Why I abandoned OpenBSD, and why you should too...

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Re: new topic: blind support for OpenBSD.

opendaddy
The ironic thing is that OpenBSD is being widely used in the world's largest tissue engineering labs -- which, and as crazy as it might seem, should be able to generate new eyes for blind people (based on their existing cells) in 5-10 years from now.

O.D.

On 7. juli 2013 at 11:41 AM, "ropers" <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
>You could try buying a USB-to-serial adapter or two. Simpler ones
>aren't that expensive. These generally have limitations for
>technical/electrical reasons: E.g. some serial devices may expect
>to
>be able to draw more juice than USB ports have. The gold standard
>would be an optically isolated adapter with transient voltage
>suppressors and an independent power supply – but using even a
>simple
>one just for console redirection ought to work. Ought to. I haven't
>actually tried this and I do not currently own a USB-to-serial
>adapter.
>
>Anyway, you would stick one of these into your laptop and then
>connect
>a null modem cable from that to another computer that has a serial
>port. If your desktop computer doesn't have a serial port (WTF?
>I've
>never heard of that.), then you could do the same thing in reverse
>with another USB-to-serial adapter. Once you have the console
>redirected to serial, you could use a terminal emulator in
>connection
>with a screen reader to actually read that console output to you on
>the other computer at the other end of the cable.
>
>To be really good for you, this might however require a change in
>the
>installer: Maybe the "Change the default console to com0?" question
>could be moved "up" or duplicated, i.e. it would be asked very
>early
>on, pretty much as the first installer question, and there would
>take
>effect immediately, and maybe beep as well when asked. This would
>be a
>change to the installer (that I can't submit), but it oughtn't
>really
>take up that much additional space on the boot floppy.
>
>I admit this is idle speculation from an almost good-for-nothing
>hanger-on, but I thought I'd share these ideas; maybe they'll end
>up
>actually helping you.
>
>I know this would be relying on you retrofitting legacy tech
>(RS232),
>and I admit that the inclusion of full-on native screen reader and
>Braille terminal support in some installer USB stick might be
>easier
>for you, but in terms of the least effort overall to get something
>that works, the console redirection might be easier overall, since
>building and maintaining an all-singing, all-dancing USB stick
>installer with all that good stuff included (and vetted for
>vulnerabilities) would be a lot more additional work.
>
>Good luck!
>ropers
>
>On 7 July 2013 04:43, eric oyen <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> what hardware? my laptop machine. also, its new enough that the
>only serial it
>> has is USB (which, as far as I know, doesn't support sserial
>redirection). I
>> also have a desktop machine and its new enough not to have any
>classic serial
>> ports either. so, no redirection there either.
>> and since there is no way for me to actually tell when it boots,
>getting to a
>> login prompt and then redirecting the screen output is not
>entirely possible
>> without someone sitting right there to tell me whats going on.
>>
>> This isn't anything like the old sparc pizza boxes where you
>could do this at
>> the outset and actually have it work the first time.
>>
>> anyway, thats the rub for me. I like the OS, but this is the
>show stopper for
>> me.
>>
>> -eric
>>
>> On Jul 6, 2013, at 5:49 PM, Alexander Hall wrote:
>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> Letting the installer redirect the console to com0 does not cut
>it? What
>> hardware are we talking about?
>>>
>>> /Alexander

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Re: new topic: blind support for OpenBSD.

Eric Oyen
In reply to this post by ropers
OK,
it appears that you haven't quite divined the issue here.

I am a trained IT person (this means help desk work, system administration, repair and other things including installations). So far, I am able to install OS X without assistance. I do same for Linux (various flavors) and can use a small utility called "Winstaller" to install a full windows image to a machine.

Now, some of the places that might hire me would expect me to be able to do all this on any OS. The only OS'es that I can't install with are the various flavors of BSD. So, this effectively limits my ability to perform the tasks that I may need to do. That, in turn, limits my ability to even become employed.

My point here is this: I am not just an end user but also one who will have to deal with this in the workplace.

Now, I know that the code has been around a long time and some of it may need to be tweaked to get it to conform with the BSD way of doing things. I am not a coder, so I can't just pick up a project and run with it.

This is my delema. I need to work but if I end up in a place where the only OS they want installed is the one OS I can't do without assistance, I would be fired and someone who can see the screen would get the job.

Now, some of the other things you mentioned make good sense and I will take that message as its meant. All I ask is that you consider larger issues here.

-eric


On Jul 7, 2013, at 4:40 AM, ropers wrote:

> You could try buying a USB-to-serial adapter or two. Simpler ones
> aren't that expensive. These generally have limitations for
> technical/electrical reasons: E.g. some serial devices may expect to
> be able to draw more juice than USB ports have. The gold standard
> would be an optically isolated adapter with transient voltage
> suppressors and an independent power supply – but using even a simple
> one just for console redirection ought to work. Ought to. I haven't
> actually tried this and I do not currently own a USB-to-serial
> adapter.
>
> Anyway, you would stick one of these into your laptop and then connect
> a null modem cable from that to another computer that has a serial
> port. If your desktop computer doesn't have a serial port (WTF? I've
> never heard of that.), then you could do the same thing in reverse
> with another USB-to-serial adapter. Once you have the console
> redirected to serial, you could use a terminal emulator in connection
> with a screen reader to actually read that console output to you on
> the other computer at the other end of the cable.
>
> To be really good for you, this might however require a change in the
> installer: Maybe the "Change the default console to com0?" question
> could be moved "up" or duplicated, i.e. it would be asked very early
> on, pretty much as the first installer question, and there would take
> effect immediately, and maybe beep as well when asked. This would be a
> change to the installer (that I can't submit), but it oughtn't really
> take up that much additional space on the boot floppy.
>
> I admit this is idle speculation from an almost good-for-nothing
> hanger-on, but I thought I'd share these ideas; maybe they'll end up
> actually helping you.
>
> I know this would be relying on you retrofitting legacy tech (RS232),
> and I admit that the inclusion of full-on native screen reader and
> Braille terminal support in some installer USB stick might be easier
> for you, but in terms of the least effort overall to get something
> that works, the console redirection might be easier overall, since
> building and maintaining an all-singing, all-dancing USB stick
> installer with all that good stuff included (and vetted for
> vulnerabilities) would be a lot more additional work.
>
> Good luck!
> ropers
>
> On 7 July 2013 04:43, eric oyen <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> what hardware? my laptop machine. also, its new enough that the only serial it
>> has is USB (which, as far as I know, doesn't support sserial redirection). I
>> also have a desktop machine and its new enough not to have any classic serial
>> ports either. so, no redirection there either.
>> and since there is no way for me to actually tell when it boots, getting to a
>> login prompt and then redirecting the screen output is not entirely possible
>> without someone sitting right there to tell me whats going on.
>>
>> This isn't anything like the old sparc pizza boxes where you could do this at
>> the outset and actually have it work the first time.
>>
>> anyway, thats the rub for me. I like the OS, but this is the show stopper for
>> me.
>>
>> -eric
>>
>> On Jul 6, 2013, at 5:49 PM, Alexander Hall wrote:
>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> Letting the installer redirect the console to com0 does not cut it? What
>> hardware are we talking about?
>>>
>>> /Alexander

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Re: Why I abandoned OpenBSD, and why you should too...

William Cummings
In reply to this post by Tito Mari Francis Escano-2
Troll or OpenBSD security expert....... Flip a coin!

On Jul 5, 2013, at 12:28 AM, Tito Mari Francis Escaño <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I was initially thinking this is a troll, but with these quotes:
>
> "...was prepping to migrate the whole of our shop, a regional ISP in the
> United States of America, to OpenBSD 5.3..."
>
> Pray tell what regional ISP you speak of here to earn their deserved
> praise or ridicule for avoiding the OpenBSD deployment.
>
> "OpenBSD has shipped on over half of all network devices, including
> things like routers, switches, gateways, and servers, for the last six
> years. The current estimated number of OpenBSD installations sits at
> over 350 million devices, comprising an almost ubiquitous presence of
> OpenBSD in networks worldwide"
>
> I wondered if Theo or the OpenBSD Foundation has budget to pay for
> publicity, good or bad, just for the kicks.

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Re: Why I abandoned OpenBSD, and why you should too...

Salim Shaw-2
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Surely, it's obvious to everyone. It's a TROLL, so get over it and carry
on with the magnificence that OpenBSD provides. If had any validity, a
professional approach what have been exhibited. So, when experiencing
unworthy garbage, treat it as such.

Good Day,

On 07/07/2013 01:55 PM, William Cummings wrote:
> Troll or OpenBSD security expert....... Flip a coin!
>
>  On Jul 5, 2013, at 12:28 AM, Tito Mari Francis Escaño
<[hidden email]> wrote:

>
>> I was initially thinking this is a troll, but with these quotes:
>>
>> "...was prepping to migrate the whole of our shop, a regional ISP in the
>> United States of America, to OpenBSD 5.3..."
>>
>> Pray tell what regional ISP you speak of here to earn their deserved
>> praise or ridicule for avoiding the OpenBSD deployment.
>>
>> "OpenBSD has shipped on over half of all network devices, including
>> things like routers, switches, gateways, and servers, for the last six
>> years. The current estimated number of OpenBSD installations sits at
>> over 350 million devices, comprising an almost ubiquitous presence of
>> OpenBSD in networks worldwide"
>>
>> I wondered if Theo or the OpenBSD Foundation has budget to pay for
>> publicity, good or bad, just for the kicks.
>


- --
Salim A. Shaw
System Administrator
OpenBSD & CentOS / Free Software Advocate
Need stability and security -- Try OpenBSD.
BSD,ISC license all the way: Sell services, don't lease secrets
Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/

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Re: Why I abandoned OpenBSD, and why you should too...

Lionel Hutchence
In reply to this post by Thomas Jennings
Dear "Thomas,"

Plagiarise much lately?

http://www.trollaxor.com/2013/07/why-i-abandoned-openbsd-and-why-you.html

-Lionel


On Thu, Jul 4, 2013 at 11:56 PM, Thomas Jennings
<[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> Dear OpenBSD developers and users:
>
> Regretfully, I have decided to abandon OpenBSD and thought I would
> share my reasoning with this list. I thought the 4th of July was a
> good date to do so since my reasons address national security
> implications. As a group of people who take development, security, and
> privacy seriously, I know you will want to know why I made the drastic
> decision to abandon OpenBSD and never look back.
>
> I'm sure we've all heard of PRISM by now, the user-friendly name of
> the United States Federal Government's massive civilian and resident
> spying program otherwise known as US-984XN. PRISM is certainly bad
> enough of its own accord, but it's how PRISM works, and the pattern of
> behavior found in OpenBSD development, that was the tipping point for
> my use of OpenBSD.
>
> And we all know Theo de Raadt, OpenBSD generalissimo of much infamy.
> After being fired from the NetBSD team, Theo forked the code and
> started OpenBSD. He's been pretty much solely responsible for
> development of OpenBSD over the years, taking volunteer code as he
> sees fit. He also has final say over security audits in the operating
> system, something that turns out to be very important.
>
> I was prepping to migrate the whole of our shop, a regional ISP in the
> United States of America, to OpenBSD 5.3 when the news broke: CBS News
> reporter Sharyl Attkisson claimed, during a live radio interview, that
> she had been dealing with suspicious computer and phone issues. Check
> out this snippet from the full transcript of the interview. One line
> in particular trashed my plans for the OpenBSD upgrade:
>
> > Well, I have been, as I said, pursuing an issue for a long time now — much longer
> > than you’ve been hearing about this in the news — with some compromising of my
> > computer systems in my house — my personal computer systems as well as my
> > work computer systems. I thought they were immune to being compromised —
> > because they all ran OpenBSD — but I guess I was wrong. So, we’re digging into
> > that and just not ready to say much more right now, but I am concerned.
>
> Since that interview in May, I've watched story after story of direct
> server access, PRISM, and NSA spying and connected some dots. For
> example, consider the accusations that the FBI had been accused of
> planting backdoors in OpenBSD's IPSEC in December of 2012, and that
> the accusations later proved true. The two scandals broke 18 only
> months apart.
>
> Consider that PRISM allows the United States Federal Government to
> directly access the servers of virtually any company doing online
> business, including tech giants like Apple, Facebook, Google, and
> Microsoft. But those same tech giants deny complicity. I'm sure we all
> agree that personal privacy is beyond the scope of private enterprise,
> but let's assume their denials are true. Then connect more dots:
>
> OpenBSD has shipped on over half of all network devices, including
> things like routers, switches, gateways, and servers, for the last six
> years. The current estimated number of OpenBSD installations sits at
> over 350 million devices, comprising an almost ubiquitous presence of
> OpenBSD in networks worldwide.
>
> EVEN IF NO CORPORATION OFFERS THE UNITED STATE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT
> DIRECT ACCESS TO ITS SERVERS THROUGH PRISM, OPENBSD OFFERS THAT SAME
> ACCESS THROUGH THE PRESENCE OF ITS BACKDOORS.
>
> There it is. Let it sink in. Words like Gestapo and Stasi and KGB come
> to mind. OpenBSD is part and parcel to the United States Federal
> Government's program to spy on its own citizens through bodies like
> the NSA and FBI and has been since the FBI paid for backdoors in IPSEC
> about a dozen years ago.
>
> Yesterday, I told the company that we must migrate all our services
> from OpenBSD to something else because the risk to our customers'
> privacy and security is simply unacceptable. Theo de Raadt may seem
> like some kind of guard dog of security, but he's really just a little
> bitch bought and sold by the United State Federal Government.
>
> The kicker is that Theo denies anything suggesting that OpenBSD is
> less than perfect at security, as if he's personally offended by the
> mere suggestion. He routinely attacks developers and enthusiasts for
> simply asking questions. WHY SO TOUCHY, THEO? COULD IT BE BECAUSE
> YOU'RE COMPLICIT IN THE BIGGEST CITIZEN SPYING PROGRAM EVER RUN IN THE
> HISTORY OF THE WORLD?!
>
> Today, be a true patriot to the ideals of personal privacy and public
> liberty: prevent and reject any and all use of OpenBSD.
>
> Happy 4th of July.

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Re: Why I abandoned OpenBSD, and why you should too...

Chris Cappuccio
Lionel Hutchence [[hidden email]] wrote:
> Dear "Thomas,"
>
> Plagiarise much lately?
>
> http://www.trollaxor.com/2013/07/why-i-abandoned-openbsd-and-why-you.html
>

Stop giving Grant so much attention. He's too busy wishing that OpenBSD,
FreeBSD, NetBSD and Dragonfly would merge into one project.

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