[WWW] Reverse chronological order for faq/current.html

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[WWW] Reverse chronological order for faq/current.html

Raf Czlonka-2
Hi all,

As faq/current.html[0] grows, each major change is being added at
the very bottom, chronologically. There already are several other
pages where this kind of ordering makes sense, i.e. innovations.html[1].

Given the "current" (unintentional pun) nature of changes on the
aforementioned page, it seem like reverse chronological order would
suit it better, as is the case with, i.e. events.html[2].

The proposed change has a clear benefit to those following -current
- i.e. not having to scroll all the way to the bottom of the page
(whichever way one does it) to get the information about the most
recent changes - since they would always be available at the very
top.

Obviously, doing it now, before the -release has been cut, doesn't
make any sense whatsoever, but the change could be implemented when
faq/current.html gets a reset... perhaps even with a style guide
as it is done in events.html?

        <!-- STYLE NOTES:
            Place past events in most-recent-first order.
        [...]
        -->

What do people think about introducing such change?

Regards,

Raf

[0] https://www.openbsd.org/faq/current.html
[1] https://www.openbsd.org/innovations.html
[2] https://www.openbsd.org/events.html

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Re: [WWW] Reverse chronological order for faq/current.html

Theo de Raadt-2
> As faq/current.html[0] grows, each major change is being added at
> the very bottom, chronologically. There already are several other
> pages where this kind of ordering makes sense, i.e. innovations.html[1].
>
> Given the "current" (unintentional pun) nature of changes on the
> aforementioned page, it seem like reverse chronological order would
> suit it better, as is the case with, i.e. events.html[2].

This page includes remedial actions a current-follower needs, which
are generally cut&pasted.  A reader decides "Where was I last time",
then would intuitively move forward.

The proposal doesn't make sense to me.

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Re: [WWW] Reverse chronological order for faq/current.html

Raf Czlonka-2
On Mon, Jan 23, 2017 at 11:46:52PM GMT, Theo de Raadt wrote:

> > As faq/current.html[0] grows, each major change is being added at
> > the very bottom, chronologically. There already are several other
> > pages where this kind of ordering makes sense, i.e. innovations.html[1].
> >
> > Given the "current" (unintentional pun) nature of changes on the
> > aforementioned page, it seem like reverse chronological order would
> > suit it better, as is the case with, i.e. events.html[2].
>
> This page includes remedial actions a current-follower needs, which
> are generally cut&pasted.

Sure.

> A reader decides "Where was I last time", then would intuitively
> move forward.

Yes, that's one way to look at it - it is the way I, and everybody
else, have been doing.

Another way to look at it is, "Let me have a look if there's anything
new on faq/current.html - I open the page and, *without* moving
forward, can see straight away if something new has been added. No?
Then I move on with my life without scrolling down or doing anything
else apart from opening the page". Given OpenBSD's rapid development,
new entries on faq/current.html appear quite frequently - I'm only
thinking of the tiny amount of time saved each time.

> The proposal doesn't make sense to me.

Duly noted :^)

Raf

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Re: [WWW] Reverse chronological order for faq/current.html

Theo de Raadt-2
> Another way to look at it is, "Let me have a look if there's anything
> new on faq/current.html - I open the page and, *without* moving
> forward, can see straight away if something new has been added. No?
> Then I move on with my life without scrolling down or doing anything
> else apart from opening the page". Given OpenBSD's rapid development,
> new entries on faq/current.html appear quite frequently - I'm only
> thinking of the tiny amount of time saved each time.

Yes clearly I'm not considering your valuable time.

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Re: [WWW] Reverse chronological order for faq/current.html

STeve Andre'
On 01/24/17 04:08, Theo de Raadt wrote:

>> Another way to look at it is, "Let me have a look if there's anything
>> new on faq/current.html - I open the page and, *without* moving
>> forward, can see straight away if something new has been added. No?
>> Then I move on with my life without scrolling down or doing anything
>> else apart from opening the page". Given OpenBSD's rapid development,
>> new entries on faq/current.html appear quite frequently - I'm only
>> thinking of the tiny amount of time saved each time.
>
> Yes clearly I'm not considering your valuable time.
>
>

Raf, think about the physical world.  When people add things to a list
like a posting on a bulletin board, it goes at the end.  People just
know to look at the end for anything new.  So it is online.  The effort
to scroll down is pretty small.

--STeve Andre'

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Re: [WWW] Reverse chronological order for faq/current.html

Stuart Henderson
In reply to this post by Raf Czlonka-2
On 2017/01/24 09:06, Raf Czlonka wrote:
> Another way to look at it is, "Let me have a look if there's anything
> new on faq/current.html - I open the page and, *without* moving
> forward, can see straight away if something new has been added.

Since we've been doing it the other way for 12 years, I think it would
likely cause confusion for existing users..

> Then I move on with my life without scrolling down or doing anything
> else apart from opening the page". Given OpenBSD's rapid development,
> new entries on faq/current.html appear quite frequently - I'm only
> thinking of the tiny amount of time saved each time.

If you're running current, I'd recommend keeping an eye on the
source-changes list, then you'll already know if there's something new
which affects you :-)

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Re: [WWW] Reverse chronological order for faq/current.html

Theo de Raadt-2
> On 2017/01/24 09:06, Raf Czlonka wrote:
> > Another way to look at it is, "Let me have a look if there's anything
> > new on faq/current.html - I open the page and, *without* moving
> > forward, can see straight away if something new has been added.
>
> Since we've been doing it the other way for 12 years, I think it would
> likely cause confusion for existing users..

For Raf,

http://tinyurl.com/jakb5bb

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Re: [WWW] Reverse chronological order for faq/current.html

Nick Holland
In reply to this post by Raf Czlonka-2
On 01/24/17 04:06, Raf Czlonka wrote:
...
> Another way to look at it is, "Let me have a look if there's anything
> new on faq/current.html - I open the page and, *without* moving
> forward, can see straight away if something new has been added. No?
> Then I move on with my life without scrolling down or doing anything
> else apart from opening the page". Given OpenBSD's rapid development,
> new entries on faq/current.html appear quite frequently - I'm only
> thinking of the tiny amount of time saved each time.

What I think you are not thinking of is that in addition to being a list
of things that have changed, it is also a list of changes that have to
be done ... often IN PARTICULAR ORDER.

As it is, you read down until you hit where you are, then follow the
instructions in order.  "more difficult" in your argument, but logical.

As you propose, you read down until you find where you are not, then
change directions and read backwards.  That's not intuitive, normal, or
reasonable to expect.  Most likely, your plan will have people making
changes in reverse order...which may often work, but sometimes
won't...and won't be the order the developers will be testing.

Nick.

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Re: [WWW] Reverse chronological order for faq/current.html

Raf Czlonka-2
In reply to this post by Theo de Raadt-2
On Tue, Jan 24, 2017 at 09:08:07AM GMT, Theo de Raadt wrote:

> > Another way to look at it is, "Let me have a look if there's anything
> > new on faq/current.html - I open the page and, *without* moving
> > forward, can see straight away if something new has been added. No?
> > Then I move on with my life without scrolling down or doing anything
> > else apart from opening the page". Given OpenBSD's rapid development,
> > new entries on faq/current.html appear quite frequently - I'm only
> > thinking of the tiny amount of time saved each time.
>
> Yes clearly I'm not considering your valuable time.
>

There's no need for that.

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Re: [WWW] Reverse chronological order for faq/current.html

Raf Czlonka-2
In reply to this post by STeve Andre'
On Tue, Jan 24, 2017 at 09:13:51AM GMT, STeve Andre' wrote:

> On 01/24/17 04:08, Theo de Raadt wrote:
> > > Another way to look at it is, "Let me have a look if there's anything
> > > new on faq/current.html - I open the page and, *without* moving
> > > forward, can see straight away if something new has been added. No?
> > > Then I move on with my life without scrolling down or doing anything
> > > else apart from opening the page". Given OpenBSD's rapid development,
> > > new entries on faq/current.html appear quite frequently - I'm only
> > > thinking of the tiny amount of time saved each time.
> >
> > Yes clearly I'm not considering your valuable time.
> >
> >
>
> Raf, think about the physical world.  When people add things to a list
> like a posting on a bulletin board, it goes at the end.  People just
> know to look at the end for anything new.  So it is online.  The effort
> to scroll down is pretty small.

STeve, I've already given an example where reverse chronology is
being used, another being CVS revision history, i.e. [0], so the
above isn't always true.

Regards,

Raf

[0] http://cvsweb.openbsd.org/cgi-bin/cvsweb/src/Makefile

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Re: [WWW] Reverse chronological order for faq/current.html

Raf Czlonka-2
In reply to this post by Stuart Henderson
On Tue, Jan 24, 2017 at 10:26:21AM GMT, Stuart Henderson wrote:
> On 2017/01/24 09:06, Raf Czlonka wrote:
> > Another way to look at it is, "Let me have a look if there's anything
> > new on faq/current.html - I open the page and, *without* moving
> > forward, can see straight away if something new has been added.
>
> Since we've been doing it the other way for 12 years, I think it would
> likely cause confusion for existing users..

I've read somewhere that "We've always done it this way." is the
most dangerous phrase in the language :^)

I completely agree with the latter - every major change requires
re-education.

> > Then I move on with my life without scrolling down or doing anything
> > else apart from opening the page". Given OpenBSD's rapid development,
> > new entries on faq/current.html appear quite frequently - I'm only
> > thinking of the tiny amount of time saved each time.
>
> If you're running current, I'd recommend keeping an eye on the
> source-changes list, then you'll already know if there's something new
> which affects you :-)
>

I've been doing that for a long time but cannot always keep up with
the volume :^)

Cheers,

Raf

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Re: [WWW] Reverse chronological order for faq/current.html

Raf Czlonka-2
In reply to this post by Theo de Raadt-2
On Tue, Jan 24, 2017 at 10:29:30AM GMT, Theo de Raadt wrote:

> > On 2017/01/24 09:06, Raf Czlonka wrote:
> > > Another way to look at it is, "Let me have a look if there's anything
> > > new on faq/current.html - I open the page and, *without* moving
> > > forward, can see straight away if something new has been added.
> >
> > Since we've been doing it the other way for 12 years, I think it would
> > likely cause confusion for existing users..
>
> For Raf,
>
> http://tinyurl.com/jakb5bb
>

I was expecting that one. Still, made me chuckle :^)

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Re: [WWW] Reverse chronological order for faq/current.html

Raf Czlonka-2
In reply to this post by Nick Holland
On Tue, Jan 24, 2017 at 01:13:03PM GMT, Nick Holland wrote:

> On 01/24/17 04:06, Raf Czlonka wrote:
> ...
> > Another way to look at it is, "Let me have a look if there's anything
> > new on faq/current.html - I open the page and, *without* moving
> > forward, can see straight away if something new has been added. No?
> > Then I move on with my life without scrolling down or doing anything
> > else apart from opening the page". Given OpenBSD's rapid development,
> > new entries on faq/current.html appear quite frequently - I'm only
> > thinking of the tiny amount of time saved each time.
>
> What I think you are not thinking of is that in addition to being a list
> of things that have changed, it is also a list of changes that have to
> be done ... often IN PARTICULAR ORDER.
>
> As it is, you read down until you hit where you are, then follow the
> instructions in order.  "more difficult" in your argument, but logical.
>
> As you propose, you read down until you find where you are not, then
> change directions and read backwards.  That's not intuitive, normal, or
> reasonable to expect.  Most likely, your plan will have people making
> changes in reverse order...which may often work, but sometimes
> won't...and won't be the order the developers will be testing.

Hi Nick,

This is the most reasonable reply I have received thus far :^)

Thanks,

Raf