Suggestion: Replace Perl with Lua in the OpenBSD Base System

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Re: Suggestion: Replace Perl with Lua in the OpenBSD Base System

Roderick

On Tue, 31 Dec 2019, Theo de Raadt wrote:
> Roderick <[hidden email]> wrote:

>> I am curious to know why tcl, my fovourite scripting lanuage, would
>> not be a candidate.
[...]
> Wow, it's a lot like you can't read.

It is more an academic question. I wanted to know more objective
critera than personal preferences when selecting a scripting
language. That perl is prefered, is understandable: it is one of the
oldest and very early on BSD. Tcl is also as old and evolved,
but its existence is today almost ignored. And I really do not
understand what new brings python that is today so in fashion,
the idea that indentation has a semantic does not make me entusiastic.

Rodrigo

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Re: Suggestion: Replace Perl with Lua in the OpenBSD Base System

Raul Miller
In reply to this post by danieljboyd
On Tue, Dec 31, 2019 at 1:32 PM <[hidden email]> wrote:
> I'm curious to know if there are any languages other than C and perl in
> use in OpenBSD base.

It's pretty easy to download the sources for base, and then:

tar zxf src.tar.gz
find . -type f -name '*.*' | sed 's/^.*\.//' | sort | uniq -c | sort
-n | tail -40

But, anyways: yes there are (and not just cpp and m4 and shell).

And, I can see why Theo seems to radiate such impatience at the
inanity of, for example, this thread.

--
Raul

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Re: Suggestion: Replace Perl with Lua in the OpenBSD Base System

paul wisehart
On Tue, Dec 31, 2019 at 02:02:47PM -0500, Raul Miller wrote:
> tar zxf src.tar.gz
> find . -type f -name '*.*' | sed 's/^.*\.//' | sort | uniq -c | sort
> -n | tail -40

That was fun, I learned about the -n option :) Thanks!
wise@hup:/usr/src$ find . -type f -name '*.*' | sed 's/^.*\.//' | sort | uniq -c | sort -n | tail -40 | sort -nr
17030 c
14060 h
5208 cpp
4043 C
2978 t
1567 out
1516 in
1424 txt
1414 pl
1394 py
1213 3
1011 sh
 968 pm
 955 4
 904 html
 751 S
 597 cc
 545 out++
 542 png
 534 rst
 523 out_ascii
 504 ok
 474 exp
 412 1
 391 td
 334 8
 320 map
 319 inc
 315 gn
 311 md5
 283 texi
 278 hpp
 277 md
 265 pod
 242 out_lint
 229 out_markdown
 211 m4
 207 m
 191 def
 179 f


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Re: Suggestion: Replace Perl with Lua in the OpenBSD Base System

Daniel Corbe-3
In reply to this post by Raul Miller
I like where this thread is headed.

To expand on this idea, maybe we should demonstrate how diversity and
inclusiveness can work in an operating system via language choices.
Why stop at TCL and LUA?  Or even scripting languages in general.  Why
not Go, Rust, Haskell and Scala too?

Hear me out.  We can set up a raffle system so that each winner can
write their winning tool in their language of choice.  All the
parallel development will even solve the "multi year effort" problem
that was brought up by the original poster too.  Nobody will mind
having another 8 or 9 languages in the base system, right?

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Re: Suggestion: Replace Perl with Lua in the OpenBSD Base System

Luke A. Call
In reply to this post by Raul Miller
On 12-31 14:02, Raul Miller wrote:
> On Tue, Dec 31, 2019 at 1:32 PM <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > I'm curious to know if there are any languages other than C and perl in
> > use in OpenBSD base.
> It's pretty easy to download the sources for base, and then:
> tar zxf src.tar.gz
> find . -type f -name '*.*' | sed 's/^.*\.//' | sort | uniq -c | sort
> -n | tail -40

For what it may be worth: another way I use to see "what is available"
(sometimes just to learn) is either: "man [1-9] intro" or go to
http://man.openbsd.org, optionally choose a section, put "." (without
quotes) in the search field, and click the "apropos" button.  

--
Please pray for our country(ies) and leaders, at this important time.
More on this and other topics (a simple, non-JS site w/ no sales):
http://lukecall.net  (updated 2019-12-8)

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Re: Suggestion: Replace Perl with Lua in the OpenBSD Base System

Eric Zylstra
In reply to this post by Daniel Corbe-3
Maybe the OP could just go ahead and replace all the Perl code with Lua and then ask for feedback from the other devs?  That is the OpenBSD way, right?  If it really is a great idea, they’d all be really excited.  In any case, it would kill this thread.

EZ


Sent from my iPhone

> On Dec 31, 2019, at 1:22 PM, Daniel Corbe <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I like where this thread is headed.
>
> To expand on this idea, maybe we should demonstrate how diversity and
> inclusiveness can work in an operating system via language choices.
> Why stop at TCL and LUA?  Or even scripting languages in general.  Why
> not Go, Rust, Haskell and Scala too?
>
> Hear me out.  We can set up a raffle system so that each winner can
> write their winning tool in their language of choice.  All the
> parallel development will even solve the "multi year effort" problem
> that was brought up by the original poster too.  Nobody will mind
> having another 8 or 9 languages in the base system, right?
>

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Re: Suggestion: Replace Perl with Lua in the OpenBSD Base System

Christer Solskogen-3
In reply to this post by Marc Espie-2
On Tue, Dec 31, 2019 at 5:50 PM Marc Espie <[hidden email]> wrote:

> We did retire vax, and we no longer have any platform without dynamic
> libraries.
>
>
OT but: out of sheer curiosity, why didn't VAX support dynamic libraries?
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Re: perl popularity inside openbsd community? (Re: Suggestion: Replace Perl ...)

Anders Andersson
In reply to this post by Marc Chantreux
On Tue, Dec 31, 2019 at 4:30 PM Marc Chantreux
<[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> On Tue, Dec 31, 2019 at 06:57:02AM -0600, Daniel Boyd wrote:
> > As one of the few remaining people out there who considers perl to be
> > their favorite language—starting to wonder if it’s just me and Larry
> > Wall at this point—I’d like to say that perl should stay in base on
> > its merits, all the perl-based system tools notwithstanding.
>
> one of the few remaining people ? is it so ? i really wonder ...
>
> Perl bashing is around the IT crowd for 20 decades and yet, when i
> compare with other dynamic langages:
>
> * perl is the only one who gives me the conciseness and spirit of unix
>   tools combined to the power of a dynamic langage (the only close one
>   is ruby, the next level is raku, the others look like jokes to me).
>   so as openbsd people seems to be confortable with this unix culture,
>   i'm inclined to think that perl is popular here.
> * CPAN is the best ecosystem to share code (metacpan is just awesome
>   compared to the other package sites, tooling is very good as well)
> * the popularity of perl around me don't reflect the "perl is dead" moto
>   we heard since so many years (yes: there is a decline but it's in
>   flavor of compiled langages. the only one who switched to python
>   made this choice for money reason)
>
> both perl and openbsd popularities are underestimated just because
> they still prefer mailing lists over stackoverflow (or other web
> services who try to buzz with some charts) and don't care that much
> about marketing. but still: i will be curious to know the perl
> popularity in the openbsd community.

Don't know if anyone cares because I'm not an OpenBSD dev (maybe some
day I'll find something useful to hack on), but perl is definitely my
go-to language. I agree with the "conciseness and spirit of unix
tools", it is something that I have thought about but have never been
able to formulate.

Of course its age is showing in some areas but in my experience, those
things are actually still worked on, and have been fixed without major
incompatibilities (python3 anyone?).

I remember a few years ago when I was briefly researching a
replacement for perl for my personal projects and I tried out python3
and ruby in parallel and ruby was definitely the winner there. I have
absolutely no idea why python even gained the popularity it has, it
felt like a random hack, especially compared to ruby. The only thing I
really miss from python is "yield".

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Re: Suggestion: Replace Perl with Lua in the OpenBSD Base System

Theo de Raadt-2
In reply to this post by Eric Zylstra
Isn't it a bit disrespectful to assume someone on misc@ is going to
write such a large diff?

> Maybe the OP could just go ahead and replace all the Perl code with Lua and then ask for feedback from the other devs?  That is the OpenBSD way, right?  If it really is a great idea, they’d all be really excited.  In any case, it would kill this thread.
>
> EZ
>
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> > On Dec 31, 2019, at 1:22 PM, Daniel Corbe <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > I like where this thread is headed.
> >
> > To expand on this idea, maybe we should demonstrate how diversity and
> > inclusiveness can work in an operating system via language choices.
> > Why stop at TCL and LUA?  Or even scripting languages in general.  Why
> > not Go, Rust, Haskell and Scala too?
> >
> > Hear me out.  We can set up a raffle system so that each winner can
> > write their winning tool in their language of choice.  All the
> > parallel development will even solve the "multi year effort" problem
> > that was brought up by the original poster too.  Nobody will mind
> > having another 8 or 9 languages in the base system, right?
> >
>

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Re: Suggestion: Replace Perl with Lua in the OpenBSD Base System

Eric Zylstra
Proposing such a huge project without the ability to do it?  I may have been a little disrespectful, but not the first one in the thread.  And my point wasn’t to be disrespectful, but to point out that most proposals unaccompanied by code and that don’t solve obvious problems don’t seem to be received very well.  Apologies if that wasn’t within bounds.

E


Sent from my iPhone

> On Dec 31, 2019, at 3:46 PM, Theo de Raadt <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Isn't it a bit disrespectful to assume someone on misc@ is going to
>  write such a large diff?
>
>> Maybe the OP could just go ahead and replace all the Perl code with Lua and then ask for feedback from the other devs?  That is the OpenBSD way, right?  If it really is a great idea, they’d all be really excited.  In any case, it would kill this thread.
>>
>> EZ
>>
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>>>> On Dec 31, 2019, at 1:22 PM, Daniel Corbe <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>> I like where this thread is headed.
>>>
>>> To expand on this idea, maybe we should demonstrate how diversity and
>>> inclusiveness can work in an operating system via language choices.
>>> Why stop at TCL and LUA?  Or even scripting languages in general.  Why
>>> not Go, Rust, Haskell and Scala too?
>>>
>>> Hear me out.  We can set up a raffle system so that each winner can
>>> write their winning tool in their language of choice.  All the
>>> parallel development will even solve the "multi year effort" problem
>>> that was brought up by the original poster too.  Nobody will mind
>>> having another 8 or 9 languages in the base system, right?
>>>
>>

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Re: Suggestion: Replace Perl with Lua in the OpenBSD Base System

Theo de Raadt-2
I guess I'm saying in these trying times it is considered disrespectful
to dismiss completely labour-unsupported "ideas", obviously once we accept
the Great Idea the OP will sit down and do all the required work to prove
the cast after the fact.

Eric Zylstra <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Proposing such a huge project without the ability to do it?  I may have been a little disrespectful, but not the first one in the thread.  And my point wasn’t to be disrespectful, but to point out that most proposals unaccompanied by code and that don’t solve obvious problems don’t seem to be received very well.  Apologies if that wasn’t within bounds.
>
> E
>
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> > On Dec 31, 2019, at 3:46 PM, Theo de Raadt <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > Isn't it a bit disrespectful to assume someone on misc@ is going to
> >  write such a large diff?
> >
> >> Maybe the OP could just go ahead and replace all the Perl code with Lua and then ask for feedback from the other devs?  That is the OpenBSD way, right?  If it really is a great idea, they’d all be really excited.  In any case, it would kill this thread.
> >>
> >> EZ
> >>
> >>
> >> Sent from my iPhone
> >>
> >>>> On Dec 31, 2019, at 1:22 PM, Daniel Corbe <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> I like where this thread is headed.
> >>>
> >>> To expand on this idea, maybe we should demonstrate how diversity and
> >>> inclusiveness can work in an operating system via language choices.
> >>> Why stop at TCL and LUA?  Or even scripting languages in general.  Why
> >>> not Go, Rust, Haskell and Scala too?
> >>>
> >>> Hear me out.  We can set up a raffle system so that each winner can
> >>> write their winning tool in their language of choice.  All the
> >>> parallel development will even solve the "multi year effort" problem
> >>> that was brought up by the original poster too.  Nobody will mind
> >>> having another 8 or 9 languages in the base system, right?
> >>>
> >>
>

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Re: Suggestion: Replace Perl with Lua in the OpenBSD Base System

danieljboyd
We could always rewrite the entire operating system in Pascal. FreePascal and GNU Pascal are both GPL, so we’ll need to write a new compiler as well. Shouldn’t take too long. Who wants to go register openpascal.org?

I’ll get a diff started

program OpenBSD;
begin
{ some code here }
end.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Dec 31, 2019, at 5:18 PM, Theo de Raadt <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I guess I'm saying in these trying times it is considered disrespectful
> to dismiss completely labour-unsupported "ideas", obviously once we accept
> the Great Idea the OP will sit down and do all the required work to prove
> the cast after the fact.
>
> Eric Zylstra <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> Proposing such a huge project without the ability to do it?  I may have been a little disrespectful, but not the first one in the thread.  And my point wasn’t to be disrespectful, but to point out that most proposals unaccompanied by code and that don’t solve obvious problems don’t seem to be received very well.  Apologies if that wasn’t within bounds.
>>
>> E
>>
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>>>> On Dec 31, 2019, at 3:46 PM, Theo de Raadt <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>> Isn't it a bit disrespectful to assume someone on misc@ is going to
>>> write such a large diff?
>>>
>>>> Maybe the OP could just go ahead and replace all the Perl code with Lua and then ask for feedback from the other devs?  That is the OpenBSD way, right?  If it really is a great idea, they’d all be really excited.  In any case, it would kill this thread.
>>>>
>>>> EZ
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>
>>>>>> On Dec 31, 2019, at 1:22 PM, Daniel Corbe <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> I like where this thread is headed.
>>>>>
>>>>> To expand on this idea, maybe we should demonstrate how diversity and
>>>>> inclusiveness can work in an operating system via language choices.
>>>>> Why stop at TCL and LUA?  Or even scripting languages in general.  Why
>>>>> not Go, Rust, Haskell and Scala too?
>>>>>
>>>>> Hear me out.  We can set up a raffle system so that each winner can
>>>>> write their winning tool in their language of choice.  All the
>>>>> parallel development will even solve the "multi year effort" problem
>>>>> that was brought up by the original poster too.  Nobody will mind
>>>>> having another 8 or 9 languages in the base system, right?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>
>

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Re: Suggestion: Replace Perl with Lua in the OpenBSD Base System

Christopher Turkel
In reply to this post by Theo de Raadt-2
I am still waiting to this diff myself.

On Tuesday, December 31, 2019, Theo de Raadt <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I guess I'm saying in these trying times it is considered disrespectful
> to dismiss completely labour-unsupported "ideas", obviously once we accept
> the Great Idea the OP will sit down and do all the required work to prove
> the cast after the fact.
>
> Eric Zylstra <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > Proposing such a huge project without the ability to do it?  I may have
> been a little disrespectful, but not the first one in the thread.  And my
> point wasn’t to be disrespectful, but to point out that most proposals
> unaccompanied by code and that don’t solve obvious problems don’t seem to
> be received very well.  Apologies if that wasn’t within bounds.
> >
> > E
> >
> >
> > Sent from my iPhone
> >
> > > On Dec 31, 2019, at 3:46 PM, Theo de Raadt <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> > >
> > > Isn't it a bit disrespectful to assume someone on misc@ is going to
> > >  write such a large diff?
> > >
> > >> Maybe the OP could just go ahead and replace all the Perl code with
> Lua and then ask for feedback from the other devs?  That is the OpenBSD
> way, right?  If it really is a great idea, they’d all be really excited.
> In any case, it would kill this thread.
> > >>
> > >> EZ
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Sent from my iPhone
> > >>
> > >>>> On Dec 31, 2019, at 1:22 PM, Daniel Corbe <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>> I like where this thread is headed.
> > >>>
> > >>> To expand on this idea, maybe we should demonstrate how diversity and
> > >>> inclusiveness can work in an operating system via language choices.
> > >>> Why stop at TCL and LUA?  Or even scripting languages in general.
> Why
> > >>> not Go, Rust, Haskell and Scala too?
> > >>>
> > >>> Hear me out.  We can set up a raffle system so that each winner can
> > >>> write their winning tool in their language of choice.  All the
> > >>> parallel development will even solve the "multi year effort" problem
> > >>> that was brought up by the original poster too.  Nobody will mind
> > >>> having another 8 or 9 languages in the base system, right?
> > >>>
> > >>
> >
>
>
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Re: Suggestion: Replace Perl with Lua in the OpenBSD Base System

Steve Litt
In reply to this post by Eric Zylstra
On Tue, 31 Dec 2019 15:57:47 -0600
Eric Zylstra <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Proposing such a huge project without the ability to do it?  I may
> have been a little disrespectful, but not the first one in the
> thread.  And my point wasn’t to be disrespectful, but to point out
> that most proposals unaccompanied by code and that don’t solve
> obvious problems don’t seem to be received very well.  Apologies if
> that wasn’t within bounds.

What if the OP had instead of the suggestion submitted two or three Lua
scripts to replace two or three Perl scripts? Would you still have the
same opinion?

SteveT

Steve Litt
December 2019 featured book: Rapid Learning for the 21st Century
http://www.troubleshooters.com/rl21

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Re: Suggestion: Replace Perl with Lua in the OpenBSD Base System

Theo de Raadt-2
Steve Litt <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Tue, 31 Dec 2019 15:57:47 -0600
> Eric Zylstra <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > Proposing such a huge project without the ability to do it?  I may
> > have been a little disrespectful, but not the first one in the
> > thread.  And my point wasn’t to be disrespectful, but to point out
> > that most proposals unaccompanied by code and that don’t solve
> > obvious problems don’t seem to be received very well.  Apologies if
> > that wasn’t within bounds.
>
> What if the OP had instead of the suggestion submitted two or three Lua
> scripts to replace two or three Perl scripts? Would you still have the
> same opinion?

We would definately have been impressed by his replacement of the
existing pkg tools, which as written today are around 23,000 lines of
perl.

But should we really bother debating "what if"?

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Re: Suggestion: Replace Perl with Lua in the OpenBSD Base System

Stuart Longland
In reply to this post by danieljboyd
On 31/12/19 10:57 pm, Daniel Boyd wrote:
> As one of the few remaining people out there who considers perl to be their favorite language—starting to wonder if it’s just me and Larry Wall at this point—I’d like to say that perl should stay in base on its merits, all the perl-based system tools notwithstanding.

I coded a lot in Perl before moving onto PHP and other languages… the
only time I've done lots with Java was when I was at university.

Perl was definitely my first taste of coding for a Unix-like operating
system, having previously been solely exposed to variants of BASIC prior
(QBASIC, CA Realizer BASIC, VisualBASIC).  (Sorry Dijkstra, some of us
*do* move beyond that language.)

C++ and Haskell were other languages I learned at university.  C did
feature in my lectures, but I don't consider two slides describing the
syntax of "if", "for", and various variable data types as being
"instruction".  Had I not learned C++ or dabbled with C prior to uni,
I'd be stuffed in the subjects that needed C knowledge.

Python I had dabbled with, but only started using recently because of my
current workplace.  They needed a metering product, and the choices of
language offered to me were Python and PHP; being a cron-based service
doing lots of serial port I/O, I chose Python.  These days I do lots in
that language.

I'd have chosen Perl5 at the time if it were on the table, there is
nothing wrong with it, it is stable and mature.  Just that it is no
longer "trendy".

That said, choosing a language because of its popularity is totally the
wrong approach.  It's a question of whether it is suitable for the job.
 Notably, are there libraries of sufficient quality that you can utilise
to get the job you're after done quickly.

Python has pypi.  Perl has had CPAN for ages.

Perl 6 will be a major change though, more disruptive than the Python2→3
mess was.  So we may be in for some "fun" in the near future.
--
Stuart Longland (aka Redhatter, VK4MSL)

I haven't lost my mind...
  ...it's backed up on a tape somewhere.

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Re: Suggestion: Replace Perl with Lua in the OpenBSD Base System

Stuart Longland
In reply to this post by danieljboyd
On 1/1/20 3:13 am, [hidden email] wrote:
> I'm curious to know if there are any languages other than C and perl in
> use in OpenBSD base.

/bin/sh?

*ducks*

--
Stuart Longland (aka Redhatter, VK4MSL)

I haven't lost my mind...
  ...it's backed up on a tape somewhere.

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Re: Suggestion: Replace Perl with Lua in the OpenBSD Base System

Stuart Longland
In reply to this post by Christer Solskogen-3
On 1/1/20 6:06 am, Christer Solskogen wrote:
> On Tue, Dec 31, 2019 at 5:50 PM Marc Espie <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> We did retire vax, and we no longer have any platform without dynamic
>> libraries.
>>
>>
> OT but: out of sheer curiosity, why didn't VAX support dynamic libraries?
>

Did vax have an MMU?  That'd make dynamic libraries tricky I'd imagine.

--
Stuart Longland (aka Redhatter, VK4MSL)

I haven't lost my mind...
  ...it's backed up on a tape somewhere.

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Re: Suggestion: Replace Perl with Lua in the OpenBSD Base System

eecd
In reply to this post by ansimita
 > I like where this thread is headed.
 >
 > To expand on this idea, maybe we should demonstrate how diversity and
 > inclusiveness can work in an operating system via language choices.
 > Why stop at TCL and LUA?  Or even scripting languages in general.  Why
 > not Go, Rust, Haskell and Scala too?
 >
 > Hear me out.  We can set up a raffle system so that each winner can
 > write their winning tool in their language of choice.  All the
 > parallel development will even solve the "multi year effort" problem
 > that was brought up by the original poster too.  Nobody will mind
 > having another 8 or 9 languages in the base system, right?

underrated response

eww rust *cringe*

i suspect 2020 will see a sharp increase in the woke brigade's attempts to
place
OpenBSD firmly underfoot of the diversity agenda. OpenBSD is one of the
last
extremely rare bastions of freedom that hasn't been coerced into marching
in
lockstep with the crowd of progressive madness. and don't think that it
doesn't
grind on the gears of those power hungry authoritarian narcissist pushers
of
the diversity drug who know better than you, who are better than you and
who
do better than you with every virtue signaling code of conduct and safe
(space)
language. you didn't think it was coincidence that c is demonized for not
being
"safe" did you? rather than the programmer being responsible for writing
unsafe
code we need to regulate what the programmer can do just like we need to
regulate what the community can say, do, see, and think. accountability is
oppression. it's not his fault he didn't do any error handling it's c's
fault!


At moment, I want my privacy to be protected.
https://mytemp.email/

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Re: Suggestion: Replace Perl with Lua in the OpenBSD Base System

Frank Beuth
On Wed, Jan 01, 2020 at 04:00:37AM +0000, [hidden email] wrote:
>rather than the programmer being responsible for
>writing unsafe
>code we need to regulate what the programmer can do just like we need to
>regulate what the community can say, do, see, and think.

where do I sign up for OpenBSD write-perfect-C-code programmer training bootcamp?

12345