Updated CCD Mirroring HOWTO

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Updated CCD Mirroring HOWTO

Robbert Haarman-3
Dear list, especially Greg and Mickey,

I've updated the working copy of the CCD Mirroring HOWTO. In particular,
I've split off the comparison to software RAID into a separate section
and clarified that ccd does not do automatic recovery, and I've
rewritten the section on labeling to state that the c partition must be
set to unused, and normal partitions created instead.

Please take a look at
http://morgenes.shire.sytes.net/~inglorion/documents/tutorials/ccd/ and
let me know what you think about the new wording.

Bob

---
The only thing you know for sure is that you never know anything for sure.

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Re: Updated CCD Mirroring HOWTO

J.C. Roberts-2
On Fri, 25 Nov 2005 17:52:51 +0100, Robbert Haarman
<[hidden email]> wrote:

>Dear list, especially Greg and Mickey,
>
>I've updated the working copy of the CCD Mirroring HOWTO. In particular,
>I've split off the comparison to software RAID into a separate section
>and clarified that ccd does not do automatic recovery, and I've
>rewritten the section on labeling to state that the c partition must be
>set to unused, and normal partitions created instead.
>
>Please take a look at
>http://morgenes.shire.sytes.net/~inglorion/documents/tutorials/ccd/ and
>let me know what you think about the new wording.
>
>Bob
>
>---
>The only thing you know for sure is that you never know anything for sure.


Hi Bob,

It seems you either disagree with consensus or you have no idea what the
general consensus is regarding correct documentation.

The goal of correct documentation is to transfer very detailed knowledge
to the users, system administrators and coders who _NEED_ to know the
details in order to make educated decisions.

Things like "HowTo" documents, sites like openbsdsupport.org and lists
like openbsd-newbie@ are more often than not considered garbage. The
reason is simply because you are robbing the reader of the fundamental
and important details that the reader _NEEDS_ to learn. By providing
short-cut documents to just get things working, you are sabotaging the
learning process of the reader.

The "Quick Start" section of your document is missing a lot of things,
in particular, the generally accepted way to "Quick Start" anything on
OpenBSD.

1.) Read *_ALL_* relevant man pages, completely and repeatedly until you
understand them.
2.) Search the mailing list archives for related information.
3.) Search the commit logs for any new developments and/or corrections.

The above is the "Quick Start" for doing anything with OpenBSD and yes,
it's a lot of work and takes a lot of time.

By creating incomplete, incorrect and generally dumbed-down "HowTo"
documentation, you are undermining all of the hard work that goes into
the creating and maintaining correct documentation. If end-users are
lazy and want to take the easy way out, they should go back to using
linux and MS-Windows. They are not welcome here. The same is true for
those who try to inflate their own egos by writing "HowTo" docs which
only pander to the laziness of others.

People around here have been really trying to be polite recently. The
thing that got me personally was realizing that these days there are
young kids reading these lists. None the less, don't let my politeness
fool you; I still think you are an arrogant, egotistical asshole who has
shown blatant disregard for the education and well being of others as
well as shown complete disrespect to the authors who spend their time
and effort writing correct code and documentation so people can actually
learn and do something useful.

If you really want me or anyone around here to change their mind about
you and the crap you're producing, then replace your supposed "HowTo"
with links to the relevant man pages.

If perchance this assessment of you and your work has incited you enough
to turn on your personal flame thrower, then please send me your flames
off list. It is my opinion that you have made a serious mistake by not
knowing or not understanding the generally accepted consensus about
correct documentation and regardless of your probable flames, you won't
change my mind or the minds of most long time users and contributors.

Sincerely,
JCR

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Re: Updated CCD Mirroring HOWTO

Robbert Haarman-3
Dear JCR,

Thank you for your informative message.

> Things like "HowTo" documents, sites like openbsdsupport.org and lists
> like openbsd-newbie@ are more often than not considered garbage. The
> reason is simply because you are robbing the reader of the fundamental
> and important details that the reader _NEEDS_ to learn. By providing
> short-cut documents to just get things working, you are sabotaging the
> learning process of the reader.

I see. That's a good point.

> The "Quick Start" section of your document is missing a lot of things,
> in particular, the generally accepted way to "Quick Start" anything on
> OpenBSD.
>
> 1.) Read *_ALL_* relevant man pages, completely and repeatedly until you
> understand them.
> 2.) Search the mailing list archives for related information.
> 3.) Search the commit logs for any new developments and/or corrections.

I will add these steps to the HOWTO, making it clear that nobody on the
mailing list should be bugged with questions before these steps have
been taken.

> If end-users are lazy and want to take the easy way out, they should
> go back to using linux and MS-Windows. They are not welcome here.

That's a pity. I personally think OpenBSD is the _only_ operating system
that takes security as seriously as it should be taken, and it would be
in everybody's (well, almost everybody's) best interest if they used it.
There is nothing wrong with the project not wanting certain users, but
it leaves these users with a choice among evils, which is a pity.

> People around here have been really trying to be polite recently. The
> thing that got me personally was realizing that these days there are
> young kids reading these lists. None the less, don't let my politeness
> fool you; I still think you are an arrogant, egotistical asshole who has
> shown blatant disregard for the education and well being of others as
> well as shown complete disrespect to the authors who spend their time
> and effort writing correct code and documentation so people can actually
> learn and do something useful.

I really appreciate your politeness, and also appreciate you pointing
out your real feelings in no uncertain words.

> If you really want me or anyone around here to change their mind about
> you and the crap you're producing, then replace your supposed "HowTo"
> with links to the relevant man pages.

The reason I wrote the HOWTO is that, in my opinion of course, the
manpages don't make it clear how to set things up. Searching the
archives for more information came up with some contradictory messages,
and some instances of people being misled by the way things worked and
the way things were described in the manpages. My HOWTO is an effort to
gather the relevant information in one place, and provide clear steps
for getting things working. Replacing the HOWTO with links to the
manpages is not an option, because, first of all, the manpages don't
provide the information that the HOWTO does, and secondly, the manpages
are already assumed to have been read, so linking to them again wouldn't
add anything.

I completely understand your position that documentation should provide
the details people need to understand how things work. I agree with
that. I would have provided this information if I had, myself, known how
things work. However, I don't know this, and it seems the only way to
find it out would be to read the source code of various parts of the
kernel. Still, I figured I had learned enough to write a useful and
helpful document that at least described how to get things running. You
clearly think this is harmful; I think it might help some people.

> If perchance this assessment of you and your work has incited you enough
> to turn on your personal flame thrower,

Not at all. Your piece is very well reasoned and even you calling me an
arrogant asshole serves a good purpose.

> It is my opinion that you have made a serious mistake by not
> knowing or not understanding the generally accepted consensus about
> correct documentation

In that case, you couldn't have done better than to point it out to me,
and I'm very grateful that you did.

> you won't change my mind or the minds of most long time users and
> contributors.

I have no intention of doing so. I think your position is perfectly
valid. I also think my quest of providing clearer information and making
things more accessible is perfectly valid. I can only hope you agree.

Sincerely,

Bob

---
Computers have made our lives much more efficient.
Now we can do many more useless things in one day.

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Re: Updated CCD Mirroring HOWTO

Otto Moerbeek
On Sat, 26 Nov 2005, Robbert Haarman wrote:

> The reason I wrote the HOWTO is that, in my opinion of course, the
> manpages don't make it clear how to set things up. Searching the
> archives for more information came up with some contradictory messages,
> and some instances of people being misled by the way things worked and
> the way things were described in the manpages. My HOWTO is an effort to
> gather the relevant information in one place, and provide clear steps
> for getting things working. Replacing the HOWTO with links to the
> manpages is not an option, because, first of all, the manpages don't
> provide the information that the HOWTO does, and secondly, the manpages
> are already assumed to have been read, so linking to them again wouldn't
> add anything.
>
> I completely understand your position that documentation should provide
> the details people need to understand how things work. I agree with
> that. I would have provided this information if I had, myself, known how
> things work. However, I don't know this, and it seems the only way to
> find it out would be to read the source code of various parts of the
> kernel. Still, I figured I had learned enough to write a useful and
> helpful document that at least described how to get things running. You
> clearly think this is harmful; I think it might help some people.

It is much more helpfull if you describe what information you feel is
missing, unclear or incorrect in the man pages.

Getting things running on a certain setup does not mean your procedure
will work in another situation. That's the big danger of promoting
some notes on how you did something to something that is suggesting it
is the right way of doing things.

Man pages are the autorative documentation. If you find them lacking,
help us in making them better.

        -Otto

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Re: Updated CCD Mirroring HOWTO

J.C. Roberts-2
In reply to this post by Robbert Haarman-3
To the rest of list users; Please pardon another long email from me on
this. Helping reasonable people like Robbert understand why many people
consider "HOWTO's" to be harmful is hopefully worth the added noise and
bandwidth.


On Sat, 26 Nov 2005 10:57:12 +0100, Robbert Haarman
<[hidden email]> wrote:

>Dear JCR,
>
>Thank you for your informative message.
>
>> Things like "HowTo" documents, sites like openbsdsupport.org and lists
>> like openbsd-newbie@ are more often than not considered garbage. The
>> reason is simply because you are robbing the reader of the fundamental
>> and important details that the reader _NEEDS_ to learn. By providing
>> short-cut documents to just get things working, you are sabotaging the
>> learning process of the reader.
>
>I see. That's a good point.
>
>> The "Quick Start" section of your document is missing a lot of things,
>> in particular, the generally accepted way to "Quick Start" anything on
>> OpenBSD.
>>
>> 1.) Read *_ALL_* relevant man pages, completely and repeatedly until you
>> understand them.
>> 2.) Search the mailing list archives for related information.
>> 3.) Search the commit logs for any new developments and/or corrections.
>
>I will add these steps to the HOWTO, making it clear that nobody on the
>mailing list should be bugged with questions before these steps have
>been taken.
>
>> If end-users are lazy and want to take the easy way out, they should
>> go back to using linux and MS-Windows. They are not welcome here.
>
>That's a pity. I personally think OpenBSD is the _only_ operating system
>that takes security as seriously as it should be taken, and it would be
>in everybody's (well, almost everybody's) best interest if they used it.
>There is nothing wrong with the project not wanting certain users, but
>it leaves these users with a choice among evils, which is a pity.
>

Both security and reliability are really nothing more than a byproduct
of correctness and well informed decisions. There are many people on
this planet who just want to _USE_ a computer for something, such as a
task or entertainment, but they really have no desire to learn how
things actually work, so they must rely on competent administrators to
handle the details.

The pity is not whether or not some users are welcome. The real pity is
current technology has yet to produce a computer that the average user
can, own, operate and maintain without either significant knowledge of
their own or significant resources to pay professionals to do the dirty
work.

It is really no different than the history of the automotive industry.
In the beginning when the complexity of technical advancements was not
too prevalent, the knowledge needed for maintenance and repair was not a
insurmountable impediment to car owners doing their own work. These days
it's much different.

>> People around here have been really trying to be polite recently. The
>> thing that got me personally was realizing that these days there are
>> young kids reading these lists. None the less, don't let my politeness
>> fool you; I still think you are an arrogant, egotistical asshole who has
>> shown blatant disregard for the education and well being of others as
>> well as shown complete disrespect to the authors who spend their time
>> and effort writing correct code and documentation so people can actually
>> learn and do something useful.
>
>I really appreciate your politeness, and also appreciate you pointing
>out your real feelings in no uncertain words.
>
>> If you really want me or anyone around here to change their mind about
>> you and the crap you're producing, then replace your supposed "HowTo"
>> with links to the relevant man pages.
>
>The reason I wrote the HOWTO is that, in my opinion of course, the
>manpages don't make it clear how to set things up. Searching the
>archives for more information came up with some contradictory messages,
>and some instances of people being misled by the way things worked and
>the way things were described in the manpages. My HOWTO is an effort to
>gather the relevant information in one place, and provide clear steps
>for getting things working.

Therein lies a significant difference of opinion between you and I. The
steps provided by HOWTO documents do not give clarity, instead they hand
you a blindfold and tell you which way to walk. At times they might lead
you to the correct destination but at other times they have you walk the
plank. Regardless if you manage to reach your desired location, the
blindfold has prevented you from observing your surroundings and
learning from them.

>Replacing the HOWTO with links to the
>manpages is not an option, because, first of all, the manpages don't
>provide the information that the HOWTO does, and secondly, the manpages
>are already assumed to have been read, so linking to them again wouldn't
>add anything.
>
>I completely understand your position that documentation should provide
>the details people need to understand how things work. I agree with
>that. I would have provided this information if I had, myself, known how
>things work. However, I don't know this, and it seems the only way to
>find it out would be to read the source code of various parts of the
>kernel. Still, I figured I had learned enough to write a useful and
>helpful document that at least described how to get things running. You
>clearly think this is harmful; I think it might help some people.
>

Since you knew that you didn't really know, the result of your good
intentions is nothing more than the blind leading the blind. To the rest
of the world, your steps look a bit odd, kinda like the way Ray Charles
and Stevie Wonder bob their heads while performing.

>> If perchance this assessment of you and your work has incited you enough
>> to turn on your personal flame thrower,
>
>Not at all. Your piece is very well reasoned and even you calling me an
>arrogant asshole serves a good purpose.
>

A good purpose but still, I owe you an apology for that one. It was over
the top and unnecessary. Unfortunately, you just happen to be the
"Breaking Point" on this topic for many people around here including
myself.

>> It is my opinion that you have made a serious mistake by not
>> knowing or not understanding the generally accepted consensus about
>> correct documentation
>
>In that case, you couldn't have done better than to point it out to me,
>and I'm very grateful that you did.
>
>> you won't change my mind or the minds of most long time users and
>> contributors.
>
>I have no intention of doing so. I think your position is perfectly
>valid. I also think my quest of providing clearer information and making
>things more accessible is perfectly valid. I can only hope you agree.
>
>Sincerely,
>
>Bob
>

Dropping kicking an inexperienced user into the "Book of Man" is
undoubtedly abrupt and in some ways unfair, so your quest of making
things more accessible to a new user definitely has some validity. Since
providing a blindfold and steps to follow is a fools game and fools
gain, would you consider a different approach?

There are times at conferences and in magazines where people put
together articles about particular features in OpenBSD and they
occasionally include a few configuration details. This approach is great
but the goal is often to just highlight the feature, so people become
aware that the feature exists rather than give complete details.

Looking through history, once again, provides an alternative approach
that might just work. In the days before the average person knew how to
read, the person in the group who did know, preformed a "reading" from
said Holy Book and along with a homily of explanation and insight for
the passage. This age old tradition still exists in all cultures on the
planet and in areas from religious to academic.

You are legally able to copy the OpenBSD man pages, so there is really
nothing stopping you from quoting them a chunk at a time and adding your
own insight, explanations and experience. By privately contacting the
authors and maintainers of both the code and man pages, you can easily
double check your work to prevent spreading misinformation. Provide
explanations of the steps you took as well as explanations of all the
other possible steps a user might want or need to take.

By the time you are done with such an endeavor and double check your
work privately with others, you will at least know the subject matter
well enough to provide useful instruction to others. It would be a lot
of work and obviously, the result would be a lot longer than the man
pages you include. None the less, a lengthy document providing a
"reading" of the Techno-Latin from the "Book of Man" and a homily about
what should be learned is far better than a HOWTO that claims to be a
short-cut way to set up mirroring but actually provides the steps needed
to possibly fry your disks through misconfiguration.

There might be other good ways to go about making things more accessible
to users but the methods you are currently using are really a disservice
to others in spite of your good intentions.

How would you feel if some newbie found your original HOWTO through
google, never read your mailing list post asking for validation and
followed your instructions only to lose all of his data due to your
mistakes?

Though I'm generally considered extremely good with information systems,
I know damn well that mickey@ could geek-slap me into tomorrow without
breaking a sweat. Trying to argue with him about your mistake only shows
your inexperience and unwillingness to do things correctly such as
actually researching the topic upon which you are trying to enlighten
others.

Your goal of making things more accessible is amiable and your
intentions are good but your methods are seriously flawed. Writing a
HOWTO without really knowing the subject matter or discussing it
privately with those who do was nothing more than you taking the easy
way out. If you wonder why other people seem offended by your good
intentions, it is because you took the easy way out yourself as well as
provided an easy way out for others.

Doing things correctly takes a lot of time, effort and expertise. If you
don't think correctness is important, then you will not find a lot of
sympathy for your views around here, in fact, you'll find most people
are extremely offended by them. If you really want to make the
Techno-Latin in the man pages more accessible to mere mortals, you will
need to do a lot more work than just lazily slapping the incorrect steps
you invented on a HOWTO web page.

If correctness was extremely important to you and you had extended the
time and effort to ensure the greatest degree of correctness you could
in your code and docs, would you be offended if I came along with an
erroneous and lethargically tossed together "HOWTO" about your hard
work?

How about if I wanted to publicly argue with you that I'm right and
you're wrong?

In a nutshell, what you have done is perform sacrilege multiple times,
on multiple fronts and against multiple people. Your insistence on
keeping your "HOWTO" publicly available on the Internet indicates both
your apologies and your claims of security being important are not
sincere. Unless you are at least dedicated to, if not obsessed with,
correctness your good intentions and amiable goals will continue to do
more damage than good.

You seem like a very reasonable person, so I hope you take step back
from your personal perspective to think things through a bit more from
other points of view. When you do, you'll see your Stevie Wonder
impersonation is really quite impressive. ;-)

Kind Regards,
JCR

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Re: Updated CCD Mirroring HOWTO

Said Outgajjouft
In reply to this post by Robbert Haarman-3
Robbert Haarman wrote:

>>If end-users are lazy and want to take the easy way out, they should
>>go back to using linux and MS-Windows. They are not welcome here.
>>    
>>
>
>That's a pity. I personally think OpenBSD is the _only_ operating system
>that takes security as seriously as it should be taken, and it would be
>in everybody's (well, almost everybody's) best interest if they used it.
>There is nothing wrong with the project not wanting certain users, but
>it leaves these users with a choice among evils, which is a pity.
>  
>
Because OpenBSD takes security seriously doesn't mean you as a user don't
have to. If you don't understand what the different settings do, then it
will be impossible for you to set up a server securely for your needs.

That's why the man pages are considered a bug if they are wrong because
then they will fool the user into doing wrong things.

That's why HOWTO that is inaccurate will defeat the OpenBSD effort to be
secure and user will end up with an insecure setup and think it's secure
because OpenBSD is considered secure. Only the a correct setup for your
needs will make OpenBSD secure and in order to do that you need to
understand what you are doing so study the man pages before changing
settings.

Laziness leads to insecure systems.


OpenBSD keep it real by keeping it free!
Said Outgajjouft

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Re: Updated CCD Mirroring HOWTO

Tony Aberenthy
In reply to this post by J.C. Roberts-2
J.C. Roberts wrote:
> To the rest of list users; Please pardon another long email from me on
> this. Helping reasonable people like Robbert understand why many people
> consider "HOWTO's" to be harmful is hopefully worth the added noise and
> bandwidth.
>
>
> On Sat, 26 Nov 2005 10:57:12 +0100, Robbert Haarman
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
[snip]

> >> If end-users are lazy and want to take the easy way out, they should
> >> go back to using linux and MS-Windows. They are not welcome here.
> >
> >That's a pity. I personally think OpenBSD is the _only_ operating system
> >that takes security as seriously as it should be taken, and it would be
> >in everybody's (well, almost everybody's) best interest if they used it.
> >There is nothing wrong with the project not wanting certain users, but
> >it leaves these users with a choice among evils, which is a pity.
> >
>
> Both security and reliability are really nothing more than a byproduct
> of correctness and well informed decisions.


That's the point.
Note the "nothing more". And the "byproduct".
If you throw away the correctness, and the effort it requires,
the security and reliability won't be around for long.

Yes, OpenBSD is the _only_ operating system that takes security as
seriously as it should be taken. Consider the why of OpenBSD's
accomplishments. Remove the why and you remove what they accomplished.
Use OpenBSD and think like Windows and get Windows security.

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Re: Updated CCD Mirroring HOWTO

J.C. Roberts-2
On Sat, 26 Nov 2005 09:34:39 -0600, <[hidden email]> wrote:

>J.C. Roberts wrote:
>> To the rest of list users; Please pardon another long email from me on
>> this. Helping reasonable people like Robbert understand why many people
>> consider "HOWTO's" to be harmful is hopefully worth the added noise and
>> bandwidth.
>>
>>
>> On Sat, 26 Nov 2005 10:57:12 +0100, Robbert Haarman
>> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>[snip]
>> >> If end-users are lazy and want to take the easy way out, they should
>> >> go back to using linux and MS-Windows. They are not welcome here.
>> >
>> >That's a pity. I personally think OpenBSD is the _only_ operating system
>> >that takes security as seriously as it should be taken, and it would be
>> >in everybody's (well, almost everybody's) best interest if they used it.
>> >There is nothing wrong with the project not wanting certain users, but
>> >it leaves these users with a choice among evils, which is a pity.
>> >
>>
>> Both security and reliability are really nothing more than a byproduct
>> of correctness and well informed decisions.
>
>
>That's the point.
>Note the "nothing more". And the "byproduct".
>If you throw away the correctness, and the effort it requires,
>the security and reliability won't be around for long.
>
>Yes, OpenBSD is the _only_ operating system that takes security as
>seriously as it should be taken. Consider the why of OpenBSD's
>accomplishments. Remove the why and you remove what they accomplished.
>Use OpenBSD and think like Windows and get Windows security.

Thanks Tony! In couple of sentences you perfectly covered what took me
pages to explain.

And sometimes I wonder why no one ever accuses me of brevity.  ;-)

Kind Regards,
JCR

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Re: Updated CCD Mirroring HOWTO

Michael Quaintance
J.C. Roberts wrote:

>>>Both security and reliability are really nothing more than a byproduct
>>>of correctness and well informed decisions.
>>>      
>>>
>>On Sat, 26 Nov 2005 09:34:39 -0600, <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>That's the point.
>>Note the "nothing more". And the "byproduct".
>>If you throw away the correctness, and the effort it requires,
>>the security and reliability won't be around for long.
>>
>>Yes, OpenBSD is the _only_ operating system that takes security as
>>seriously as it should be taken. Consider the why of OpenBSD's
>>accomplishments. Remove the why and you remove what they accomplished.
>>Use OpenBSD and think like Windows and get Windows security.
>>    
>>
>
>Thanks Tony! In couple of sentences you perfectly covered what took me
>pages to explain.
>
>And sometimes I wonder why no one ever accuses me of brevity.  ;-)
>
>Kind Regards,
>JCR
>  
>
JCR,

/Please/ don't loose your verbosity.

For newbies like me, your lengthy descriptions of why the OpenBSD
community thinks like it does are incredibly useful. Short, pithy
explanations like Tony's are great for people who already understand but
those of us just starting on our quest can often find them as cryptic as
the proverbs of Buddha.

For my job, I write bootstraps and device drivers for real-time embedded
systems and my biggest problem is when the documentation is missing,
wrong, or worst of all, contradictory (*cough* Motorola *cough* Wind
River *cough*).

What I most like about OpenBSD is the philosophy that nothing is done by
magic. It works because it was designed correctly, implemented
correctly, documented correctly. Nothing is done without you explicitly
asking for it. I am sure it would be a cold day in hell before a
paperclip popped up and said "It looks like you're configuring sendmail.
Would you like help with this feature?"

However, for one who is not yet enlightened, the most annoying thing
about OpenBSD is trying to work out what you actually need to know. E.g.
you have downloaded a .iso file and you know that there must be a way to
open it without having to burn it to a disc. You search the man pages,
google, etc but how do you find out that the feature you need is
vnconfig(8)? (alright, so I actually did find it through google and the
neohapsis archives of misc@).

Anyway thanks for responding to Robbert's thread. You have definitely
helped me to understand the attitudes of the community.

-Penfold

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Re: Updated CCD Mirroring HOWTO

J.C. Roberts-2
On Sat, 26 Nov 2005 17:00:39 +0000, Michael Quaintance
<[hidden email]> wrote:

>JCR,
>
>/Please/ don't loose your verbosity.
>
>For newbies like me, your lengthy descriptions of why the OpenBSD
>community thinks like it does are incredibly useful. Short, pithy
>explanations like Tony's are great for people who already understand but
>those of us just starting on our quest can often find them as cryptic as
>the proverbs of Buddha.

Michael,

Please do not mistake me and my opinions for the opinions of the OpenBSD
community in general. OpenBSD users and developers actually thrive on
the conflict of differing opinions; a reasonably friendly competition to
figure out and prove both what works and what works best.

More importantly, do not mistake my opinions as being those of an
OpenBSD DEVELOPER. Though some of them might agree with me, others will
not. The OpenBSD developers have their own community and social group
which is private, exclusive and based on what you do. Unless you have
the dedication it takes to do a *LOT* for the project you'll never know
what their community is like. I'm not a developer and not part of their
internal community but I do know it exists.

I'm just a normal user who doesn't contribute a great deal to the
project, so there is a *HUGE* difference between me and the people who
actually have both the expertise and dedication needed to write quality
code to improve the project. -To them, I'm just another loud mouth
chatting away on misc@ rather than doing something more productive.

Kind Regards,
JCR

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Re: Updated CCD Mirroring HOWTO

Michael Quaintance
J.C. Roberts wrote:

>Please do not mistake me and my opinions for the opinions of the OpenBSD
>community in general. OpenBSD users and developers actually thrive on
>the conflict of differing opinions; a reasonably friendly competition to
>figure out and prove both what works and what works best.
>
[snip]

>I'm just a normal user who doesn't contribute a great deal to the
>project, so there is a *HUGE* difference between me and the people who
>actually have both the expertise and dedication needed to write quality
>code to improve the project. -To them, I'm just another loud mouth
>chatting away on misc@ rather than doing something more productive.
>
>Kind Regards,
>JCR
>  
>
Point taken. I did not mean to imply you are an official spokesperson
for the project. Merely that you successfully explained the hostility
that had arisen on this thread to what seemed an innocuous original
posting by Robbert.

If I understand the Open Source development model, whilst you may not be
productive in the code writing arena, people like yourself who are
prepared to take the time to explain to us newbies where we have gone
wrong are a necessary buffer in order to allow the developers to get on
with the job of developing the project.

Cheers

-Penfold

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Re: Updated CCD Mirroring HOWTO

Chris Zakelj
In reply to this post by J.C. Roberts-2
J.C. Roberts wrote:

>On Sat, 26 Nov 2005 17:00:39 +0000, Michael Quaintance
><[hidden email]> wrote:
>  
>
>>JCR,
>>
>>/Please/ don't loose your verbosity.
>>
>>For newbies like me, your lengthy descriptions of why the OpenBSD
>>community thinks like it does are incredibly useful. Short, pithy
>>explanations like Tony's are great for people who already understand but
>>those of us just starting on our quest can often find them as cryptic as
>>the proverbs of Buddha.
>>    
>>
>Michael,
>
>Please do not mistake me and my opinions for the opinions of the OpenBSD
>community in general. OpenBSD users and developers actually thrive on
>the conflict of differing opinions; a reasonably friendly competition to
>figure out and prove both what works and what works best.
>
>More importantly, do not mistake my opinions as being those of an
>OpenBSD DEVELOPER. Though some of them might agree with me, others will
>not. The OpenBSD developers have their own community and social group
>which is private, exclusive and based on what you do. Unless you have
>the dedication it takes to do a *LOT* for the project you'll never know
>what their community is like. I'm not a developer and not part of their
>internal community but I do know it exists.
>
>I'm just a normal user who doesn't contribute a great deal to the
>project, so there is a *HUGE* difference between me and the people who
>actually have both the expertise and dedication needed to write quality
>code to improve the project. -To them, I'm just another loud mouth
>chatting away on misc@ rather than doing something more productive.
>
>Kind Regards,
>JCR
>
I'm going to take this thread for what I think it is... the old guard
telling us youngin's that our efforts are appreciated, but we've got a
bit more to learn about how things work, and how to write good
documentation, before we're really ready to jump into these things the
way we have been lately.  I've noticed a decent drop in the number of
"How do I get PPPoE working" and "How do I get Apache+MySQL+PHP working"
questions on the list, which is what prompted Daniel to create
openbsdsupport in the first place, so in a way, we've been successful in
what we set out to do.  That said, it's about time I revisited the
userland PPPoE doc I wrote a while back one last time and mark it as
obsolete, especially in light of the amazing pace that Can has been
keeping on the kernel interface, and how user-friendly the pppoe(8)
manpage is.

Call me a masochist, but I sorta like being clobbered over the head by
Theo and his team.  I learn more about how to do things right that way
than I ever have by picking up a book or guessing at what a doc was
trying to tell me.

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Re: Updated CCD Mirroring HOWTO

J.C. Roberts-2
In reply to this post by Michael Quaintance
On Sat, 26 Nov 2005 19:25:16 +0000, Michael Quaintance
<[hidden email]> wrote:

>J.C. Roberts wrote:
>
>[snip]
>
>>I'm just a normal user who doesn't contribute a great deal to the
>>project, so there is a *HUGE* difference between me and the people who
>>actually have both the expertise and dedication needed to write quality
>>code to improve the project. -To them, I'm just another loud mouth
>>chatting away on misc@ rather than doing something more productive.
>>
>>Kind Regards,
>>JCR
>>  
>>
>Point taken. I did not mean to imply you are an official spokesperson
>for the project. Merely that you successfully explained the hostility
>that had arisen on this thread to what seemed an innocuous original
>posting by Robbert.
>

Unfortunately for Robbert, he is just the proverbial straw that broke
the camels' back. He is not the first person to think as he does and
he's not the first to produce horribly misguided "documentation" in the
form of "HOWTO" steps. Though I believe Robberts' intentions are truly
good, he is still trying to push his way of thinking and doing things.

After my post, I honestly expected Robbert to do the usual, namely fly
off the handle after reading something so directly critical. The fact
that he did not throw a tantrum shows he has a lot of character and is
willing to at least consider other points of view. That put the onus
upon me to provide other points of view for consideration.

As for hostility, check out the archives for the first five years of
this list. In those days, if you were not already a UNIX expert, you may
have been too intimidated to post anything, even a simple question. If
you posted incorrect directions for software usage or buggy code (same
thing), $DIETY couldn't save you from being tossed through a verbal meat
grinder.

>If I understand the Open Source development model, whilst you may not be
>productive in the code writing arena, people like yourself who are
>prepared to take the time to explain to us newbies where we have gone
>wrong are a necessary buffer in order to allow the developers to get on
>with the job of developing the project.
>

What may seem like a service to newbies and developers alike is not so
simple or straightforward. The list *IS* read by the developers and
reading the posts also takes their precious time. Each of the developers
and all of the long time users are quietly sitting on the sidelines
waiting for me to stuff my foot in my mouth, so they can unceremoniously
toss me in the meat grinder, on list or off. If you think it's bad for a
newbie, imagine what it is like for someone like me who's been around
for many years and damn well ought to know better.

As masochistic as it may seem, I both count on and appreciate when all
the others folks on the list spend their precious time to deliver a much
needed and well deserved swift kick in the pants when I've failed to
think things through properly on my own.

Although it is invisible to the new comer, exponentially more things
happen off list with OpenBSD than on list where everyone reads them.
There is a very good reason for it; excessive posts to this list,
particularly the exceedingly long ones like mine, are _also_ a waste of
developer time because they are read and checked for correctness like
everything else around here.

Kind Regards,
JCR

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Re: Updated CCD Mirroring HOWTO

J.C. Roberts-2
In reply to this post by Chris Zakelj
On Sat, 26 Nov 2005 16:54:04 -0500, Chris Zakelj <[hidden email]>
wrote:

>J.C. Roberts wrote:
>
<snip>

>>I'm just a normal user who doesn't contribute a great deal to the
>>project, so there is a *HUGE* difference between me and the people who
>>actually have both the expertise and dedication needed to write quality
>>code to improve the project. -To them, I'm just another loud mouth
>>chatting away on misc@ rather than doing something more productive.
>>
>>Kind Regards,
>>JCR
>>
>I'm going to take this thread for what I think it is... the old guard
>telling us youngin's that our efforts are appreciated, but we've got a
>bit more to learn about how things work, and how to write good
>documentation, before we're really ready to jump into these things the
>way we have been lately.  I've noticed a decent drop in the number of
>"How do I get PPPoE working" and "How do I get Apache+MySQL+PHP working"
>questions on the list, which is what prompted Daniel to create
>openbsdsupport in the first place, so in a way, we've been successful in
>what we set out to do.  

I may seem overly critical in debate but I still believe the work of
Daniel Ouellet and the HOWTO writers has been a worthwhile experiment.
Though it has opened the door for the blind leading blind, only by
experimenting with new ideas will one be able to prove or disprove their
validity and in the process, you might learn something unexpected.

Do you really think the UNIX companies of old "wasted" expensive
developer resources writing documentation? -Nope, the job was farmed off
to the new and inexperienced cheap labor which usually resulted in
worthlessly incorrect docs. Yes, in a sense you could say the "old
guard" have witnessed the results of this experiment before and watching
history repeat itself, brings back less than pleasant memories for those
who have already lived through it once.

>That said, it's about time I revisited the
>userland PPPoE doc I wrote a while back one last time and mark it as
>obsolete, especially in light of the amazing pace that Can has been
>keeping on the kernel interface, and how user-friendly the pppoe(8)
>manpage is.
>

As Otto wisely said:
|Man pages are the authorative documentation. If you find them lacking,
|help us in making them better.

It is possible your PPPoE HOWTO may have helped in some way to the
creation of more user-friendly documentation in pppoe(8). On the other
hand, if you had set out with the goal of making pppoe(8) more
user-friendly by working with others, the end result you wanted may have
been reached a lot sooner.

Look at UNIX history a bit. There are moments when I'm still just
floored by the fact I have a completely free UNIX operating system,
including source code and docs which I can use on whatever machines I
want for as long as I want. Try paying per minute for CPU time on a
multi-user system for a few years and you'd be floored too. Back in the
bad/good old days of commercial UNIX, the odds of a system developer
inviting you to work with them to produce better documentation was only
a dream even if you were a genius. The "youngin's" as you call them,
have an opportunities that the "old guard" never had.

Different people do things for different reasons and many people get
satisfaction from putting their name on the things they do. The recent
flurry of HOWTO's is really no different and at least some of the
authors revel in the "look-at-me" factor far more than they aspire to
produce correct documentation. You may not get to toss your name in
lights if you work with one of the knowledgable people who have given
you an open invitation to help improve the docs, but it is a decision
you'll need to make on your own and for your own reasons. If the
contributor is more important to you than the contribution, then you're
already sunk.

On the other hand, when a five year old child very sincerely says, "look
at me, I'm helping," while they are really just getting in the way, the
right thing to do is show a bit of patience rather than stomp on their
parade. Yet when said child is probably in his teens or twenties, well,
my tolerance fails in a hurry, in spite of all his supposedly sincere
and good intentions. I'll immediately start questioning his
intelligence, his knowledge, his experience and his motives. Maybe he
just needed to run a well known, age old, experiment for himself to
learn what can be learned from it. Then again, maybe not but either way,
time will tell.

>Call me a masochist, but I sorta like being clobbered over the head by
>Theo and his team.  I learn more about how to do things right that way
>than I ever have by picking up a book or guessing at what a doc was
>trying to tell me.
>

Funny, I was busy writing this same exact thing in another reply when
you posted this. ;-)

Kind Regards,
JCR

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Re: Updated CCD Mirroring HOWTO

frantisek holop
In reply to this post by Tony Aberenthy
hmm, on Sat, Nov 26, 2005 at 09:34:39AM -0600, [hidden email] said that
> Yes, OpenBSD is the _only_ operating system that takes security as
> seriously as it should be taken. Consider the why of OpenBSD's

this is a silly argument.
of course it is not the only system.  don't think nobody else
takes security seriously.  maybe you will be surprised, but
even companies like red hat take security seriously.  they
are just not that good at it.

but don't think openbsd invented security.

"Pride [goeth] before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall."

-f
--
electric chairs are period furniture: they end a sentence.

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Re: Updated CCD Mirroring HOWTO

frantisek holop
In reply to this post by Michael Quaintance
hmm, on Sat, Nov 26, 2005 at 05:00:39PM +0000, Michael Quaintance said that
> /Please/ don't loose your verbosity.
>
> For newbies like me, your lengthy descriptions of why the OpenBSD
> community thinks like it does are incredibly useful. Short, pithy

how can you believe one man's opinion to be the community's?
that's worse then not knowing about the community at all.

just listen on the mailing list for some time and think for yourself.

-f
--
to die late is better than never.

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Re: Updated CCD Mirroring HOWTO

Peter Hessler
In reply to this post by J.C. Roberts-2
Are you subscribed to newbies?  We don't do the bullshit like the
HOWTOs or openbsdsupport.org.  We teach you how to help yourself. The
answers come with learning, so you can be a better admin.



On Sat, 26 Nov 2005 00:30:21 -0800
"J.C. Roberts" <[hidden email]> wrote:

: Things like "HowTo" documents, sites like openbsdsupport.org and lists
: like openbsd-newbie@ are more often than not considered garbage. The
: reason is simply because you are robbing the reader of the fundamental
: and important details that the reader _NEEDS_ to learn. By providing
: short-cut documents to just get things working, you are sabotaging the
: learning process of the reader.

--
Distress, n.:
        A disease incurred by exposure to the prosperity of a friend.
                -- Ambrose Bierce, "The Devil's Dictionary"

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Re: Updated CCD Mirroring HOWTO

Daniel Ouellet
In reply to this post by J.C. Roberts-2
In all these:

>>I'm going to take this thread for what I think it is... the old guard
>>telling us youngin's that our efforts are appreciated, but we've got a
>>bit more to learn about how things work, and how to write good
>>documentation, before we're really ready to jump into these things the
>>way we have been lately.  I've noticed a decent drop in the number of
>>"How do I get PPPoE working" and "How do I get Apache+MySQL+PHP working"
>>questions on the list, which is what prompted Daniel to create
>>openbsdsupport in the first place, so in a way, we've been successful in
>>what we set out to do.  
>
>
> I may seem overly critical in debate but I still believe the work of
> Daniel Ouellet and the HOWTO writers has been a worthwhile experiment.
> Though it has opened the door for the blind leading blind, only by
> experimenting with new ideas will one be able to prove or disprove their
> validity and in the process, you might learn something unexpected.
>
or
quote "Are you subscribed to newbies?  We don't do the bullshit like the
HOWTOs or openbsdsupport.org.  We teach you how to help yourself. The
answers come with learning, so you can be a better admin."

There is many sad facts and true factors from both sides. Users have to
and should look for informations and the proper way of doing things.
Hopefully the fact that they decide to switch their OS to OpenBSD may
open the light a bit and may have become a bit more critical to security
anyway, so one would think they wouldn't jump on the first document they
find and just do cut and paste. But the fact of life is also that you
can be sure some will for sure just do that!

Other may read some documents and see something in it that haven't seen
before and pick their curiously to go look why that is and actually
improve their learning. Not the majority I agree!

So, nothing is perfect and never will be!

Is it better to provide some help to some users to get them started, or
does it hurt them for not forcing them to dig in vain to fine something
they would get easier. Will the results favor the laziness, or the
curiosity! I wish I knew that answer! Who are lazy, most likely will
stay that way. Some that are incline to change, may well see it as
useful and change, who are doing their homework will take it for what it
is, an other source of information and grab anything, or nothing they
see fit from it, and finally who ever know it all, will see it as a
waist and not look at it, why should they anyway! So, where you fit,
will dictate your point of view on the subject I guess.

Does it mean it shouldn't exists as a side track? I still don't know for
sure yet...

But, I think the best way might be to provide the informations in a cons
ice matter WITH reference (URL) to more details and ALWAYS warn the
users NOT to do simply cut and paste as this hurt them for sure, but to
seek the understanding of what is suggested in the documents. Not the
stage of things now of almost all side documents at this time and may
well be never either.

But who never start walking will never be running either!

So, it's like, providing knobs to a monkey and he will turn them, that's
why OpenBSD doesn't have knobs like many other OS, or very few knobs
anyway! Generic default is best, so how to provide more informations and
make it easier for users that are not use to do their research and help
them use a better system and at the same time try to trigger them to
learn it without aliening them! I wish I knew the solution for that!

But, I do believe this however, if a brain dead user switch from a less
secure OS ( take your pick of OS here ) and comes to OpenBSD for
security, documentations, curiosity, stability, what ever else, and stop
using the less secure OS, what ever that might be, and in the process
use what some would call "bullshit and stupid brain dead HOWTOs for
monkeys", and never learn more about it, and in the process, may even
hurt it's own setup and making it less secure in the process by using
the brain dead HOWTOs, wouldn't the system in the end still be more
secure then the same setup in any other OS? Don't forget the common
factor here. Brain dead setup to start with, so very likely to be miss
configure in the first place and joint many other less secure system on
the Internet and continue to pollute it.

I guess that's really the questions isn't it?

Sadly there will always be brain dead users that cut and paste without
thinking, or knowing, or even wanted to know or learn, what ever you
want to describe it, in the end the resulting system in use by the same
brain dead users is still more secure then an other system setup in the
same matter by the same brain dead users, so the facts remain that in a
small matter, the Internet at large become a bit safer for all of us!

Isn't it all what we wish it to be!?

With all aspect been equal and you can't change the world, or some brain
dead users, they will setup servers no matter what and infect the
Internet somehow with OpenBSD, or anything else, wouldn't you want at a
minimum an OpenBSD system there that have more chance to affect the
Internet at large less then the same brain dead system running an other
OS that will send you a bunch of spam, virus, be use for building attack
on your servers, routers, network, what ever, etc!?

I don't know about you, but I would still prefer that! Call it brain
dead security if you like. You can't force that users to return his/here
server to the store and not touch a computer ever for the benefit of
all! So, may as well try to give them something that is less likely to
be compromise, and affect everyone else, and in the process may be save
them from their own stupidity, no?

I don't know but with everything been equal, one still have to come to
peace with the facts and accept that there will always be users that
will never want to learn and that will always setup unsecured systems
that will affect all of us, like it or not! But if there is a way to
reduce the risk for everyone else, shouldn't this also be consider in
the picture of the may be stupid HOWTOs?

May be in the end, the useless HOWTOs just grant me the serenity to
accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I
can, and the wisdom to know the difference!

There is may be a place for some of them, hopefully they will become of
good quality over time and help to secure the Internet as little as it
might be, is still better then nothing at all!

Just my $0.02 worth in way to many words, sorry for that!

Daniel

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Re: Updated CCD Mirroring HOWTO

J.C. Roberts-2
In reply to this post by frantisek holop
On Sun, 27 Nov 2005 01:58:04 +0100, frantisek holop <[hidden email]>
wrote:

>hmm, on Sat, Nov 26, 2005 at 09:34:39AM -0600, [hidden email] said that
>> Yes, OpenBSD is the _only_ operating system that takes security as
>> seriously as it should be taken. Consider the why of OpenBSD's
>
>this is a silly argument.
>of course it is not the only system.  don't think nobody else
>takes security seriously.  maybe you will be surprised, but
>even companies like red hat take security seriously.  they
>are just not that good at it.
>
>but don't think openbsd invented security.
>
>"Pride [goeth] before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall."
>
>-f

Hi frantisek,

It seems you misread Tonys' post, glanced over a few important words and
lost the meaning; particularly these words:

>> as seriously as it should be taken.

Others may claim to take security seriously, and maybe they do in their
own way, but when the goal is not reached, then you can conclude they
have failed to take their goal seriously enough.

JCR

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Re: Updated CCD Mirroring HOWTO

Tony Aberenthy
In reply to this post by Daniel Ouellet
Daniel Ouellet wrote:

> In all these:
>
> >>I'm going to take this thread for what I think it is... the old guard
> >>telling us youngin's that our efforts are appreciated, but we've got a
> >>bit more to learn about how things work, and how to write good
> >>documentation, before we're really ready to jump into these things the
> >>way we have been lately.  I've noticed a decent drop in the number of
> >>"How do I get PPPoE working" and "How do I get Apache+MySQL+PHP working"
> >>questions on the list, which is what prompted Daniel to create
> >>openbsdsupport in the first place, so in a way, we've been successful in
> >>what we set out to do.
> >
> >
> > I may seem overly critical in debate but I still believe the work of
> > Daniel Ouellet and the HOWTO writers has been a worthwhile experiment.
> > Though it has opened the door for the blind leading blind, only by
> > experimenting with new ideas will one be able to prove or disprove their
> > validity and in the process, you might learn something unexpected.
> >
> or
> quote "Are you subscribed to newbies?  We don't do the bullshit like the
> HOWTOs or openbsdsupport.org.  We teach you how to help yourself. The
> answers come with learning, so you can be a better admin."
>
> There is many sad facts and true factors from both sides. Users have to
> and should look for informations and the proper way of doing things.
> Hopefully the fact that they decide to switch their OS to OpenBSD may
> open the light a bit and may have become a bit more critical to security
> anyway, so one would think they wouldn't jump on the first document they
> find and just do cut and paste. But the fact of life is also that you
> can be sure some will for sure just do that!
>
> Other may read some documents and see something in it that haven't seen
> before and pick their curiously to go look why that is and actually
> improve their learning. Not the majority I agree!
>
> So, nothing is perfect and never will be!
>
> Is it better to provide some help to some users to get them started, or
> does it hurt them for not forcing them to dig in vain to fine something
> they would get easier. Will the results favor the laziness, or the
> curiosity! I wish I knew that answer! Who are lazy, most likely will
> stay that way. Some that are incline to change, may well see it as
> useful and change, who are doing their homework will take it for what it
> is, an other source of information and grab anything, or nothing they
> see fit from it, and finally who ever know it all, will see it as a
> waist and not look at it, why should they anyway! So, where you fit,
> will dictate your point of view on the subject I guess.
>
> Does it mean it shouldn't exists as a side track? I still don't know for
> sure yet...
>
> But, I think the best way might be to provide the informations in a cons
> ice matter WITH reference (URL) to more details and ALWAYS warn the
> users NOT to do simply cut and paste as this hurt them for sure, but to
> seek the understanding of what is suggested in the documents. Not the
> stage of things now of almost all side documents at this time and may
> well be never either.
>
> But who never start walking will never be running either!
>
> So, it's like, providing knobs to a monkey and he will turn them, that's
> why OpenBSD doesn't have knobs like many other OS, or very few knobs
> anyway! Generic default is best, so how to provide more informations and
> make it easier for users that are not use to do their research and help
> them use a better system and at the same time try to trigger them to
> learn it without aliening them! I wish I knew the solution for that!
>
> But, I do believe this however, if a brain dead user switch from a less
> secure OS ( take your pick of OS here ) and comes to OpenBSD for
> security, documentations, curiosity, stability, what ever else, and stop
> using the less secure OS, what ever that might be, and in the process
> use what some would call "bullshit and stupid brain dead HOWTOs for
> monkeys", and never learn more about it, and in the process, may even
> hurt it's own setup and making it less secure in the process by using
> the brain dead HOWTOs, wouldn't the system in the end still be more
> secure then the same setup in any other OS? Don't forget the common
> factor here. Brain dead setup to start with, so very likely to be miss
> configure in the first place and joint many other less secure system on
> the Internet and continue to pollute it.
>
> I guess that's really the questions isn't it?
>
> Sadly there will always be brain dead users that cut and paste without
> thinking, or knowing, or even wanted to know or learn, what ever you
> want to describe it, in the end the resulting system in use by the same
> brain dead users is still more secure then an other system setup in the
> same matter by the same brain dead users, so the facts remain that in a
> small matter, the Internet at large become a bit safer for all of us!
>
> Isn't it all what we wish it to be!?
>
> With all aspect been equal and you can't change the world, or some brain
> dead users, they will setup servers no matter what and infect the
> Internet somehow with OpenBSD, or anything else, wouldn't you want at a
> minimum an OpenBSD system there that have more chance to affect the
> Internet at large less then the same brain dead system running an other
> OS that will send you a bunch of spam, virus, be use for building attack
> on your servers, routers, network, what ever, etc!?
>
> I don't know about you, but I would still prefer that! Call it brain
> dead security if you like. You can't force that users to return his/here
> server to the store and not touch a computer ever for the benefit of
> all! So, may as well try to give them something that is less likely to
> be compromise, and affect everyone else, and in the process may be save
> them from their own stupidity, no?
>
> I don't know but with everything been equal, one still have to come to
> peace with the facts and accept that there will always be users that
> will never want to learn and that will always setup unsecured systems
> that will affect all of us, like it or not! But if there is a way to
> reduce the risk for everyone else, shouldn't this also be consider in
> the picture of the may be stupid HOWTOs?
>
> May be in the end, the useless HOWTOs just grant me the serenity to
> accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I
> can, and the wisdom to know the difference!
>
> There is may be a place for some of them, hopefully they will become of
> good quality over time and help to secure the Internet as little as it
> might be, is still better then nothing at all!
>
> Just my $0.02 worth in way to many words, sorry for that!
>
> Daniel

In no way do I speak for OpenBSD user or developers or whatever, but some
things are pretty obvious.

OpenBSD claims to be done for the benefit of its developers and every
indication that I've seen says that they mean exactly what they say.
Concerns of users are secondary at best.
What the developers have is their own operating system, where everything
is under their control and done according to their priorities.
They are the only ones on the planet who have such.
They will not give up that control to any outsiders.
Can't say I blame 'em.
Part of the effect is that OpenBSD has a degree of clout much larger
than its user base would suggest.
Seriously, if it doesn't run OpenBSD, there's probably something
fundamentally wrong with it. (Not really fair, but it is effective;)

In order to benefit from OpenBSD, starting with something that used to be
OpenBSD, and then doing Windows on top of that, doesn't really work.
Further, I suspect that any such tends to give OpenBSD a bad name.

Setting up an excellent and elaborate security system and then disposing
of old computers with hard drives intact, ...
Everything you don't know  --- matters.

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