Why I abandoned OpenBSD, and why you should too...

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Re: Why I abandoned OpenBSD, and why you should too...

David Coppa
On Fri, Jul 5, 2013 at 10:46 AM, John Long <[hidden email]> wrote:
> On Thu, Jul 04, 2013 at 11:56:50PM -0400, Thomas Jennings wrote:
>
> [drug / alcohol withdrawal-induced rant elided]
>
> I don't know where you get the idea OpenBSD is involved. I heard a few
> interviews including the one here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ISXYITh09TA
> and she clearly said she has an Apple system.

Guys, what part of "THIS IS A TROLL" don't you understand?

Let him die, please.

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Re: Why I abandoned OpenBSD, and why you should too...

Dmitrij D. Czarkoff-2
In reply to this post by Thomas Jennings
On Fri, Jul 5, 2013 at 4:56 AM, Thomas Jennings
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> CBS News reporter Sharyl Attkisson claimed, during a live radio
> interview, that she had been dealing with suspicious computer and phone
> issues. Check out this snippet from the full transcript of the interview.
> One line in particular trashed my plans for the OpenBSD upgrade:
>
>> Well, I have been, as I said, pursuing an issue for a long time now — much longer
>> than you’ve been hearing about this in the news — with some compromising of my
>> computer systems in my house — my personal computer systems as well as my
>> work computer systems. I thought they were immune to being compromised —
>> because they all ran OpenBSD — but I guess I was wrong. So, we’re digging into
>> that and just not ready to say much more right now, but I am concerned.

FWIW the original quote can be fund here[0]. I expected to see some
other product name replaced with "OpenBSD" by the troll, but it turned
out that the whole sentence is missing from original interview.

[0] http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/erik-wemple/wp/2013/05/29/sharyl-attkisson-and-her-compromised-computers/

--
Dmitrij D. Czarkoff

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Re: Why I abandoned OpenBSD, and why you should too...

Gilles Chehade-7
On Fri, Jul 05, 2013 at 09:58:50AM +0100, Dmitrij Czarkoff wrote:

> On Fri, Jul 5, 2013 at 4:56 AM, Thomas Jennings
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > CBS News reporter Sharyl Attkisson claimed, during a live radio
> > interview, that she had been dealing with suspicious computer and phone
> > issues. Check out this snippet from the full transcript of the interview.
> > One line in particular trashed my plans for the OpenBSD upgrade:
> >
> >> Well, I have been, as I said, pursuing an issue for a long time now ??? much longer
> >> than you???ve been hearing about this in the news ??? with some compromising of my
> >> computer systems in my house ??? my personal computer systems as well as my
> >> work computer systems. I thought they were immune to being compromised ???
> >> because they all ran OpenBSD ??? but I guess I was wrong. So, we???re digging into
> >> that and just not ready to say much more right now, but I am concerned.
>
> FWIW the original quote can be fund here[0]. I expected to see some
> other product name replaced with "OpenBSD" by the troll, but it turned
> out that the whole sentence is missing from original interview.
>
> [0] http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/erik-wemple/wp/2013/05/29/sharyl-attkisson-and-her-compromised-computers/
>

seriously, who fucking cares.
let this thread die

--
Gilles Chehade

https://www.poolp.org                                          @poolpOrg

jV
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Re: Why I abandoned OpenBSD, and why you should too...

jV
In reply to this post by Dmitrij D. Czarkoff-2
Why you keep feeding troll guys ??

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Re: Why I abandoned OpenBSD, and why you should too...

Eric Furman-3
In reply to this post by Zamri Besar
Please stop do not reply
this is an annual event.
Every year an email is sent with this same subject.
It might be slightly beleivabele if it did not
devovle into ad hominem attackes on Theo.
Yes, Theo is an asshole.
but that is irelelevant.
Most geniuses are assholes.




On Fri, Jul 5, 2013, at 12:44 AM, Zamri Besar wrote:

> On Fri, Jul 5, 2013 at 12:28 PM, Tito Mari Francis Escaño <
> [hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > I was initially thinking this is a troll, but with these quotes:
> >
>
>
> I vote for another troll... but... this year April Fool was over 3 months
> ago.
>
> --
> Thank you.
>
> Zamri Besar

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Re: Why I abandoned OpenBSD, and why you should too...

Riccardo Mottola
In reply to this post by James Griffin-2
Hi James,

James Griffin wrote:

> ................Thu  4.Jul'13 at 23:56:50 -0400, Thomas Jennings................
>> Dear OpenBSD developers and users:
>>
>> Regretfully, I have decided to abandon OpenBSD and thought I would
>> share my reasoning with this list. I thought the 4th of July was a
>> good date to do so since my reasons address national security
>> implications. As a group of people who take development, security, and
>> privacy seriously, I know you will want to know why I made the drastic
>> decision to abandon OpenBSD and never look back.
> [ ... ]
>
> Then you'd also better stop using mobile phones, landlines, using search
> engines, email ... come to think of it, any form of electronic
> comminucation, and go back to living in the woods or in a cave and
> clubbing your wife with large peices of wood if you're so concerned
> about the security services.
>

Right, more or less. Even acknowledging the mail as a troll, I had a
couple of thoughts.
There may be hidden doors inside RSA and derived algorithms and
protocols we don't know. So I cannot exclude implicit backdoors inside
OpenBSD (not explicit in the code, those would have been caught by the
open source).

But if you worry about that, and I think it is legitimate, what else?
Our cousings FreeBSD and NetBSD use the same public libraries. As does
Linux. Solaris, AIX and HP-UPX perhaps use a mix of opensource and
proprietary libraries, but most certainly based on the same algorithms.
Thus what would be the mysterious  OS alternative, except writing your
own cypher algorithm, outside the USA?

Riccardo

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Re: Why I abandoned OpenBSD, and why you should too...

polken
In reply to this post by Marko Cupać
Totally agree with Marko the same for me but i do make a mistake and the BAND
a lot answers even theo answered to kick my ass! by the way dont u have some
uvm_alloc situation on your server?

> Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2013 09:05:11 +0200
> From: [hidden email]
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: Why I abandoned OpenBSD, and why you should too...
>
> I find it sad that it is now third day that noone responded to my
> call for help with system hang, at least something like "ask on bugs
> list", while threads like this get 15 responses in a matter of hours :(

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Re: Why I abandoned OpenBSD, and why you should too...

Özgür Kazanççı
In reply to this post by Thomas Jennings
"...to OpenBSD 5.3 when the news broke: CBS News
reporter Sharyl Attkisson claimed, during a live radio interview, that
she had been dealing with suspicious computer and phone issues..."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7vNOBBB5FgY&t=51s




On Fri, Jul 5, 2013 at 6:56 AM, Thomas Jennings <
[hidden email]> wrote:

> Dear OpenBSD developers and users:
>
> Regretfully, I have decided to abandon OpenBSD and thought I would
> share my reasoning with this list. I thought the 4th of July was a
> good date to do so since my reasons address national security
> implications. As a group of people who take development, security, and
> privacy seriously, I know you will want to know why I made the drastic
> decision to abandon OpenBSD and never look back.
>
> I'm sure we've all heard of PRISM by now, the user-friendly name of
> the United States Federal Government's massive civilian and resident
> spying program otherwise known as US-984XN. PRISM is certainly bad
> enough of its own accord, but it's how PRISM works, and the pattern of
> behavior found in OpenBSD development, that was the tipping point for
> my use of OpenBSD.
>
> And we all know Theo de Raadt, OpenBSD generalissimo of much infamy.
> After being fired from the NetBSD team, Theo forked the code and
> started OpenBSD. He's been pretty much solely responsible for
> development of OpenBSD over the years, taking volunteer code as he
> sees fit. He also has final say over security audits in the operating
> system, something that turns out to be very important.
>
> I was prepping to migrate the whole of our shop, a regional ISP in the
> United States of America, to OpenBSD 5.3 when the news broke: CBS News
> reporter Sharyl Attkisson claimed, during a live radio interview, that
> she had been dealing with suspicious computer and phone issues. Check
> out this snippet from the full transcript of the interview. One line
> in particular trashed my plans for the OpenBSD upgrade:
>
> > Well, I have been, as I said, pursuing an issue for a long time now —
> much longer
> > than you’ve been hearing about this in the news — with some compromising
> of my
> > computer systems in my house — my personal computer systems as well as my
> > work computer systems. I thought they were immune to being compromised —
> > because they all ran OpenBSD — but I guess I was wrong. So, we’re
> digging into
> > that and just not ready to say much more right now, but I am concerned.
>
> Since that interview in May, I've watched story after story of direct
> server access, PRISM, and NSA spying and connected some dots. For
> example, consider the accusations that the FBI had been accused of
> planting backdoors in OpenBSD's IPSEC in December of 2012, and that
> the accusations later proved true. The two scandals broke 18 only
> months apart.
>
> Consider that PRISM allows the United States Federal Government to
> directly access the servers of virtually any company doing online
> business, including tech giants like Apple, Facebook, Google, and
> Microsoft. But those same tech giants deny complicity. I'm sure we all
> agree that personal privacy is beyond the scope of private enterprise,
> but let's assume their denials are true. Then connect more dots:
>
> OpenBSD has shipped on over half of all network devices, including
> things like routers, switches, gateways, and servers, for the last six
> years. The current estimated number of OpenBSD installations sits at
> over 350 million devices, comprising an almost ubiquitous presence of
> OpenBSD in networks worldwide.
>
> EVEN IF NO CORPORATION OFFERS THE UNITED STATE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT
> DIRECT ACCESS TO ITS SERVERS THROUGH PRISM, OPENBSD OFFERS THAT SAME
> ACCESS THROUGH THE PRESENCE OF ITS BACKDOORS.
>
> There it is. Let it sink in. Words like Gestapo and Stasi and KGB come
> to mind. OpenBSD is part and parcel to the United States Federal
> Government's program to spy on its own citizens through bodies like
> the NSA and FBI and has been since the FBI paid for backdoors in IPSEC
> about a dozen years ago.
>
> Yesterday, I told the company that we must migrate all our services
> from OpenBSD to something else because the risk to our customers'
> privacy and security is simply unacceptable. Theo de Raadt may seem
> like some kind of guard dog of security, but he's really just a little
> bitch bought and sold by the United State Federal Government.
>
> The kicker is that Theo denies anything suggesting that OpenBSD is
> less than perfect at security, as if he's personally offended by the
> mere suggestion. He routinely attacks developers and enthusiasts for
> simply asking questions. WHY SO TOUCHY, THEO? COULD IT BE BECAUSE
> YOU'RE COMPLICIT IN THE BIGGEST CITIZEN SPYING PROGRAM EVER RUN IN THE
> HISTORY OF THE WORLD?!
>
> Today, be a true patriot to the ideals of personal privacy and public
> liberty: prevent and reject any and all use of OpenBSD.
>
> Happy 4th of July

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Re: Why I abandoned OpenBSD, and why you should too...

P. Pruett
In reply to this post by Ryan R
OH MY -
  did not know it was TROLL hunting season...

    SO Like I heard a rumor that FaceBook is going to release an open
source operating system
because we all know how secure from NSA it will be...

LMAO
   feed the trolls.


On 7/5/2013 12:14 AM, Ryan R wrote:
> Dear OpenBSD developers and users:
> >
> >Regretfully, I have decided to abandon OpenBSD and thought I would

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Re: Why I abandoned OpenBSD, and why you should too...

Rudolf Leitgeb
In reply to this post by Douglas Allen
NSA would be foolish to go through all the effort it takes to place a
back door into OpenBSD. I find it funny how people focus on potential
back doors in software and completely ignore that all this software is
executed on micro processors that are made by a select handful of US
companies. We also have no idea what's really going on in peripheral
components of our computers or in networking hardware.

Use OpenBSD if you want to keep out the common criminal but don't fool
yourself that you can outwit three letter agencies with your laptops.

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Re: Why I abandoned OpenBSD, and why you should too...

gjones5555
In reply to this post by P. Pruett
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Re: Why I abandoned OpenBSD, and why you should too...

Benjamin Heath
In reply to this post by Thomas Jennings
Sent from a gmail address, just to season this with a little irony.

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Re: Why I abandoned OpenBSD, and why you should too...

Alexander Hall
In reply to this post by Eric Oyen
On 07/05/13 09:04, eric oyen wrote:

> Sighted assistance. It simply means that I am blind (as in I wear
> prosthetic eyes and can't see a thing). I can use most of my
> equipment here with either some screen reader access or braille.
> Unfortunately, that can't be said for installation and first time
> configuration of OpenBSD (the man AfterBoot process). Only after
> SSH is enabled can I do anything with the machine. It certainly
> would be a lot better if OpenBSD supported a general CLI screen
> reader right from boot up. I do know that enough of the hardware
> gets detected to at least support this. Unfortunately, I am not
> a coder, so I can't really try this without some help. Running a
> compiler script (configure, make and make install) are easy
> enough from a CLI SSH session, but unless I can run a package
> immediately after the OS has completely booted and given me a
> login prompt, I am literally operating in the blind zone.

Letting the installer redirect the console to com0 does not cut it? What
hardware are we talking about?

/Alexander

>
>This is what I mean by sighted assistance. So right now, if I
>  can't do it myself, whats the point?
>
> -eric
>
>
> On Jul 4, 2013, at 10:09 PM,[hidden email]  wrote:
>
>> >On 5. juli 2013 at 4:59 AM, "eric oyen"<[hidden email]>  wrote:
>>> >>
>>> >>My only problem (and it seems none of the devs really understand this)
>>> >>is that I must have sighted assistance to install and initially configure the OS.
>> >
>> >What do you mean sighted assistance?
>> >
>> >O.D.

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new topic: blind support for OpenBSD.

Eric Oyen
what hardware? my laptop machine. also, its new enough that the only serial it
has is USB (which, as far as I know, doesn't support sserial redirection). I
also have a desktop machine and its new enough not to have any classic serial
ports either. so, no redirection there either.
and since there is no way for me to actually tell when it boots, getting to a
login prompt and then redirecting the screen output is not entirely possible
without someone sitting right there to tell me whats going on.

This isn't anything like the old sparc pizza boxes where you could do this at
the outset and actually have it work the first time.

anyway, thats the rub for me. I like the OS, but this is the show stopper for
me.

-eric

On Jul 6, 2013, at 5:49 PM, Alexander Hall wrote:

>>
>
> Letting the installer redirect the console to com0 does not cut it? What
hardware are we talking about?
>
> /Alexander

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Re: Why I abandoned OpenBSD, and why you should too...

Chris Cappuccio
In reply to this post by Thomas Jennings
Thomas Jennings [[hidden email]] wrote:
> Dear OpenBSD developers and users:
>
> Happy 4th of July.

Thomas,

I don't understand why you make such a breach of OpenBSD list etiquette. We
all know these posts belong on tech@, not misc@

Please behave yourself better next time.

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Re: new topic: blind support for OpenBSD.

Eric Oyen
In reply to this post by Eric Oyen
I have tried windows XP with NVDA on that laptop. I have also tried Vinux on there as well. Windows did to me the same thing that OpenBSD does. I had to have someone else install it (ugh!). Vinux was a bit better as it allowed me to install using orca speech on a live dvd. The problem is that I want something a bit more secure and a lot more powerful (hello! OpenBSD) Windows is not useful for me and Vinux has some package and support issues going on right now. so, I want something that is secure (OpenBSD), stable (OpenBSD again) and perfect for the blind user (with the addition of speech/braille of course). With the exception of the last, OpenBSD would be perfect for me. Its stable, doesn't require a fancy graphical interface to run and has plenty of available ports that work. what more could a blind power computer user want?

-eric

> Have you tried other OS besides openbsd where everything worked during install? If so, you can point that out to Alexander Hall who is one of those who commit to the installer.
>
> On Sat, 6 Jul 2013 19:43:07 -0700
> eric oyen <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> what hardware? my laptop machine. also, its new enough that the only serial it
>> has is USB (which, as far as I know, doesn't support sserial redirection). I
>> also have a desktop machine and its new enough not to have any classic serial
>> ports either. so, no redirection there either.
>> and since there is no way for me to actually tell when it boots, getting to a
>> login prompt and then redirecting the screen output is not entirely possible
>> without someone sitting right there to tell me whats going on.
>>
>> This isn't anything like the old sparc pizza boxes where you could do this at
>> the outset and actually have it work the first time.
>>
>> anyway, thats the rub for me. I like the OS, but this is the show stopper for
>> me.
>>
>> -eric
>>
>> On Jul 6, 2013, at 5:49 PM, Alexander Hall wrote:
>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> Letting the installer redirect the console to com0 does not cut it? What
>> hardware are we talking about?
>>>
>>> /Alexander
>>
>
>
> --
> Amit Kulkarni <[hidden email]>

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Re: new topic: blind support for OpenBSD.

Nick Holland
Keeping in mind that that those of us who have not had the opportunity
to work with computer tools used by the blind or visually challenged
know very little about them, so naming names of products by themselves
doesn't help us understand the process well...what would the "ideal"
solution look like to you?

Modern hardware seems to be a problem here, too... I don't think we can
do anything about that.

I don't think OpenBSD is going to give up the "One Floppy Install" any
time soon, nor do I think we will cram a text-to-speech reader into a
floppy (or even a bsd.rd), so I'm doubting a pure OpenBSD solution will
be coming soon, but it might be possible to have an independent OpenBSD
installer, perhaps a "live" USB media, which might provide clues and
assistance for an install for OpenBSD and initial package install.
Ideally, this would be in a moderately release-independent form, so it
wouldn't have to be updated for each snapshot.

On the other hand, an option to simply beep or chirp at the login prompt
when the system is ready for you might be helpful, too, and might be
able to be added to the base system (though off by default!)

Feel free to take this off list with me if you prefer.

Nick.


On 07/06/13 23:54, eric oyen wrote:

> I have tried windows XP with NVDA on that laptop. I have also tried
> Vinux on there as well. Windows did to me the same thing that OpenBSD
> does. I had to have someone else install it (ugh!). Vinux was a bit
> better as it allowed me to install using orca speech on a live dvd.
> The problem is that I want something a bit more secure and a lot more
> powerful (hello! OpenBSD) Windows is not useful for me and Vinux has
> some package and support issues going on right now. so, I want
> something that is secure (OpenBSD), stable (OpenBSD again) and
> perfect for the blind user (with the addition of speech/braille of
> course). With the exception of the last, OpenBSD would be perfect for
> me. Its stable, doesn't require a fancy graphical interface to run
> and has plenty of available ports that work. what more could a blind
> power computer user want?
>
> -eric
>
>> Have you tried other OS besides openbsd where everything worked
>> during install? If so, you can point that out to Alexander Hall who
>> is one of those who commit to the installer.
>>
>> On Sat, 6 Jul 2013 19:43:07 -0700 eric oyen <[hidden email]>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> what hardware? my laptop machine. also, its new enough that the
>>> only serial it has is USB (which, as far as I know, doesn't
>>> support sserial redirection). I also have a desktop machine and
>>> its new enough not to have any classic serial ports either. so,
>>> no redirection there either. and since there is no way for me to
>>> actually tell when it boots, getting to a login prompt and then
>>> redirecting the screen output is not entirely possible without
>>> someone sitting right there to tell me whats going on.
>>>
>>> This isn't anything like the old sparc pizza boxes where you
>>> could do this at the outset and actually have it work the first
>>> time.
>>>
>>> anyway, thats the rub for me. I like the OS, but this is the show
>>> stopper for me.
>>>
>>> -eric
>>>
>>> On Jul 6, 2013, at 5:49 PM, Alexander Hall wrote:
>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Letting the installer redirect the console to com0 does not cut
>>>> it? What
>>> hardware are we talking about?
>>>>
>>>> /Alexander
>>>
>>
>>
>> -- Amit Kulkarni <[hidden email]>

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Re: new topic: blind support for OpenBSD.

Johan Beisser
On Jul 6, 2013, at 21:53, Nick Holland <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> Feel free to take this off list with me if you prefer.
>

I kind of hope you keep this on list, actually. While I'm not affected by the problem, I'm interested in the problem and solutions.

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Re: new topic: blind support for OpenBSD.

Eric Oyen
for X: GTK DM (gnome 3, fvwm or XFCE with ORCA (this for the X desktop) after
installation.
EMACSpeak for the CLI at system start.
I am not sure what packages would be available that could send data to the USB
port for a plug in braille display device. I may have to look around and see
whats available.

I did try speak up a long time ago (about 4 or 5 years back and it never
worked they way it could have (thats the problem with trying to compile a
linux package on BSD). It kept wanting a linux kernel module and the ugly hack
I tried (piping its output through sox instead) resulted in a very unstable
(and unworkable situation).
one project called BRLTTY has some promise for the console (command line). it
can be run as a background process and should be able to be piped via USB. THe
project is here:
BRLTTY - Official Home

I think BRLTTY may use a pluggable module system in linux. If so, there may
have to be changes made to get it working in BSD.

EMACSpeak is another project (located here: http://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/
).

There is also an excellent article on accessibility for the blind linux user
from boot up to shut down here: http://jasonjgw.net/lca/ ).

I hope this gives you some idea of what I am looking for.

On Jul 6, 2013, at 10:09 PM, Johan Beisser wrote:

> On Jul 6, 2013, at 21:53, Nick Holland <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>>
>> Feel free to take this off list with me if you prefer.
>>
>
> I kind of hope you keep this on list, actually. While I'm not affected by
the problem, I'm interested in the problem and solutions.

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Re: new topic: blind support for OpenBSD.

ropers
In reply to this post by Eric Oyen
You could try buying a USB-to-serial adapter or two. Simpler ones
aren't that expensive. These generally have limitations for
technical/electrical reasons: E.g. some serial devices may expect to
be able to draw more juice than USB ports have. The gold standard
would be an optically isolated adapter with transient voltage
suppressors and an independent power supply – but using even a simple
one just for console redirection ought to work. Ought to. I haven't
actually tried this and I do not currently own a USB-to-serial
adapter.

Anyway, you would stick one of these into your laptop and then connect
a null modem cable from that to another computer that has a serial
port. If your desktop computer doesn't have a serial port (WTF? I've
never heard of that.), then you could do the same thing in reverse
with another USB-to-serial adapter. Once you have the console
redirected to serial, you could use a terminal emulator in connection
with a screen reader to actually read that console output to you on
the other computer at the other end of the cable.

To be really good for you, this might however require a change in the
installer: Maybe the "Change the default console to com0?" question
could be moved "up" or duplicated, i.e. it would be asked very early
on, pretty much as the first installer question, and there would take
effect immediately, and maybe beep as well when asked. This would be a
change to the installer (that I can't submit), but it oughtn't really
take up that much additional space on the boot floppy.

I admit this is idle speculation from an almost good-for-nothing
hanger-on, but I thought I'd share these ideas; maybe they'll end up
actually helping you.

I know this would be relying on you retrofitting legacy tech (RS232),
and I admit that the inclusion of full-on native screen reader and
Braille terminal support in some installer USB stick might be easier
for you, but in terms of the least effort overall to get something
that works, the console redirection might be easier overall, since
building and maintaining an all-singing, all-dancing USB stick
installer with all that good stuff included (and vetted for
vulnerabilities) would be a lot more additional work.

Good luck!
ropers

On 7 July 2013 04:43, eric oyen <[hidden email]> wrote:

> what hardware? my laptop machine. also, its new enough that the only serial it
> has is USB (which, as far as I know, doesn't support sserial redirection). I
> also have a desktop machine and its new enough not to have any classic serial
> ports either. so, no redirection there either.
> and since there is no way for me to actually tell when it boots, getting to a
> login prompt and then redirecting the screen output is not entirely possible
> without someone sitting right there to tell me whats going on.
>
> This isn't anything like the old sparc pizza boxes where you could do this at
> the outset and actually have it work the first time.
>
> anyway, thats the rub for me. I like the OS, but this is the show stopper for
> me.
>
> -eric
>
> On Jul 6, 2013, at 5:49 PM, Alexander Hall wrote:
>
>>>
>>
>> Letting the installer redirect the console to com0 does not cut it? What
> hardware are we talking about?
>>
>> /Alexander

123