When will be created a great desktop experience for OpenBSD?

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Re: When will be created a great desktop experience for OpenBSD?

John Long-4
On Tue, 7 May 2019 19:02:57 +0000
Kent Watsen <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Probably not what the OP is looking for, but `tmux` is my current
> "window manager" of choice  ;)

Along those lines I find i3 is the perfect wm companion to tmux :)

/jl

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Re: When will be created a great desktop experience for OpenBSD?

Steve Litt
In reply to this post by Clark Block
On Tue, 7 May 2019 14:45:34 -0300
Clark Block <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Was developed the Isotop:
>
> https://www.reddit.com/r/BSD/comments/8of042/isotop_french_desktoporiented_openbsd_distro/
>
> https://3hg.fr/Isos/isotop/
>
> The Isotop is really  a user-friendly and easy-to-use
> variant of OpenBSD or is foolish?

What's your objective in asking this question? As a first step to
giving you possibly useful information, I asked about your typing
capabilities, and you didn't respond. Several people have asked you
questions, of which you only answered one, with the very broad phrase
"user-friendly and easy-to-use variant of OpenBSD!"

Then you ask us to evaluate a desktop maybe-described on two all French
web pages with no screenshots.

Do you want an answer, or did you ask us a rhetorical question, and if
rhetorical, what point are you trying to get across?

SteveT

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Re: When will be created a great desktop experience for OpenBSD?

Edgar Pettijohn III-2
In reply to this post by Clark Block

On May 7, 2019 2:29 PM, Steve Litt <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> On Tue, 7 May 2019 14:45:34 -0300
> Clark Block <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > Was developed the Isotop:
> >
> > https://www.reddit.com/r/BSD/comments/8of042/isotop_french_desktoporiented_openbsd_distro/
> >
> > https://3hg.fr/Isos/isotop/
> >
> > The Isotop is really  a user-friendly and easy-to-use
> > variant of OpenBSD or is foolish?
>
> What's your objective in asking this question? As a first step to
> giving you possibly useful information, I asked about your typing
> capabilities, and you didn't respond. Several people have asked you
> questions, of which you only answered one, with the very broad phrase
> "user-friendly and easy-to-use variant of OpenBSD!"
>
> Then you ask us to evaluate a desktop maybe-described on two all French
> web pages with no screenshots.
>
> Do you want an answer, or did you ask us a rhetorical question, and if
> rhetorical, what point are you trying to get across?
>
> SteveT
>

I use dwm on everything so my desktop experience is the same everywhere.

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Re: When will be created a great desktop experience for OpenBSD?

ropers
In reply to this post by Clark Block
Tangentially related: Does anyone here routinely use the default fvwm?

Now for a really noobish question: Those that do, do you also launch
graphical apps by typing something like this in xterm:

$ firefox > /dev/null 2>&1 &

or do you normally do something else that I've totally overlooked?

(Again, this is about how people use stock default fvwm. If your
answer begins with "install $this_other_launcher", it's probably not
what I'm looking for, but thanks anyway.)

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Re: When will be created a great desktop experience for OpenBSD?

Jeff Ross
On 5/7/19 4:23 PM, ropers wrote:

> Tangentially related: Does anyone here routinely use the default fvwm?
>
> Now for a really noobish question: Those that do, do you also launch
> graphical apps by typing something like this in xterm:
>
> $ firefox > /dev/null 2>&1 &
>
> or do you normally do something else that I've totally overlooked?
>
> (Again, this is about how people use stock default fvwm. If your
> answer begins with "install $this_other_launcher", it's probably not
> what I'm looking for, but thanks anyway.)
>
I just do

$ firefox

in an xterm and let it start in that window.  I have 9 windows available
in the little floating window selector doohickey so one for firefox, one
for Thunderbird, and mostly the rest for xterms.

Jeff

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Re: When will be created a great desktop experience for OpenBSD?

Steve Litt
In reply to this post by ropers
On Wed, 8 May 2019 00:23:09 +0200
ropers <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Tangentially related: Does anyone here routinely use the default fvwm?
>
> Now for a really noobish question: Those that do, do you also launch
> graphical apps by typing something like this in xterm:
>
> $ firefox > /dev/null 2>&1 &
>
> or do you normally do something else that I've totally overlooked?
>
> (Again, this is about how people use stock default fvwm. If your
> answer begins with "install $this_other_launcher", it's probably not
> what I'm looking for, but thanks anyway.)
>

Fvwm has menus, so if you set up your menus with your favorite
applications, you can run them with just a few keystrokes or mouse
clicks.

I know a much better way, but it involves installing a lightweight
$this_other_launcher with almost zero dependencies, so I won't talk
about it.
 
SteveT

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Re: When will be created a great desktop experience for OpenBSD?

Christopher Turkel
In reply to this post by ropers
You can copy the system.fvwm2rc to /home/.fvwm and edit the root menu to
launch your apps.

But barring that, I just use firefox & in a terminal

On Tue, May 7, 2019 at 6:34 PM ropers <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Tangentially related: Does anyone here routinely use the default fvwm?
>
> Now for a really noobish question: Those that do, do you also launch
> graphical apps by typing something like this in xterm:
>
> $ firefox > /dev/null 2>&1 &
>
> or do you normally do something else that I've totally overlooked?
>
> (Again, this is about how people use stock default fvwm. If your
> answer begins with "install $this_other_launcher", it's probably not
> what I'm looking for, but thanks anyway.)
>
>
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Re: When will be created a great desktop experience for OpenBSD?

Ingo Schwarze
In reply to this post by ropers
Hi,

ropers wrote on Wed, May 08, 2019 at 12:23:09AM +0200:

> Tangentially related: Does anyone here routinely use the default fvwm?

Yes, i don't use any other window manager.

> Now for a really noobish question: Those that do, do you also launch
> graphical apps by typing something like this in xterm:
>
> $ firefox > /dev/null 2>&1 &

More or less.  Sometimes, i simply do

  $ firefox

and leave the terminal open in case i want to look at the error messages.
Sometimes, i type

  $ firefox & exit

which is shorter.

> or do you normally do something else that I've totally overlooked?

No.  The only program is start by clicking the mouse is xterm(1).

Yours,
  Ingo

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Re: When will be created a great desktop experience for OpenBSD?

Vijay Sankar
In reply to this post by ropers
On 5/7/19 5:23 PM, ropers wrote:

> Tangentially related: Does anyone here routinely use the default fvwm?
>
> Now for a really noobish question: Those that do, do you also launch
> graphical apps by typing something like this in xterm:
>
> $ firefox > /dev/null 2>&1 &
>
> or do you normally do something else that I've totally overlooked?
>
> (Again, this is about how people use stock default fvwm. If your
> answer begins with "install $this_other_launcher", it's probably not
> what I'm looking for, but thanks anyway.)
>
Hi,

I used to be a fvwm user and then a KDE user but my lack of ability to
change the time to show anything other than UTC in KDE4 made me change
back to fvwm.

Except for a few systems (for ex. system from which I sending this
email), I usually use .fvwmrc with

AddToMenu CommandMenu "Command Menu"  Title
+       "Xterm"                 exec xterm &
+       "Firefox"               exec firefox &
+       "Calculator"            exec xcalc &
+       "Restart fvwm"          Restart fvwm
+       "Start cwm"             Restart cwm
+       "Lock Screen"           exec xlock &
+       "Logout"                FvwmForm QuitVerify

It seems to work the best for me.

Vijay

--
Vijay Sankar
ForeTell Technologies Limited
[hidden email]

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Re: When will be created a great desktop experience for OpenBSD?

Clark Block
In reply to this post by Otto Moerbeek
I received the following private messages about  a user-friendly and
easy-to-use variant of OpenBSD:

Clark,

great e-mail!

As you have noticed, the OpenBSD devs and even advocates tend to be quite
hostile towards ideas and viewpoints that don't fit their world.

I have had similar thoughts and related plans for a long, long time.

Would you be interested in co-operation? I think we need to fork...

Yours sincerely,

**********

Clark,

I've been trying talking sense to the devs and the advocates on the list so
many times, I really don't feel it's worth the effort. The only effect it's
ever had is that it just creates more bashing. =D

OpenBSD is superb in so many ways, and I've been sick and tired of the fact
that the attitude of the devs is killing 99% of the potential the OS has.
The guys on the list (and I assume most of all Theo himself) just don't
want to care about things like user experience.

It's a crazy situation and I've been thinking about forking *so* many times
-- but then again, that would mean having to support a whole new fork,
following upstream development and maintaining compatibility.

To be honest, I really don't know what to do about it. If I was a
millionaire... ;)

Yours,

***************

What is OpenBSD developers's opinion about the private messages that I
quoted above?
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Re: When will be created a great desktop experience for OpenBSD?

Ingo Schwarze
*plonk*

Everybody, please just stop feeding the "Clark Block" troll.

Clark Block wrote on Tue, May 07, 2019 at 08:19:56PM -0300:

[more junk deleted]

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Re: When will be created a great desktop experience for OpenBSD?

Evan Silberman
In reply to this post by Clark Block
Clark Block <[hidden email]> wrote:
> What is OpenBSD developers's opinion about the private messages that I
> quoted above?

I'm not an OpenBSD developer and I can't speak to their opinions but the
dynamic in this thread resembles the one discussed in this excellent talk [1]
by Evan Czaplicki, the creator of Elm. To be brief, it's far from uncommon for
users to ask for features in a project where there's lots of history and
context that they aren't aware of, and that the developers and leaders of the
project may have discussed many times. Sometimes this comes with the assertion
that their request is easy, or even that the developers are foolish for not
prioritizing their request.

In the case of OpenBSD, lots of people have probably popped up over the years
asking why the project doesn't prioritize (what they see as) a "great desktop
experience". I think the developers might be forgiven for not giving such
queries much attention the nth time. A graphical installer accessible to a
non-specialist user that installs a full-fledged desktop environment, a
browser, and an office suite is certainly a thing some operating system
projects provide. In a world where nothing has a cost, it might be abstractly
_good_ for OpenBSD to have such a thing. But things do have costs. OpenBSD has
different priorities than Windows, macOS, or Ubuntu, and orders of magnitude
less in financial and developer resources. And even if code that did what you
wanted appeared in the tree by magic, it would create a maintenance and support
cost that the project would also have to sustain. I'll leave further inferences
about this situation as an exercise for the reader.

Evan S.

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_4EX4dPppA

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Re: When will be created a great desktop experience for OpenBSD?

ropers
In reply to this post by Steve Litt
On 08/05/2019, Steve Litt <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Wed, 8 May 2019 00:23:09 +0200
> ropers <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> Tangentially related: Does anyone here routinely use the default fvwm?
>>
>> Now for a really noobish question: Those that do, do you also launch
>> graphical apps by typing something like this in xterm:
>>
>> $ firefox > /dev/null 2>&1 &
>>
>> or do you normally do something else that I've totally overlooked?
>>
>> (Again, this is about how people use stock default fvwm. If your
>> answer begins with "install $this_other_launcher", it's probably not
>> what I'm looking for, but thanks anyway.)
>>
>
> Fvwm has menus, so if you set up your menus with your favorite
> applications, you can run them with just a few keystrokes or mouse
> clicks.
>
> I know a much better way, but it involves installing a lightweight
> $this_other_launcher with almost zero dependencies, so I won't talk
> about it.
>
> SteveT

Okay, so now I *AM* curious and *would* be thankful if you could elaborate.
You win. Sorry for being such an overly restrictive ass earlier.

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Re: When will be created a great desktop experience for OpenBSD?

noah pugsley-3
In reply to this post by ropers
Maybe I'm a weirdo, but no matter what I use for a window manager, I start all programs from the cli.  All.

For Firefox or Chrome something like this:

$ firefox & bw ; exit

bw is a shortcut to an xterm with a bunch of options. Kill the one with the console crap and poop out a fresh one.

  Original Message  
From: ropers
Sent: Tuesday, May 7, 2019 15:35
To: Edgar Pettijohn
Cc: Steve Litt; [hidden email]
Subject: Re: When will be created a great desktop experience for OpenBSD?

Tangentially related: Does anyone here routinely use the default fvwm?

Now for a really noobish question: Those that do, do you also launch
graphical apps by typing something like this in xterm:

$ firefox > /dev/null 2>&1 &

or do you normally do something else that I've totally overlooked?

(Again, this is about how people use stock default fvwm. If your
answer begins with "install $this_other_launcher", it's probably not
what I'm looking for, but thanks anyway.)

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Re: When will be created a great desktop experience for OpenBSD?

Tom Smyth
In reply to this post by Ingo Schwarze
I was just thinking  fvwm users were all into custom fvwm configs
and I was missing out  :)  Im glad im not the only one who uses xterm as an
application launcher in fvwm

when using fvwm and using xterm to launch apps I found the responsiveness
of the GUI insanely fast...
It feels strange starting everything from xterm (when used to clicking
on an icons
on other systems..





On Tue, 7 May 2019 at 23:52, Ingo Schwarze <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> Hi,
>
> ropers wrote on Wed, May 08, 2019 at 12:23:09AM +0200:
>
> > Tangentially related: Does anyone here routinely use the default fvwm?
>
> Yes, i don't use any other window manager.
>
> > Now for a really noobish question: Those that do, do you also launch
> > graphical apps by typing something like this in xterm:
> >
> > $ firefox > /dev/null 2>&1 &
>
> More or less.  Sometimes, i simply do
>
>   $ firefox
>
> and leave the terminal open in case i want to look at the error messages.
> Sometimes, i type
>
>   $ firefox & exit
>
> which is shorter.
>
> > or do you normally do something else that I've totally overlooked?
>
> No.  The only program is start by clicking the mouse is xterm(1).
>
> Yours,
>   Ingo
>


--
Kindest regards,
Tom Smyth.

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Re: When will be created a great desktop experience for OpenBSD?

ropers
In reply to this post by noah pugsley-3
> From: ropers
> Tangentially related: Does anyone here routinely use the default fvwm?
>
> Now for a really noobish question: Those that do, do you also launch
> graphical apps by typing something like this in xterm:
>
> $ firefox > /dev/null 2>&1 &
>
> or do you normally do something else that I've totally overlooked?

On 08/05/2019, noah pugsley <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Maybe I'm a weirdo, but no matter what I use for a window manager, I start
> all programs from the cli.  All.
>
> For Firefox or Chrome something like this:
>
> $ firefox & bw ; exit
>
> bw is a shortcut to an xterm with a bunch of options. Kill the one with the
> console crap and poop out a fresh one.

You probably know this, but just for the record/archives, the
> $ firefox > /dev/null 2>&1 &
line that I quoted earlier should normally take care of "the console crap":
It redirects firefox's stdout to /dev/null, then redirects firefox's
stderr to stdout and thus to /dev/null, and then sets firefox to run
in the background.

(So if, I don't know, bw is perhaps just a script you wrote to avoid
"the console crap", then maybe it's not even necessary? I imagine it
might even be easier to keep your history if you're not constantly
spawning new xterms.
If you're way ahead of me here and if I'm just totally missing the
point, the plot and something obvious, feel free to engage in random
acts of clue-battery. ;)

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Re: When will be created a great desktop experience for OpenBSD?

noah pugsley-3
You know, I guess it's just personal convention from habit. I think I started doing that way back before I could remember how the redirects work ‎without looking them up.  Too lazy to change now. 

So yeah, if you're trying to divine something clever from that‎, I wouldn't. :-) 

Sent from mobile.
  Original Message  
From: ropers
Sent: Tuesday, May 7, 2019 21:07
To: noah pugsley
Cc: Edgar Pettijohn; Steve Litt; [hidden email]
Subject: Re: When will be created a great desktop experience for OpenBSD?

> From: ropers
> Tangentially related: Does anyone here routinely use the default fvwm?
>
> Now for a really noobish question: Those that do, do you also launch
> graphical apps by typing something like this in xterm:
>
> $ firefox > /dev/null 2>&1 &
>
> or do you normally do something else that I've totally overlooked?

On 08/05/2019, noah pugsley <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Maybe I'm a weirdo, but no matter what I use for a window manager, I start
> all programs from the cli. All.
>
> For Firefox or Chrome something like this:
>
> $ firefox & bw ; exit
>
> bw is a shortcut to an xterm with a bunch of options. Kill the one with the
> console crap and poop out a fresh one.

You probably know this, but just for the record/archives, the
> $ firefox > /dev/null 2>&1 &
line that I quoted earlier should normally take care of "the console crap":
It redirects firefox's stdout to /dev/null, then redirects firefox's
stderr to stdout and thus to /dev/null, and then sets firefox to run
in the background.

(So if, I don't know, bw is perhaps just a script you wrote to avoid
"the console crap", then maybe it's not even necessary? I imagine it
might even be easier to keep your history if you're not constantly
spawning new xterms.
If you're way ahead of me here and if I'm just totally missing the
point, the plot and something obvious, feel free to engage in random
acts of clue-battery. ;)

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Re: When will be created a great desktop experience for OpenBSD?

Consus-2
In reply to this post by Clark Block
On 02:01 Tue 07 May, Clark Block wrote:
> When will be created a great desktop experience for OpenBSD?

After binary package updates will be out-of-box, without using
third-party M:Tier.

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Re: When will be created a great desktop experience for OpenBSD?

ropers
In reply to this post by noah pugsley-3
On 08/05/2019, noah pugsley <[hidden email]> wrote:
> You know, I guess it's just personal convention from habit. I think I
> started doing that way back before I could remember how the redirects work
> ‎without looking them up.  Too lazy to change now.
>
> So yeah, if you're trying to divine something clever from that‎, I wouldn't.
> :-)

Okay, yeah, but maybe I can still "divine" something clever and cater
to laziness too.

Suppose we created a shell script named x and put that e.g. in ~/bin
once that's in our path, and then we made it executable. Contents of
~/bin/x:

#!/bin/sh
$@ > ~/.x.`basename $1`.log 2>&1 &

Then we could just type

$ x firefox

and get nice combined logs of just the last run in case anything went
wrong, but otherwise we'd have peace and quiet. I won't claim this
beats dmenu, but still.

This does no error-checking, but I'm not sure if the added complexity
of that would be an advantage to a proficient user.

If anyone sees anything seriously wrong with this, speak now or
forever hold your peace.

>   Original Message
> From: ropers
> Sent: Tuesday, May 7, 2019 21:07
> To: noah pugsley
> Cc: Edgar Pettijohn; Steve Litt; [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: When will be created a great desktop experience for OpenBSD?
>
>> From: ropers
>> Tangentially related: Does anyone here routinely use the default fvwm?
>>
>> Now for a really noobish question: Those that do, do you also launch
>> graphical apps by typing something like this in xterm:
>>
>> $ firefox > /dev/null 2>&1 &
>>
>> or do you normally do something else that I've totally overlooked?
>
> On 08/05/2019, noah pugsley <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Maybe I'm a weirdo, but no matter what I use for a window manager, I
>> start
>> all programs from the cli. All.
>>
>> For Firefox or Chrome something like this:
>>
>> $ firefox & bw ; exit
>>
>> bw is a shortcut to an xterm with a bunch of options. Kill the one with
>> the
>> console crap and poop out a fresh one.
>
> You probably know this, but just for the record/archives, the
>> $ firefox > /dev/null 2>&1 &
> line that I quoted earlier should normally take care of "the console crap":
> It redirects firefox's stdout to /dev/null, then redirects firefox's
> stderr to stdout and thus to /dev/null, and then sets firefox to run
> in the background.
>
> (So if, I don't know, bw is perhaps just a script you wrote to avoid
> "the console crap", then maybe it's not even necessary? I imagine it
> might even be easier to keep your history if you're not constantly
> spawning new xterms.
> If you're way ahead of me here and if I'm just totally missing the
> point, the plot and something obvious, feel free to engage in random
> acts of clue-battery. ;)
>

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Re: When will be created a great desktop experience for OpenBSD?

Mohamed Fouad
In reply to this post by Clark Block
if you are suggesting updating the openbsd installer to include dwm as an
option. Even that it adds one more click to the installation process, it
would work as a sharm for some people :P

On Tue, 7 May 2019, 2:04 am Clark Block <[hidden email] wrote:

> In 2019 still there is not a great desktop experience for NetBSD. However,
> the new "OS108" is seeking to improve this with a NetBSD operating system
> paired with the MATE desktop environment.
> So, OS108, a derivative of NetBSD, has just been released:
> https://os108.org/?ez_cid=CLIENT_ID(AMP_ECID_EZOIC)
>
> When will be created a great desktop experience for OpenBSD?
>
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