Unified BSD?

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Unified BSD?

Robin  Björklin
Hi!

First and foremost I'd like to present myself, I'm a young and naive junior
sys admin that think people should be able to compromise and see the bigger
picture and the good of the cause.

Now over to the reason for my post.

As all of you probably know there's a lot of buzz around Gnu/Linux these
days and I'm pretty sure you couldn't care less. What I'm wondering is why
the BSD community which from what I can gather isn't as big as the Linux
community have decided to split their resources into several different
projects/forks/distributions. To me it seems *BSD would be in a more
competitive shape if all developers would get in under one roof?

Am I bat crap crazy for thinking it could be good to merge the four largest
BSD variants out there, take the best bits and pieces out of each and
create a Unified BSD?

Kind Regards,
Robin Bjorklin

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RE: Unified BSD?

Justin Mayes
Yes, your bat crap crazy :-)

All of these variants inherit from the same unified BSD 4.4 base code as far
as I know. So years ago  there were reasons that groups wanted to spilt off
and focus on specific goals. Some of these goals are mutually exclusive.
These BSD variants are not really competing with each other or Linux for
that matter.


Justin Mayes 


-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of
Robin Björklin
Sent: Monday, November 12, 2012 2:38 PM
To: [hidden email]; [hidden email];
[hidden email]; [hidden email]
Subject: Unified BSD?

Hi!

First and foremost I'd like to present myself, I'm a young and naive junior
sys admin that think people should be able to compromise and see the bigger
picture and the good of the cause.

Now over to the reason for my post.

As all of you probably know there's a lot of buzz around Gnu/Linux these
days and I'm pretty sure you couldn't care less. What I'm wondering is why
the BSD community which from what I can gather isn't as big as the Linux
community have decided to split their resources into several different
projects/forks/distributions. To me it seems *BSD would be in a more
competitive shape if all developers would get in under one roof?

Am I bat crap crazy for thinking it could be good to merge the four largest
BSD variants out there, take the best bits and pieces out of each and create
a Unified BSD?

Kind Regards,
Robin Bjorklin

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Re: Unified BSD?

Ville Valkonen
In reply to this post by Robin Björklin
On 12 November 2012 22:37, Robin  Björklin <[hidden email]> wrote:
> As all of you probably know there's a lot of buzz around Gnu/Linux these
> days and I'm pretty sure you couldn't care less. What I'm wondering is why
> the BSD community which from what I can gather isn't as big as the Linux
> community have decided to split their resources into several different
> projects/forks/distributions. To me it seems *BSD would be in a more
> competitive shape if all developers would get in under one roof?

Different BSDs have different interests. Also, "competitive shape" is
ambiguous (competitive in speed?, portability?, security?, market
share?).

> Am I bat crap crazy for thinking it could be good to merge the four largest
> BSD variants out there, take the best bits and pieces out of each and
> create a Unified BSD?

Doesn't that apply for Linux too?
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Re: Unified BSD?

Nick Holland
In reply to this post by Robin Björklin
On 11/12/12 15:37, Robin  Björklin wrote:
> Hi!
>
> First and foremost I'd like to present myself, I'm a young and naive junior
> sys admin that think people should be able to compromise and see the bigger
> picture and the good of the cause.

"compromise".  That is almost always an evil word.

In school in the United States, they taught us the "glories" of the art
of compromise, and told us about the "wonderful compromises of our
founding fathers" (mothers need not apply).  If you look at them, with
one major exception, which I would call a "nifty win-win solution"
rather than a "compromise", most of them devalued people or kicked
decisions down the road, clearly bad solutions that the wrong were glad
to get and the right were willing to live with.

By the logic of my teachers, if you wished to shoot me four times and I
didn't wish to be shot at all, a good compromise would be to shoot me
twice.  How could either of us object?  I have two fewer holes, you got
to do some of what you wanted to do. yay.

And of course, a compromised computer is a bad thing.

You can accuse me of linguistic games, but I don't think the uses of
"compromise" are as different as people like to pretend.

Realistically, OpenBSD refuses to "compromise" on things it thinks are
important.  The small number of OpenBSD users like that; in fact, that's
the reason we use OpenBSD.  The lack of compromise results in high
resistance to compromise.  WE like it that way.

> Now over to the reason for my post.
>
> As all of you probably know there's a lot of buzz around Gnu/Linux these
> days and I'm pretty sure you couldn't care less.

bingo.

>  What I'm wondering is why
> the BSD community which from what I can gather isn't as big as the Linux
> community have decided to split their resources into several different
> projects/forks/distributions. To me it seems *BSD would be in a more
> competitive shape if all developers would get in under one roof?

That is an opinion.  It may be right.

As someone who has watched the Unix world since the 1980s, I disagree.
It's been diverse for decades; in fact, it's been diverse since it
escaped from the first computers it was developed on.  That's been both
a strength and a weakness of Unix.  Lots of attempts to unify it have
been made in the past, all failed.  All involved committees and
"compromise".

And back to what you said earlier...yes, we couldn't care less.  I
suspect a number of OpenBSD developers would probably freak out if next
year we were the #1 (or #3) OS in popularity...it would be a sign we are
probably doing something terribly wrong.

> Am I bat crap crazy for thinking it could be good to merge the four largest
> BSD variants out there, take the best bits and pieces out of each and
> create a Unified BSD?

I wholeheartedly support your right to give it a shot and see what
happens.  Maybe you can break the Winux mindset.  The BSD license begs
you to take your dream and run with it.  I hope you succeed, but only on
my terms, of course. :)

Your theory has been thought of many times before:
  http://xkcd.com/927/
(and many people reading this list know exactly what cartoon that is
BEFORE clicking on it!)

And realistically, that's to be expected.  Why are there solutions A and
B?  Because some people prefer A, some prefer B.  Try to make a
"compromise" solution C, you will have people who STILL prefer A, others
that STILL prefer B, and a few that think the compromise version is good.

OpenBSD's goal has never been to be The Biggest or Most Successful.
Just The Best, by the definition we chose.  We don't see "the good of
the cause" to compromise being the best (by our terms) for being the
"biggest", or "bigger".

Personally, I think there are bigger issues that the computer world
needs to address, very high on my list is the level of craptastic design
and implementation people tolerate and even encourage in the computer
world.  Why are your credit cards splattered all over the 'net?  Well, I
can say with confidence, compromise was involved -- between good design
and an arbitrary deadline, between good design and pretty pictures,
between good design by a skilled (and expensive) programmer and the
$5/day that a programmer in Elbonia charged.

Nick.

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Re: Unified BSD?

pete wright-2
In reply to this post by Robin Björklin
On Mon, Nov 12, 2012 at 12:37 PM, Robin  Björklin
<[hidden email]> wrote:

>
>
> Am I bat crap crazy for thinking it could be good to merge the four largest
> BSD variants out there, take the best bits and pieces out of each and
> create a Unified BSD?
>

you are not crazy for thinking this, and fortunately there is nothing
prohibiting you from doing so (or a collective group of people, or
company etc...).  One thing you will see in the BSD Unix systems is
there is quite a bit of cross pollination between projects.  The
largest example current example of this from my perspective is support
for OpenBSD's "pf" packet filter in FreeBSD.  This is a packet filter
built to suit the OpenBSD developers goals, but it did not restrict
FreeBSD from supporting this packet filter and hopefully both projects
benefit from this collaboration (wider code exposure of the pf code,
and wider choice of packet filters for FreeBSD users).

My opinion is that with the current state of the BSD's this is one of
its stronger suits - we have multiple projects right now building
entire operating systems to suit each of the projects stated goals and
developer wishes.  this would be opposed to gnu/linux where you are
cobbling together many disparate sources to build your distribution
(some of which will have goals that may not line up with your goals).
with this diversity we still cross pollinate ideas and methods, but
are still allowed to spend our limited resources focusing on our
projects core goals.

-pete

--
pete wright
www.nycbug.org
@nomadlogicLA
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Re: Unified BSD?

Tony Maserati
In reply to this post by Robin Björklin
On Mon, Nov 12, 2012 at 9:37 PM, Robin Björklin
<[hidden email]>wrote:

>
> Am I bat crap crazy for thinking it could be good to merge the four largest
> BSD variants out there, take the best bits and pieces out of each and
> create a Unified BSD?
>

Ain't that what OpenBSD is though - the best from all worlds?

Tony
http://soundcloud.com/abletony84

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Re: Unified BSD?

Anders N.
In reply to this post by Robin Björklin
If there's to be any hope of a rational discussion, we need to remember to CC each list as the OP did.

On Mon, Nov 12, 2012, Tony <[hidden email]> wrote:
>Ain't that what OpenBSD is though - the best from all worlds?

Especially with comments like these..
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Re: Unified BSD?

Eric Furman-3
In reply to this post by Robin Björklin
This is the funniest thing I've seen all day. :)

On Mon, Nov 12, 2012, at 03:37 PM, Robin  Björklin wrote:

> Hi!
>
> First and foremost I'd like to present myself, I'm a young and naive
> junior
> sys admin that think people should be able to compromise and see the
> bigger
> picture and the good of the cause.
>
> Now over to the reason for my post.
>
> As all of you probably know there's a lot of buzz around Gnu/Linux these
> days and I'm pretty sure you couldn't care less. What I'm wondering is
> why
> the BSD community which from what I can gather isn't as big as the Linux
> community have decided to split their resources into several different
> projects/forks/distributions. To me it seems *BSD would be in a more
> competitive shape if all developers would get in under one roof?
>
> Am I bat crap crazy for thinking it could be good to merge the four
> largest
> BSD variants out there, take the best bits and pieces out of each and
> create a Unified BSD?
>
> Kind Regards,
> Robin Bjorklin
>
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Re: Unified BSD?

Brett Glass
In reply to this post by Robin Björklin
You seem to be laboring under the misapprehension that the Linux
world is unified. It isn't.

The big difference between Linux and the BSDs is that it alienates
itself from the BSDs and many other projects by using a viral,
business-hostile license. The BSDs can draw on one another's work
because there are no licensing barriers between them.

--Brett Glass

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Re: Unified BSD?

Greg 'groggy' Lehey-3
In reply to this post by Robin Björklin
On Monday, 12 November 2012 at 21:37:41 +0100, Robin  Björklin wrote:

> First and foremost I'd like to present myself, I'm a young and naive
> junior sys admin that think people should be able to compromise and
> see the bigger picture and the good of the cause.

It shows :-)

> As all of you probably know there's a lot of buzz around Gnu/Linux
> these days and I'm pretty sure you couldn't care less. What I'm
> wondering is why the BSD community which from what I can gather
> isn't as big as the Linux community have decided to split their
> resources into several different projects/forks/distributions. To me
> it seems *BSD would be in a more competitive shape if all developers
> would get in under one roof?

There's 20 years of history to explain that.  Where should I begin?
Should I begin?

- The initial split was between Bill Jolitz and the rest of the world.
  This was partially personality driven, partially goal driven.  Bill
  soon faded out, leaving just the NetBSD project.

- Next came the split between NetBSD and FreeBSD.  That was mainly
  goal driven, but there was also a fair amount of personality
  involved.

- Then came the Unix wars, where AT&T sued BSDI (a commercial variant
  that no longer exists) over perceived copyright infringement.  The
  free BSDs weren't really directly involved, but the suit would have
  been just as relevant, and people were worried.

  This was the time that Linux was in the ascendancy.  Users had the
  choice of a free GPL system or one which might land them in
  trouble.  Most chose the safe option.

- Then OpenBSD split from NetBSD.  Mainly personality driven AFAICT.
  This doesn't imply any criticism of the founder of the new project.

  Round about this time I wrote a paper on the subject, which I
  presented in various conferences.  You can find numerous versions at
  http://www.lemis.com/grog/Papers/, including "Why BSD is better than
  Linux", presented at the Linux.conf.au in Brisbane.

- Then DragonflyBSD split from FreeBSD.  Mainly personality driven
  AFAICT.  Again, this doesn't imply any criticism of the founder of
  the new project.

And that's where we are.  We have 4 different BSD kernels which
regularly borrow from each other.  Some projects, such as PCBSD, take
these kernels and package them differently.

Looking across the fence, I see that there is no distribution of Linux
with a completely standard kernel (I think), and lots of different
distributions with significantly different interfaces.  On the whole,
I'd say that BSD is more uniform than Linux.

> Am I bat crap crazy for thinking it could be good to merge the four
> largest BSD variants out there, take the best bits and pieces out of
> each and create a Unified BSD?

Maybe not, but there are many reasons it won't happen.  One is the
structure of the individual projects, and another is that the current
system works well.  If you only have one kernel, you don't have people
implementing different solutions for a problem, so you don't find out
which is better.

Greg
--
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Re: Unified BSD?

Johan Beisser
On Mon, Nov 12, 2012 at 5:14 PM, Greg 'groggy' Lehey <[hidden email]> wrote:

> - Then DragonflyBSD split from FreeBSD.  Mainly personality driven
>   AFAICT.  Again, this doesn't imply any criticism of the founder of
>   the new project.

There were some very valid technical reasons at the time as well, IMHO.
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Re: Unified BSD?

Martin-371
In reply to this post by Justin Mayes
The reason was actually intellectual property based between AT&T and the
proprietary BSD/386 if your talking BSD4.4. That was the core reason for
why FreeBSD and NetBSD started.
So really it isn't that crazy, more highly unlikely that your going to get
the core developers of each project to abandon years of work to start again
on a unified BSD.

It is a cool thought, one i have thought about.

Which is why i reckon your far more likely to get support for a new BSD
system that takes the foundation of one of the existing BSD's and create a
project that aims for compatibility between the major BSD players.

At least then its not like restarting.

On Tue, Nov 13, 2012 at 8:36 AM, Justin Mayes <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Yes, your bat crap crazy :-)
>
> All of these variants inherit from the same unified BSD 4.4 base code as
> far
> as I know. So years ago  there were reasons that groups wanted to spilt off
> and focus on specific goals. Some of these goals are mutually exclusive.
> These BSD variants are not really competing with each other or Linux for
> that matter.
>
>
> Justin Mayes
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of
> Robin Björklin
> Sent: Monday, November 12, 2012 2:38 PM
> To: [hidden email]; [hidden email];
> [hidden email]; [hidden email]
> Subject: Unified BSD?
>
> Hi!
>
> First and foremost I'd like to present myself, I'm a young and naive junior
> sys admin that think people should be able to compromise and see the bigger
> picture and the good of the cause.
>
> Now over to the reason for my post.
>
> As all of you probably know there's a lot of buzz around Gnu/Linux these
> days and I'm pretty sure you couldn't care less. What I'm wondering is why
> the BSD community which from what I can gather isn't as big as the Linux
> community have decided to split their resources into several different
> projects/forks/distributions. To me it seems *BSD would be in a more
> competitive shape if all developers would get in under one roof?
>
> Am I bat crap crazy for thinking it could be good to merge the four largest
> BSD variants out there, take the best bits and pieces out of each and
> create
> a Unified BSD?
>
> Kind Regards,
> Robin Bjorklin
>
>
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Re: Unified BSD?

Julian H. Stacey-3
In reply to this post by Greg 'groggy' Lehey-3
> - Then came the Unix wars, where AT&T sued BSDI (a commercial variant
>   that no longer exists) over perceived copyright infringement.  The
>   free BSDs weren't really directly involved, but the suit would have
>   been just as relevant, and people were worried.
>
>   This was the time that Linux was in the ascendancy.  Users had the
>   choice of a free GPL system or one which might land them in
>   trouble.  Most chose the safe option.

I know the view from Germany as to why Linux was taken up so readily,
most people read about it later, & repeat relayed wisdom, but I was
here & know:

        (& BTW though I'm British but in Germany, Germany is far
        more signifcant in this regard than eg UK of GB, eg Linux mag.
        has 3 times the circulation in Germany as UK, & whenever
        I'm in UK I never see Linux mags in book shops etc (& of
        course no BSD) just MS, whereas here in Munich there's some
        choice of Linux mags, even in food supermarket (Tengelmann)
        I recall.

Most newbies were clueless or didnt give a toss about FSF v BSD
licensing then (or now), or some firm called AT&T across the pond
breathing hot air.  (Only us BSD people cared, not many of us).

Old Unix hands like me were earning good money fully employed doing
consultancy, (plenty of work then). Although I thought I maybe
should help spread BSD, & considered knocking out batches of 30/40+
floppies per mail order, it was Very unattractive, labour intensive
formatting, dd'ing, checking for media errors, at a very low pay
rate compare with mich higher paid & more interesting consultancy.

Plus also if one did that under German tax law (I checked with my
Steuer Berater = accountant I recall) it would be subject to Gewerbe
Steuer, & not just for the trivial amount earned on floppies shipped,
but could imperil imposing the extra tax on the Whole of consultancy
income, Very Expensive mistake to risk that. So I didn't & others
didnt; most other consultant friends here were also happy earning
at commercial rates, & didn't want to touch floppy reproduction.

BUT ... meanwhile there was a whole new load of students on low or
no income, & no tax issues to worry about, & young student mode
enthusiasm & time to evangalise their new free software ... Linux
... so one saw adverts for stack of floppies in eg CT Magazine
(http://www.heise.de/ct/ & others.

& then CDs came on the scene, even easier for the students to push
out & again I wondered whether I should push out some BSD CDs, &
again colleagues were too busy to reduce their consultancy
income by doing grunt disk jockey work producing & mailing CDROMs
at cheap prices. & Again I was scared of German Gewerbe Steuer ...

So I decided to just do software bundling (safe consultancy work)
& let a commercial firm do manufacture, bulk distrib, German language
correspondence, & German gewerbe Steuer issues etc - Ughh)

So I mastered a combination Live + Install FreeBSD CDROM years
before freebsd.org did theirs, & approached german Linux Mag & Heise
(I think) & (English language, German based) BSD Mag (whatever, the
one from Rosa Riebl) to see if anyone would bundle it stuck to front
page of magazines (to really shift a lot & have BSD make a big
impact in the OS scene.

I didnt get anywhere with that, but I got further with Dr Dobbs USA
mag, & negotiations were going OK, then they decided it would be
too expensive to glue a CD on each cover, & they just wanted to
feature my CD in their library of CDs for sale ... at which point
I lost interest cos:
        - It would fail to impact the market if not sent in bulk 1 per mag.
                (I'd have accepted very low payment for that, as it
                would have helped push BSD significantly)
        - If not on Mag. cover & just in library for sale per individual order,
          I was scared of low sales, & not worth the bother to polish the
          master & maintain it maybe through new releases for low income.

Actually, I still see a market opportunity for someone:
  For BSD (or Linux) shipped on memory sticks.  But I wont touch
  that, especially not in Germany with this tax system, & having
  to deal with thousands of customers at low profit per unit, plus
  a lot of german correspondence (German grammar not nice IMO) ...
  but its still a market BSD or Linux students could exploit (if
  not already ... I havent read CT mag & ads. lately to know if it's
  being done).

Cheers,
Julian
--
Julian Stacey, BSD Unix Linux C Sys Eng Consultant, Munich http://berklix.com
 Reply below not above, like a play script.  Indent old text with "> ".
 Send plain text. Not: HTML, multipart/alternative, base64, quoted-printable.
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Re: Unified BSD?

Mike.
In reply to this post by Nick Holland
On 11/12/2012 at 5:20 PM Nick Holland wrote:

|On 11/12/12 15:37, Robin  Björklin wrote:
|
| [snip]
}
|"compromise".  That is almost always an evil word.
|
| [snip]
|
 =============

Agreement abounds.

"Compromise" takes two good ideas and results in a mediocre idea that
is in the average of those two good ideas.

Many like a compromised idea, because the idea is exactly that -
compromised.



If your goal is to please as many people as possible, then compromise
is the way to go.

If your goal is to produce outstanding software then, well, you're
gonna have to piss off a few people.

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Re: Unified BSD?

Joost van de Griek-3
In reply to this post by Robin Björklin
On 12 Nov 2012, at 21:37 , Robin  Björklin <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Am I bat crap crazy for thinking it could be good to merge the four largest BSD variants out there, take the best bits and pieces out of each and create a Unified BSD?


You'd end up creating a fifth.

.tsooJ
--
The first testicular guard, the cup, was used in hockey in 1874; the first helmet was used in 1974. That means it only took 100 years for men to realize that their brain is also important.
--
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<http://www.jvdg.net/>

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Re: Unified BSD?

Wayne Oliver
In reply to this post by Mike.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On 2012/11/13 7:14 AM, Mike. wrote:
> If your goal is to please as many people as possible, then
> compromise is the way to go.
>
> If your goal is to produce outstanding software then, well, you're
> gonna have to piss off a few people.

Could not agree more!

- --
Wayn0
Comment: GPGTools - http://gpgtools.org

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Re: Unified BSD?

Ignatios Souvatzis-2
In reply to this post by Joost van de Griek-3
On Tue, Nov 13, 2012 at 10:08:08AM +0100, Joost van de Griek wrote:
> On 12 Nov 2012, at 21:37 , Robin  Björklin <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > Am I bat crap crazy for thinking it could be good to merge the four largest BSD variants out there, take the best bits and pieces out of each and create a Unified BSD?
>
>
> You'd end up creating a fifth.

At least a sixth, IIRC. You left out MirBSD from your distribution list.
Also, you could argue that Minix, with its NetBSD compatibility,
is a seventh and MacOS-X, with its partially (Free-/Net-)BSD compatible
userland, an eighth.

        -is
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Re: Unified BSD?

Joar Jegleim-3
In reply to this post by Robin Björklin
I just can't resist the urge to point to this comic strip, which an
other FreeBSD users posted regarding : "hey let's create a FreeBSD
desktop, like Ubuntu did with Unity"
http://xkcd.com/927/

--
----------------------
Joar Jegleim
Homepage: http://cosmicb.no
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AKA: CosmicB @Freenode

----------------------

On 12 November 2012 21:37, Robin  Björklin <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi!
>
> First and foremost I'd like to present myself, I'm a young and naive junior
> sys admin that think people should be able to compromise and see the bigger
> picture and the good of the cause.
>
> Now over to the reason for my post.
>
> As all of you probably know there's a lot of buzz around Gnu/Linux these
> days and I'm pretty sure you couldn't care less. What I'm wondering is why
> the BSD community which from what I can gather isn't as big as the Linux
> community have decided to split their resources into several different
> projects/forks/distributions. To me it seems *BSD would be in a more
> competitive shape if all developers would get in under one roof?
>
> Am I bat crap crazy for thinking it could be good to merge the four largest
> BSD variants out there, take the best bits and pieces out of each and
> create a Unified BSD?
>
> Kind Regards,
> Robin Bjorklin
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Re: Unified BSD?

Lars Engels-2
In reply to this post by Ignatios Souvatzis-2
On Tue, Nov 13, 2012 at 11:45:11AM +0100, Ignatios Souvatzis wrote:

> On Tue, Nov 13, 2012 at 10:08:08AM +0100, Joost van de Griek wrote:
> > On 12 Nov 2012, at 21:37 , Robin  Björklin <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > > Am I bat crap crazy for thinking it could be good to merge the four largest BSD variants out there, take the best bits and pieces out of each and create a Unified BSD?
> >
> >
> > You'd end up creating a fifth.
>
> At least a sixth, IIRC. You left out MirBSD from your distribution list.
> Also, you could argue that Minix, with its NetBSD compatibility,
> is a seventh and MacOS-X, with its partially (Free-/Net-)BSD compatible
> userland, an eighth.
>
MirBSD / MirOS is dead:

http://www.freshbsd.org/search?project=mirbsd

Last commit:  2011-08-29 23:00:00

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Re: Unified BSD?

Ignatios Souvatzis-2
On Tue, Nov 13, 2012 at 01:04:27PM +0100, Lars Engels wrote:

> MirBSD / MirOS is dead:
>
> http://www.freshbsd.org/search?project=mirbsd
>
> Last commit:  2011-08-29 23:00:00

I'm no Mir* co-worker, so take this with a grain of salt. But on
general principles:

a) I question the date itself - that's the last commit to whatever
freshbsd.org watches, not necessarily the last thing the developers
did.

(In fact, I've heard from Thorsten at FrosCon that he does definitely
not consider his project abandoned.)

b) Besides - I question the notion of "unchanging" == "dead". In
fact, as somebody who *uses* software, and who administeres computers
for others who want to *use* the software, I consider changing
software - e.g. the fortnightly changes of Firefox-Current's user
interface - a nuisance. (That's why Mozilla has their "extended
support release", currently 10.0.9.) People want to use software for
some work, not spend half of their time rewriting configuration
files or relearn key bidings or menu entry positions.

(Now, nobody being there who looks at bug reports etc... thats
something different. But you only see changes through this activity
if there really *are* bugs.)

        -is
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