Sorry OpenBSD people, been a bit busy

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Re: Sorry OpenBSD people, been a bit busy

Benjamin Heath
Adding to your previous thoughts, it became clear to me some years ago that
the best way to gather information on someone is to find information which
they've volunteered.

Facebook and other social networks have a space to select your religion,
sexual identity, location, school, work, and contact information. Much of
this information can be selected from existing lists. Supplying this
information hands it into the realm of Facebook "apps" with permission to
access that information, too.

But, people have given up this information. They weren't even paid or
coerced. Why so naive?

But that's just it, isn't it? People are naive. They go to public schools
where they are taught to accept what is popular and reject all else, and
that's where much of it starts. Computers must run Windows. If you want to
be different, buy a Mac. Programs must be big and graphical with plenty of
room for error. Why have it any other way?

I have also noticed that the news is saying what is and isn't common sense
now. They use this term as a backhanded directive, as if to say, "Of course
it is so, this is common sense." In fact, common sense is a little more
inquisitive than that, and common sense would actually have it that you
don't trust everything you hear.

On topic and as a response to Theo, Twitter is a vehicle of passive
aggression and ad hominem attacks among other things. I blame Twitter for
the direction much of the Internet has taken. It is quick, it is short, and
that's how people are with other people. They are quick, and they are
short. And it seems a pretty weak attempt at disparaging your character.

Thank you, and please, please keep it up.
On Oct 8, 2013 6:14 PM, "Scott McEachern" <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 10/08/13 20:42, [hidden email] wrote:
>
>> I love OpenBSD, seriously, and developers of it are clearly geniuses. And
>> any chance I get I promote it.
>>
>
> Excellent, and I applaud you for that.
>
> You should take a look at the papers/presentations the devs have given.
>  The stuff Theo wrote on W^X was mind boggling.  Over my head, but I got
> the gist.  I'm not going to find the ones I'm thinking of (it's been a
> while since I read them), I'll leave that as an exercise for the reader.
>  You'll find plenty of mind-blowing stuff.
>
> (Ok, I can't resist.  I'll link to one particular page that's really easy
> to understand: http://www.openbsd.org/papers/**eurobsdcon_2013_time_t/**
> mgp00003.html<http://www.openbsd.org/papers/eurobsdcon_2013_time_t/mgp00003.html>.
> Maybe another, this is from 2005, and I nearly lost my mind:
> http://www.openbsd.org/papers/**ven05-deraadt/index.html<http://www.openbsd.org/papers/ven05-deraadt/index.html>
> )
>
> I don't mean to single out Theo, but he started this thread, so he remains
> the focus.  You should read the stuff the other devs have written, it's all
> excellent stuff.  The genius shines through.
>
>  Sent from my BlackBerry 10 smartphone on the Verizon Wireless 4G LTE
>> network.
>>
>
> All I can say is, I hope you don't do anything private with your device.
>  You have two /proven/ weak points in your hand.  Anything HTTPS/TLS/SSL on
> your handheld is probably moot, but I'd still use crypto anyway. :)
>  Convenience comes with a price.
>
> And Richard, thanks for sharing your thoughts.  It adds to the balance.
>
> --
> Scott McEachern
>
> https://www.blackstaff.ca
>
> "Beware the Four Horsemen of the Information Apocalypse: terrorists, drug
> dealers, kidnappers, and child pornographers. Seems like you can scare any
> public into allowing the government to do anything with those four."  --
> Bruce Schneier

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Re: Sorry OpenBSD people, been a bit busy

Scott McEachern-2
On 10/08/13 22:44, Benjamin Heath wrote:
> Adding to your previous thoughts, it became clear to me some years ago that
> the best way to gather information on someone is to find information which
> they've volunteered.

The US Army, namely D/arpa and the Navy, invented the Internet and onion
routing.

I can't believe they didn't invent such a clever way to extract
information before MySpace/Facebook did.

> Facebook and other social networks have a space to select your religion,
> sexual identity, location, school, work, and contact information. Much of
> this information can be selected from existing lists. Supplying this
> information hands it into the realm of Facebook "apps" with permission to
> access that information, too.
>
> But, people have given up this information. They weren't even paid or
> coerced. Why so naive?

I think P.T. Barnum said something about that.

People like free stuff. They think they are using a product for free.
They don't realize *they* are the product.

I don't have a Facebook account. I have a G+ account (by way of having a
gmail account for mailing lists) with a picture of my cat, and no
information about myself except links to my website.

> But that's just it, isn't it? People are naive. They go to public schools
> where they are taught to accept what is popular and reject all else, and
> that's where much of it starts. Computers must run Windows. If you want to
> be different, buy a Mac. Programs must be big and graphical with plenty of
> room for error. Why have it any other way?

So far as I understand it, kids often aren't being taught the course
material. They're being "taught the test". That is, the standardized
evaluation tests for each subject. It inflates test scores to
"acceptable" limits.

The ability to think, critically, isn't being taught at all. You have
kids walking out of school thinking crap like "Intelligent Design" is
plausible, and that the earth really is only 6000 years old. Darwin's
ideas are "just theories", but fail to realize gravity is "just a
theory" too. Stand on a 10th floor balcony, and test out that "just a
theory".

Why would kids do such silly things as read books, when they have
summarized versions online that they can skim over while they're waiting
for their tweet/facebook update to be replied to. After all, it is the
most profound 130 character message ever written.

> I have also noticed that the news is saying what is and isn't common sense
> now. They use this term as a backhanded directive, as if to say, "Of course
> it is so, this is common sense." In fact, common sense is a little more
> inquisitive than that, and common sense would actually have it that you
> don't trust everything you hear.

"I read it on the Internet, therefore it must be true."

99% of the "news" people digest daily is spoon fed to them by five
megacorps that are more than happy to frame the narrative for you.
People worship celebrities that are only famous because of their
surnames or relatives, and spend their leisure time on the couch
watching (un)reality TV shows.

TV crime shows, like CSI, get DNA results in minutes. They can pinpoint
the bad guy, right down to the floor he's on, within seconds just from
his IP address. Strong encryption is broken within seconds on a laptop
computer. Firewalls are routinely hacked within minutes. Cases are
always solved with conclusive proof.

Ask any prosecutor how her life in the courtroom has changed since
CSI-type shows hit the air. Everyone on the jury is an armchair expert
criminalist, and they get confused when cases aren't cut and dried,
black and white.

The founding fathers of the US understood that an educated public,
active in the political process, is a good thing.

Modern politicians understand that an uneducated, apathetic public is a
better thing.

> On topic and as a response to Theo, Twitter is a vehicle of passive
> aggression and ad hominem attacks among other things. I blame Twitter for
> the direction much of the Internet has taken. It is quick, it is short, and
> that's how people are with other people. They are quick, and they are
> short. And it seems a pretty weak attempt at disparaging your character.

I suppose twitter has its good uses, like during the Arab Spring, but by
and large it's a time sink to read fluff. I wrote to someone earlier
sharing my one and only tweet from three years ago. (I plagiarized Marco
Peereboom.)

<crap>
*Scott McEachern* ‏@*scott_mceachern*
<https://twitter.com/scott_mceachern> 24 Nov 10
<https://twitter.com/scott_mceachern/status/7477254057631744>

Twitter is the stupidest fucking thing to happen on the Internet.
</crap>

Like I said, you read it on the Internet, so it must be true.

--
Scott McEachern

https://www.blackstaff.ca

"Beware the Four Horsemen of the Information Apocalypse: terrorists, drug dealers, kidnappers, and child pornographers. Seems like you can scare any public into allowing the government to do anything with those four."  -- Bruce Schneier

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Re: Sorry OpenBSD people, been a bit busy

Benjamin Heath
On Oct 8, 2013 8:21 PM, "Scott McEachern" <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> On 10/08/13 22:44, Benjamin Heath wrote:
>> But that's just it, isn't it? People are naive. They go to public schools
>> where they are taught to accept what is popular and reject all else, and
>> that's where much of it starts. Computers must run Windows. If you want
to
>> be different, buy a Mac. Programs must be big and graphical with plenty
of
>> room for error. Why have it any other way?
>
>
> So far as I understand it, kids often aren't being taught the course
material. They're being "taught the test". That is, the standardized
evaluation tests for each subject. It inflates test scores to "acceptable"
limits.
>
> The ability to think, critically, isn't being taught at all. You have
kids walking out of school thinking crap like "Intelligent Design" is
plausible, and that the earth really is only 6000 years old. Darwin's ideas
are "just theories", but fail to realize gravity is "just a theory" too.
Stand on a 10th floor balcony, and test out that "just a theory".
>
> Why would kids do such silly things as read books, when they have
summarized versions online that they can skim over while they're waiting
for their tweet/facebook update to be replied to. After all, it is the most
profound 130 character message ever written.

It isn't only the course material or the testing material, but I'd argue
that public school itself is a critical time in which a young human being
learns to desire what's popular, and to desire to be popular. (Look, I'm a
geek, and things like The Big Bang Theory on CBS make me cringe.) But the
lack of critical thinking in this issue leads to a lot of confused kids who
then graduate and are soon called legal adults if they aren't already. And
then what? Inattention, apathy, acceptance, mediocrity, and that's how the
toad boils.

It's also quite interesting that there are more books and other documents
on this planet than ever before, more people know the basics of how to read
and write than ever before, and yet the interest is shot down by lack of
attention, for whichever reason.

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Re: Sorry OpenBSD people, been a bit busy

Zé Loff-2
In reply to this post by Scott McEachern-2
On Oct 9, 2013, at 12:15 AM, Scott McEachern <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 10/08/13 17:38, Richard Thornton wrote:
>> I am not flippant enough to say that the NSA revelations do not matter,
>> but what are we supposed to do?  The Middle Eastern terrorism threat is
>> real and we need to be able to stop them anyway necessary.
>>
>> All it takes is one of them to hit every Walmart in the neighborhood,
>> buy every pay-as-you-go phone they have, then pass them out to their
>> friends in every Mosque.  Now you have a new terrorism threat.  So,
>> welcome to the real world my friend, and wake up.

[...]

> And for the record, both you and Ze Loff should stick to facts and rational discussion.  Bigots and morons are best defeated with those, and they'll show their true colours, debasing their own opinions.  There's no need for insults and ad hominem attacks.

First of all I owe an apology to the list and, albeit partially, to Richard. I now realise I overreacted a bit. I don't think hate (in the broadest sense of the word) belongs in this list and the comments the kind of which Richard made really get on my nerves. Ironically enough, I ended up spreading the hate myself. Again, my apologies.

That being said, Richard, if you still stand behind your comment and your gross generalisation about muslims, I must still call you a bigot. And just for the sake of clarity I have the utmost respect for the victims of 9/11, as I have for those in Boston, Fallujah, Gaza, Auschwitz, Sbrenica, Sudan, Rwanda, Chechnya or in that theatre in Moscow a few years ago. In short for every one who was harmed by some idiot/state who thinks his beliefs (religious or not) is better than the rest of them. The "all muslims are terrorists" generalisation is as dumb and shortsighted as saying all blond girls are stupid, all americans are fat gun fanatics, all germans are nazis, all jews are... I'm sure you get the point.

Just to bring this slightly back on-topic, please realise that terrorism (as real as it is) has been used as an pretext. Intercepting communications on the UN has nothing to do with it, nor does planting bugs on the European Parliament, nor does spying on Brasil's President or its state oil company.

And Scott, thanks for setting me straight and for the rest of your message.


Again sorry for the noise and kudos on the YYCIX, Theo.


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Re: Sorry OpenBSD people, been a bit busy

Zé Loff-2
In reply to this post by Benjamin Heath
On Oct 9, 2013, at 3:44 AM, Benjamin Heath <[hidden email]> wrote:

> But, people have given up this information. They weren't even paid or
> coerced. Why so naive?

(Quite) a few years ago, the Dutch government wanted to make sure everyone had a proper burial, according to each one's beliefs and rituals. So they asked people to state their religious beliefs. This is a good idea right? Everyone's wishes get respected even if you had no family or if your whole family died in an accident or fire or whatever. Besides, "I've got nothing to hide, being <insert your religion here> is nothing to be ashamed of and I'm proud of my heritage". So the government made a nice list. And then a few years later Germany invaded the Netherlands.

Point being, it's not naiveté. It's this whole "I've got nothing to hide anyway, let them look" / "I am not that important" mentality. People fail to realise that this is not about you having something to hide or not. It's about your right to hide something /if and when you want to/.

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Re: Sorry OpenBSD people, been a bit busy

Scott McEachern-2
On 10/09/13 05:08, Zé Loff wrote:
>
> (Quite) a few years ago, the Dutch government wanted to make sure everyone had a proper burial, according to each one's beliefs and rituals. So they asked people to state their religious beliefs. This is a good idea right? Everyone's wishes get respected even if you had no family or if your whole family died in an accident or fire or whatever. Besides, "I've got nothing to hide, being <insert your religion here> is nothing to be ashamed of and I'm proud of my heritage". So the government made a nice list. And then a few years later Germany invaded the Netherlands.
>
> Point being, it's not naiveté. It's this whole "I've got nothing to hide anyway, let them look" / "I am not that important" mentality. People fail to realise that this is not about you having something to hide or not. It's about your right to hide something /if and when you want to/.

Both of your last two posts, well said.

Thanks for pointing out that it was the Netherlands that kept that data,
and why.  When I mentioned it earlier, I wasn't sure earlier if it was
the Belgians or the Dutch, or why.  Good to know, and remember.

--
Scott McEachern

https://www.blackstaff.ca

"Beware the Four Horsemen of the Information Apocalypse: terrorists, drug dealers, kidnappers, and child pornographers. Seems like you can scare any public into allowing the government to do anything with those four."  -- Bruce Schneier

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Re: Sorry OpenBSD people, been a bit busy

RichardET
In reply to this post by Zé Loff-2
I am not stupid & midwestern enough to believe that all Muslims are a
terrorist threat.  My son is half jewish and I am not even reflexively
pro-israel.  I find that when I enter a church or a temple, its a bit
of mental torture;  over the weekend I was at a bat mitzvah and believe
me, it was torture. I am about as far from the beliefs of david horowitz
as you can get.  I live near Princeton, and personally I think that NJ is
a police state;  they actually monitor people's license plates and I was
harrassed 5 years ago in a park near princeton, because I was caught
there after dark in my car with a partially used bottle of wine.
They harrassed me for over 15 minutes making me dance around out of my
car, then they let me go;  later I was in the starbucks in princeton,
about midnite, and these two saw me and started laughing.  Its all a joke
to these guys - "law & order."

Anyway, according to bin laden, he just wanted us out
of arab lands.  That was his main gripe.  Boy, if thats all it takes, I
would go in a heart beat, why fight these guys?  But somehow I think they
also want us out of portugal, spain, turkey, north africa, and ultimately
israel.  Last year I saw David Broza at 92nd St Y;  he personally
sponsored 4 young musicians from Nazareth, 3 of whom were palestinian.
I have to tell you, at least 85% of the audience, standing room only was
jewish, and all loved this guy and the concert.  Obviously there are
people on the other side, including myself, looking for an olive branch
and a way out of this global mess, buts whats with all these draconian
blasphemy laws in places like pakistand, iran, and saudi arabia?  Why cant
a britsh citizen like Rushdie write a book iranians dont like and be in
hiding for literally years?  They even targeted publishers in NYC over his
book.  What about the Van Gogh murder????? It is a concern of mine that
what is happening in France with Algerians, and others, and what is in
England with Pakistanis will spill into NJ.  We shouldnt unfairly target
muslims, but they should likewise leave me alone;  I may be the great
satan, but I have never advocated military action in any of their lands,
except to get bin laden in 2002.


On Wed, 9 Oct 2013, Zé Loff wrote:

> On Oct 9, 2013, at 12:15 AM, Scott McEachern <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> On 10/08/13 17:38, Richard Thornton wrote:
>>> I am not flippant enough to say that the NSA revelations do not matter,
>>> but what are we supposed to do?  The Middle Eastern terrorism threat is
>>> real and we need to be able to stop them anyway necessary.
>>>
>>> All it takes is one of them to hit every Walmart in the neighborhood,
>>> buy every pay-as-you-go phone they have, then pass them out to their
>>> friends in every Mosque.  Now you have a new terrorism threat.  So,
>>> welcome to the real world my friend, and wake up.
>
> [...]
>
>> And for the record, both you and Ze Loff should stick to facts and rational
discussion.  Bigots and morons are best defeated with those, and they'll show
their true colours, debasing their own opinions.  There's no need for insults
and ad hominem attacks.
>
> First of all I owe an apology to the list and, albeit partially, to Richard.
I now realise I overreacted a bit. I don't think hate (in the broadest sense
of the word) belongs in this list and the comments the kind of which Richard
made really get on my nerves. Ironically enough, I ended up spreading the hate
myself. Again, my apologies.
>
> That being said, Richard, if you still stand behind your comment and your
gross generalisation about muslims, I must still call you a bigot. And just
for the sake of clarity I have the utmost respect for the victims of 9/11, as
I have for those in Boston, Fallujah, Gaza, Auschwitz, Sbrenica, Sudan,
Rwanda, Chechnya or in that theatre in Moscow a few years ago. In short for
every one who was harmed by some idiot/state who thinks his beliefs (religious
or not) is better than the rest of them. The "all muslims are terrorists"
generalisation is as dumb and shortsighted as saying all blond girls are
stupid, all americans are fat gun fanatics, all germans are nazis, all jews
are... I'm sure you get the point.
>
> Just to bring this slightly back on-topic, please realise that terrorism (as
real as it is) has been used as an pretext. Intercepting communications on the
UN has nothing to do with it, nor does planting bugs on the European
Parliament, nor does spying on Brasil's President or its state oil company.
>
> And Scott, thanks for setting me straight and for the rest of your message.
>
>
> Again sorry for the noise and kudos on the YYCIX, Theo.
> Zé

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Re: Sorry OpenBSD people, been a bit busy

Peter Hessler
This has gotten massively off topic.  Can we please let the thread end here?

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Re: Sorry OpenBSD people, been a bit busy

Christiano F. Haesbaert
In reply to this post by RichardET
It might come as a shock for you all.

But we don't give a flying fuck for what you guys think about X where
X is not related to OpenBSD.

Try #ihavetheurgetoexpressmyfeeelings in irc.disney.com

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Re: Sorry OpenBSD people, been a bit busy

RichardET
In reply to this post by Peter Hessler
You're right!  I am outa here!  Bye!


On Wed, Oct 9, 2013 at 7:18 AM, Peter Hessler <[hidden email]> wrote:

> This has gotten massively off topic.  Can we please let the thread end
> here?

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Re: Sorry OpenBSD people, been a bit busy

sbienddrych@googlemail.com
In reply to this post by Peter Hessler
Am I being monitored for receiving these emails?

On 10/09/13 12:18, Peter Hessler wrote:
> This has gotten massively off topic.  Can we please let the thread end here?

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Re: Sorry OpenBSD people, been a bit busy

John Long-4
On Wed, Oct 09, 2013 at 12:41:07PM +0100, [hidden email] wrote:
> Am I being monitored for receiving these emails?

No, you're being monitored for using google, stupid.

Did anybody consider the possibility Theo didn't start this thread? The
email headers looked ok at a quick glance but that didn't sound very much
like him.

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Re: Sorry OpenBSD people, been a bit busy

Jeremie Courreges-Anglas-2
John Long <[hidden email]> writes:

> On Wed, Oct 09, 2013 at 12:41:07PM +0100, [hidden email] wrote:
>> Am I being monitored for receiving these emails?
>
> No, you're being monitored for using google, stupid.

Please follow Peter's advice:

>On 10/09/13 12:18, Peter Hessler wrote:
>> This has gotten massively off topic.  Can we please let the thread end here?


> Did anybody consider the possibility Theo didn't start this thread? The
> email headers looked ok at a quick glance but that didn't sound very much
> like him.

He did.

--
jca | PGP: 0x06A11494 / 61DB D9A0 00A4 67CF 2A90  8961 6191 8FBF 06A1 1494

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Re: Sorry OpenBSD people, been a bit busy

phessler
In reply to this post by John Long-4
Please stop

--
There are people so addicted to exaggeration
that they can't tell the truth without lying.
                -- Josh Billings

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Re: Sorry OpenBSD people, been a bit busy

Boudewijn Dijkstra-2
In reply to this post by Scott McEachern-2
Op Wed, 09 Oct 2013 00:01:13 +0200 schreef Scott McEachern  
<[hidden email]>:
> On 10/08/13 16:41, Kevin Chadwick wrote:
>
> Back in the pre-WW2 days, Belgium (or was it the Netherlands?  I  
> forget.) kept detailed census and medical data on their citizens,  
> including their religious affiliation.  It was useful data for a  
> friendly government, never to be abused.

I don't know about Belgium, but certainly in the Netherlands local  
authorities were required to keep resident registration, except at that  
time not medical data.

> Then WW2 happened, and Hitler's Nazis invaded.  They found that data,  
> especially the religion part, quite useful, and we all know how that  
> turned out.

The problem was not that the data existed, the problem was that there  
wasn't a general preparedness to hide, evacuate or destroy it when  
justified.


--
(Remove the obvious prefix to reply privately.)
Gemaakt met Opera's e-mailprogramma: http://www.opera.com/mail/

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Re: Sorry OpenBSD people, been a bit busy

Eric Furman-3
Yes, the US government has a long history of abusing its Constitutional
powers. That's why we must all hide all of our personal data from
them as much as possible.
Of course Google, Bing, Facebook and all those selfies we take
are excepted.
BWAAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH morons!


On Wed, Oct 16, 2013, at 06:19 AM, Boudewijn Dijkstra wrote:

> Op Wed, 09 Oct 2013 00:01:13 +0200 schreef Scott McEachern  
> <[hidden email]>:
> > On 10/08/13 16:41, Kevin Chadwick wrote:
> >
> > Back in the pre-WW2 days, Belgium (or was it the Netherlands?  I  
> > forget.) kept detailed census and medical data on their citizens,  
> > including their religious affiliation.  It was useful data for a  
> > friendly government, never to be abused.
>
> I don't know about Belgium, but certainly in the Netherlands local  
> authorities were required to keep resident registration, except at that  
> time not medical data.
>
> > Then WW2 happened, and Hitler's Nazis invaded.  They found that data,  
> > especially the religion part, quite useful, and we all know how that  
> > turned out.
>
> The problem was not that the data existed, the problem was that there  
> wasn't a general preparedness to hide, evacuate or destroy it when  
> justified.
>
>
> --
> (Remove the obvious prefix to reply privately.)
> Gemaakt met Opera's e-mailprogramma: http://www.opera.com/mail/

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Re: Sorry OpenBSD people, been a bit busy

phessler
Please stop.

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