Seeking GUI refuge

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Seeking GUI refuge

Patrick Mc(avery
Hi Everyone

My name is Patrick, this is my first post here.

I switched my primary computer from Windows to Linux about 9 years ago.

I service scientific instruments. About 12 years ago I became aware of
the brutal conditions scientific software is sold under. I have been
slowly writing my own application to work with these instruments, it's
taken a long time because I have had to learn to code.

I had always planed on deploying on Linux.

While about 7 out of the 9 years with Linux have been good, the
graphical experience on Linux has plummeted for me. I don't really want
to send prospective customers to Linux any more. I am fearing that
Windows may end up being my only option.

It looks like OpenBSD is all about software correctness and I am sure it
will be great to work with, in a sort of "back end" way but is there a
desktop manager to work with it that can match the reliability of OpenBSD?

I tried to load Fluxbox and was disappointed with it. It had several
menubuttons for application that were not yet installed.

Any help would be very much appreciated, I feel trapped and it sounds
weird to say this but I am really a bit depressed about the idea of
heading back to Windows.

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Re: Seeking GUI refuge

Marti Martinez-3
Gnome isn't bad on OpenBSD, but depending on what you don't like about
linux, that may not live up to your expectations.

Frankly, though, as an almost life-long Windows user both personally
and professionally, if I had GUI concerns I'd seriously consider
whether OSX was a viable option rather than Windows. With that said, I
wouldn't target either platform for X11.

On Fri, May 24, 2013 at 3:48 PM, Patrick Mc(avery
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi Everyone
>
> My name is Patrick, this is my first post here.
>
> I switched my primary computer from Windows to Linux about 9 years ago.
>
> I service scientific instruments. About 12 years ago I became aware of the
> brutal conditions scientific software is sold under. I have been slowly
> writing my own application to work with these instruments, it's taken a long
> time because I have had to learn to code.
>
> I had always planed on deploying on Linux.
>
> While about 7 out of the 9 years with Linux have been good, the graphical
> experience on Linux has plummeted for me. I don't really want to send
> prospective customers to Linux any more. I am fearing that Windows may end
> up being my only option.
>
> It looks like OpenBSD is all about software correctness and I am sure it
> will be great to work with, in a sort of "back end" way but is there a
> desktop manager to work with it that can match the reliability of OpenBSD?
>
> I tried to load Fluxbox and was disappointed with it. It had several
> menubuttons for application that were not yet installed.
>
> Any help would be very much appreciated, I feel trapped and it sounds weird
> to say this but I am really a bit depressed about the idea of heading back
> to Windows.

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Re: Seeking GUI refuge

Richard Toohey
In reply to this post by Patrick Mc(avery
On 05/25/13 10:48, Patrick Mc(avery wrote:
> Hi Everyone
> [chop]
> While about 7 out of the 9 years with Linux have been good, the
> graphical experience on Linux has plummeted for me. I don't really
> want to send prospective customers to Linux any more. I am fearing
> that Windows may end up being my only option.
Which Windows GUI is that?

Last version I liked was Windows 2000; XP was OK, 7 a disaster, and
sounds like Microsoft are backpedaling on Windows 8 and the tile-based
approach.

Not sure there is any perfect GUI - if you are looking for something
exactly like Windows, then you are going to have Windows (but as I say,
"Windows" is a moving target - you talking about XP, 7 or 8, or "Blue"?)

KDE 4 and Gnome 3 have been big jumps from their previous versions.

I've been through KDE 3.5.10 to Gnome 3 to cwm, currently on XFCE which
suits me personally.

If you get put off by a few links to non-installed applications, then
don't think much is going to help you.

OS X looks nice, but there are a few frustrations in there, too. And if
your customers prefer the Windows experience, then it's no help - it's
not Windows, it is different.

Anyway, everything is meant to be on the cloud, Web 2.0 (or is it 3.0),
iOS, Android, etc. so no-one cares about the desktop anymore. Yeah, right!

Good luck!

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Re: Seeking GUI refuge

bofh-6
In reply to this post by Marti Martinez-3
I have been an OpenBSD user since 2.3 or 2.4 and I agree.  If you want a pretty GUI, go with OS X.

There is another route.  Have your collectors be OpenBSD.  Write a pretty GUI in Objective C for iOS.

Sent from my magical iPhone 7

On May 24, 2013, at 6:59 PM, Marti Martinez <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Gnome isn't bad on OpenBSD, but depending on what you don't like about
> linux, that may not live up to your expectations.
>
> Frankly, though, as an almost life-long Windows user both personally
> and professionally, if I had GUI concerns I'd seriously consider
> whether OSX was a viable option rather than Windows. With that said, I
> wouldn't target either platform for X11.
>
> On Fri, May 24, 2013 at 3:48 PM, Patrick Mc(avery
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Hi Everyone
>>
>> My name is Patrick, this is my first post here.
>>
>> I switched my primary computer from Windows to Linux about 9 years ago.
>>
>> I service scientific instruments. About 12 years ago I became aware of the
>> brutal conditions scientific software is sold under. I have been slowly
>> writing my own application to work with these instruments, it's taken a long
>> time because I have had to learn to code.
>>
>> I had always planed on deploying on Linux.
>>
>> While about 7 out of the 9 years with Linux have been good, the graphical
>> experience on Linux has plummeted for me. I don't really want to send
>> prospective customers to Linux any more. I am fearing that Windows may end
>> up being my only option.
>>
>> It looks like OpenBSD is all about software correctness and I am sure it
>> will be great to work with, in a sort of "back end" way but is there a
>> desktop manager to work with it that can match the reliability of OpenBSD?
>>
>> I tried to load Fluxbox and was disappointed with it. It had several
>> menubuttons for application that were not yet installed.
>>
>> Any help would be very much appreciated, I feel trapped and it sounds weird
>> to say this but I am really a bit depressed about the idea of heading back
>> to Windows.

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Re: Seeking GUI refuge

Chris Bennett
In reply to this post by Patrick Mc(avery
I started out using KDE while I was leaving Windows behind.
I now hate the KDE "experience", but I constantly have to help my Dad
with it.
I am constantly bugged by desperate Windows users looking for help but
unable to make that dreadful jump into a free and secure operating
system like OpenBSD, even when I offer them a USB drive to check it out.

What exactly are you looking for when you say a "GUI"?
That really covers a huge field.
What does it need to cover?

I use spectrwm. Fits me perfectly. Fast and low memory.

But it might not be right for you.
Try a bunch of different window managers.
There are a lot of crappy ones. A few good ones.

Chris Bennett

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Re: Seeking GUI refuge

Patrick Mc(avery
In reply to this post by Marti Martinez-3
Hi Marti

Thanks so much for your rapid and helpful response.

I will still consider Mac OSX but it's just that it is the worst of two
worlds for me. Labs use Windows only. If I ship something that works on
windows, I don't have to swim against the current with this topic. I am
willing to swim for free software but OSX is not free either :(
-Patrick











On 13-05-24 06:59 PM, Marti Martinez wrote:

> Gnome isn't bad on OpenBSD, but depending on what you don't like about
> linux, that may not live up to your expectations.
>
> Frankly, though, as an almost life-long Windows user both personally
> and professionally, if I had GUI concerns I'd seriously consider
> whether OSX was a viable option rather than Windows. With that said, I
> wouldn't target either platform for X11.
>
> On Fri, May 24, 2013 at 3:48 PM, Patrick Mc(avery
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Hi Everyone
>>
>> My name is Patrick, this is my first post here.
>>
>> I switched my primary computer from Windows to Linux about 9 years ago.
>>
>> I service scientific instruments. About 12 years ago I became aware of the
>> brutal conditions scientific software is sold under. I have been slowly
>> writing my own application to work with these instruments, it's taken a long
>> time because I have had to learn to code.
>>
>> I had always planed on deploying on Linux.
>>
>> While about 7 out of the 9 years with Linux have been good, the graphical
>> experience on Linux has plummeted for me. I don't really want to send
>> prospective customers to Linux any more. I am fearing that Windows may end
>> up being my only option.
>>
>> It looks like OpenBSD is all about software correctness and I am sure it
>> will be great to work with, in a sort of "back end" way but is there a
>> desktop manager to work with it that can match the reliability of OpenBSD?
>>
>> I tried to load Fluxbox and was disappointed with it. It had several
>> menubuttons for application that were not yet installed.
>>
>> Any help would be very much appreciated, I feel trapped and it sounds weird
>> to say this but I am really a bit depressed about the idea of heading back
>> to Windows.

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Re: Seeking GUI refuge

Patrick Mc(avery
In reply to this post by Richard Toohey
Hi Richard

Actually I am not looking for a Windows clone, just a software-correct
GUI. I don't need much too. I need text input widgets and a way to
display graphs. The graphs could be grammatically created images that
are independent of the window manager and widget toolkit but simply
presented to the user.

XFCE was okay on Linux but I still had some issues. XFCE on Fedora was a
train wreck.

It was really quite a lot of links to non-installed programs and it's
not about what I can sort though, it's that I want to present an open
source OS to people who have never used one. It has to follow the law of
least astonishment.

Hi good0Th

I don't really need prettiness but thanks for the post.

-Patrick



On 13-05-24 07:14 PM, Richard Toohey wrote:

> On 05/25/13 10:48, Patrick Mc(avery wrote:
>> Hi Everyone
>> [chop]
>> While about 7 out of the 9 years with Linux have been good, the
>> graphical experience on Linux has plummeted for me. I don't really
>> want to send prospective customers to Linux any more. I am fearing
>> that Windows may end up being my only option.
> Which Windows GUI is that?
>
> Last version I liked was Windows 2000; XP was OK, 7 a disaster, and
> sounds like Microsoft are backpedaling on Windows 8 and the tile-based
> approach.
>
> Not sure there is any perfect GUI - if you are looking for something
> exactly like Windows, then you are going to have Windows (but as I say,
> "Windows" is a moving target - you talking about XP, 7 or 8, or "Blue"?)
>
> KDE 4 and Gnome 3 have been big jumps from their previous versions.
>
> I've been through KDE 3.5.10 to Gnome 3 to cwm, currently on XFCE which
> suits me personally.
>
> If you get put off by a few links to non-installed applications, then
> don't think much is going to help you.
>
> OS X looks nice, but there are a few frustrations in there, too. And if
> your customers prefer the Windows experience, then it's no help - it's
> not Windows, it is different.
>
> Anyway, everything is meant to be on the cloud, Web 2.0 (or is it 3.0),
> iOS, Android, etc. so no-one cares about the desktop anymore. Yeah, right!
>
> Good luck!

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Re: Seeking GUI refuge

Patrick Mc(avery
In reply to this post by Chris Bennett
Hi Chris

Actually spectrwm looks very cool. I really like ncurses based
interfaces but I need to display images too. I could see a hybrid
application fitting into this window manger.




On 13-05-24 07:29 PM, Chris Bennett wrote:

> I started out using KDE while I was leaving Windows behind.
> I now hate the KDE "experience", but I constantly have to help my Dad
> with it.
> I am constantly bugged by desperate Windows users looking for help but
> unable to make that dreadful jump into a free and secure operating
> system like OpenBSD, even when I offer them a USB drive to check it out.
>
> What exactly are you looking for when you say a "GUI"?
> That really covers a huge field.
> What does it need to cover?
>
> I use spectrwm. Fits me perfectly. Fast and low memory.
>
> But it might not be right for you.
> Try a bunch of different window managers.
> There are a lot of crappy ones. A few good ones.
>
> Chris Bennett

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Re: Seeking GUI refuge

ag@gmail
In reply to this post by Patrick Mc(avery
Have you considered a thought that XFCE may be easily customizable? The non-existing program entries can be removed and the UI customized to your liking?

From what you describe it doesn't seem you require pretty graphics. I would suggest trying out the light window managers. Customizing a window manager to your liking is pretty straightforward with the light variants (not gnome and kde - these are SAKs - Swiss Army Knives). You may possibly find one that exactly matches the job...

-ag

--
sent via 100% recycled electrons from my mobile command center.

On May 24, 2013, at 5:39 PM, "Patrick Mc(avery" <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi Marti
>
> Thanks so much for your rapid and helpful response.
>
> I will still consider Mac OSX but it's just that it is the worst of two worlds for me. Labs use Windows only. If I ship something that works on windows, I don't have to swim against the current with this topic. I am willing to swim for free software but OSX is not free either :(
> -Patrick
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On 13-05-24 06:59 PM, Marti Martinez wrote:
>> Gnome isn't bad on OpenBSD, but depending on what you don't like about
>> linux, that may not live up to your expectations.
>>
>> Frankly, though, as an almost life-long Windows user both personally
>> and professionally, if I had GUI concerns I'd seriously consider
>> whether OSX was a viable option rather than Windows. With that said, I
>> wouldn't target either platform for X11.
>>
>> On Fri, May 24, 2013 at 3:48 PM, Patrick Mc(avery
>> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> Hi Everyone
>>>
>>> My name is Patrick, this is my first post here.
>>>
>>> I switched my primary computer from Windows to Linux about 9 years ago.
>>>
>>> I service scientific instruments. About 12 years ago I became aware of the
>>> brutal conditions scientific software is sold under. I have been slowly
>>> writing my own application to work with these instruments, it's taken a long
>>> time because I have had to learn to code.
>>>
>>> I had always planed on deploying on Linux.
>>>
>>> While about 7 out of the 9 years with Linux have been good, the graphical
>>> experience on Linux has plummeted for me. I don't really want to send
>>> prospective customers to Linux any more. I am fearing that Windows may end
>>> up being my only option.
>>>
>>> It looks like OpenBSD is all about software correctness and I am sure it
>>> will be great to work with, in a sort of "back end" way but is there a
>>> desktop manager to work with it that can match the reliability of OpenBSD?
>>>
>>> I tried to load Fluxbox and was disappointed with it. It had several
>>> menubuttons for application that were not yet installed.
>>>
>>> Any help would be very much appreciated, I feel trapped and it sounds weird
>>> to say this but I am really a bit depressed about the idea of heading back
>>> to Windows.

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Re: Seeking GUI refuge

bofh-6
Have you considered HTML5 + CSS?

Seriously.

On Friday, May 24, 2013, ag@gmail wrote:

> Have you considered a thought that XFCE may be easily customizable? The
> non-existing program entries can be removed and the UI customized to your
> liking?
>
> From what you describe it doesn't seem you require pretty graphics. I
> would suggest trying out the light window managers. Customizing a window
> manager to your liking is pretty straightforward with the light variants
> (not gnome and kde - these are SAKs - Swiss Army Knives). You may possibly
> find one that exactly matches the job...
>
> -ag
>
> --
> sent via 100% recycled electrons from my mobile command center.
>
> On May 24, 2013, at 5:39 PM, "Patrick Mc(avery" <
> [hidden email] <javascript:;>> wrote:
>
> > Hi Marti
> >
> > Thanks so much for your rapid and helpful response.
> >
> > I will still consider Mac OSX but it's just that it is the worst of two
> worlds for me. Labs use Windows only. If I ship something that works on
> windows, I don't have to swim against the current with this topic. I am
> willing to swim for free software but OSX is not free either :(
> > -Patrick
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On 13-05-24 06:59 PM, Marti Martinez wrote:
> >> Gnome isn't bad on OpenBSD, but depending on what you don't like about
> >> linux, that may not live up to your expectations.
> >>
> >> Frankly, though, as an almost life-long Windows user both personally
> >> and professionally, if I had GUI concerns I'd seriously consider
> >> whether OSX was a viable option rather than Windows. With that said, I
> >> wouldn't target either platform for X11.
> >>
> >> On Fri, May 24, 2013 at 3:48 PM, Patrick Mc(avery
> >> <[hidden email] <javascript:;>> wrote:
> >>> Hi Everyone
> >>>
> >>> My name is Patrick, this is my first post here.
> >>>
> >>> I switched my primary computer from Windows to Linux about 9 years ago.
> >>>
> >>> I service scientific instruments. About 12 years ago I became aware of
> the
> >>> brutal conditions scientific software is sold under. I have been slowly
> >>> writing my own application to work with these instruments, it's taken
> a long
> >>> time because I have had to learn to code.
> >>>
> >>> I had always planed on deploying on Linux.
> >>>
> >>> While about 7 out of the 9 years with Linux have been good, the
> graphical
> >>> experience on Linux has plummeted for me. I don't really want to send
> >>> prospective customers to Linux any more. I am fearing that Windows may
> end
> >>> up being my only option.
> >>>
> >>> It looks like OpenBSD is all about software correctness and I am sure
> it
> >>> will be great to work with, in a sort of "back end" way but is there a
> >>> desktop manager to work with it that can match the reliability of
> OpenBSD?
> >>>
> >>> I tried to load Fluxbox and was disappointed with it. It had several
> >>> menubuttons for application that were not yet installed.
> >>>
> >>> Any help would be very much appreciated, I feel trapped and it sounds
> weird
> >>> to say this but I am really a bit depressed about the idea of heading
> back
> >>> to Windows.
>
>

--
http://www.glumbert.com/media/shift
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tGvHNNOLnCk
"This officer's men seem to follow him merely out of idle curiosity."  --
Sandhurst officer cadet evaluation.
"Securing an environment of Windows platforms from abuse - external or
internal - is akin to trying to install sprinklers in a fireworks factory
where smoking on the job is permitted."  -- Gene Spafford
learn french:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=30v_g83VHK4

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Re: Seeking GUI refuge

Nicolai-8
In reply to this post by Patrick Mc(avery
On Fri, May 24, 2013 at 06:48:05PM -0400, Patrick Mc(avery wrote:

> I tried to load Fluxbox and was disappointed with it. It had several
> menubuttons for application that were not yet installed.

That's true.  Such window managers are user-controllable, unlike what
you typically find in Linux.  Just a hunch: the excessive number of
applications listed is meant to show possibilities and/or prompt the
user to configure fluxbox.  You can edit the appropriate file

 /usr/local/share/fluxbox/menu

to your own needs.  The syntax is clean and simple.  Have a look!

> Any help would be very much appreciated, I feel trapped and it sounds
> weird to say this but I am really a bit depressed about the idea of
> heading back to Windows.

Personally if I had to use Windows I would just quit using computers.
Don't jump!

Nicolai

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Re: Seeking GUI refuge

Martijn van Duren
In reply to this post by Patrick Mc(avery
Hi Patrick,

On 05/25/13 02:39, Patrick Mc(avery wrote:
> Hi Richard
>
> Actually I am not looking for a Windows clone, just a software-correct
> GUI. I don't need much too. I need text input widgets and a way to
> display graphs. The graphs could be grammatically created images that
> are independent of the window manager and widget toolkit but simply
> presented to the user.

I'm no expert, but based on this I'd say you're looking for a GUI
framework, that is also build for code correctness, to write your
application in. In that case you might look into the EFL[1][2]
(Enlightenment Foundation Libraries). I haven't looked at the API
myself, but from what I've read about it it's supposed to be
(relatively) lightweight, cross-platform, modular, supports the more
standardized ways of desktop communication, and is BSD licensed.
Furthermore I have been using E17 (Enlightenment 17 desktop environment)
for a while and I must say that I think it's one of the more visually
calm and easy environments (but that's pure taste of course). It does
run quite smoothly on my (old) OpenBSD laptop. Although I tested far
from all the features, since I prefer to spent most of my time on the
terminal (it must be a glitch of sort of mine).

It's not the most widely used framework, so it might give you some extra
bloat and inconsistency in look for applications written in other
frameworks, like GTK, Qt. The bloat shouldn't be any problem on modern
systems and the inconsistency in looks are up to you to decide if that
annoys you.

>
> XFCE was okay on Linux but I still had some issues. XFCE on Fedora was a
> train wreck.
>
> It was really quite a lot of links to non-installed programs and it's
> not about what I can sort though, it's that I want to present an open
> source OS to people who have never used one. It has to follow the law of
> least astonishment.
>
> Hi good0Th
>
> I don't really need prettiness but thanks for the post.
>
> -Patrick
>
>
>
> On 13-05-24 07:14 PM, Richard Toohey wrote:
>> On 05/25/13 10:48, Patrick Mc(avery wrote:
>>> Hi Everyone
>>> [chop]
>>> While about 7 out of the 9 years with Linux have been good, the
>>> graphical experience on Linux has plummeted for me. I don't really
>>> want to send prospective customers to Linux any more. I am fearing
>>> that Windows may end up being my only option.
>> Which Windows GUI is that?
>>
>> Last version I liked was Windows 2000; XP was OK, 7 a disaster, and
>> sounds like Microsoft are backpedaling on Windows 8 and the tile-based
>> approach.
>>
>> Not sure there is any perfect GUI - if you are looking for something
>> exactly like Windows, then you are going to have Windows (but as I say,
>> "Windows" is a moving target - you talking about XP, 7 or 8, or "Blue"?)
>>
>> KDE 4 and Gnome 3 have been big jumps from their previous versions.
>>
>> I've been through KDE 3.5.10 to Gnome 3 to cwm, currently on XFCE which
>> suits me personally.
>>
>> If you get put off by a few links to non-installed applications, then
>> don't think much is going to help you.
>>
>> OS X looks nice, but there are a few frustrations in there, too. And if
>> your customers prefer the Windows experience, then it's no help - it's
>> not Windows, it is different.
>>
>> Anyway, everything is meant to be on the cloud, Web 2.0 (or is it 3.0),
>> iOS, Android, etc. so no-one cares about the desktop anymore. Yeah,
>> right!
>>
>> Good luck!
>

Sincerely,

Martijn van Duren

[1] http://www.enlightenment.org/
[2] http://openports.se/x11/e17

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Re: Seeking GUI refuge

Jan Stary
In reply to this post by Patrick Mc(avery
On May 24 18:48:05, [hidden email] wrote:
> While about 7 out of the 9 years with Linux have been good, the
> graphical experience on Linux has plummeted for me. I don't really
> want to send prospective customers to Linux any more. I am fearing
> that Windows may end up being my only option.
>
> It looks like OpenBSD is all about software correctness and I am
> sure it will be great to work with, in a sort of "back end" way but
> is there a desktop manager to work with it that can match the
> reliability of OpenBSD?

There is cwm(1) in the base install,
which just might have everything you need.

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Re: Seeking GUI refuge

zz-8
In reply to this post by Patrick Mc(avery
On Fri, May 24, 2013 at 06:48:05PM -0400, Patrick Mc(avery wrote:
> I tried to load Fluxbox and was disappointed with it. It had several
> menubuttons for application that were not yet installed.

There is more than just Fluxbox out there. That's UNIX world, it
is up to you and you have plenty of choices.

Bloatware like Gnome, XFCE, KDE and other crap is available through ports.

Minimalistic versions like fvwm, cwm are waiting to be configured to meet
your special needs. And in fact, if you cut through the clutter of options
and manpages, you might be much more satisfied than using some windows
version where you just can tick an option on or off.


Random points where you can find further information:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Window_manager
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X_window_manager
http://xwinman.org/

--
[hidden email]
SDF Public Access UNIX System - http://sdf.org

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Re: Seeking GUI refuge

Riccardo Mottola
In reply to this post by Patrick Mc(avery
Hi,

I am happy to see fellow-thinkers. GUIs are moving to a disaster.
Windows 2000 was usable, heck even Windows 7, once its features are
tuned, is a good and usable OS! But have you seen Windows 8? It is pure
crap for desktop use.
GNOME became a monstrum.. and Mac was nice... years ago. The latest
version are full of stupid things, incoherencies.

When I used scientific stuff a couple of years ago, software was often
written with a toolkit on Unix that oculd run on Solaris and Linux osing
Motif and which gave  windows-like calls and appearance, so that it
oculd exist on windows too. It was commercial though, it wasn't wxWidgets


Let me give my *personal* view.  The only thing I like is GNUstep. It
runs on BSDs, Linux and Solaris. It is nice to code GUIs in and being
objective-c you know that porting to Mac is easy and even iOS could be
not so bad. It works on windows, but you get compromises about the
looks, but it usually works, I ported successfully lots of programs there.


Patrick Mc(avery wrote:

> Hi Everyone
>
>
> It looks like OpenBSD is all about software correctness and I am sure
> it will be great to work with, in a sort of "back end" way but is
> there a desktop manager to work with it that can match the reliability
> of OpenBSD?
>
> I tried to load Fluxbox and was disappointed with it. It had several
> menubuttons for application that were not yet installed.
>
That is perhaps more a question about the package itself which needs to
be tuned. If you like it, if you like the toolkit to program with, if it
is stable on the operating system of your choice. Tuning the menu
entries is really the last step.

GNUstep packages on OpenBSD are actively maintained and Sebastian is
active and responds to suggesions.
> Any help would be very much appreciated, I feel trapped and it sounds
> weird to say this but I am really a bit depressed about the idea of
> heading back to Windows.
>
I hope not. Depends on your need. Writing input and output panels with
textboxes and buttons is really fun and nice in GNUstep. I am writing a
proprietary app with it tha tI cannot share which does that: monitoring,
launching tasks.. nice and usable GUI.

Since you mention data, I am working on a simple charing and plotting
toolkit for GNUstep to display, currently, mostly static data (=it is
not yet optimized for fast-paced changes, but in future releases I know
where I can squeeze speed out, but getting a 0.1 release is already
proving a feat).

Look if you like in these two screenshots (it is just a demo app). You
can also see that it works on Mac and how it compares.

http://multixden.blogspot.it/2011/09/oresme-plotting-for-gnustep.html
http://multixden.blogspot.it/2011/09/oresmekit-plotting-two-functions.html

Right now I am concentrating on Charts instead of plots, because I need
that for an application, I can share screenshot s if you are interested.

A general look of the environment (here on FreeBSD, but I assure that on
OpenBSD it works fine):

http://multixden.blogspot.it/2013/03/gnustep-on-freebsd.html

Riccardo

[demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type text/x-vcard which had a name of riccardo_mottola.vcf]

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Re: Seeking GUI refuge

Dmitrij D. Czarkoff-2
In reply to this post by Patrick Mc(avery
On Sat, May 25, 2013 at 12:48 AM, Patrick Mc(avery
<[hidden email]> wrote:
> I tried to load Fluxbox and was disappointed with it. It had several
> menubuttons for application that were not yet installed.

On Sat, May 25, 2013 at 2:39 AM, Patrick Mc(avery
<[hidden email]> wrote:
> It was really quite a lot of links to non-installed programs and it's not
> about what I can sort though, it's that I want to present an open source OS
> to people who have never used one.

You may supply your client with a configuration script or set of
patches for config files. This might eventually be easier then wasting
time on searching for an OS or linux distro with sane defaults.

On Sat, May 25, 2013 at 2:39 AM, Patrick Mc(avery
<[hidden email]> wrote:
> XFCE was okay on Linux but I still had some issues. XFCE on Fedora was a
> train wreck.

In my experience the desktop environments like GNOME, KDE, XFCE, LXDE,
etc are always train wrecks unless you take your time to properly
configure them.

P.S.:

On Sat, May 25, 2013 at 2:39 AM, Patrick Mc(avery
<[hidden email]> wrote:
> Actually I am not looking for a Windows clone, just a software-correct GUI.
<...>
> It has to follow the law of least astonishment.

There is a hidden contradiction here: if you want a smooth transition
for your clients, most likely you want Windows clone as a starting
point.

--
Dmitrij D. Czarkoff

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Re: Seeking GUI refuge

Patrick Mc(avery
In reply to this post by Riccardo Mottola
Hi Ricardo

I am curious which scientific instrumentation application that was? I
have heard about the odd one that will run on Mac but it's an industry
99% dominated by Windoze.

I tried GNUstep and wrote it off because it was so black it looked like
crap. My approach has changed a lot since then though. I will give it
another try. Even if I can't get it to look great, I think I will be
doing a good thing by trying to sell customers on the idea of something
that works right but looks like crap, rather the conventionally approach
which is the reverse.



On 13-05-25 07:22 AM, Riccardo Mottola wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I am happy to see fellow-thinkers. GUIs are moving to a disaster.
> Windows 2000 was usable, heck even Windows 7, once its features are
> tuned, is a good and usable OS! But have you seen Windows 8? It is pure
> crap for desktop use.
> GNOME became a monstrum.. and Mac was nice... years ago. The latest
> version are full of stupid things, incoherencies.
>
> When I used scientific stuff a couple of years ago, software was often
> written with a toolkit on Unix that oculd run on Solaris and Linux osing
> Motif and which gave  windows-like calls and appearance, so that it
> oculd exist on windows too. It was commercial though, it wasn't wxWidgets
>
>
> Let me give my *personal* view.  The only thing I like is GNUstep. It
> runs on BSDs, Linux and Solaris. It is nice to code GUIs in and being
> objective-c you know that porting to Mac is easy and even iOS could be
> not so bad. It works on windows, but you get compromises about the
> looks, but it usually works, I ported successfully lots of programs there.
>
>
> Patrick Mc(avery wrote:
>> Hi Everyone
>>
>>
>> It looks like OpenBSD is all about software correctness and I am sure
>> it will be great to work with, in a sort of "back end" way but is
>> there a desktop manager to work with it that can match the reliability
>> of OpenBSD?
>>
>> I tried to load Fluxbox and was disappointed with it. It had several
>> menubuttons for application that were not yet installed.
>>
> That is perhaps more a question about the package itself which needs to
> be tuned. If you like it, if you like the toolkit to program with, if it
> is stable on the operating system of your choice. Tuning the menu
> entries is really the last step.
>
> GNUstep packages on OpenBSD are actively maintained and Sebastian is
> active and responds to suggesions.
>> Any help would be very much appreciated, I feel trapped and it sounds
>> weird to say this but I am really a bit depressed about the idea of
>> heading back to Windows.
>>
> I hope not. Depends on your need. Writing input and output panels with
> textboxes and buttons is really fun and nice in GNUstep. I am writing a
> proprietary app with it tha tI cannot share which does that: monitoring,
> launching tasks.. nice and usable GUI.
>
> Since you mention data, I am working on a simple charing and plotting
> toolkit for GNUstep to display, currently, mostly static data (=it is
> not yet optimized for fast-paced changes, but in future releases I know
> where I can squeeze speed out, but getting a 0.1 release is already
> proving a feat).
>
> Look if you like in these two screenshots (it is just a demo app). You
> can also see that it works on Mac and how it compares.
>
> http://multixden.blogspot.it/2011/09/oresme-plotting-for-gnustep.html
> http://multixden.blogspot.it/2011/09/oresmekit-plotting-two-functions.html
>
> Right now I am concentrating on Charts instead of plots, because I need
> that for an application, I can share screenshot s if you are interested.
>
> A general look of the environment (here on FreeBSD, but I assure that on
> OpenBSD it works fine):
>
> http://multixden.blogspot.it/2013/03/gnustep-on-freebsd.html
>
> Riccardo
>
> [demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type text/x-vcard which had a name of riccardo_mottola.vcf]

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Re: Seeking GUI refuge

Patrick Mc(avery
In reply to this post by Jan Stary
Hi Jan

Thanks for mentioning this, if it ships with Open BSD then it's going to
be correct. It might just be a matter of making it a bit pretty.



On 13-05-25 03:56 AM, Jan Stary wrote:

> On May 24 18:48:05, [hidden email] wrote:
>> While about 7 out of the 9 years with Linux have been good, the
>> graphical experience on Linux has plummeted for me. I don't really
>> want to send prospective customers to Linux any more. I am fearing
>> that Windows may end up being my only option.
>>
>> It looks like OpenBSD is all about software correctness and I am
>> sure it will be great to work with, in a sort of "back end" way but
>> is there a desktop manager to work with it that can match the
>> reliability of OpenBSD?
>
> There is cwm(1) in the base install,
> which just might have everything you need.

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Re: Seeking GUI refuge

Patrick Mc(avery
In reply to this post by Martijn van Duren
Hi Martijn

Thanks for bringing up an excellent point. I also need to figure out
what widget toolkit to use. I have used WXPython, GTK with about 6 or 7
bindings, QT, TK and FLTK in the past.

Many bindings are nightmares and some like QT are so huge that it's like
assembling pre-fabricated mini applications into one.

I wrote off EFL as a mobile only thing, I will give it another look
along with it's accompanying window manager.

Thanks again



On 13-05-25 02:59 AM, Martijn van Duren wrote:

> Hi Patrick,
>
> On 05/25/13 02:39, Patrick Mc(avery wrote:
>> Hi Richard
>>
>> Actually I am not looking for a Windows clone, just a software-correct
>> GUI. I don't need much too. I need text input widgets and a way to
>> display graphs. The graphs could be grammatically created images that
>> are independent of the window manager and widget toolkit but simply
>> presented to the user.
>
> I'm no expert, but based on this I'd say you're looking for a GUI
> framework, that is also build for code correctness, to write your
> application in. In that case you might look into the EFL[1][2]
> (Enlightenment Foundation Libraries). I haven't looked at the API
> myself, but from what I've read about it it's supposed to be
> (relatively) lightweight, cross-platform, modular, supports the more
> standardized ways of desktop communication, and is BSD licensed.
> Furthermore I have been using E17 (Enlightenment 17 desktop environment)
> for a while and I must say that I think it's one of the more visually
> calm and easy environments (but that's pure taste of course). It does
> run quite smoothly on my (old) OpenBSD laptop. Although I tested far
> from all the features, since I prefer to spent most of my time on the
> terminal (it must be a glitch of sort of mine).
>
> It's not the most widely used framework, so it might give you some extra
> bloat and inconsistency in look for applications written in other
> frameworks, like GTK, Qt. The bloat shouldn't be any problem on modern
> systems and the inconsistency in looks are up to you to decide if that
> annoys you.
>
>>
>> XFCE was okay on Linux but I still had some issues. XFCE on Fedora was a
>> train wreck.
>>
>> It was really quite a lot of links to non-installed programs and it's
>> not about what I can sort though, it's that I want to present an open
>> source OS to people who have never used one. It has to follow the law of
>> least astonishment.
>>
>> Hi good0Th
>>
>> I don't really need prettiness but thanks for the post.
>>
>> -Patrick
>>
>>
>>
>> On 13-05-24 07:14 PM, Richard Toohey wrote:
>>> On 05/25/13 10:48, Patrick Mc(avery wrote:
>>>> Hi Everyone
>>>> [chop]
>>>> While about 7 out of the 9 years with Linux have been good, the
>>>> graphical experience on Linux has plummeted for me. I don't really
>>>> want to send prospective customers to Linux any more. I am fearing
>>>> that Windows may end up being my only option.
>>> Which Windows GUI is that?
>>>
>>> Last version I liked was Windows 2000; XP was OK, 7 a disaster, and
>>> sounds like Microsoft are backpedaling on Windows 8 and the tile-based
>>> approach.
>>>
>>> Not sure there is any perfect GUI - if you are looking for something
>>> exactly like Windows, then you are going to have Windows (but as I say,
>>> "Windows" is a moving target - you talking about XP, 7 or 8, or "Blue"?)
>>>
>>> KDE 4 and Gnome 3 have been big jumps from their previous versions.
>>>
>>> I've been through KDE 3.5.10 to Gnome 3 to cwm, currently on XFCE which
>>> suits me personally.
>>>
>>> If you get put off by a few links to non-installed applications, then
>>> don't think much is going to help you.
>>>
>>> OS X looks nice, but there are a few frustrations in there, too. And if
>>> your customers prefer the Windows experience, then it's no help - it's
>>> not Windows, it is different.
>>>
>>> Anyway, everything is meant to be on the cloud, Web 2.0 (or is it 3.0),
>>> iOS, Android, etc. so no-one cares about the desktop anymore. Yeah,
>>> right!
>>>
>>> Good luck!
>>
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Martijn van Duren
>
> [1] http://www.enlightenment.org/
> [2] http://openports.se/x11/e17

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Re: Seeking GUI refuge

Patrick Mc(avery
In reply to this post by bofh-6
Hi Bofh

Thanks for bringing this up.

I wrote off the idea of using a web based solution a long time ago.
However things have changed a lot since then. I could deploy the
application on a Raspberry PI or Olimex board and people could access it
from Windows machines via their internal network.

Something to seriously consider




On 13-05-24 09:39 PM, bofh wrote:

> Have you considered HTML5 + CSS?
>
> Seriously.
>
> On Friday, May 24, 2013, ag@gmail wrote:
>
>> Have you considered a thought that XFCE may be easily customizable? The
>> non-existing program entries can be removed and the UI customized to your
>> liking?
>>
>>  From what you describe it doesn't seem you require pretty graphics. I
>> would suggest trying out the light window managers. Customizing a window
>> manager to your liking is pretty straightforward with the light variants
>> (not gnome and kde - these are SAKs - Swiss Army Knives). You may possibly
>> find one that exactly matches the job...
>>
>> -ag
>>
>> --
>> sent via 100% recycled electrons from my mobile command center.
>>
>> On May 24, 2013, at 5:39 PM, "Patrick Mc(avery" <
>> [hidden email] <javascript:;>> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Marti
>>>
>>> Thanks so much for your rapid and helpful response.
>>>
>>> I will still consider Mac OSX but it's just that it is the worst of two
>> worlds for me. Labs use Windows only. If I ship something that works on
>> windows, I don't have to swim against the current with this topic. I am
>> willing to swim for free software but OSX is not free either :(
>>> -Patrick
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 13-05-24 06:59 PM, Marti Martinez wrote:
>>>> Gnome isn't bad on OpenBSD, but depending on what you don't like about
>>>> linux, that may not live up to your expectations.
>>>>
>>>> Frankly, though, as an almost life-long Windows user both personally
>>>> and professionally, if I had GUI concerns I'd seriously consider
>>>> whether OSX was a viable option rather than Windows. With that said, I
>>>> wouldn't target either platform for X11.
>>>>
>>>> On Fri, May 24, 2013 at 3:48 PM, Patrick Mc(avery
>>>> <[hidden email] <javascript:;>> wrote:
>>>>> Hi Everyone
>>>>>
>>>>> My name is Patrick, this is my first post here.
>>>>>
>>>>> I switched my primary computer from Windows to Linux about 9 years ago.
>>>>>
>>>>> I service scientific instruments. About 12 years ago I became aware of
>> the
>>>>> brutal conditions scientific software is sold under. I have been slowly
>>>>> writing my own application to work with these instruments, it's taken
>> a long
>>>>> time because I have had to learn to code.
>>>>>
>>>>> I had always planed on deploying on Linux.
>>>>>
>>>>> While about 7 out of the 9 years with Linux have been good, the
>> graphical
>>>>> experience on Linux has plummeted for me. I don't really want to send
>>>>> prospective customers to Linux any more. I am fearing that Windows may
>> end
>>>>> up being my only option.
>>>>>
>>>>> It looks like OpenBSD is all about software correctness and I am sure
>> it
>>>>> will be great to work with, in a sort of "back end" way but is there a
>>>>> desktop manager to work with it that can match the reliability of
>> OpenBSD?
>>>>>
>>>>> I tried to load Fluxbox and was disappointed with it. It had several
>>>>> menubuttons for application that were not yet installed.
>>>>>
>>>>> Any help would be very much appreciated, I feel trapped and it sounds
>> weird
>>>>> to say this but I am really a bit depressed about the idea of heading
>> back
>>>>> to Windows.

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