What VM does OpenBSD run well under>

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What VM does OpenBSD run well under>

Stan-18
I am planing on rebuilding my laptop shortly. I plan on putting Ubuntu 9.10
as the base OS, and I want to be able to run OpenBSD as a guest OS under
one of the FM' choices. Preferably one of the free ones (eg not VMWare).

What is the wisdom of the list on this?

--
One of the main causes of the fall of the roman empire was that, lacking
zero, they had no way to indicate successful termination of their C
programs.

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Re: What VM does OpenBSD run well under>

Bryan Irvine
I've been running it under virtualbox quite a while.  Has trouble
compiling a full release, but does well other than that,

-B

On Sat, Oct 31, 2009 at 8:12 AM, stan <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I am planing on rebuilding my laptop shortly. I plan on putting Ubuntu 9.10
> as the base OS, and I want to be able to run OpenBSD as a guest OS under
> one of the FM' choices. Preferably one of the free ones (eg not VMWare).
>
> What is the wisdom of the list on this?
>
> --
> One of the main causes of the fall of the roman empire was that, lacking
> zero, they had no way to indicate successful termination of their C
> programs.

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Re: What VM does OpenBSD run well under>

Christopher Dukes
In reply to this post by Stan-18
On Sat, Oct 31, 2009 at 10:12:02AM -0500, stan wrote:
> I am planing on rebuilding my laptop shortly. I plan on putting Ubuntu 9.10
> as the base OS, and I want to be able to run OpenBSD as a guest OS under
> one of the FM' choices. Preferably one of the free ones (eg not VMWare).
>
> What is the wisdom of the list on this?

As memory serves I went with Virtual Box directly from Sun's website
when i tracked down the bits to disable in GENERIC to get it to play
nice under KVM.

It works under KVM.  I vaguely recall mpbios0 and acpmiadt0 need to be
disabled.

--
Chris Dukes

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Re: What VM does OpenBSD run well under>

Theo de Raadt
> It works under KVM.  I vaguely recall mpbios0 and acpmiadt0 need to be
> disabled.

Then it doesn't work.

I've got this car, but the engine won't start.  But it works fine,
because if some friends help me I can push it down the road.

We won't cripple OpenBSD just because the virtual machines out there
are full of bugs.  It should be a warning to you.  How many of those
bugs are holes?  Your assumption is that none are.  My assumption is
that every single of them is some kind of hole.

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Re: What VM does OpenBSD run well under>

Garry Dolley-2
On Sat, Oct 31, 2009 at 01:57:20PM -0600, Theo de Raadt wrote:

> > It works under KVM.  I vaguely recall mpbios0 and acpmiadt0 need to be
> > disabled.
>
> Then it doesn't work.
>
> I've got this car, but the engine won't start.  But it works fine,
> because if some friends help me I can push it down the road.
>
> We won't cripple OpenBSD just because the virtual machines out there
> are full of bugs.  It should be a warning to you.  How many of those
> bugs are holes?  Your assumption is that none are.  My assumption is
> that every single of them is some kind of hole.

OpenBSD 4.4 works under KVM without modification.

OpenBSD 4.5+ works if "mpbios" is disabled, more info here:
http://scie.nti.st/2009/10/4/running-openbsd-4-5-in-kvm-on-ubuntu-linux-9-04

I haven't tried 4.5+ under Ubuntu 9.10; perhaps the newer KVM or
upstream QEMU has fixed the bugs that make 4.5+ not work out of the
box.

--
Garry Dolley
ARP Networks, Inc. | http://www.arpnetworks.com | (818) 206-0181
Data center, VPS, and IP Transit solutions
Member Los Angeles County REACT, Unit 336 | WQGK336
Blog http://scie.nti.st

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Re: What VM does OpenBSD run well under>

Theo de Raadt
> OpenBSD 4.5+ works if "mpbios" is disabled, more info here:
> http://scie.nti.st/2009/10/4/running-openbsd-4-5-in-kvm-on-ubuntu-linux-9-04

OpenBSD 4.5 works on 99.9% of PCs out there with mpbios enabled,
so KVM must have a really stupid bug.

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Re: What VM does OpenBSD run well under>

Josh Hoppes
I've had decent luck with VirtualBox as of late, in previous versions
VirtualBox would cause problems at install time bugging out when
extracting packages.

I've never had a problem with VMware though, but my experience is
limited. I've been running it under ESXi 4.0 for a while and it's been
very stable.

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Re: What VM does OpenBSD run well under>

Christopher Dukes
In reply to this post by Theo de Raadt
On Sat, Oct 31, 2009 at 05:50:57PM -0600, Theo de Raadt wrote:
> > OpenBSD 4.5+ works if "mpbios" is disabled, more info here:
> > http://scie.nti.st/2009/10/4/running-openbsd-4-5-in-kvm-on-ubuntu-linux-9-04
>
> OpenBSD 4.5 works on 99.9% of PCs out there with mpbios enabled,
> so KVM must have a really stupid bug.



Something about the mpbios implementation on OpenBSD does not seem
right as disabling with 'bsd -c' does not have the same result as
building a kernel with mpbios0 disabled in the config.  That and
your 99.9% comment lead me to believe there is a bug in OpenBSD.
Given
1) Per mpbios.c ACPI and a useable MPBIOS appear to be mutually exclusive
2) New PCs are shipping with ACPI instead of APM
3) GENERIC with mpbios enabled breaks on 0.1% of PCs.
I'm at a bit of a loss as to why mpbios is still enabled in GENERIC.


My memory of the brief discussion on the KVM mailing list was that
KVM/QEMU emulation of one of the instructions executed by going through
the mpbios code was mishandled.  If you'd like me to find the relevant
thread and forward it on to the mpbios maintainer, I'll gladly do so.

Now to pragmatic considerations.
I understand and appreciate your mistrust of running OpenBSD under
a virtual machine emulator.
But there are folks like me that find it useful to be able to
hold a dog and pony show for a network and cluster design on a
laptop rather than an anvil case of laptops, switches, and routers.


--
Chris Dukes

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Re: What VM does OpenBSD run well under>

Theo de Raadt
> On Sat, Oct 31, 2009 at 05:50:57PM -0600, Theo de Raadt wrote:
> > > OpenBSD 4.5+ works if "mpbios" is disabled, more info here:
> > > http://scie.nti.st/2009/10/4/running-openbsd-4-5-in-kvm-on-ubuntu-linux-9-04
> >
> > OpenBSD 4.5 works on 99.9% of PCs out there with mpbios enabled,
> > so KVM must have a really stupid bug.
>
>
>
> Something about the mpbios implementation on OpenBSD does not seem

Wait.  We don't implement MPBIOS.

It is a table provided by a machine.

That machine is KVM.

On all real machines machine, we don't crash.

Get it?

> right as disabling with 'bsd -c' does not have the same result as
> building a kernel with mpbios0 disabled in the config.  That and
> your 99.9% comment lead me to believe there is a bug in OpenBSD.
> Given
> 1) Per mpbios.c ACPI and a useable MPBIOS appear to be mutually exclusive

That would be false.

> 2) New PCs are shipping with ACPI instead of APM

What is your point?

> 3) GENERIC with mpbios enabled breaks on 0.1% of PCs.

No, that is not true.  The result we get with KVM does not happen
on *any real machine*.

> I'm at a bit of a loss as to why mpbios is still enabled in GENERIC.

To make you cry, obviously.  There couldn't be *any other explanation*
could there?

> My memory of the brief discussion on the KVM mailing list was that
> KVM/QEMU emulation of one of the instructions executed by going through
> the mpbios code was mishandled.  If you'd like me to find the relevant
> thread and forward it on to the mpbios maintainer, I'll gladly do so.

MPBIOS is a table given by the hardware.  KVM is trying to act as if
it is "hardware", but compared to even QEMU, it sucks.

> Now to pragmatic considerations.
> I understand and appreciate your mistrust of running OpenBSD under
> a virtual machine emulator.
> But there are folks like me that find it useful to be able to
> hold a dog and pony show for a network and cluster design on a
> laptop rather than an anvil case of laptops, switches, and routers.

That is not what is going on here.

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Re: What VM does OpenBSD run well under>

Ted Unangst-2
In reply to this post by Christopher Dukes
On Sat, Oct 31, 2009 at 11:29 PM, Chris Dukes <[hidden email]> wrote:
> I'm at a bit of a loss as to why mpbios is still enabled in GENERIC.

Because more machines work with mpbios that don't work without it than
machines that work without it but not with it.

> My memory of the brief discussion on the KVM mailing list was that
> KVM/QEMU emulation of one of the instructions executed by going through
> the mpbios code was mishandled.  If you'd like me to find the relevant
> thread and forward it on to the mpbios maintainer, I'll gladly do so.

If the KVM emulation of one the instructions is mishandled, I don't
understand how that is a bug in OpenBSD.

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Re: What VM does OpenBSD run well under>

Tomas Bodzar-4
In reply to this post by Christopher Dukes
After reading this
http://www.openbsd.org/cgi-bin/man.cgi?query=mpbios&apropos=0&sektion=0&manpa
th=OpenBSD+Current&arch=i386&format=html
I must say that for me it means that if you have crappy HW (in this
case KVM) then you can encounter problems.

On Sun, Nov 1, 2009 at 4:29 AM, Chris Dukes <[hidden email]> wrote:
> On Sat, Oct 31, 2009 at 05:50:57PM -0600, Theo de Raadt wrote:
>> > OpenBSD 4.5+ works if "mpbios" is disabled, more info here:
>> >
http://scie.nti.st/2009/10/4/running-openbsd-4-5-in-kvm-on-ubuntu-linux-9-04

>>
>> OpenBSD 4.5 works on 99.9% of PCs out there with mpbios enabled,
>> so KVM must have a really stupid bug.
>
>
>
> Something about the mpbios implementation on OpenBSD does not seem
> right as disabling with 'bsd -c' does not have the same result as
> building a kernel with mpbios0 disabled in the config. B That and
> your 99.9% comment lead me to believe there is a bug in OpenBSD.
> Given
> 1) Per mpbios.c ACPI and a useable MPBIOS appear to be mutually exclusive
> 2) New PCs are shipping with ACPI instead of APM
> 3) GENERIC with mpbios enabled breaks on 0.1% of PCs.
> I'm at a bit of a loss as to why mpbios is still enabled in GENERIC.
>
>
> My memory of the brief discussion on the KVM mailing list was that
> KVM/QEMU emulation of one of the instructions executed by going through
> the mpbios code was mishandled. B If you'd like me to find the relevant
> thread and forward it on to the mpbios maintainer, I'll gladly do so.
>
> Now to pragmatic considerations.
> I understand and appreciate your mistrust of running OpenBSD under
> a virtual machine emulator.
> But there are folks like me that find it useful to be able to
> hold a dog and pony show for a network and cluster design on a
> laptop rather than an anvil case of laptops, switches, and routers.
>
>
> --
> Chris Dukes

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Re: What VM does OpenBSD run well under>

Ross Cameron-2
OpenBSD 4.6 i386 seems quite happy in VirtualBox 3.0.10 r54097 (Fedora
11 i686 as a host).

No funnies at all, just boot the cd46.iso image and ftp install and no
issues whatsoever (SMP and non-SMP VMs).



2009/11/1 TomC!E! BodE>C!r <[hidden email]>:
> After reading this
>
http://www.openbsd.org/cgi-bin/man.cgi?query=mpbios&apropos=0&sektion=0&manpa
> th=OpenBSD+Current&arch=i386&format=html
> I must say that for me it means that if you have crappy HW (in this
> case KVM) then you can encounter problems.
>
> On Sun, Nov 1, 2009 at 4:29 AM, Chris Dukes <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> On Sat, Oct 31, 2009 at 05:50:57PM -0600, Theo de Raadt wrote:
>>> > OpenBSD 4.5+ works if "mpbios" is disabled, more info here:
>>> >
>
http://scie.nti.st/2009/10/4/running-openbsd-4-5-in-kvm-on-ubuntu-linux-9-04

>>>
>>> OpenBSD 4.5 works on 99.9% of PCs out there with mpbios enabled,
>>> so KVM must have a really stupid bug.
>>
>>
>>
>> Something about the mpbios implementation on OpenBSD does not seem
>> right as disabling with 'bsd -c' does not have the same result as
>> building a kernel with mpbios0 disabled in the config. B That and
>> your 99.9% comment lead me to believe there is a bug in OpenBSD.
>> Given
>> 1) Per mpbios.c ACPI and a useable MPBIOS appear to be mutually exclusive
>> 2) New PCs are shipping with ACPI instead of APM
>> 3) GENERIC with mpbios enabled breaks on 0.1% of PCs.
>> I'm at a bit of a loss as to why mpbios is still enabled in GENERIC.
>>
>>
>> My memory of the brief discussion on the KVM mailing list was that
>> KVM/QEMU emulation of one of the instructions executed by going through
>> the mpbios code was mishandled. B If you'd like me to find the relevant
>> thread and forward it on to the mpbios maintainer, I'll gladly do so.
>>
>> Now to pragmatic considerations.
>> I understand and appreciate your mistrust of running OpenBSD under
>> a virtual machine emulator.
>> But there are folks like me that find it useful to be able to
>> hold a dog and pony show for a network and cluster design on a
>> laptop rather than an anvil case of laptops, switches, and routers.
>>
>>
>> --
>> Chris Dukes
>
>



--
"Opportunity is most often missed by people because it is dressed in
overalls and looks like work."
    Thomas Alva Edison
    Inventor of 1093 patents, including:
        The light bulb, phonogram and motion pictures.

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Re: What VM does OpenBSD run well under>

Gabriel Guzman-2
On Sun, 1 Nov 2009 18:24:21 +0200
Ross Cameron <[hidden email]> wrote:

> OpenBSD 4.6 i386 seems quite happy in VirtualBox 3.0.10 r54097 (Fedora
> 11 i686 as a host).
>
> No funnies at all, just boot the cd46.iso image and ftp install and no
> issues whatsoever (SMP and non-SMP VMs).

Same with -current... even builds fine.

gabe.