When will be created a great desktop experience for OpenBSD?

classic Classic list List threaded Threaded
91 messages Options
12345
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: When will be created a great desktop experience for OpenBSD?

Stuart Henderson
On 2019-05-08, Consus <[hidden email]> wrote:
> On 02:01 Tue 07 May, Clark Block wrote:
>> When will be created a great desktop experience for OpenBSD?
>
> After binary package updates will be out-of-box, without using
> third-party M:Tier.

Oh, but they already are. Install snapshots instead of release.

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: When will be created a great desktop experience for OpenBSD?

ropers
In reply to this post by Steve Litt
On 08/05/2019, Steve Litt <[hidden email]> wrote:
> ...you'd better crank waaaaay up on its fonts. Fvwm fonts
> are so small that if you have bad vision, you can't read the screen
> well enough to increase the font size.
>
> It's easy for a well-sighted person to reduce fonts, but for the poorly
> sighted person who can't read the screen in the first place, it's a
> long, difficult process.

Have you or has anyone ever set up Compiz zoom (Enhanced Zoom Desktop
in ccsm) on an OpenBSD box? I don't even know what Desktop
Environments and Window Managers would be compatible with it, and this
isn't something I have tried, but it may be worth investigating in
your situation.

Hmm... https://www.google.com/search?q=site:ports.su+compiz

Also, if you'd still be happy to give me a clue on the below, I'd
still be grateful after all:

> > I know a much better way, but it involves installing a lightweight
> > $this_other_launcher with almost zero dependencies, so I won't talk
> > about it.
> >
> > SteveT
>
> Okay, so now I *AM* curious and *would* be thankful if you could elaborate.
> You win. Sorry for being such an overly restrictive ass earlier.

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: When will be created a great desktop experience for OpenBSD?

Steve Litt
On Fri, 10 May 2019 23:32:18 +0200
ropers <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 08/05/2019, Steve Litt <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > ...you'd better crank waaaaay up on its fonts. Fvwm fonts
> > are so small that if you have bad vision, you can't read the screen
> > well enough to increase the font size.
> >
> > It's easy for a well-sighted person to reduce fonts, but for the
> > poorly sighted person who can't read the screen in the first place,
> > it's a long, difficult process.  
>
> Have you or has anyone ever set up Compiz zoom (Enhanced Zoom Desktop
> in ccsm) on an OpenBSD box? I don't even know what Desktop
> Environments and Window Managers would be compatible with it, and this
> isn't something I have tried, but it may be worth investigating in
> your situation.

The last time I used Compiz it made my computer slower and less stable.
I'd rather walk away from fvwm than install Compiz.

>
> Hmm... https://www.google.com/search?q=site:ports.su+compiz
>
> Also, if you'd still be happy to give me a clue on the below, I'd
> still be grateful after all:
>
> > > I know a much better way, but it involves installing a lightweight
> > > $this_other_launcher with almost zero dependencies, so I won't
> > > talk about it.
> > >
> > > SteveT  
> >
> > Okay, so now I *AM* curious and *would* be thankful if you could
> > elaborate. You win. Sorry for being such an overly restrictive ass
> > earlier.  

Oh, that's the dmenu thing I described in a different thread.

SteveT

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: When will be created a great desktop experience for OpenBSD?

Consus-2
In reply to this post by Stuart Henderson
On 10:29 Fri 10 May, Stuart Henderson wrote:
> On 2019-05-08, Consus <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > On 02:01 Tue 07 May, Clark Block wrote:
> >> When will be created a great desktop experience for OpenBSD?
> >
> > After binary package updates will be out-of-box, without using
> > third-party M:Tier.
>
> Oh, but they already are. Install snapshots instead of release.

Ain't -current a "development" branch? I mean things break, major
changes being pushed, experiments are being held. Kinda not what I want
on my home computer.

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: When will be created a great desktop experience for OpenBSD?

Otto Moerbeek
On Sat, May 11, 2019 at 01:05:32PM +0300, Consus wrote:

> On 10:29 Fri 10 May, Stuart Henderson wrote:
> > On 2019-05-08, Consus <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > > On 02:01 Tue 07 May, Clark Block wrote:
> > >> When will be created a great desktop experience for OpenBSD?
> > >
> > > After binary package updates will be out-of-box, without using
> > > third-party M:Tier.
> >
> > Oh, but they already are. Install snapshots instead of release.
>
> Ain't -current a "development" branch? I mean things break, major
> changes being pushed, experiments are being held. Kinda not what I want
> on my home computer.
>

Once in a while things break in current, but we keep that to a minimum.
*If* it happens, swift action is taken.

Experiments are mostly done outside the tree and only are committed
after we are confident it's an improvement.

        -Otto

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: When will be created a great desktop experience for OpenBSD?

acampbell
On 11 May 2019, Otto Moerbeek wrote:

> On Sat, May 11, 2019 at 01:05:32PM +0300, Consus wrote:
>
> > On 10:29 Fri 10 May, Stuart Henderson wrote:
> > > On 2019-05-08, Consus <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > > > On 02:01 Tue 07 May, Clark Block wrote:
> > > >> When will be created a great desktop experience for OpenBSD?
> > > >
> > > > After binary package updates will be out-of-box, without using
> > > > third-party M:Tier.
> > >
> > > Oh, but they already are. Install snapshots instead of release.
> >
> > Ain't -current a "development" branch? I mean things break, major
> > changes being pushed, experiments are being held. Kinda not what I want
> > on my home computer.
> >
>
> Once in a while things break in current, but we keep that to a minimum.
> *If* it happens, swift action is taken.
>
> Experiments are mostly done outside the tree and only are committed
> after we are confident it's an improvement.
>
> -Otto

I've been using -current on my desktop and several laptops for over
three years. I've had fewer problems than with either Debian Sid or
Arch Linux, both of which I'd used extensively before coming to
OBSD. On the few occasions when problems I couldn't solve easily
have arisen I've found answers thanks to kind people here, on
daemonforums, or occasionally from the maintainer of a package.


--
Anthony Campbell http://www.acampbell.uk

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: When will be created a great desktop experience for OpenBSD?

Steve Litt
In reply to this post by ropers
On Fri, 10 May 2019 23:32:18 +0200
ropers <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 08/05/2019, Steve Litt <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > ...you'd better crank waaaaay up on its fonts. Fvwm fonts
> > are so small that if you have bad vision, you can't read the screen
> > well enough to increase the font size.
> >
> > It's easy for a well-sighted person to reduce fonts, but for the
> > poorly sighted person who can't read the screen in the first place,
> > it's a long, difficult process.  
>
> Have you or has anyone ever set up Compiz zoom (Enhanced Zoom Desktop
> in ccsm) on an OpenBSD box? I don't even know what Desktop
> Environments and Window Managers would be compatible with it, and this
> isn't something I have tried, but it may be worth investigating in
> your situation.

Not really. How do I set up or enable compiz (if I even wanted it) if I
can't read the screen's 9point low contrast fonts?

As I travel this earth I continue to be amazed at peoples' fascination
with tiny fonts. Perhaps that's to pack more stuff on the screen. But
then they go on to make the text low contrast in the name of "pretty",
thereby locking out those who can't correct to 20/20. And just to rub
salt in the wounds, they always make their tiny black background
terminals transparent, so random noise can confuse further.

SteveT

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: When will be created a great desktop experience for OpenBSD?

Nathan Hartman
On Mon, May 13, 2019 at 1:26 PM Steve Litt <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> As I travel this earth I continue to be amazed at peoples' fascination
> with tiny fonts. Perhaps that's to pack more stuff on the screen. But
> then they go on to make the text low contrast in the name of "pretty",
> thereby locking out those who can't correct to 20/20. And just to rub
> salt in the wounds, they always make their tiny black background
> terminals transparent, so random noise can confuse further.
>
> SteveT


I am similarly amazed.

User interfaces have gotten progressively
worse over the last 15 years and the trend
continues.

>
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: When will be created a great desktop experience for OpenBSD?

Antoine Jacoutot-7
On Mon, May 13, 2019 at 02:04:13PM -0400, Nathan Hartman wrote:

> On Mon, May 13, 2019 at 1:26 PM Steve Litt <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
> > As I travel this earth I continue to be amazed at peoples' fascination
> > with tiny fonts. Perhaps that's to pack more stuff on the screen. But
> > then they go on to make the text low contrast in the name of "pretty",
> > thereby locking out those who can't correct to 20/20. And just to rub
> > salt in the wounds, they always make their tiny black background
> > terminals transparent, so random noise can confuse further.
> >
> > SteveT
>
>
> I am similarly amazed.
>
> User interfaces have gotten progressively
> worse over the last 15 years and the trend
> continues.

Nowadays, computer interfaces are designed for people who don't know nor care
about computers.
Different times...

--
Antoine

ULF
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: When will be created a great desktop experience for OpenBSD?

ULF
If from one side is true that many modern interfaces (mostly M$, though)
are made for people who know nothing about computing, from one another is
clear that some good ones (in terms of usability) help the user to keep
concentrated on his work.

On a mac, on a recent gnome, on a kde, etc. it's easier for a user to keep
track of multiple jobs without thinking about the OS, but rather thinking
about contents. It's a matter of fact that computers are mostly used to do
things that have nothing to do with programming and sysadmin, and also
developers here must, while programming/administering the machine, maybe
write a letter to the insurance, browse 20+ pages while looking at a
calendar (maybe shared) during a phone call, opening the accounting program
for taxes and so on...

In 2019, doing all of the above with fvwm, twm, (whatever-tiny)wm not only
feels awkward, but also time consuming and less flexible. The argument that
one just has to type "command &" is not as valid as just clicking an icon
when one of your hands is busy holding the phone or a document.

And, btw, let's say it: fvwm looks like 70s/80s, it's full of charm for
retrocomputing but it's pretty ugly to see in 2019. And many people prefer
just right clicking on a picture to change background rather than finding
which config file they gotta change and then change it. Because config
files are good, but total lack of automatization
for basic activies is just time consuming, not sexy. Not to speak about
fonts, icons and, especially, different languages (I mean alphabets)
managing.... just shifting to a non-latin keyboard becomes hell.



On Mon, May 13, 2019 at 8:09 PM Antoine Jacoutot <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> On Mon, May 13, 2019 at 02:04:13PM -0400, Nathan Hartman wrote:
> > On Mon, May 13, 2019 at 1:26 PM Steve Litt <[hidden email]>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > As I travel this earth I continue to be amazed at peoples' fascination
> > > with tiny fonts. Perhaps that's to pack more stuff on the screen. But
> > > then they go on to make the text low contrast in the name of "pretty",
> > > thereby locking out those who can't correct to 20/20. And just to rub
> > > salt in the wounds, they always make their tiny black background
> > > terminals transparent, so random noise can confuse further.
> > >
> > > SteveT
> >
> >
> > I am similarly amazed.
> >
> > User interfaces have gotten progressively
> > worse over the last 15 years and the trend
> > continues.
>
> Nowadays, computer interfaces are designed for people who don't know nor
> care
> about computers.
> Different times...
>
> --
> Antoine
>
>
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: When will be created a great desktop experience for OpenBSD?

Patrick Harper
On Tue, 14 May 2019, at 09:09, ULF wrote:

> If from one side is true that many modern interfaces (mostly M$, though)
> are made for people who know nothing about computing, from one another is
> clear that some good ones (in terms of usability) help the user to keep
> concentrated on his work.
>
> On a mac, on a recent gnome, on a kde, etc. it's easier for a user to keep
> track of multiple jobs without thinking about the OS, but rather thinking
> about contents. It's a matter of fact that computers are mostly used to do
> things that have nothing to do with programming and sysadmin, and also
> developers here must, while programming/administering the machine, maybe
> write a letter to the insurance, browse 20+ pages while looking at a
> calendar (maybe shared) during a phone call, opening the accounting program
> for taxes and so on...
>
> In 2019, doing all of the above with fvwm, twm, (whatever-tiny)wm not only
> feels awkward, but also time consuming and less flexible. The argument that
> one just has to type "command &" is not as valid as just clicking an icon
> when one of your hands is busy holding the phone or a document.

If one's window manager's configuration file is set up to provide shortcuts to all relevant applications, then there's no need to use a terminal for that.

>
> And, btw, let's say it: fvwm looks like 70s/80s, it's full of charm for
> retrocomputing but it's pretty ugly to see in 2019. And many people prefer
> just right clicking on a picture to change background rather than finding
> which config file they gotta change and then change it. Because config
> files are good, but total lack of automatization
> for basic activies is just time consuming, not sexy. Not to speak about
> fonts, icons and, especially, different languages (I mean alphabets)
> managing.... just shifting to a non-latin keyboard becomes hell.

I think you have a point in there somewhere but I can't find it.

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: When will be created a great desktop experience for OpenBSD?

Peter J. Philipp-3
On Tue, May 14, 2019 at 12:20:52PM +0100, Patrick Harper wrote:

> On Tue, 14 May 2019, at 09:09, ULF wrote:
> > If from one side is true that many modern interfaces (mostly M$, though)
> > are made for people who know nothing about computing, from one another is
> > clear that some good ones (in terms of usability) help the user to keep
> > concentrated on his work.
> >
> > On a mac, on a recent gnome, on a kde, etc. it's easier for a user to keep
> > track of multiple jobs without thinking about the OS, but rather thinking
> > about contents. It's a matter of fact that computers are mostly used to do
> > things that have nothing to do with programming and sysadmin, and also
> > developers here must, while programming/administering the machine, maybe
> > write a letter to the insurance, browse 20+ pages while looking at a
> > calendar (maybe shared) during a phone call, opening the accounting program
> > for taxes and so on...
> >
> > In 2019, doing all of the above with fvwm, twm, (whatever-tiny)wm not only
> > feels awkward, but also time consuming and less flexible. The argument that
> > one just has to type "command &" is not as valid as just clicking an icon
> > when one of your hands is busy holding the phone or a document.
>
> If one's window manager's configuration file is set up to provide shortcuts to all relevant applications, then there's no need to use a terminal for that.
>
> >
> > And, btw, let's say it: fvwm looks like 70s/80s, it's full of charm for
> > retrocomputing but it's pretty ugly to see in 2019. And many people prefer
> > just right clicking on a picture to change background rather than finding
> > which config file they gotta change and then change it. Because config
> > files are good, but total lack of automatization
> > for basic activies is just time consuming, not sexy. Not to speak about
> > fonts, icons and, especially, different languages (I mean alphabets)
> > managing.... just shifting to a non-latin keyboard becomes hell.
>
> I think you have a point in there somewhere but I can't find it.

I like retrocomputing.  At what point does a society say "we want some things,
but not the whole nine yards".  Sorta like in Matrix III revolutions where the
point is made that some machines (dumbed down) are OK, but high tech
self-thinking machines like the "machines" in the matrix are not.

We had a split before in western society where a group split from car
ownership, and machinery in general.  They lasted over 100 years I think.
I think we may be nearing a split like that again, as we don't need to
wait for the singularity to hit us.  We can say "stop" where it's at today,
or go back a few years or decades.

When I started with UN*X in 1995, it became clear to me that I'd have to
sacrifice on the trash games I played.  I had to sacrifice on other things
too.  In a way life is about sacrifices and we don't even miss it when we
don't think about what we'd be missing out on.

Technology wise I'd like to go a bit further still as I am today but not
much further where a computer tells me how to live my life, or even tries
to hurt me.  If I knew fvwm survived 100 years, that'd be a blessing perhaps?

Regards,
-peter

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: When will be created a great desktop experience for OpenBSD?

Ingo Schwarze
In reply to this post by ULF
Hi Ulf,

ULF wrote on Tue, May 14, 2019 at 10:07:46AM +0200:

> On a mac, on a recent gnome, on a kde, etc. it's easier for a user to keep
> track of multiple jobs without thinking about the OS, but rather thinking
> about contents.
[...]
> In 2019, doing all of the above with fvwm, twm, (whatever-tiny)wm not only
> feels awkward, but also time consuming and less flexible. The argument that
> one just has to type "command &" is not as valid as just clicking an icon
> when one of your hands is busy holding the phone or a document.

That's entirely a matter of taste.

I waste time whenever i have to select anything from any kind of
menu, select any icon from any kind of iconbox or desktop background,
select any file or directory from any file selection dialogue, or
have to click any icon in any dialogue box.

I prefer typing commands and use as little menus, clickable icons,
selection lists, and dialogue boxes as possible because it is faster,
simpler, and requires less looking at the screen.  It is also
scriptable/programmable, which is the main strength of using computers
in the first place.

Then again, if you like GUIs as a matter of personal taste, you are
certainly welcome to use them.  Many people like GUIs (even though
i have a hard time understanding why), and that's why many of our
developers focus on maintaining software like Gnome and KDE for
OpenBSD.  But please don't call it a "fact" that GUIs are absolutely
better than CLIs.  Even for image and video processing, i vastly
prefer CLIs over GUIs wherever possible because it is faster and
more precise for me.

> And, btw, let's say it: fvwm looks like 70s/80s, it's full of
> charm for retrocomputing but it's pretty ugly to see in 2019.

I couldn't care less.  "Ugly" is purely personal taste, and fashion
is purely a waste of time and resources, benefiting no one but those
who define what the fashion of the year is and making money from
selling new products to the public because last year's products now
suddenly look old-fashioned for no good reason.

> And many people prefer just right clicking on a picture to change
> background

I would never want to change a background.  There is simply no point
to that.  When i'm working, almost none of the background is visible
anyway.  Why would i waste screen real estate?  And even if there
is some screen space i don't currently need, by definition, it
doesn't matter how it looks like.

> rather than finding which config file they gotta change and then
> change it.  Because config files are good, but total lack of
> automatization for basic activies is just time consuming,

Automation is precisely the main advantage of CLIs over GUIs.
That is not even a personal preference, but that is a fact for a
change.

Yours,
  Ingo

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

RE: When will be created a great desktop experience for OpenBSD?

zeurkous
In reply to this post by Clark Block
[responding to this little gem I just found in the archives...]

Ingo wrote on 2019-05-14 13:54:38:

> That's entirely a matter of taste.
>[snip rant]

Ingo, we don't often seem to agree, but mecouldn't have said what you
just did any better.

In particular, me'd like to reinforce this point:

> Automation is precisely the main advantage of CLIs over GUIs.

with a translated quote from Gerrit Krol (I only know the quote, not
him, and not his books), as it used to appear in the front of every
book written or published by the somewhat legendary Pim Oets:

"Computers are needed where the work becomes boring. Work that is
 boring and yet has to be done, can be done by a computer. It is
 therefore good that computers exist."

Amen.

        --zeurkous.

--
Friggin' Machines!

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: When will be created a great desktop experience for OpenBSD?

Christopher Turkel
The GUI verses command line arguments are as old as time itself, or close
to it. What constitutes a great desktop experience is a matter of taste,
whatever works for you may not work for someone else. Not one desktop or
GUI will fit everyone; use whats best for you and live your own computer
life.

OpenBSD has a massive amount of tools to make any kind of desktop you wish,
that's why it is awesome.

On Tue, May 14, 2019 at 3:57 PM <[hidden email]> wrote:

> [responding to this little gem I just found in the archives...]
>
> Ingo wrote on 2019-05-14 13:54:38:
>
> > That's entirely a matter of taste.
> >[snip rant]
>
> Ingo, we don't often seem to agree, but mecouldn't have said what you
> just did any better.
>
> In particular, me'd like to reinforce this point:
>
> > Automation is precisely the main advantage of CLIs over GUIs.
>
> with a translated quote from Gerrit Krol (I only know the quote, not
> him, and not his books), as it used to appear in the front of every
> book written or published by the somewhat legendary Pim Oets:
>
> "Computers are needed where the work becomes boring. Work that is
>  boring and yet has to be done, can be done by a computer. It is
>  therefore good that computers exist."
>
> Amen.
>
>         --zeurkous.
>
> --
> Friggin' Machines!
>
>
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: When will be created a great desktop experience for OpenBSD?

Stuart Longland
In reply to this post by ULF
On 14/5/19 6:07 pm, ULF wrote:

> On a mac, on a recent gnome, on a kde, etc. it's easier for a user to keep
> track of multiple jobs without thinking about the OS, but rather thinking
> about contents. It's a matter of fact that computers are mostly used to do
> things that have nothing to do with programming and sysadmin, and also
> developers here must, while programming/administering the machine, maybe
> write a letter to the insurance, browse 20+ pages while looking at a
> calendar (maybe shared) during a phone call, opening the accounting program
> for taxes and so on...
>
> In 2019, doing all of the above with fvwm, twm, (whatever-tiny)wm not only
> feels awkward, but also time consuming and less flexible. The argument that
> one just has to type "command &" is not as valid as just clicking an icon
> when one of your hands is busy holding the phone or a document.
>
> And, btw, let's say it: fvwm looks like 70s/80s, it's full of charm for
> retrocomputing but it's pretty ugly to see in 2019. And many people prefer
> just right clicking on a picture to change background rather than finding
> which config file they gotta change and then change it.

I find FVWM 2.6.5 does reasonably well for my needs.  Yes, I'm
multitasking between a web browser, a terminal session, an email client,
sometimes dozens of text editor (gVim) windows, office suites and
various specialist tools.

My day job involves software development mostly in C, JavaScript and
Python (occasionally C++, PHP, Java, CSS/HTML), and my productivity is
right up there with others that use full-blown desktops (Unity) and IDEs
(Webstorm).

Granted, I've taken the time to actually tune it to my work flow, and no
the journey for doing that is not what I'd call "novice friendly" (note
I didn't say "user friendly", because users come in all levels of
experience).

Prior to that I was running KDE.  Notably KDE up to the early 4.0
series, because I found after that point, the desktop ran too slow on
the hardware I had available to use: trying to coax a Pentium II 300MHz
laptop upgraded to its maximum specs (160MB RAM, 160GB HDD) to run the
software I needed for university studies circa 2008 was bad enough, I
didn't need to bog the machine down with a bloated desktop to boot!

Thus, out of necessity, I went from KDE back to FVWM (which ironically
is where I started, as it was the standard desktop for Red Hat Linux 4.0
circa 1996) and adapted it to more-or-less behave the way I needed it to
work.  I've even made it work on touch-screens (Raspberry Pi 7").
Eye-candy be damned, I want to *use* my computer!

Really, user friendliness is about being able to adapt the machine to
the user in whatever situation they may find themselves in, whether it
be being stuck with old hardware for financial reasons that you must
make work; having a temporary or permanent inability to use certain body
parts for data entry purposes; or sensory issues preventing the use of
(or needing special configuration of) specific output devices.

KDE 3 was good for that, and was reasonably configurable, but a lack of
flexibility in v4 and a move to a more bloated core made it untenable.
Gnome has been rigid in its capabilities from the start (used it on
several occasions, including v1.0 with Enlightenment), although I hear
it's good with accessibility.  awesome wasn't so "awesome" after a month
or two's use.  XFCE hasn't really grown on me either.

There was an attempt to make a user-friendly desktop out of FVWM:
fvwm-crystal.  If anything, the more important thing is providing an
easy way for users to select some sane defaults, then provide tools for
customisation -- including the "get out of my way and let me DIY" option.

It really is a horses for courses market, and I don't think we'll get
away from that.  It's the reason why the commercial desk-top market is
largely a two-horse race (Apple/Microsoft) and why the open-source
movement is awash with different operating system distributions and
window managers.

I did try OpenBSD as a desktop -- on a Lemote Yeeloong, and while it
didn't work out for my needs, I did find it refreshing compared to what
I was used to on Linux.  I'd use it more if it weren't for my need to
run things like Docker at work.  (Not sure if the old Linux binary
support could be re-instated to run that… but I understand there were
good reasons for culling it, maintenance being one.)

I do not think we should just be "doing ${something}" because everyone
else does -- I think there is a real point to OpenBSD's KISS approach to
system design and would prefer that continues. :-)
--
Stuart Longland (aka Redhatter, VK4MSL)

I haven't lost my mind...
  ...it's backed up on a tape somewhere.

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Current / Security & Stability (Re: When will be created a great desktop experience for OpenBSD?

Roderick
In reply to this post by Otto Moerbeek

On Sat, 11 May 2019, Otto Moerbeek wrote:

> Once in a while things break in current, but we keep that to a minimum.
> *If* it happens, swift action is taken.
>
> Experiments are mostly done outside the tree and only are committed
> after we are confident it's an improvement.

Is there an advantage in security of running current?

Till now I use OpenBSD as desktop and my greatest fear is to
end with a broken system that distracts me from my work.

Rodrigo

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Current / Security & Stability

Ingo Schwarze
Hi Roderick,

Roderick wrote on Sat, May 18, 2019 at 08:47:09AM +0000:
> On Sat, 11 May 2019, Otto Moerbeek wrote:

>> Once in a while things break in current, but we keep that to a minimum.
>> *If* it happens, swift action is taken.
>>
>> Experiments are mostly done outside the tree and only are committed
>> after we are confident it's an improvement.

> Is there an advantage in security of running current?

Security depends more on how well a system is maintained.  Both
-current and -stable have roughly the same level of security when
well maintained, even though the way to maintain them is somewhat
different.  Which one is easier to maintain depends on taste and
on how many and what kind of packages are in use.  Both -current
and -stable can become insecure when poorly maintained.

> Till now I use OpenBSD as desktop and my greatest fear is to
> end with a broken system that distracts me from my work.

That sounds as if you clearly prefer -stable, and there is nothing
wrong with that.  Even though -current breaks rarely, it can happen,
and if that is your greatest fear, maybe you don't want to incur
that risk.

Yours,
  Ingo

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: When will be created a great desktop experience for OpenBSD?

Patrick Harper
In reply to this post by Stuart Longland
I think OpenBSD could be made easier to set up for GUI applications if some configuration that is currently done in files could be moved to the install program.

These questions (or similar) could be shown after the one about xenodm:

'Select a resolution for all screens in dots per inch ('?' for list) [96]'

The options would be 96, 120, 144, 192 and 284. The changes made for a different value would not only be the Xserver dpi setting, but also for the sizes of fonts and graphical elements in the default configuration files of window managers (fvwmrc, cwmrc, twmrc), xclock, xterm, xconsole, xcalc and xman.

'Choose a window manager for X ('cwm' or 'fvwm' or 'twm') [fvwm]'

If cwm is entered here, this question could be shown:

'Do you want cwm key bindings to use the Mod4 (windows) key in place of the Meta key? [no]'

There might be a reason for cwm key bindings to not use Mod4, but those who have the key available might appreciate not having to create a custom cwmrc so they can avoid conflicts with default keyboard shortcuts in some ports.

--
  Patrick Harper
  [hidden email]

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: When will be created a great desktop experience for OpenBSD?

Ingo Schwarze
Hi,

Patrick Harper wrote on Thu, May 23, 2019 at 04:50:54PM +0100:

> I think OpenBSD could be made easier to set up for GUI applications
> if some configuration that is currently done in files could be moved
> to the install program.

I very strongly oppose the idea.

> These questions (or similar) could be shown

Absolutely not.  The installer should ask as few questions as possible,
ideally none whatsoever.  *That* is a way to simplify setup.

The topics you mention have nothing to do with installation.
They are merely low-importance user configuration that can be done
at any time if desired.  But almost no user will ever have to consider
any of those; i certainly didn't, ever, and i have been using many
OpenBSD computers for almost two decades now, including with a wide
variety of GUI applications.

Yours,
  Ingo

12345