When will be created a great desktop experience for OpenBSD?

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Re: When will be created a great desktop experience for OpenBSD?

Christopher Turkel
On Thu, May 23, 2019 at 12:00 PM Ingo Schwarze <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> Patrick Harper wrote on Thu, May 23, 2019 at 04:50:54PM +0100:
>
> > I think OpenBSD could be made easier to set up for GUI applications
> > if some configuration that is currently done in files could be moved
> > to the install program.
>
> I very strongly oppose the idea.
>
> > These questions (or similar) could be shown
>
> Absolutely not.  The installer should ask as few questions as possible,
> ideally none whatsoever.  *That* is a way to simplify setup.
>
> The topics you mention have nothing to do with installation.
> They are merely low-importance user configuration that can be done
> at any time if desired.  But almost no user will ever have to consider
> any of those; i certainly didn't, ever, and i have been using many
> OpenBSD computers for almost two decades now, including with a wide
> variety of GUI applications.
>
> Yours,
>   Ingo
>
>
I actually like the idea of giving the user a choice of WMs if they install
X, but I agree its a low importance idea.
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Re: When will be created a great desktop experience for OpenBSD?

Patrick Harper
In reply to this post by Clark Block
No, the installation program should make setup as easy as possible. The idea of a common development platform for X being suited only for circa 100dpi screens in 2019 is ludicrous. Making users pore  through half-a-dozen man pages and config files to make their X systems usable on hidpi screens is ludicrous.

--
  Patrick Harper
  [hidden email]

On Thu, 23 May 2019, at 16:58, Ingo Schwarze wrote:

> Hi,
>
> Patrick Harper wrote on Thu, May 23, 2019 at 04:50:54PM +0100:
>
> > I think OpenBSD could be made easier to set up for GUI applications
> > if some configuration that is currently done in files could be moved
> > to the install program.
>
> I very strongly oppose the idea.
>
> > These questions (or similar) could be shown
>
> Absolutely not.  The installer should ask as few questions as possible,
> ideally none whatsoever.  *That* is a way to simplify setup.
>
> The topics you mention have nothing to do with installation.
> They are merely low-importance user configuration that can be done
> at any time if desired.  But almost no user will ever have to consider
> any of those; i certainly didn't, ever, and i have been using many
> OpenBSD computers for almost two decades now, including with a wide
> variety of GUI applications.
>
> Yours,
>   Ingo
>

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Re: When will be created a great desktop experience for OpenBSD?

Raul Miller
This looks like violent agreement. (It's perhaps worth noting that if
you change the first word here from "No" to "Yes" that the idea being
expressed does not change.)

Thanks,

--
Raul

On Thu, May 23, 2019 at 1:35 PM Patrick Harper <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> No, the installation program should make setup as easy as possible. The idea of a common development platform for X being suited only for circa 100dpi screens in 2019 is ludicrous. Making users pore  through half-a-dozen man pages and config files to make their X systems usable on hidpi screens is ludicrous.
>
> --
>   Patrick Harper
>   [hidden email]
>
> On Thu, 23 May 2019, at 16:58, Ingo Schwarze wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> > Patrick Harper wrote on Thu, May 23, 2019 at 04:50:54PM +0100:
> >
> > > I think OpenBSD could be made easier to set up for GUI applications
> > > if some configuration that is currently done in files could be moved
> > > to the install program.
> >
> > I very strongly oppose the idea.
> >
> > > These questions (or similar) could be shown
> >
> > Absolutely not.  The installer should ask as few questions as possible,
> > ideally none whatsoever.  *That* is a way to simplify setup.
> >
> > The topics you mention have nothing to do with installation.
> > They are merely low-importance user configuration that can be done
> > at any time if desired.  But almost no user will ever have to consider
> > any of those; i certainly didn't, ever, and i have been using many
> > OpenBSD computers for almost two decades now, including with a wide
> > variety of GUI applications.
> >
> > Yours,
> >   Ingo
> >
>

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SOLUTION (with code), WAS: Re: When will be created a great desktop experience for OpenBSD?

chohag
In reply to this post by Christopher Turkel
Here is a script you can all use which selects a desktop environment,
installs it if necessary, and configures a (eg. your) user's X session
so that it starts when he, she or you log in, facilitating further
user-centric configuration.

Perhaps if you ask really nicely the devs will install it into the base
system somewhere for you and maintain the map of packages to
descriptions because even the densest among you must be aware by now
that you're never getting anything more complicated than this.

Now will you all please stop this and go and do something useful?

Matthew

src/gui-selector.sh:

#!/bin/ksh

default="fvwm"
builtin="cwm fvwm twm"
bloaty="kde gnome xfce"
gnome="gnome" # Is there something for this?
gnome_full=$gnome
gnome_bloat="gnome-extras"
gnome_bin=/usr/local/bin/gnome
kde="kde4-minimal"
kde_full="kde4"
kde_bloat="kde4-extras"
kde_bin=/usr/local/bin/kde4
xfce="xfce"
xfce_full="xfce-extras"
xfce_bloat=$xfce_full
xfce_bin=/usr/local/bin/xfce

cwm_desc="?"
fvwm_desc="Simple, effective, default"
twm_desc="Theo likes it so it must be good"
gnome_desc="We know what you want, except not correctly like Apple"
kde_desc="The only DE ever to kill my X server"
xfce_desc="I heard of this once"

error() {
  if [[ $# != 0 ]]; then
    echo "$@" >&2
  else
    cat >&2
  fi
}

abort() {
  error "$@"
  exit 1
}

msg() {
  if [[ $# != 0 ]]; then
    echo "$@"
  else
    cat
  fi
}

prompt() {
  answer= # NOT local
  echo -n "$@" ''
  read answer
  echo
}

root=
if [[ `id -u` -ne 0 ]]; then
  root=doas
  error <<ROOT
Before this script can continue root access required.

Either stop this script with Ctrl-C and execute it in a root shell or
ensure this line exists in /etc/doas.conf:

  permit nopass $USER as root cmd pkg_add

Note that there are more secure ways to achieve this but it should be
acceptable for a desktop computer; see doas.conf(5) for more
information.

When your user account's root privileges are enabled, press enter to
continue.

ROOT

  prompt Root privileges?
fi

# TODO: layouts and shit
list_ui() {
  unset list # NOT local
  local this=0
  for cat in builtin bloaty; do
    msg DE category: $cat
    msg ''
    eval _all=\$$cat
    for de in $_all; do
      eval msg $this: $de -- \$${de}_desc
      list[$this]=$de
      ((this++))
    done
    msg ''
  done
}

find_de() {
  de= # NOT local
  local _c=$1 _i=
  if [[ " $builtin $bloaty " = *" $_C "* ]]; then
    de=$_c
    return 0
  fi
  if [[ $_c = *[0-9]* && $_c -lt ${#list[@]} ]]; then
    de=${list[$_c]}
    return 0
  fi
  _i=0
  while [[ $_i -lt ${#list[@]} ]]; do
    if [[ ${list[$_i]} = $_c ]]; then
      de=$_c
      return 0
    fi
    ((_i++))
  done
  return 1
}

list_ui

msg You may identify a desktop environment by its number or its short name.

while prompt Which desktop environment would you like to use? && ! find_de "$answer"; do
  error Invalid selection.
done

if ! [[ " $builtin " = *" $de "* ]]; then
  msg <<BLOAT
Desktop environments other than those which are built into the base
system come in up to three flavours, Regular, Full and Bloaty. Not all
environments provide all three flavours. If you select a flavour which
is not available the next-smallest flavour will be chosen in its place.

BLOAT
  while prompt Which flavour would you like to install [Regular]: && [[ -n "$answer" && "$answer" != [BbFfRr]* ]]; do
    error Invalid selection.
  done

  case "$answer" in
  [Bb]*)    bloat=${de}_bloat;;
  [Ff]*)    bloat=${de}_full;;
  [Rr]*|'') bloat=$de;;
  esac

  eval \$root pkg_add \$$bloat
fi

if [[ `id -u` -eq 0 ]]; then
  _g=
  while prompt Which user account to you want to set the desktop environment for? && ! _g=$(getent passwd "$answer"); do
    error Invalid user.
  done
  userhome=$(echo "$_g" | cut -d: -f6)
  whose="the user's"
else
  userhome=$HOME
  whose="your"
fi

if [[ -e $userhome/.xsession ]]; then
  bak=$(date +%F:%T)
  msg Backing up previous xsession file to "$userhome/.xsession~$bak"
  cp "$userhome/.xsession" "$userhome/.xsession~$bak" || abort cp .xsession
fi

if [[ " $builtin " = *" $de "* ]]; then
  echo exec /usr/X11R6/bin/$de > $userhome/.xsession
else
  eval echo exec \$${de}_bin > $userhome/.xsession
fi || abort Could not write to $userhome/.xsession

msg << COMPLETE
$de has been installed and configured as $whose default desktop
environment. You may log out or reboot to enter it.

To install another environment and change $whose default, simply
run this script again.

COMPLETE

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Re: When will be created a great desktop experience for OpenBSD?

Patrick Harper
In reply to this post by Raul Miller
Our ideas of the setup process aren't equal so I disagree.

--
  Patrick Harper
  [hidden email]

On Thu, 23 May 2019, at 18:16, Raul Miller wrote:

> This looks like violent agreement. (It's perhaps worth noting that if
> you change the first word here from "No" to "Yes" that the idea being
> expressed does not change.)
>
> Thanks,
>
> --
> Raul
>
> On Thu, May 23, 2019 at 1:35 PM Patrick Harper <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > No, the installation program should make setup as easy as possible. The idea of a common development platform for X being suited only for circa 100dpi screens in 2019 is ludicrous. Making users pore  through half-a-dozen man pages and config files to make their X systems usable on hidpi screens is ludicrous.
> >
> > --
> >   Patrick Harper
> >   [hidden email]
> >
> > On Thu, 23 May 2019, at 16:58, Ingo Schwarze wrote:
> > > Hi,
> > >
> > > Patrick Harper wrote on Thu, May 23, 2019 at 04:50:54PM +0100:
> > >
> > > > I think OpenBSD could be made easier to set up for GUI applications
> > > > if some configuration that is currently done in files could be moved
> > > > to the install program.
> > >
> > > I very strongly oppose the idea.
> > >
> > > > These questions (or similar) could be shown
> > >
> > > Absolutely not.  The installer should ask as few questions as possible,
> > > ideally none whatsoever.  *That* is a way to simplify setup.
> > >
> > > The topics you mention have nothing to do with installation.
> > > They are merely low-importance user configuration that can be done
> > > at any time if desired.  But almost no user will ever have to consider
> > > any of those; i certainly didn't, ever, and i have been using many
> > > OpenBSD computers for almost two decades now, including with a wide
> > > variety of GUI applications.
> > >
> > > Yours,
> > >   Ingo
> > >
> >
>

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Re: When will be created a great desktop experience for OpenBSD?

Daniel Jakots-5
On Thu, 23 May 2019 19:51:45 +0000, "Patrick Harper"
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> Our ideas of the setup process aren't equal so I disagree.

Can you please stop answering to this useless thread?

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Re: When will be created a great desktop experience for OpenBSD?

Gustavo Rios
In reply to this post by Patrick Harper
desktop!
Never, at least that

Em qui, 23 de mai de 2019 às 16:00, Patrick Harper
<[hidden email]> escreveu:

>
> Our ideas of the setup process aren't equal so I disagree.
>
> --
>   Patrick Harper
>   [hidden email]
>
> On Thu, 23 May 2019, at 18:16, Raul Miller wrote:
> > This looks like violent agreement. (It's perhaps worth noting that if
> > you change the first word here from "No" to "Yes" that the idea being
> > expressed does not change.)
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > --
> > Raul
> >
> > On Thu, May 23, 2019 at 1:35 PM Patrick Harper <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > >
> > > No, the installation program should make setup as easy as possible. The idea of a common development platform for X being suited only for circa 100dpi screens in 2019 is ludicrous. Making users pore  through half-a-dozen man pages and config files to make their X systems usable on hidpi screens is ludicrous.
> > >
> > > --
> > >   Patrick Harper
> > >   [hidden email]
> > >
> > > On Thu, 23 May 2019, at 16:58, Ingo Schwarze wrote:
> > > > Hi,
> > > >
> > > > Patrick Harper wrote on Thu, May 23, 2019 at 04:50:54PM +0100:
> > > >
> > > > > I think OpenBSD could be made easier to set up for GUI applications
> > > > > if some configuration that is currently done in files could be moved
> > > > > to the install program.
> > > >
> > > > I very strongly oppose the idea.
> > > >
> > > > > These questions (or similar) could be shown
> > > >
> > > > Absolutely not.  The installer should ask as few questions as possible,
> > > > ideally none whatsoever.  *That* is a way to simplify setup.
> > > >
> > > > The topics you mention have nothing to do with installation.
> > > > They are merely low-importance user configuration that can be done
> > > > at any time if desired.  But almost no user will ever have to consider
> > > > any of those; i certainly didn't, ever, and i have been using many
> > > > OpenBSD computers for almost two decades now, including with a wide
> > > > variety of GUI applications.
> > > >
> > > > Yours,
> > > >   Ingo
> > > >
> > >
> >
>


--
Pag Bem Fácil Ltda
www.pagbemfacil.com.br

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Re: When will be created a great desktop experience for OpenBSD?

Patrick Harper
In reply to this post by Daniel Jakots-5
Thank you for helping me keep this thread going.

--
  Patrick Harper
  [hidden email]

On Thu, 23 May 2019, at 20:04, Daniel Jakots wrote:
> On Thu, 23 May 2019 19:51:45 +0000, "Patrick Harper"
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > Our ideas of the setup process aren't equal so I disagree.
>
> Can you please stop answering to this useless thread?
>

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Re: When will be created a great desktop experience for OpenBSD?

Peter Kay-5
There's a very simple solution to this : create your own post install setup program and stick it in ports. If it becomes wildly popular then a line could be added to afterboot to point users at it.


In the meantime I'm quite happy not answering X questions when installing OpenBSD as a firewall.


You're also wrong about FVWM and HDPI screens. FVWM is very flexible, but a pain to configure (I use cwm). The majority of users still use 1080p monitors (go check the Steam hardware survey).

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Re: When will be created a great desktop experience for OpenBSD?

Patrick Harper
Is it acceptable for third-parties to produce and distribute physical copies of releases, using official logos, similar to those made for 6.0 and prior by the project?

--
  Patrick Harper
  [hidden email]

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Re: When will be created a great desktop experience for OpenBSD?

Patrick Harper
So you think everyone replying to this thread is an idiot?

--
  Patrick Harper
  [hidden email]

On Fri, 24 May 2019, at 18:38, Jordan Geoghegan wrote:
>
> On 5/24/19 10:26 AM, Patrick Harper wrote:
> > Is it acceptable for third-parties to produce and distribute physical copies of releases, using official logos, similar to those made for 6.0 and prior by the project?
> >
> Can you please stop replying to this thread, I'm so tired of receiving
> emails from you idiots.
>
>

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