Now, this is in no way an OpenBSD problem, Adobe Flash and PDF code do
not run on OpenBSD (thank goodness!), but I will do nothing to encourage
the use of this format anywhere, as long as Adobe is a major supplier of
readers on major platforms, and as long as their corporate attitude
towards security is, "Wah-wah-wah, everyone's picking on me!"

Anything involving PDF files will NOT have my personal blessing.

You also need to look at the license of the FAQ and website material --
most of it is released just under standard copyright, so any
redistribution requires the permission of the copyright holder.

Nick.

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Re: PDF FAQ

Norman Gray
In reply to this post by Ingo Schwarze
Adam and Ingo, hello.

On 2014 Aug 16, at 22:20, Ingo Schwarze <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Adam Thompson wrote on Sat, Aug 16, 2014 at 03:27:46PM -0500:
>> On 14-08-16 01:01 PM, Norman Gray wrote:
>
>>> To do this, I took the HTML versions of the FAQ sections, and
>>> normalised them into regular XHTML (which makes them processable
>>> into other forms).  With that done, it was straightforward to
>>> transform the result into both HTML for presentation, and into LaTeX
>>> for further transformation into PDF.  This depends on the xsltproc
>>> package, and obviously on LaTeX.
>> [...]
>>> It would be pretty straightforward to generate a .txt FAQ from these
>>> same sources (via *roff).
>
> Regarding the OP's mail, TL;DR (and too complicated).

OK:

  * I tidied up/normalised the existing HTML
  * ... so it was easy to transform it to consistent HTML for presentation, with generated ToC
  * ...and easy to generate a version intended for print

This was originally in the service of the suggestion that a printable version would be a thing that the project could potentially sell alongside CDs, to raise money.

>> I believe work on doclifter(1) and docbook2mdoc(1) is already in
>> consideration,
>
> That would be me.

Docbook is a reasonable suggestion, and intended for this sort of thing, but it's a _big_ DTD, so rather a heavyweight solution, and would create a dependency on the external Docbook stylesheets.  The FAQ isn't structurally complicated enough to really warrant Docbook -- an HTML subset is the right tool for this job, and a couple of simple stylesheets do all the transformation that's required.

And it would require an upconversion step, as you point out.  Whereas the text already exists as HTML., and now as XHTML.

>> If not, I certainly don't think it's worth the time to
>> change it by hand.
>
> Well no, some scripting support is certainly required unless
> you are *very* bored.  But that shouldn't be too hard to write.


Indeed, and I've just written that.

(This particular conversion was done by using TagSoup to convert the text to XML, and then some emacs regexp-replace to do the remaining tidyups.  Slightly tedious, but a one-time task.).

All the best,

Norman


--
Norman Gray  :  http://nxg.me.uk
SUPA School of Physics and Astronomy, University of Glasgow, UK

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Re: PDF FAQ [Was: Donations to OpenBSD]

Norman Gray
In reply to this post by Nick Holland
Nick, hello.

On 2014 Aug 17, at 11:02, Nick Holland <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I used to generate PDF files of the FAQ.  I stopped this a few years
> ago, when I decided that the use of PDF files was not to be encouraged
> in any way, shape or form.  Adobe writes crap code and does what they
> can to push it onto as many computers as they can.  It has become a
> popular place to find zero-day exploits permitting undetected entry into
> corporate computer systems.  And looking at how people use PDF files, it
> just isn't needed.

Well yes, but those are problems with Adobe's dreadful reader, not with the (standardised) format itself.

It's for this reason that no-one should use Adobe's reader if they can possibly help it.  But there are other PDF implementations.

> You also need to look at the license of the FAQ and website material --
> most of it is released just under standard copyright, so any
> redistribution requires the permission of the copyright holder.

But I'm not planning to distribute anything.  The temporary URL I posted was to demo the results of the suggestion I was making.

To be clear, I'm proposing that the XHTML version of the FAQ text would potentially be usable as the master version, and used to generate HTML and any other formats that were desirable (such as a PDF, or a text version via *roff).

All the best,

Norman


--
Norman Gray  :  http://nxg.me.uk
SUPA School of Physics and Astronomy, University of Glasgow, UK

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