Sync calendars.judaic with reality

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Sync calendars.judaic with reality

Brian Callahan-3
Hi tech --

Reminded by the recent email to tech@ about calendar.christian, I
took a look at syncing calendar.judaic.

This diff does the following:
1. Sync the holiday days that are not connected to Pesach, which on
our calendar is Chanukah, Fast of 10 Tevet, and Yom Yerushalayim.
2. Add the holidays that are explicitly mentioned on the Wikipedia
page of Jewish holidays, which adds Tu B'Shevat to our calendar.
3. Replace the year marker on Rosh Hashana with the current Jewish
year (5741 => 5779). This calendar has to be updated yearly as it
is anyway, so it seems odd to me not to put the current year if
we're going to list a year in connection with Rosh Hashanah.

It looks like mickey@ removed Yom HaAtzmaut some years ago due to
the understanding that this be a religious and not secular
calendar. Which is a perfectly legitimate stance, as there is no
universal yes or no as to whether or not the Israeli rememberance
holidays are religious holidays, both in Israel and in the dispora.

So we either need to remove Yom Yerushalayim for the same reason,
or add back Yom HaAtzmaut, and add Yom HaShoah and Yom Hazikaron.
Doesn't matter to me either way. It might be nice to include Yom
HaShoah in either event, as it is likely to become a universal
Jewish religious holiday within our lifetimes. Whatever is decided
having Yom Yerushalayim by itself is the strangest of all worlds.

And I'll volunteer to keep this calendar synced since I might be
the only one who cares about it.

OK?

~Brian

Index: calendar.judaic
===================================================================
RCS file: /cvs/src/usr.bin/calendar/calendars/calendar.judaic,v
retrieving revision 1.5
diff -u -p -r1.5 calendar.judaic
--- calendar.judaic 6 Sep 2005 23:42:59 -0000 1.5
+++ calendar.judaic 12 Nov 2018 00:11:04 -0000
@@ -7,7 +7,7 @@
 #ifndef _calendar_judaic_
 #define _calendar_judaic_
 
-Pesach+163 First Day of Rosh Hashanah (Jewish Lunar New Year; 5741 == 1980;
+Pesach+163 First Day of Rosh Hashanah (Jewish Lunar New Year; 5779 == 2018;
  sabbatical)
 Pesach+164 Rosh Hashanah (sabbatical)
 Pesach+166 Fast of Gedalya (Murder of Gedalya and subsequent Exile; fast day)
@@ -17,8 +17,9 @@ Pesach+179 Succot (sabbatical)
 Pesach+184 Hoshanah Rabba (7th day of Succos)
 Pesach+185 Shmini Atzeres (8th Day of Gathering; sabbatical)
 Pesach+186 Shmini Atzeres/Simchas Torah (Rejoicing of the Law; sabbatical)
-12/12* First Day of Chanukah
-12/27* Fast of Asara B'Tevet (Babylonians put siege on Jerusalem; fast day)
+12/03* First Day of Chanukah
+12/18* Fast of Asara B'Tevet (Babylonians put siege on Jerusalem; fast day)
+01/20* Tu B'Shevat (New Year of the Trees)
 Pesach-31 Fast of Esther (Battle of Purim; fast day)
 Pesach-30 Purim (Feast of Lots)
 Pesach-29 Purim (Feast of Lots)
@@ -27,10 +28,10 @@ Pesach+1 Pesach (sabbatical)
 Pesach+6 Pesach (sabbatical)
 Pesach+7 Pesach (Last Day of Passover; 8th day of Pesach; sabbatical)
 Pesach+34 Lag Ba`omer (Commemoration of the Great Rebellion)
-05/22* Yom Yerushalayim (Reunification of Jerusalem)
+06/01* Yom Yerushalayim (Reunification of Jerusalem)
 Pesach+50 Shavuot (Festival of Weeks; sabbatical)
 Pesach+51 Shavuot (Festival of Weeks; sabbatical)
-07/10* Fast of Shiv'a Asar B'Tammuz (Romans breach Wall of Jerusalem; fast day)
+07/21* Fast of Shiv'a Asar B'Tammuz (Romans breach Wall of Jerusalem; fast day)
 Pesach+81 Fast of Tish'a B'Av (Babylon destroys Holy Temple; fast day)
 
 #endif /* !_calendar_judaic_ */

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Re: Sync calendars.judaic with reality

Jason McIntyre-2
On Sun, Nov 11, 2018 at 07:36:55PM -0500, Brian Callahan wrote:

> Hi tech --
>
> Reminded by the recent email to tech@ about calendar.christian, I
> took a look at syncing calendar.judaic.
>
> This diff does the following:
> 1. Sync the holiday days that are not connected to Pesach, which on
> our calendar is Chanukah, Fast of 10 Tevet, and Yom Yerushalayim.
> 2. Add the holidays that are explicitly mentioned on the Wikipedia
> page of Jewish holidays, which adds Tu B'Shevat to our calendar.
> 3. Replace the year marker on Rosh Hashana with the current Jewish
> year (5741 => 5779). This calendar has to be updated yearly as it
> is anyway, so it seems odd to me not to put the current year if
> we're going to list a year in connection with Rosh Hashanah.
>
> It looks like mickey@ removed Yom HaAtzmaut some years ago due to
> the understanding that this be a religious and not secular
> calendar. Which is a perfectly legitimate stance, as there is no
> universal yes or no as to whether or not the Israeli rememberance
> holidays are religious holidays, both in Israel and in the dispora.
>
> So we either need to remove Yom Yerushalayim for the same reason,
> or add back Yom HaAtzmaut, and add Yom HaShoah and Yom Hazikaron.
> Doesn't matter to me either way. It might be nice to include Yom
> HaShoah in either event, as it is likely to become a universal
> Jewish religious holiday within our lifetimes. Whatever is decided
> having Yom Yerushalayim by itself is the strangest of all worlds.
>
> And I'll volunteer to keep this calendar synced since I might be
> the only one who cares about it.
>
> OK?
>
> ~Brian
>

morning.

if you're willing to do the work, i say go for it. i don;t have enough
knowledge about dates/holidays to provide any useful feedback.

if you have any opinion on the .christian diff, please do reply. i'm
about to as well, but again i just don;t have the knowledge to deal with this.

jmc

> Index: calendar.judaic
> ===================================================================
> RCS file: /cvs/src/usr.bin/calendar/calendars/calendar.judaic,v
> retrieving revision 1.5
> diff -u -p -r1.5 calendar.judaic
> --- calendar.judaic 6 Sep 2005 23:42:59 -0000 1.5
> +++ calendar.judaic 12 Nov 2018 00:11:04 -0000
> @@ -7,7 +7,7 @@
>  #ifndef _calendar_judaic_
>  #define _calendar_judaic_
>  
> -Pesach+163 First Day of Rosh Hashanah (Jewish Lunar New Year; 5741 == 1980;
> +Pesach+163 First Day of Rosh Hashanah (Jewish Lunar New Year; 5779 == 2018;
>   sabbatical)
>  Pesach+164 Rosh Hashanah (sabbatical)
>  Pesach+166 Fast of Gedalya (Murder of Gedalya and subsequent Exile; fast day)
> @@ -17,8 +17,9 @@ Pesach+179 Succot (sabbatical)
>  Pesach+184 Hoshanah Rabba (7th day of Succos)
>  Pesach+185 Shmini Atzeres (8th Day of Gathering; sabbatical)
>  Pesach+186 Shmini Atzeres/Simchas Torah (Rejoicing of the Law; sabbatical)
> -12/12* First Day of Chanukah
> -12/27* Fast of Asara B'Tevet (Babylonians put siege on Jerusalem; fast day)
> +12/03* First Day of Chanukah
> +12/18* Fast of Asara B'Tevet (Babylonians put siege on Jerusalem; fast day)
> +01/20* Tu B'Shevat (New Year of the Trees)
>  Pesach-31 Fast of Esther (Battle of Purim; fast day)
>  Pesach-30 Purim (Feast of Lots)
>  Pesach-29 Purim (Feast of Lots)
> @@ -27,10 +28,10 @@ Pesach+1 Pesach (sabbatical)
>  Pesach+6 Pesach (sabbatical)
>  Pesach+7 Pesach (Last Day of Passover; 8th day of Pesach; sabbatical)
>  Pesach+34 Lag Ba`omer (Commemoration of the Great Rebellion)
> -05/22* Yom Yerushalayim (Reunification of Jerusalem)
> +06/01* Yom Yerushalayim (Reunification of Jerusalem)
>  Pesach+50 Shavuot (Festival of Weeks; sabbatical)
>  Pesach+51 Shavuot (Festival of Weeks; sabbatical)
> -07/10* Fast of Shiv'a Asar B'Tammuz (Romans breach Wall of Jerusalem; fast day)
> +07/21* Fast of Shiv'a Asar B'Tammuz (Romans breach Wall of Jerusalem; fast day)
>  Pesach+81 Fast of Tish'a B'Av (Babylon destroys Holy Temple; fast day)
>  
>  #endif /* !_calendar_judaic_ */
>

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Re: Sync calendars.judaic with reality

John Long-4
On Mon, 2018-11-12 at 06:57 +0000, Jason McIntyre wrote:

> On Sun, Nov 11, 2018 at 07:36:55PM -0500, Brian Callahan wrote:
> > Hi tech --
> >
> > Reminded by the recent email to tech@ about calendar.christian, I
> > took a look at syncing calendar.judaic.
> >
> > This diff does the following:
> > 1. Sync the holiday days that are not connected to Pesach, which
> > on
> > our calendar is Chanukah, Fast of 10 Tevet, and Yom Yerushalayim.

I am not sure what this means. All of the Jewish holidays move on the
civil calendar year to year. However, since every time the calendar
includes an additional month (a second Adar) the month is inserted
before Pesach; therefore the holidays which fall after that time do
not move *relative to Pesach* but they do move on the civil calendar.

> > 2. Add the holidays that are explicitly mentioned on the Wikipedia
> > page of Jewish holidays, which adds Tu B'Shevat to our calendar.
> > 3. Replace the year marker on Rosh Hashana with the current Jewish
> > year (5741 => 5779). This calendar has to be updated yearly as it
> > is anyway, so it seems odd to me not to put the current year if
> > we're going to list a year in connection with Rosh Hashanah.
> >
> > It looks like mickey@ removed Yom HaAtzmaut some years ago due to
> > the understanding that this be a religious and not secular
> > calendar. Which is a perfectly legitimate stance, as there is no
> > universal yes or no as to whether or not the Israeli rememberance
> > holidays are religious holidays, both in Israel and in the
> > dispora.

There is. Yom Hatzmaut, Yom HaShoah, Yom Hazikaron, Yom Yerushalayim
are all Israeli (civil) holidays not connected to the Jewish religion.

> > So we either need to remove Yom Yerushalayim for the same reason,
> > or add back Yom HaAtzmaut, and add Yom HaShoah and Yom Hazikaron.
> > Doesn't matter to me either way. It might be nice to include Yom
> > HaShoah in either event, as it is likely to become a universal
> > Jewish religious holiday within our lifetimes.

That is absolutely not true. No major religious authority has ever
recognized any of the Israeli civil holidays.

> >  Whatever is decided
> > having Yom Yerushalayim by itself is the strangest of all worlds.
> >
> > And I'll volunteer to keep this calendar synced since I might be
> > the only one who cares about it.
> >
> > OK?
> >
> > ~Brian
> >
>
> morning.
>
> if you're willing to do the work, i say go for it. i don;t have
> enough
> knowledge about dates/holidays to provide any useful feedback.
>
> if you have any opinion on the .christian diff, please do reply. i'm
> about to as well, but again i just don;t have the knowledge to deal
> with this.

I can help with this. Contact me offline with any questions.

In the diff below I see some conflicts in terms of transliteration.
There are two main communities of Jews and the transliterations below
do not align with either one in all cases.

/jl


>
> jmc
>
> > Index: calendar.judaic
> > ==================================================================
> > =
> > RCS file: /cvs/src/usr.bin/calendar/calendars/calendar.judaic,v
> > retrieving revision 1.5
> > diff -u -p -r1.5 calendar.judaic
> > --- calendar.judaic 6 Sep 2005 23:42:59 -0000 1.5
> > +++ calendar.judaic 12 Nov 2018 00:11:04 -0000
> > @@ -7,7 +7,7 @@
> >  #ifndef _calendar_judaic_
> >  #define _calendar_judaic_
> >  
> > -Pesach+163 First Day of Rosh Hashanah (Jewish Lunar New Year;
> > 5741 == 1980;
> > +Pesach+163 First Day of Rosh Hashanah (Jewish Lunar New Year;
> > 5779 == 2018;
> >   sabbatical)
> >  Pesach+164 Rosh Hashanah (sabbatical)
> >  Pesach+166 Fast of Gedalya (Murder of Gedalya and subsequent
> > Exile; fast day)
> > @@ -17,8 +17,9 @@ Pesach+179 Succot (sabbatical)
> >  Pesach+184 Hoshanah Rabba (7th day of Succos)
> >  Pesach+185 Shmini Atzeres (8th Day of Gathering; sabbatical)
> >  Pesach+186 Shmini Atzeres/Simchas Torah (Rejoicing of the Law;
> > sabbatical)
> > -12/12* First Day of Chanukah
> > -12/27* Fast of Asara B'Tevet (Babylonians put siege on
> > Jerusalem; fast day)
> > +12/03* First Day of Chanukah
> > +12/18* Fast of Asara B'Tevet (Babylonians put siege on
> > Jerusalem; fast day)
> > +01/20* Tu B'Shevat (New Year of the Trees)
> >  Pesach-31 Fast of Esther (Battle of Purim; fast day)
> >  Pesach-30 Purim (Feast of Lots)
> >  Pesach-29 Purim (Feast of Lots)
> > @@ -27,10 +28,10 @@ Pesach+1 Pesach (sabbatical)
> >  Pesach+6 Pesach (sabbatical)
> >  Pesach+7 Pesach (Last Day of Passover; 8th day of Pesach;
> > sabbatical)
> >  Pesach+34 Lag Ba`omer (Commemoration of the Great Rebellion)
> > -05/22* Yom Yerushalayim (Reunification of Jerusalem)
> > +06/01* Yom Yerushalayim (Reunification of Jerusalem)
> >  Pesach+50 Shavuot (Festival of Weeks; sabbatical)
> >  Pesach+51 Shavuot (Festival of Weeks; sabbatical)
> > -07/10* Fast of Shiv'a Asar B'Tammuz (Romans breach Wall of
> > Jerusalem; fast day)
> > +07/21* Fast of Shiv'a Asar B'Tammuz (Romans breach Wall of
> > Jerusalem; fast day)
> >  Pesach+81 Fast of Tish'a B'Av (Babylon destroys Holy Temple;
> > fast day)
> >  
> >  #endif /* !_calendar_judaic_ */
> >
>
>

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Re: Sync calendars.judaic with reality

Brian Callahan-3


On 11/12/18 11:20 AM, John Long wrote:

> On Mon, 2018-11-12 at 06:57 +0000, Jason McIntyre wrote:
>> On Sun, Nov 11, 2018 at 07:36:55PM -0500, Brian Callahan wrote:
>>> Hi tech --
>>>
>>> Reminded by the recent email to tech@ about calendar.christian, I
>>> took a look at syncing calendar.judaic.
>>>
>>> This diff does the following:
>>> 1. Sync the holiday days that are not connected to Pesach, which
>>> on
>>> our calendar is Chanukah, Fast of 10 Tevet, and Yom Yerushalayim.
> I am not sure what this means. All of the Jewish holidays move on the
> civil calendar year to year. However, since every time the calendar
> includes an additional month (a second Adar) the month is inserted
> before Pesach; therefore the holidays which fall after that time do
> not move *relative to Pesach* but they do move on the civil calendar.

What are you talking about? This is in reference to the code in
calendar(1) that sets the dates for the Judaic calendar. If you think
there's something wrong there, I await your patch to
usr.bin/calendar/pesach.c

Yes, I know how the Hebrew calendar works. mickey@'s calculation is
actually quite nice IMO.

>>> 2. Add the holidays that are explicitly mentioned on the Wikipedia
>>> page of Jewish holidays, which adds Tu B'Shevat to our calendar.
>>> 3. Replace the year marker on Rosh Hashana with the current Jewish
>>> year (5741 => 5779). This calendar has to be updated yearly as it
>>> is anyway, so it seems odd to me not to put the current year if
>>> we're going to list a year in connection with Rosh Hashanah.
>>>
>>> It looks like mickey@ removed Yom HaAtzmaut some years ago due to
>>> the understanding that this be a religious and not secular
>>> calendar. Which is a perfectly legitimate stance, as there is no
>>> universal yes or no as to whether or not the Israeli rememberance
>>> holidays are religious holidays, both in Israel and in the
>>> dispora.
> There is. Yom Hatzmaut, Yom HaShoah, Yom Hazikaron, Yom Yerushalayim
> are all Israeli (civil) holidays not connected to the Jewish religion.
>

Reform Judaism and Conservative Judaism (in the US, at least) both treat
Yom HaShoah as a religious holiday, with both crafting prayers
specifically for the holiday and with Conservative Judaism writing a new
liturgy for the day.

This is considered so "common knowledge" that Wikipedia has a whole
section on it:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yom_HaShoah#Religious_observances_and_liturgy

Additionally, there is no reason that calendar.judaic cannot be both a
religious and secular calendar. mickey@ clearly had reasons for
preferring to it to be religious only but I can't go ask him his
reasoning for it. So my question is whether or not people prefer one
over the other. I slightly prefer it to be both religious and secular
but I care more about the dates being maintained so am willing to go
either way.

>>> So we either need to remove Yom Yerushalayim for the same reason,
>>> or add back Yom HaAtzmaut, and add Yom HaShoah and Yom Hazikaron.
>>> Doesn't matter to me either way. It might be nice to include Yom
>>> HaShoah in either event, as it is likely to become a universal
>>> Jewish religious holiday within our lifetimes.
> That is absolutely not true. No major religious authority has ever
> recognized any of the Israeli civil holidays.
>

This again is so not true that Wikipedia has a section on it:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yom_HaShoah#Religious_observances_and_liturgy

But again, we can make the calendar religious and secular.

You may disagree with the Reform and Conservative movement, but both are
major religious authorities and normative Judaism.

>>>   Whatever is decided
>>> having Yom Yerushalayim by itself is the strangest of all worlds.
>>>
>>> And I'll volunteer to keep this calendar synced since I might be
>>> the only one who cares about it.
>>>
>>> OK?
>>>
>>> ~Brian
>>>
>> morning.
>>
>> if you're willing to do the work, i say go for it. i don;t have
>> enough
>> knowledge about dates/holidays to provide any useful feedback.
>>
>> if you have any opinion on the .christian diff, please do reply. i'm
>> about to as well, but again i just don;t have the knowledge to deal
>> with this.
> I can help with this. Contact me offline with any questions.
>
> In the diff below I see some conflicts in terms of transliteration.
> There are two main communities of Jews and the transliterations below
> do not align with either one in all cases.

Honestly, the transliterations are fine. I'll write them all in Yiddish
though if you have concerns.

~Brian

> /jl
>
>
>> jmc
>>
>>> Index: calendar.judaic
>>> ==================================================================
>>> =
>>> RCS file: /cvs/src/usr.bin/calendar/calendars/calendar.judaic,v
>>> retrieving revision 1.5
>>> diff -u -p -r1.5 calendar.judaic
>>> --- calendar.judaic 6 Sep 2005 23:42:59 -0000 1.5
>>> +++ calendar.judaic 12 Nov 2018 00:11:04 -0000
>>> @@ -7,7 +7,7 @@
>>>   #ifndef _calendar_judaic_
>>>   #define _calendar_judaic_
>>>  
>>> -Pesach+163 First Day of Rosh Hashanah (Jewish Lunar New Year;
>>> 5741 == 1980;
>>> +Pesach+163 First Day of Rosh Hashanah (Jewish Lunar New Year;
>>> 5779 == 2018;
>>>   sabbatical)
>>>   Pesach+164 Rosh Hashanah (sabbatical)
>>>   Pesach+166 Fast of Gedalya (Murder of Gedalya and subsequent
>>> Exile; fast day)
>>> @@ -17,8 +17,9 @@ Pesach+179 Succot (sabbatical)
>>>   Pesach+184 Hoshanah Rabba (7th day of Succos)
>>>   Pesach+185 Shmini Atzeres (8th Day of Gathering; sabbatical)
>>>   Pesach+186 Shmini Atzeres/Simchas Torah (Rejoicing of the Law;
>>> sabbatical)
>>> -12/12* First Day of Chanukah
>>> -12/27* Fast of Asara B'Tevet (Babylonians put siege on
>>> Jerusalem; fast day)
>>> +12/03* First Day of Chanukah
>>> +12/18* Fast of Asara B'Tevet (Babylonians put siege on
>>> Jerusalem; fast day)
>>> +01/20* Tu B'Shevat (New Year of the Trees)
>>>   Pesach-31 Fast of Esther (Battle of Purim; fast day)
>>>   Pesach-30 Purim (Feast of Lots)
>>>   Pesach-29 Purim (Feast of Lots)
>>> @@ -27,10 +28,10 @@ Pesach+1 Pesach (sabbatical)
>>>   Pesach+6 Pesach (sabbatical)
>>>   Pesach+7 Pesach (Last Day of Passover; 8th day of Pesach;
>>> sabbatical)
>>>   Pesach+34 Lag Ba`omer (Commemoration of the Great Rebellion)
>>> -05/22* Yom Yerushalayim (Reunification of Jerusalem)
>>> +06/01* Yom Yerushalayim (Reunification of Jerusalem)
>>>   Pesach+50 Shavuot (Festival of Weeks; sabbatical)
>>>   Pesach+51 Shavuot (Festival of Weeks; sabbatical)
>>> -07/10* Fast of Shiv'a Asar B'Tammuz (Romans breach Wall of
>>> Jerusalem; fast day)
>>> +07/21* Fast of Shiv'a Asar B'Tammuz (Romans breach Wall of
>>> Jerusalem; fast day)
>>>   Pesach+81 Fast of Tish'a B'Av (Babylon destroys Holy Temple;
>>> fast day)
>>>  
>>>   #endif /* !_calendar_judaic_ */
>>>
>>

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Re: Sync calendars.judaic with reality

John Long-4
On Mon, 2018-11-12 at 12:38 -0500, Brian Callahan wrote:

>
> On 11/12/18 11:20 AM, John Long wrote:
> > On Mon, 2018-11-12 at 06:57 +0000, Jason McIntyre wrote:
> > > On Sun, Nov 11, 2018 at 07:36:55PM -0500, Brian Callahan wrote:
> > > > Hi tech --
> > > >
> > > > Reminded by the recent email to tech@ about
> > > > calendar.christian, I
> > > > took a look at syncing calendar.judaic.
> > > >
> > > > This diff does the following:
> > > > 1. Sync the holiday days that are not connected to Pesach,
> > > > which
> > > > on
> > > > our calendar is Chanukah, Fast of 10 Tevet, and Yom
> > > > Yerushalayim.
> >
> > I am not sure what this means. All of the Jewish holidays move on
> > the
> > civil calendar year to year. However, since every time the
> > calendar
> > includes an additional month (a second Adar) the month is inserted
> > before Pesach; therefore the holidays which fall after that time
> > do
> > not move *relative to Pesach* but they do move on the civil
> > calendar.
>
> What are you talking about? This is in reference to the code in
> calendar(1) that sets the dates for the Judaic calendar. If you
> think
> there's something wrong there, I await your patch to
> usr.bin/calendar/pesach.c
>

I haven't seen the code. I responded to the comment that "days are not
connected to Pesach." All Jewish holidays are connected to Pesach, it
is one of the points from which years are calculated. And my statement
above and the explanation how it works is correct as I wrote it.

So what are you talking about? Exactly what did I write that you are
disputing here?


> Yes, I know how the Hebrew calendar works. mickey@'s calculation is
> actually quite nice IMO.
> > > > 2. Add the holidays that are explicitly mentioned on the
> > > > Wikipedia
> > > > page of Jewish holidays, which adds Tu B'Shevat to our
> > > > calendar.
> > > > 3. Replace the year marker on Rosh Hashana with the current
> > > > Jewish
> > > > year (5741 => 5779). This calendar has to be updated yearly as
> > > > it
> > > > is anyway, so it seems odd to me not to put the current year
> > > > if
> > > > we're going to list a year in connection with Rosh Hashanah.
> > > >
> > > > It looks like mickey@ removed Yom HaAtzmaut some years ago due
> > > > to
> > > > the understanding that this be a religious and not secular
> > > > calendar. Which is a perfectly legitimate stance, as there is
> > > > no
> > > > universal yes or no as to whether or not the Israeli
> > > > rememberance
> > > > holidays are religious holidays, both in Israel and in the
> > > > dispora.
> >
> > There is. Yom Hatzmaut, Yom HaShoah, Yom Hazikaron, Yom
> > Yerushalayim
> > are all Israeli (civil) holidays not connected to the Jewish
> > religion.
> >
>
> Reform Judaism and Conservative Judaism (in the US, at least) both
> treat
> Yom HaShoah as a religious holiday, with both crafting prayers
> specifically for the holiday and with Conservative Judaism writing a
> new
> liturgy for the day.

If the calendar we are talking about is supposed to be representative
of mainstream Jewish belief and practice which has remained the same
for the past 3,500 years then those demominations will need their own
calendars.

>
> This is considered so "common knowledge" that Wikipedia has a whole
> section on it:
>
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yom_HaShoah#Religious_observances_and_liturgy

This is no proof of anything except activism which isn't
representative of the Jewish religion.

>
> Additionally, there is no reason that calendar.judaic cannot be both
> a
> religious and secular calendar. mickey@ clearly had reasons for
> preferring to it to be religious only but I can't go ask him his
> reasoning for it. So my question is whether or not people prefer
> one
> over the other. I slightly prefer it to be both religious and
> secular
> but I care more about the dates being maintained so am willing to
> go
> either way.

I have no preference either, since I don't use it, rather I use
calendars from reliable sources and I have also written my own which
aligns with those. Again, I was responding to what Jason wrote.

Regardless, some of the holidays mentioned are Jewish, some are
Israeli. There is no overlap.

>
> > > > So we either need to remove Yom Yerushalayim for the same
> > > > reason,
> > > > or add back Yom HaAtzmaut, and add Yom HaShoah and Yom
> > > > Hazikaron.
> > > > Doesn't matter to me either way. It might be nice to include
> > > > Yom
> > > > HaShoah in either event, as it is likely to become a universal
> > > > Jewish religious holiday within our lifetimes.
> >
> > That is absolutely not true. No major religious authority has ever
> > recognized any of the Israeli civil holidays.
> >
>
> This again is so not true that Wikipedia has a section on it:
>
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yom_HaShoah#Religious_observances_and_liturgy

There is no major religious authority that has recognized any Israeli
holidays. And all the nonsense you find online or elsewhere doesn't
change 3,500 years of Jewish legal practice and thought. We simply
don't observe the Israeli innovations (in Israel) and they have no
meaning whatsoever to Jews.

>
> But again, we can make the calendar religious and secular.

Right but then the name Judaic is no longer applicable.

>
> You may disagree with the Reform and Conservative movement, but both
> are
> major religious authorities and normative Judaism.

No, that's where you're absolutely mistaken. Those movements have left
mainstream Jewish practice and belief and they are now separate
religions only loosely based on authentic Judaism.

Even the Israeli government rejects conversions and marriages peformed
by those groups. That says a lot... nobody can claim they are
practicing Judaism, not even a State with an agenda.

>
> > > >   Whatever is decided
> > > > having Yom Yerushalayim by itself is the strangest of all
> > > > worlds.
> > > >
> > > > And I'll volunteer to keep this calendar synced since I might
> > > > be
> > > > the only one who cares about it.
> > > >
> > > > OK?
> > > >
> > > > ~Brian
> > > >
> > >
> > > morning.
> > >
> > > if you're willing to do the work, i say go for it. i don;t have
> > > enough
> > > knowledge about dates/holidays to provide any useful feedback.
> > >
> > > if you have any opinion on the .christian diff, please do reply.
> > > i'm
> > > about to as well, but again i just don;t have the knowledge to
> > > deal
> > > with this.
> >
> > I can help with this. Contact me offline with any questions.
> >
> > In the diff below I see some conflicts in terms of
> > transliteration.
> > There are two main communities of Jews and the transliterations
> > below
> > do not align with either one in all cases.
>
> Honestly, the transliterations are fine. I'll write them all in
> Yiddish
> though if you have concerns.

That doesn't make any sense. The Yiddish words for these months are
the same as Biblical Hebrew and all Jews write them in the same way.


>
> ~Brian

The transliterations are not fine.

 Pesach+185 Shmini Atzeres


is according to Ashkenazic tradition

while

+12/18* Fast of Asara B'Tevet


is according to Sephardic tradition

and others were not even transliterated such as

Pesach-31 Fast of Esther

So there are inconsistencies that should probably be resolved.



>
> > /jl
> >
> >
> > > jmc
> > >
> > > > Index: calendar.judaic
> > > > ==============================================================
> > > > ====
> > > > =
> > > > RCS file:
> > > > /cvs/src/usr.bin/calendar/calendars/calendar.judaic,v
> > > > retrieving revision 1.5
> > > > diff -u -p -r1.5 calendar.judaic
> > > > --- calendar.judaic 6 Sep 2005 23:42:59 -0000 1.5
> > > > +++ calendar.judaic 12 Nov 2018 00:11:04 -0000
> > > > @@ -7,7 +7,7 @@
> > > >   #ifndef _calendar_judaic_
> > > >   #define _calendar_judaic_
> > > >  
> > > > -Pesach+163 First Day of Rosh Hashanah (Jewish Lunar New
> > > > Year;
> > > > 5741 == 1980;
> > > > +Pesach+163 First Day of Rosh Hashanah (Jewish Lunar New
> > > > Year;
> > > > 5779 == 2018;
> > > >   sabbatical)
> > > >   Pesach+164 Rosh Hashanah (sabbatical)
> > > >   Pesach+166 Fast of Gedalya (Murder of Gedalya and
> > > > subsequent
> > > > Exile; fast day)
> > > > @@ -17,8 +17,9 @@ Pesach+179 Succot (sabbatical)
> > > >   Pesach+184 Hoshanah Rabba (7th day of Succos)
> > > >   Pesach+185 Shmini Atzeres (8th Day of Gathering;
> > > > sabbatical)
> > > >   Pesach+186 Shmini Atzeres/Simchas Torah (Rejoicing of the
> > > > Law;
> > > > sabbatical)
> > > > -12/12* First Day of Chanukah
> > > > -12/27* Fast of Asara B'Tevet (Babylonians put siege on
> > > > Jerusalem; fast day)
> > > > +12/03* First Day of Chanukah
> > > > +12/18* Fast of Asara B'Tevet (Babylonians put siege on
> > > > Jerusalem; fast day)
> > > > +01/20* Tu B'Shevat (New Year of the Trees)
> > > >   Pesach-31 Fast of Esther (Battle of Purim; fast day)
> > > >   Pesach-30 Purim (Feast of Lots)
> > > >   Pesach-29 Purim (Feast of Lots)
> > > > @@ -27,10 +28,10 @@ Pesach+1 Pesach (sabbatical)
> > > >   Pesach+6 Pesach (sabbatical)
> > > >   Pesach+7 Pesach (Last Day of Passover; 8th day of
> > > > Pesach;
> > > > sabbatical)
> > > >   Pesach+34 Lag Ba`omer (Commemoration of the Great
> > > > Rebellion)
> > > > -05/22* Yom Yerushalayim (Reunification of Jerusalem)
> > > > +06/01* Yom Yerushalayim (Reunification of Jerusalem)
> > > >   Pesach+50 Shavuot (Festival of Weeks; sabbatical)
> > > >   Pesach+51 Shavuot (Festival of Weeks; sabbatical)
> > > > -07/10* Fast of Shiv'a Asar B'Tammuz (Romans breach Wall of
> > > > Jerusalem; fast day)
> > > > +07/21* Fast of Shiv'a Asar B'Tammuz (Romans breach Wall of
> > > > Jerusalem; fast day)
> > > >   Pesach+81 Fast of Tish'a B'Av (Babylon destroys Holy
> > > > Temple;
> > > > fast day)
> > > >  
> > > >   #endif /* !_calendar_judaic_ */
> > > >
>
>

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Re: Sync calendars.judaic with reality

Brian Callahan-3


On 11/12/18 1:13 PM, John Long wrote:

> On Mon, 2018-11-12 at 12:38 -0500, Brian Callahan wrote:
>> On 11/12/18 11:20 AM, John Long wrote:
>>> On Mon, 2018-11-12 at 06:57 +0000, Jason McIntyre wrote:
>>>> On Sun, Nov 11, 2018 at 07:36:55PM -0500, Brian Callahan wrote:
>>>>> Hi tech --
>>>>>
>>>>> Reminded by the recent email to tech@ about
>>>>> calendar.christian, I
>>>>> took a look at syncing calendar.judaic.
>>>>>
>>>>> This diff does the following:
>>>>> 1. Sync the holiday days that are not connected to Pesach,
>>>>> which
>>>>> on
>>>>> our calendar is Chanukah, Fast of 10 Tevet, and Yom
>>>>> Yerushalayim.
>>> I am not sure what this means. All of the Jewish holidays move on
>>> the
>>> civil calendar year to year. However, since every time the
>>> calendar
>>> includes an additional month (a second Adar) the month is inserted
>>> before Pesach; therefore the holidays which fall after that time
>>> do
>>> not move *relative to Pesach* but they do move on the civil
>>> calendar.
>> What are you talking about? This is in reference to the code in
>> calendar(1) that sets the dates for the Judaic calendar. If you
>> think
>> there's something wrong there, I await your patch to
>> usr.bin/calendar/pesach.c
>>
> I haven't seen the code. I responded to the comment that "days are not
> connected to Pesach." All Jewish holidays are connected to Pesach, it
> is one of the points from which years are calculated. And my statement
> above and the explanation how it works is correct as I wrote it.
>
> So what are you talking about? Exactly what did I write that you are
> disputing here?

If you haven't read pesach.c or the calendar.judaic code, then you can't
be helped because it is obvious from a quick glance at the code that
some of the dates on calendar.judaic are listed as Westernized dates
(aka the ones my diff changes) and others are dates in the form of
Pesach+/-n. I'll be moving forward with the oks I have and without your
opinion on everything else below because you can go be a shanda
somewhere else and not on this list, as this list is no place for your
nonsense diatribe as to what counts as Judaism or not.

~Brian

>
>> Yes, I know how the Hebrew calendar works. mickey@'s calculation is
>> actually quite nice IMO.
>>>>> 2. Add the holidays that are explicitly mentioned on the
>>>>> Wikipedia
>>>>> page of Jewish holidays, which adds Tu B'Shevat to our
>>>>> calendar.
>>>>> 3. Replace the year marker on Rosh Hashana with the current
>>>>> Jewish
>>>>> year (5741 => 5779). This calendar has to be updated yearly as
>>>>> it
>>>>> is anyway, so it seems odd to me not to put the current year
>>>>> if
>>>>> we're going to list a year in connection with Rosh Hashanah.
>>>>>
>>>>> It looks like mickey@ removed Yom HaAtzmaut some years ago due
>>>>> to
>>>>> the understanding that this be a religious and not secular
>>>>> calendar. Which is a perfectly legitimate stance, as there is
>>>>> no
>>>>> universal yes or no as to whether or not the Israeli
>>>>> rememberance
>>>>> holidays are religious holidays, both in Israel and in the
>>>>> dispora.
>>> There is. Yom Hatzmaut, Yom HaShoah, Yom Hazikaron, Yom
>>> Yerushalayim
>>> are all Israeli (civil) holidays not connected to the Jewish
>>> religion.
>>>
>> Reform Judaism and Conservative Judaism (in the US, at least) both
>> treat
>> Yom HaShoah as a religious holiday, with both crafting prayers
>> specifically for the holiday and with Conservative Judaism writing a
>> new
>> liturgy for the day.
> If the calendar we are talking about is supposed to be representative
> of mainstream Jewish belief and practice which has remained the same
> for the past 3,500 years then those demominations will need their own
> calendars.
>
>> This is considered so "common knowledge" that Wikipedia has a whole
>> section on it:
>>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yom_HaShoah#Religious_observances_and_liturgy
>
> This is no proof of anything except activism which isn't
> representative of the Jewish religion.
>
>> Additionally, there is no reason that calendar.judaic cannot be both
>> a
>> religious and secular calendar. mickey@ clearly had reasons for
>> preferring to it to be religious only but I can't go ask him his
>> reasoning for it. So my question is whether or not people prefer
>> one
>> over the other. I slightly prefer it to be both religious and
>> secular
>> but I care more about the dates being maintained so am willing to
>> go
>> either way.
> I have no preference either, since I don't use it, rather I use
> calendars from reliable sources and I have also written my own which
> aligns with those. Again, I was responding to what Jason wrote.
>
> Regardless, some of the holidays mentioned are Jewish, some are
> Israeli. There is no overlap.
>
>>>>> So we either need to remove Yom Yerushalayim for the same
>>>>> reason,
>>>>> or add back Yom HaAtzmaut, and add Yom HaShoah and Yom
>>>>> Hazikaron.
>>>>> Doesn't matter to me either way. It might be nice to include
>>>>> Yom
>>>>> HaShoah in either event, as it is likely to become a universal
>>>>> Jewish religious holiday within our lifetimes.
>>> That is absolutely not true. No major religious authority has ever
>>> recognized any of the Israeli civil holidays.
>>>
>> This again is so not true that Wikipedia has a section on it:
>>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yom_HaShoah#Religious_observances_and_liturgy
>
> There is no major religious authority that has recognized any Israeli
> holidays. And all the nonsense you find online or elsewhere doesn't
> change 3,500 years of Jewish legal practice and thought. We simply
> don't observe the Israeli innovations (in Israel) and they have no
> meaning whatsoever to Jews.
>
>> But again, we can make the calendar religious and secular.
> Right but then the name Judaic is no longer applicable.
>
>> You may disagree with the Reform and Conservative movement, but both
>> are
>> major religious authorities and normative Judaism.
> No, that's where you're absolutely mistaken. Those movements have left
> mainstream Jewish practice and belief and they are now separate
> religions only loosely based on authentic Judaism.
>
> Even the Israeli government rejects conversions and marriages peformed
> by those groups. That says a lot... nobody can claim they are
> practicing Judaism, not even a State with an agenda.
>
>>>>>    Whatever is decided
>>>>> having Yom Yerushalayim by itself is the strangest of all
>>>>> worlds.
>>>>>
>>>>> And I'll volunteer to keep this calendar synced since I might
>>>>> be
>>>>> the only one who cares about it.
>>>>>
>>>>> OK?
>>>>>
>>>>> ~Brian
>>>>>
>>>> morning.
>>>>
>>>> if you're willing to do the work, i say go for it. i don;t have
>>>> enough
>>>> knowledge about dates/holidays to provide any useful feedback.
>>>>
>>>> if you have any opinion on the .christian diff, please do reply.
>>>> i'm
>>>> about to as well, but again i just don;t have the knowledge to
>>>> deal
>>>> with this.
>>> I can help with this. Contact me offline with any questions.
>>>
>>> In the diff below I see some conflicts in terms of
>>> transliteration.
>>> There are two main communities of Jews and the transliterations
>>> below
>>> do not align with either one in all cases.
>> Honestly, the transliterations are fine. I'll write them all in
>> Yiddish
>> though if you have concerns.
> That doesn't make any sense. The Yiddish words for these months are
> the same as Biblical Hebrew and all Jews write them in the same way.
>
>
>> ~Brian
> The transliterations are not fine.
>
>   Pesach+185 Shmini Atzeres
>
>
> is according to Ashkenazic tradition
>
> while
>
> +12/18* Fast of Asara B'Tevet
>
>
> is according to Sephardic tradition
>
> and others were not even transliterated such as
>
> Pesach-31 Fast of Esther
>
> So there are inconsistencies that should probably be resolved.
>
>
>
>>> /jl
>>>
>>>
>>>> jmc
>>>>
>>>>> Index: calendar.judaic
>>>>> ==============================================================
>>>>> ====
>>>>> =
>>>>> RCS file:
>>>>> /cvs/src/usr.bin/calendar/calendars/calendar.judaic,v
>>>>> retrieving revision 1.5
>>>>> diff -u -p -r1.5 calendar.judaic
>>>>> --- calendar.judaic 6 Sep 2005 23:42:59 -0000 1.5
>>>>> +++ calendar.judaic 12 Nov 2018 00:11:04 -0000
>>>>> @@ -7,7 +7,7 @@
>>>>>    #ifndef _calendar_judaic_
>>>>>    #define _calendar_judaic_
>>>>>    
>>>>> -Pesach+163 First Day of Rosh Hashanah (Jewish Lunar New
>>>>> Year;
>>>>> 5741 == 1980;
>>>>> +Pesach+163 First Day of Rosh Hashanah (Jewish Lunar New
>>>>> Year;
>>>>> 5779 == 2018;
>>>>>     sabbatical)
>>>>>    Pesach+164 Rosh Hashanah (sabbatical)
>>>>>    Pesach+166 Fast of Gedalya (Murder of Gedalya and
>>>>> subsequent
>>>>> Exile; fast day)
>>>>> @@ -17,8 +17,9 @@ Pesach+179 Succot (sabbatical)
>>>>>    Pesach+184 Hoshanah Rabba (7th day of Succos)
>>>>>    Pesach+185 Shmini Atzeres (8th Day of Gathering;
>>>>> sabbatical)
>>>>>    Pesach+186 Shmini Atzeres/Simchas Torah (Rejoicing of the
>>>>> Law;
>>>>> sabbatical)
>>>>> -12/12* First Day of Chanukah
>>>>> -12/27* Fast of Asara B'Tevet (Babylonians put siege on
>>>>> Jerusalem; fast day)
>>>>> +12/03* First Day of Chanukah
>>>>> +12/18* Fast of Asara B'Tevet (Babylonians put siege on
>>>>> Jerusalem; fast day)
>>>>> +01/20* Tu B'Shevat (New Year of the Trees)
>>>>>    Pesach-31 Fast of Esther (Battle of Purim; fast day)
>>>>>    Pesach-30 Purim (Feast of Lots)
>>>>>    Pesach-29 Purim (Feast of Lots)
>>>>> @@ -27,10 +28,10 @@ Pesach+1 Pesach (sabbatical)
>>>>>    Pesach+6 Pesach (sabbatical)
>>>>>    Pesach+7 Pesach (Last Day of Passover; 8th day of
>>>>> Pesach;
>>>>> sabbatical)
>>>>>    Pesach+34 Lag Ba`omer (Commemoration of the Great
>>>>> Rebellion)
>>>>> -05/22* Yom Yerushalayim (Reunification of Jerusalem)
>>>>> +06/01* Yom Yerushalayim (Reunification of Jerusalem)
>>>>>    Pesach+50 Shavuot (Festival of Weeks; sabbatical)
>>>>>    Pesach+51 Shavuot (Festival of Weeks; sabbatical)
>>>>> -07/10* Fast of Shiv'a Asar B'Tammuz (Romans breach Wall of
>>>>> Jerusalem; fast day)
>>>>> +07/21* Fast of Shiv'a Asar B'Tammuz (Romans breach Wall of
>>>>> Jerusalem; fast day)
>>>>>    Pesach+81 Fast of Tish'a B'Av (Babylon destroys Holy
>>>>> Temple;
>>>>> fast day)
>>>>>    
>>>>>    #endif /* !_calendar_judaic_ */
>>>>>
>>

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Re: Sync calendars.judaic with reality

John Long-4
On Mon, 2018-11-12 at 15:01 -0500, Brian Callahan wrote:

>
> On 11/12/18 1:13 PM, John Long wrote:
> > On Mon, 2018-11-12 at 12:38 -0500, Brian Callahan wrote:
> > > On 11/12/18 11:20 AM, John Long wrote:
> > > > On Mon, 2018-11-12 at 06:57 +0000, Jason McIntyre wrote:
> > > > > On Sun, Nov 11, 2018 at 07:36:55PM -0500, Brian Callahan
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > Hi tech --
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Reminded by the recent email to tech@ about
> > > > > > calendar.christian, I
> > > > > > took a look at syncing calendar.judaic.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > This diff does the following:
> > > > > > 1. Sync the holiday days that are not connected to Pesach,
> > > > > > which
> > > > > > on
> > > > > > our calendar is Chanukah, Fast of 10 Tevet, and Yom
> > > > > > Yerushalayim.
> > > >
> > > > I am not sure what this means. All of the Jewish holidays move
> > > > on
> > > > the
> > > > civil calendar year to year. However, since every time the
> > > > calendar
> > > > includes an additional month (a second Adar) the month is
> > > > inserted
> > > > before Pesach; therefore the holidays which fall after that
> > > > time
> > > > do
> > > > not move *relative to Pesach* but they do move on the civil
> > > > calendar.
> > >
> > > What are you talking about? This is in reference to the code in
> > > calendar(1) that sets the dates for the Judaic calendar. If you
> > > think
> > > there's something wrong there, I await your patch to
> > > usr.bin/calendar/pesach.c
> > >
> >
> > I haven't seen the code. I responded to the comment that "days are
> > not
> > connected to Pesach." All Jewish holidays are connected to Pesach,
> > it
> > is one of the points from which years are calculated. And my
> > statement
> > above and the explanation how it works is correct as I wrote it.
> >
> > So what are you talking about? Exactly what did I write that you
> > are
> > disputing here?
>
> If you haven't read pesach.c or the calendar.judaic code, then you
> can't
> be helped because it is obvious from a quick glance at the code
> that
> some of the dates on calendar.judaic are listed as Westernized
> dates
> (aka the ones my diff changes) and others are dates in the form of
> Pesach+/-n.

I looked at it and there is no revelation there, the code is just an
implementation of Gauss's Pesach algorithm, as it says. From that,
with an understanding of how the years are laid out along with some
basic math and in some cases specific rules for various fasts that
can't fall on Shabbes, etc. it's possible to write code that works
forever i.e. does not need to be changed every year.

You said the calendar has to be changed every year and is based on
western [civil] dates, so it's clear whoever is maintaing it doesn't
understand our calendar.

> I'll be moving forward with the oks I have and without your
> opinion on everything else below because you can go be a shanda
> somewhere else and not on this list, as this list is no place for
> your
> nonsense diatribe as to what counts as Judaism or not.

I'm qualified to correct issues with the transliterations and I
pointed out several inconsistencies earlier, and also to differentiate
between Jewish and civil holidays. When you translate these holidays
into English and if you want to include both major communities
(Ashkenaz and Sephard) you will have to have two sets of
transliterations. There is a third significant community (Yemenite)
but an English transliteration according to the Sephardi community
would be acceptable to them.

We use our calendar daily. In addition to info about when holidays
occur, we also have to know how the various times work out each day of
the year for religious observances during the day. So any useful
Jewish calendar necessarily includes things like astronomical
sunrise/sunset by geographic location and based on legal rulings over
history in each place where there was a Jewish community. We also need
to know about other times of the day derived from the length of the
daylight period as the days get longer and shorter. We have many
obligations and prohibitions based on the day of the year and time of
day. So we have a vital interest in understanding the calendar as it
was calculated and ratified thousands of years ago and it is in use
until now because to us it is actually relevant in our lives day by
day, hour by hour.

If you would like to see an example of what a Jewish calendar looks
like I can send you a couple of snapshots of the one I use. It is
really excellent and has a section explaining the various legal
opinions as well as providing the times based on those calculations.

/jl