SSI

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SSI

Brian Empson
Hello OpenBSD world,

Has there been/are there plan to include some SSI functionality for BSD? I've looked into Linux for this and the problem stems from the fact that the kernel has to be patched with the code to perform this functionality. The linux kernel, being a separate entity from the rest of the system, makes it difficult to keep an SSI system up to date kernel wise. BSD seems to develop the kernel and utilities as one, lending itself to easier integration of these features, perhaps? I'd be willing to donate money to the project to see functionality like this implemented! Thoughts? Is there anyone I can speak to about funding a sub project for OpenBSD SSI? Or is it not even being considered?

Thanks,
Brian

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Re: SSI

Otto Moerbeek
On Thu, Sep 27, 2012 at 01:04:23PM -0700, Brian Empson wrote:

> Hello OpenBSD world,
>
> Has there been/are there plan to include some SSI functionality for BSD? I've looked into Linux for this and the problem stems from the fact that the kernel has to be patched with the code to perform this functionality. The linux kernel, being a separate entity from the rest of the system, makes it difficult to keep an SSI system up to date kernel wise. BSD seems to develop the kernel and utilities as one, lending itself to easier integration of these features, perhaps? I'd be willing to donate money to the project to see functionality like this implemented! Thoughts? Is there anyone I can speak to about funding a sub project for OpenBSD SSI? Or is it not even being considered?
>
> Thanks,
> Brian

For starters, what is SSI? As many TLAs go, it can mean multiple
things. I won't try to guess what you want.

        -Otto

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Re: SSI

Simon Perreault-2
In reply to this post by Brian Empson
Le 2012-09-27 16:04, Brian Empson a écrit :
> Has there been/are there plan to include some SSI functionality for BSD?

Try mod_include.

Doc here: http://httpd.apache.org/docs/1.3/mod/mod_include.html

Simon

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Re: SSI

Brian Empson
In reply to this post by Otto Moerbeek
The SSI I'm talking about would be defined as "making multiple separate
machines appear as one single system with one single process space, a shared
root filesystem, and shared virtual IP". Shared memory doesn't seem that
important, except for maybe moving a process from one machine to another.
Thanks,
Brian




________________________________
 From: Otto Moerbeek
<[hidden email]>
To: Brian Empson <[hidden email]>
Cc:
"[hidden email]" <[hidden email]>
Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2012 4:38
PM
Subject: Re: SSI
 
On Thu, Sep 27, 2012 at 01:04:23PM -0700, Brian Empson
wrote:

> Hello OpenBSD world,
>
> Has there been/are there plan to include
some SSI functionality for BSD? I've looked into Linux for this and the
problem stems from the fact that the kernel has to be patched with the code to
perform this functionality. The linux kernel, being a separate entity from the
rest of the system, makes it difficult to keep an SSI system up to date kernel
wise. BSD seems to develop the kernel and utilities as one, lending itself to
easier integration of these features, perhaps? I'd be willing to donate money
to the project to see functionality like this implemented! Thoughts? Is there
anyone I can speak to about funding a sub project for OpenBSD SSI? Or is it
not even being considered?
>
> Thanks,
> Brian

For starters, what is SSI? As
many TLAs go, it can mean multiple
things. I won't try to guess what you want.
    -Otto

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Re: SSI

David Coppa
In reply to this post by Otto Moerbeek
On Thu, Sep 27, 2012 at 10:38 PM, Otto Moerbeek <[hidden email]> wrote:
> On Thu, Sep 27, 2012 at 01:04:23PM -0700, Brian Empson wrote:
>
>> Hello OpenBSD world,
>>
>> Has there been/are there plan to include some SSI functionality for BSD?
I've looked into Linux for this and the problem stems from the fact that the
kernel has to be patched with the code to perform this functionality. The
linux kernel, being a separate entity from the rest of the system, makes it
difficult to keep an SSI system up to date kernel wise. BSD seems to develop
the kernel and utilities as one, lending itself to easier integration of these
features, perhaps? I'd be willing to donate money to the project to see
functionality like this implemented! Thoughts? Is there anyone I can speak to
about funding a sub project for OpenBSD SSI? Or is it not even being
considered?
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Brian
>
> For starters, what is SSI? As many TLAs go, it can mean multiple
> things. I won't try to guess what you want.

Here's my guess:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single-system_image

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Re: SSI

Grumpy-3
In reply to this post by Otto Moerbeek
> For starters, what is SSI? As many TLAs go, it can mean multiple
> things. I won't try to guess what you want.

Obviously, SSI is a recursive acronym for ``SSI Shrinks Information''.
I am surprised a CS veteran like you doesn't know this.

Grumpy

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Re: SSI

Ben Calvert-4
In reply to this post by Brian Empson
I think he means "Single System Image"

ben

On Sep 27, 2012, at 1:46 PM, Brian Empson <[hidden email]> wrote:

> The SSI I'm talking about would be defined as "making multiple separate
> machines appear as one single system with one single process space, a shared
> root filesystem, and shared virtual IP". Shared memory doesn't seem that
> important, except for maybe moving a process from one machine to another.
> Thanks,
> Brian
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Otto Moerbeek
> <[hidden email]>
> To: Brian Empson <[hidden email]>
> Cc:
> "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]>
> Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2012 4:38
> PM
> Subject: Re: SSI
>
> On Thu, Sep 27, 2012 at 01:04:23PM -0700, Brian Empson
> wrote:
>
>> Hello OpenBSD world,
>>
>> Has there been/are there plan to include
> some SSI functionality for BSD? I've looked into Linux for this and the
> problem stems from the fact that the kernel has to be patched with the code to
> perform this functionality. The linux kernel, being a separate entity from the
> rest of the system, makes it difficult to keep an SSI system up to date kernel
> wise. BSD seems to develop the kernel and utilities as one, lending itself to
> easier integration of these features, perhaps? I'd be willing to donate money
> to the project to see functionality like this implemented! Thoughts? Is there
> anyone I can speak to about funding a sub project for OpenBSD SSI? Or is it
> not even being considered?
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Brian
>
> For starters, what is SSI? As
> many TLAs go, it can mean multiple
> things. I won't try to guess what you want.
>     -Otto

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Re: SSI

Matthew Dempsky-3
In reply to this post by Brian Empson
On Thu, Sep 27, 2012 at 1:46 PM, Brian Empson <[hidden email]> wrote:
> The SSI I'm talking about would be defined as "making multiple separate
> machines appear as one single system with one single process space, a shared
> root filesystem, and shared virtual IP". Shared memory doesn't seem that
> important, except for maybe moving a process from one machine to another.

No, that's not something anyone is working on.  I'd also imagine the
complexity of implementing such a system would make it unattractive to
OpenBSD.  NFS is already horrible enough.  ;P

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Re: SSI

m brandenberg
In reply to this post by David Coppa
On Thu, 27 Sep 2012, David Coppa wrote:

>> For starters, what is SSI? As many TLAs go, it can mean multiple
>> things. I won't try to guess what you want.
>
> Here's my guess:
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single-system_image

I...  I...  I can hear Theo's eyes roll from *3000* miles away!

--
Monty Brandenberg

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Re: SSI

Matthew Dempsky-3
On Thu, Sep 27, 2012 at 2:16 PM, m brandenberg <[hidden email]> wrote:
> On Thu, 27 Sep 2012, David Coppa wrote:
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single-system_image
>
> I...  I...  I can hear Theo's eyes roll from *3000* miles away!

Meh, I don't see anything inherently insecure about SSI, I just don't
think it's a system-model that OpenBSD has any interest in pursuing.
The cost/benefit trade off just isn't right for us.

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Re: SSI

gwes-2
In reply to this post by m brandenberg
On 09/27/2012 05:16 PM, m brandenberg wrote:

> On Thu, 27 Sep 2012, David Coppa wrote:
>
>>> For starters, what is SSI? As many TLAs go, it can mean multiple
>>> things. I won't try to guess what you want.
>>
>> Here's my guess:
>>
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single-system_image
>
> I...  I...  I can hear Theo's eyes roll from *3000* miles away!
>
> --
> Monty Brandenberg
What problem is this "single image" intended to solve?
There are better ways to do whatever it is.

There are research papers showing that the cost of transferring
a process from machine to machine greatly exceeds the incremental
increase in CPU availability.

Sharing memory across a network, like threads, is almost always
the wrong approach to data coherency.

Sharing I/O devices across a network has mostly been accomplished,
though NFS is a bad example.

Synchronizing the mess is, in the general case, impossible.

Basically, SSI is one of those traps (like threads, again) that
might appeal to the naive but dies horribly once one really
looks at the idea.

Geoff Steckel

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Re: SSI

Darren Tucker
In reply to this post by Brian Empson
On Thu, Sep 27, 2012 at 01:04:23PM -0700, Brian Empson wrote:
> Hello OpenBSD world,
>
> Has there been/are there plan to include some SSI functionality
> for BSD?

Single System Image was one of the original design goals for DragonFly,
but they seem to have backed away from that recently (or, at least, it's
taking much longer than they expected).

--
Darren Tucker (dtucker at zip.com.au)
GPG key 8FF4FA69 / D9A3 86E9 7EEE AF4B B2D4  37C9 C982 80C7 8FF4 FA69
    Good judgement comes with experience. Unfortunately, the experience
usually comes from bad judgement.

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Re: SSI

Ted Unangst-6
In reply to this post by David Coppa
On Thu, Sep 27, 2012 at 14:37, Matthew Dempsky wrote:
> On Thu, Sep 27, 2012 at 2:16 PM, m brandenberg <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> On Thu, 27 Sep 2012, David Coppa wrote:
>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single-system_image
>>
>> I...  I...  I can hear Theo's eyes roll from *3000* miles away!
>
> Meh, I don't see anything inherently insecure about SSI, I just don't
> think it's a system-model that OpenBSD has any interest in pursuing.
> The cost/benefit trade off just isn't right for us.

ssi is mainframe scale.  openbsd is web scale!

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Re: SSI

Otto Moerbeek
In reply to this post by Grumpy-3
Op 27 sep. 2012 om 22:51 heeft Grumpy <[hidden email]> het volgende
geschreven:

>> For starters, what is SSI? As many TLAs go, it can mean multiple
>> things. I won't try to guess what you want.
>
> Obviously, SSI is a recursive acronym for ``SSI Shrinks Information''.
> I am surprised a CS veteran like you doesn't know this.
>
> Grumpy

Veteran, yes. But as you know, the set of aquired acronyms depends much upon
environment. I once had a meeting (fresh from university) with some IBM
engineers on the subject of the introduction of the first RS/6000 models in
.nl. I still feel the sense of alienation, not knowing what a DASD was. I was
guessing it was some very special storage device, but in the end it just meant
"direct access storage device": just a disk.

Maybe this wil trigger an EOG (end of grumpiness :-)

 -Otto

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Re: SSI

Rod Whitworth-3
On Fri, 28 Sep 2012 09:20:59 +0200, Otto Moerbeek wrote:

>Veteran, yes. But as you know, the set of aquired acronyms depends much upon
>environment. I once had a meeting (fresh from university) with some IBM
>engineers on the subject of the introduction of the first RS/6000 models in
>.nl. I still feel the sense of alienation, not knowing what a DASD was. I was
>guessing it was some very special storage device, but in the end it just meant
>"direct access storage device": just a disk.
>
>Maybe this wil trigger an EOG (end of grumpiness :-)
>
> -Otto

Heh, it reminds me of when I was teaching for IBM and we had an entire
class of outsiders.

The course notes (which the students had in front of them) referred to
the DASD. They all looked puzzled and one asked me what it was.

My reflex answer was: "DAS D thing that spins very fast and the data
comes off or on."

The devil made me do it!

8-))

Rod/


*** NOTE *** Please DO NOT CC me. I <am> subscribed to the list.
Mail to the sender address that does not originate at the list server is tarpitted. The reply-to: address is provided for those who feel compelled to reply off list. Thankyou.

Rod/
---
This life is not the real thing.
It is not even in Beta.
If it was, then OpenBSD would already have a man page for it.

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Re: SSI

Tomas Bodzar-4
In reply to this post by Brian Empson
Op 27 sep. 2012 om 22:51 heeft Grumpy <[hidden email]> het
volgende
geschreven:

>> For starters, what is SSI? As many TLAs go, it can mean multiple
>> things. I won't try to guess what you want.
>
> Obviously, SSI is a recursive acronym for ``SSI Shrinks Information''.
> I am surprised a CS veteran like you doesn't know this.
>
> Grumpy

Veteran, yes. But as you know, the set of aquired acronyms depends much upon
environment. I once had a meeting (fresh from university) with some IBM
engineers on the subject of the introduction of the first RS/6000 models in
.nl. I still feel the sense of alienation, not knowing what a DASD was. I
was
guessing it was some very special storage device, but in the end it just
meant
"direct access storage device": just a disk.

FYI = For Your Information
FYI = Fuck You Idiot

Very useful distinction in corporate wide forwarding :-)


Maybe this wil trigger an EOG (end of grumpiness :-)

 -Otto

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Re: SSI

sickmind
In reply to this post by Darren Tucker
On 11:12 Fri 28 Sep     , Darren Tucker wrote:

> On Thu, Sep 27, 2012 at 01:04:23PM -0700, Brian Empson wrote:
> > Hello OpenBSD world,
> >
> > Has there been/are there plan to include some SSI functionality
> > for BSD?
>
> Single System Image was one of the original design goals for DragonFly,
> but they seem to have backed away from that recently (or, at least, it's
> taking much longer than they expected).
>

Matt Dillon wrote some time ago that they had still intended to implement
that, though he didn't mention any details.

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Re: SSI

Diana Eichert
I remember asking Matt @ SC05 BSD BOF about SSI. He said it was
a long term goal.  That was 7 years ago, so maybe in another
7 years?

diana
PS  How many acronyms can you use in an e-mail post?


On Fri, 28 Sep 2012, [hidden email] wrote:

> On 11:12 Fri 28 Sep     , Darren Tucker wrote:
>> On Thu, Sep 27, 2012 at 01:04:23PM -0700, Brian Empson wrote:
>>> Hello OpenBSD world,
>>>
>>> Has there been/are there plan to include some SSI functionality
>>> for BSD?
>>
>> Single System Image was one of the original design goals for DragonFly,
>> but they seem to have backed away from that recently (or, at least, it's
>> taking much longer than they expected).
>>
>
> Matt Dillon wrote some time ago that they had still intended to implement
> that, though he didn't mention any details.

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Re: SSI

Kenneth R Westerback
On Fri, Sep 28, 2012 at 08:32:02AM -0600, Diana Eichert wrote:
> I remember asking Matt @ SC05 BSD BOF about SSI. He said it was a
> long term goal.  That was 7 years ago, so maybe in another 7 years?
>
> diana
> PS  How many acronyms can you use in an e-mail post?

Piffle. The *real* challenge is how many times can you use the *same*
acronym to mean different things in one post. :-)

.... Ken

>
>
> On Fri, 28 Sep 2012, [hidden email] wrote:
>
> >On 11:12 Fri 28 Sep     , Darren Tucker wrote:
> >>On Thu, Sep 27, 2012 at 01:04:23PM -0700, Brian Empson wrote:
> >>>Hello OpenBSD world,
> >>>
> >>>Has there been/are there plan to include some SSI functionality
> >>>for BSD?
> >>
> >>Single System Image was one of the original design goals for DragonFly,
> >>but they seem to have backed away from that recently (or, at least, it's
> >>taking much longer than they expected).
> >>
> >
> >Matt Dillon wrote some time ago that they had still intended to implement
> >that, though he didn't mention any details.

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Re: SSI

Russell Garrison
I initially thought this thread was about Social Security Insurance,
but instead it is about something like SGI UV.

12