Request for Funding our Electricity

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Re: Request for Funding our Electricity

patrick keshishian
On 1/16/14, Kevin Chadwick <[hidden email]> wrote:
> The installer or man page asks for donations, how about the ssh login
> banner or initial output which might get perhaps 100s of thousands more
> eyefall?

I see where this is headed: In app purchases! e.g., after
couple of failed attempts/insults by sudo, it prompts you
to purchase your 'access' for only $1.99!

(:
--patrick


>
> --
> _______________________________________________________________________
>
> 'Write programs that do one thing and do it well. Write programs to work
> together. Write programs to handle text streams, because that is a
> universal interface'
>
> (Doug McIlroy)
>
> In Other Words - Don't design like polkit or systemd
> _______________________________________________________________________

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Re: Request for Funding our Electricity

Daniel Cegiełka
http://goteo.org/project/gnupg-new-website-and-infrastructure

Why do not you do such a campaign? Wow.. new website and
infrastructure for GnuPG. Result: more then 24k USD in three weeks. So
where OpenBSD/OpenSSH are worse than GnuPG? Guys, your problem is not
the OpenBSD foundation, but the total lack of good marketing.

Best regards,
Daniel

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Re: Request for Funding our Electricity

Jack Woehr-2
Daniel Cegiełka wrote:
> http://goteo.org/project/gnupg-new-website-and-infrastructure
>
> Why do not you do such a campaign?

I think Theo has answered this previously. His point was that he doesn't want to spend his time year after year
running campaigns. Being neither a politician nor a diplomat nor a grantmaster, he wants a sustainable model.


--
Jack Woehr               # "We commonly say we have no time when,
Box 51, Golden CO 80402  #  of course, we have all that there is."
http://www.softwoehr.com # - James Mason, _The Art of Chess_, 1905

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Re: Request for Funding our Electricity

Kevin Chadwick-2
In reply to this post by patrick keshishian
On Thu, 16 Jan 2014 09:09:09 -0800
patrick keshishian wrote:

> > The installer or man page asks for donations, how about the ssh login
> > banner or initial output which might get perhaps 100s of thousands more
> > eyefall?  
>
> I see where this is headed: In app purchases! e.g., after
> couple of failed attempts/insults by sudo, it prompts you
> to purchase your 'access' for only $1.99!

I can't see that happening when the code is OpenBSD's myself.

I primarily meant client usage but server access from other clients too.

This way you may get Windows, Linux, Android, hosting companies and OSX
users etc..

So you use the client and it has a carefully considered one-liner like

Keep ssh as secure and fast as possible. Why not donate today at www.

or the sympathy vote

OpenSSH has one of the lowest donation to user ratios of all open
source software and the environment in which it was born within is
currently under threat. Please support this critical piece of software
at www.

You could even have it show up once in 10 times or something.


Just a thought from figuring it was one of the easiest tools OpenBSD
has to reach out to many many people.

Bad side is may take years to hit hosting companies that have Ubuntu
LTS etc. but the initial shock factor may cause a winfall.

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Re: Request for Funding our Electricity

Daniel Cegiełka
In reply to this post by Jack Woehr-2
2014/1/16 Jack Woehr <[hidden email]>:

> Daniel Cegiełka wrote:
>>
>> http://goteo.org/project/gnupg-new-website-and-infrastructure
>>
>> Why do not you do such a campaign?
>
>
> I think Theo has answered this previously. His point was that he doesn't
> want to spend his time year after year
> running campaigns. Being neither a politician nor a diplomat nor a
> grantmaster, he wants a sustainable model.

I agree that in the long term stable funding is needed. Today,
however, we are faced with shut down risk.

Another example: Google will pay even more than $3000 for finding an
error in OpenSSH (Core infrastructure network services) - do they know
about your problems?

http://googleonlinesecurity.blogspot.com/2013/10/going-beyond-vulnerability-rewards.html

Daniel

MJ
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Re: Request for Funding our Electricity

MJ
In reply to this post by Jack Woehr-2
On 16 Jan 2014, at 19.45, Jack Woehr <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I think Theo has answered this previously. His point was that he doesn't want to spend his time year after year
> running campaigns. Being neither a politician nor a diplomat nor a grantmaster, he wants a sustainable model.

There’s a person who writes excellent documentation for OpenBSD, isn’t he an English language professor? Excellent documentation is one of the key features of OpenBSD, hands down, i.e. he is an extremely valuable project member even if he doesn’t commit executable code to version control. With this in mind, wouldn’t there be room in core for a person dedicated to fund-raising, i.e. a person with a strong vote?

I really do want to see OpenBSD survive, but expenses are a reality as we now see. Being the project leader means also addressing the issue of funding in a feasible manner, even if addressing simply means delegation to a person who has both the competence as well as motivation to perform such a role. Fact is, if I were capable of funding the electricity bill then I would do it in a heartbeat, but it would definitely require transparency as has been stated earlier in this conversation.

Wikipedia runs these sort of fundraisers every year and they do it in a very obtrusive way, but they haven’t yet run out of money. Time to face reality.


-mike

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Re: Request for Funding our Electricity

Bob Beck-2
In reply to this post by Daniel Cegiełka
On Thu, Jan 16, 2014 at 10:58 AM, Daniel Cegiełka
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> Another example: Google will pay even more than $3000 for finding an
> error in OpenSSH (Core infrastructure network services) - do they know
> about your problems?
>
> http://googleonlinesecurity.blogspot.com/2013/10/going-beyond-vulnerability-rewards.html
>
> Daniel
>

Yes, we're aware of that program.  However it still comes down to a
bounty for bugfixes or change
of some sort. so it's not a source of sustainable funding, unless we
were to do something like introduce
an annual quota of bugs and convincing looking churn for the sake of
"finding them" every year. Would
you want to depend upon software in your infrastructure that we were
doing that to?

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Re: Request for Funding our Electricity

Jeff Zellman
In reply to this post by Han Hwei Woo
On Thu, Jan 16, 2014 at 09:05:24AM -0800, Han Hwei Woo wrote:
> Rather than raising prices on CD's/T-Shirts, how about allowing for
> subscriptions? I've bought CD's and shirts in the past, but don't do so
> regularly simply as it's not something I think/remember to do at every
> release. However, I'd gladly signup to purchase a CD and T-Shirt every
> release on an ongoing basis.

Adding subscriptions is an interesting idea and something I would
sign up for. Seems like they would

 - provide a source of sustainable/recurring income
 - falls within good taste and controlled by the project (not
   kickstarter, not ads in motd, etc.)
 - fits within an existing source of revenue (purchasing stuff on the
   site)

An unknown is how much something like this would take away from real
development; and whether it would be worth doing. I'm not an OS/kernel
developer but have been creating web applications forever. I am
willing to help with this or any other tasks so the OS hackers can
continue to make OpenBSD, OpenSSH (and the rest of the family) the
best tools out there.


Jeff

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Request for Funding our Electricity

Jan Lambertz
In reply to this post by Bob Beck-2
I like the subscription idea. I'd love to have every release without
actually doing the shopping every time. This could at least make a bit of
safe money.

I believe, making a company  sending 20k$ every year to openbsd could be
quite difficult.
Why should they do this ?
What do they get ?
Why is that better than spending that money in new hardware or buying fancy
whiteboards in managers office ?

I know what they would get, but they dont. How do we make a company to know
about the benefit of openbsd? They never heard of it. They wont ever use it
because they dont get a 24/7 support contract from a big consulting company
for it.
They dont know about openbsd and most dont care.
That might not be the opinion of most people on this list but it is the
opinion of most people not on this list [the ones with money].

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Re: Request for Funding our Electricity

Joshua Smith-10
+1 for the subscription idea. Not that it completely solves the problem at hand. But a great (IMHO) idea.

--
Josh Smith
KD8HRX

Email/jabber: [hidden email]
Phone: 304.237.9369(c)

Sent from my iPhone.

> On Jan 16, 2014, at 2:34 PM, Jan Lambertz <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I like the subscription idea. I'd love to have every release without
> actually doing the shopping every time. This could at least make a bit of
> safe money.
>
> I believe, making a company  sending 20k$ every year to openbsd could be
> quite difficult.
> Why should they do this ?
> What do they get ?
> Why is that better than spending that money in new hardware or buying fancy
> whiteboards in managers office ?
>
> I know what they would get, but they dont. How do we make a company to know
> about the benefit of openbsd? They never heard of it. They wont ever use it
> because they dont get a 24/7 support contract from a big consulting company
> for it.
> They dont know about openbsd and most dont care.
> That might not be the opinion of most people on this list but it is the
> opinion of most people not on this list [the ones with money].

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Re: Request for Funding our Electricity

Jack Woehr-2
In reply to this post by Bob Beck-2
Bob Beck wrote:
> so it's not a source of sustainable funding, unless we were to do something like introduce an annual quota of bugs
http://dilbert.com/strips/comic/1995-11-13/

--
Jack Woehr               # "We commonly say we have no time when,
Box 51, Golden CO 80402  #  of course, we have all that there is."
http://www.softwoehr.com # - James Mason, _The Art of Chess_, 1905

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Re: Request for Funding our Electricity

LeviaComm Networks NOC
In reply to this post by Maximo Pech Jaramillo
> Then maybe the number of bugs for an architecture can bematched to
> the power-on-time for the machines for that  architecture.

So your solution is to replace requiring financial donations to
requiring more hardware donations?  Cold boots are by far the biggest
cause of hardware failure, this risk is far too high for some of the
older machines that consequently have more expensive and harder to find
parts.  Besides, how are you going to find bugs on powered-off machines?

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Re: Request for Funding our Electricity

Juan Francisco Cantero Hurtado
In reply to this post by Sia Lang
On Thu, Jan 16, 2014 at 01:10:05PM +0100, Sia Lang wrote:
> Virtual machines/emus and canadian cross builds should be able to reduce
> the amount of iron, no?

Just a side note to the people talking about emulators. Obviously,
you're not tried to install OpenBSD on emulators. Basically, everything
is broken except amd64 and i386.

Feel free to create guides to teaching us how to install each platform
supported on some emulator.

>
>
> On Thu, Jan 16, 2014 at 12:53 PM, Theo de Raadt <[hidden email]>wrote:
>
> > >Through the history of openbsd there have been architectures in which
> > more bugs have been found and some in which fewer bugs have appeared.
> >
> > That is not true.
> >
> > >Then maybe the number of bugs for an architecture can be matched to the
> > power-on-time for the machines for that architecture.
> >
> > Maybe.  Probably need them on to prove or disprove the point.
> >
> > >For example, if 1% of the total number of bugs in the history of openbsd
> > have appeared on architecture x, then it's likely that it will continue to
> > be so, then all the machines for that architecture should be powered on
> > just 1% of the time.
> >
> > Another great advantage here is that all the pesky developers who love
> > those machines will go away, and we'll only need to run on the best
> > architectures (which of course, are big endian).
> >
> > >Then perform that analysis on all architectures to make a more better use
> > of energy. And that's it.
> >
> > It's so simple.  Why didn't I think of it.
>

--
Juan Francisco Cantero Hurtado http://juanfra.info

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Re: Request for Funding our Electricity

Theo de Raadt
In reply to this post by Theo de Raadt
>> Then maybe the number of bugs for an architecture can bematched to
>> the power-on-time for the machines for that  architecture.
>
>So your solution is to replace requiring financial donations to
>requiring more hardware donations?  Cold boots are by far the biggest
>cause of hardware failure, this risk is far too high for some of the
>older machines that consequently have more expensive and harder to find
>parts.  

To clarify the situation: the machines are on all the time.  And as
much as possible, they are always building something, whether it be
ports or builds, hoping that some of the address space randomization
or such will spot bugs.

Also, if a new change goes into the source tree which creates a
problem, we want to spot it as soon as possible, before the developers
involved have become distracted in other directions.

> Besides, how are you going to find bugs on powered-off machines?

No kidding.

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Re: Request for Funding our Electricity

Daniel Ouellet
Just my $0.02 worth.

OpenBSD asked for help.

Why everything we see is change this, change that, etc. Like they don't
know what they are doing for the last 20 years!

Either we can help or we can't. But please stop trying to tell everyone
how to do what they do best for the last 20 years like they have no clue
what they do...

If you sadly really think a bake sale will help. Then do it yourself and
then send the profit to the project. Or do what ever else you can to
help and so be it.

I fell so sad at the reaction of the community when the project is
asking for help and that's what they get.

And more shameful in between these sad emails I still see some asking
when this or that will be supported by the project as well...

What a shame...

Do what you can to help and stop telling others what to do please.

Talk to your company, friends, what ever for trying to help as well, or
come with an original idea and just do it.

If you think company should get letters from the project to help the
project, then write them yourself and try to make the case as I am sure
they all use something that came form OpenBSD in one way or an other,
but please stop telling the guys there what they should do!

They do plenty already!

Best regards,

Daniel

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Re: Request for Funding our Electricity

LeviaComm Networks NOC
In reply to this post by Gregor Best
Gregor Best wrote:

> On Wed, Jan 15, 2014 at 09:55:04PM +0000, Franchini Fabien wrote:
>> [...]
>> I suggest to write a letter to theses companies who are known to using OpenBSD
>> or other product-related like OpenSSH. In this letter we can explain (as the first
>> post from Theo) our issue. I'm sure they can give us an hand if they know our
>> problem. And in my opinion, ONLY a company can give us a long-term solution.
>> [...]
>
> Maybe to inject a further point into this discussion... One of these
> companies is Apple. They replaced ipfw with pf in recent releases of
> Darwin (see [0]).
>
> Since, with Darwin being Open Source, they seem not entirely against
> spending resources on Open Source Software, and they profit in no small
> margin from the OpenBSD project and its "satellites" like OpenSSH, they
> might be a good recipient for a polite letter in request of help. Not
> the least because they could use their assistance in their marketing
> ("Look how cool we are, we are paying them their electricity!").
>

Any large company will want something in return, mostly more money than
they gave you, whether direct or indirectly.  OpenBSD staying alive
doesn't affect their bottom line, if we disappear they could always just
use one of the (albeit far less secure) alternatives. If we start asking
money for our code, that is what they'll do.  I, for one, would rather
allow corporations to use my code for free without credit than to spend
long nights protecting my systems from the malware spewing from their
compromised machines.

If something like this is to survive, we'll need to provide a carrot,
rather than a stick.  What I mean by this is that we need to give them a
reason why giving us money will be in their best interests, like
pointing out that by using our code, they are saving money by having to
produce and distribute less patches.  Or perhaps offer to improve our
code in their favor, eg make it more efficient on their hardware in
exchange for hardware, money or both.  To take the Apple example, we
could offer to make pf more OS-X friendly in exchange for a small
consideration, saving them money because it would require less time on
their part to adapt it.

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Re: Request for Funding our Electricity

Steven Chamberlain
In reply to this post by Theo de Raadt
I've set up a small recurring donation for now.

I'd like to throw out some ideas and questions if I may:

* Anyone selling an OpenBSD-based solution to business customers might
want to imagine the OS has some sort of 'license fee', increase the
quote for their work accordingly, and pass along the sum in donations.

* Please could we get a newer picture than rack2009.jpg?  I assume much
has already changed;  I don't see a loongson build machine for example.
 Would the picture be anywhere near representative of where the CAN$20k
electricity costs arise?

* Is there any easy means on-hand to measure power consumption, maybe
reading stats from the UPSes, or using plug-in meters such as those made
by CurrentCost; would anything like that be worth putting on the
hardware wishlist?

* Could potential energy savings be roughly worked out, and maybe
mentioned in the hardware wishlist somehow?  Would a Sun Fire T1000 be
able to replace some number of older sparc boxes for example?  And as
SSDs become larger, would a pair of them be able to replace some number
of power-hungry 10k RPM disks?  Such things are all the more valuable as
donations if they have a lower operating cost than what they replaced.

Regards,
--
Steven Chamberlain
[hidden email]

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Re: Request for Funding our Electricity

Stuart Henderson
In reply to this post by Sia Lang
On 2014-01-16, Sia Lang <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Virtual machines/emus and canadian cross builds should be able to reduce
> the amount of iron, no?

Try following http://www.openbsd.org/vax-simh.html. Then observe your cpu
usage figures and, if you are able to measure it, the power consumption.

If you make it as far as installing the OS and checking out source,
xenocara and ports trees over CVS without getting bored and doing something
more interesting instead, I'll be surprised...

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Re: Request for Funding our Electricity

Dag Richards
In reply to this post by Steven Chamberlain
I have a suggestion for every one of us that has mailed in an idea in
response to a solicitaion for money...

Send money.

Just do it right now, write a cheque. Send it, send it now.
Do that a couple of times a year.
Buy a cd twice a year, get at least one t-shirt with each order.

Were we told how much the monthly electron bill is?
I can step up my contribution a bit.

Could we save money by converting to steam, maybe we could remove
support for coff binary's cause they are , you know, bad or old or
something. Or perhaps running the build farm on raspberry pi's. I
understand Linux has a cross compiler and that way .... we could all
just shut up and chip in some dough.....


Steven Chamberlain wrote:

> I've set up a small recurring donation for now.
>
> I'd like to throw out some ideas and questions if I may:
>
> * Anyone selling an OpenBSD-based solution to business customers might
> want to imagine the OS has some sort of 'license fee', increase the
> quote for their work accordingly, and pass along the sum in donations.
>
> * Please could we get a newer picture than rack2009.jpg?  I assume much
> has already changed;  I don't see a loongson build machine for example.
>  Would the picture be anywhere near representative of where the CAN$20k
> electricity costs arise?
>
> * Is there any easy means on-hand to measure power consumption, maybe
> reading stats from the UPSes, or using plug-in meters such as those made
> by CurrentCost; would anything like that be worth putting on the
> hardware wishlist?
>
> * Could potential energy savings be roughly worked out, and maybe
> mentioned in the hardware wishlist somehow?  Would a Sun Fire T1000 be
> able to replace some number of older sparc boxes for example?  And as
> SSDs become larger, would a pair of them be able to replace some number
> of power-hungry 10k RPM disks?  Such things are all the more valuable as
> donations if they have a lower operating cost than what they replaced.
>
> Regards,

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Re: Request for Funding our Electricity

Christer Solskogen-3
In reply to this post by Juan Francisco Cantero Hurtado
On Thu, Jan 16, 2014 at 10:25 PM, Juan Francisco Cantero Hurtado
<[hidden email]> wrote:
> Just a side note to the people talking about emulators. Obviously,
> you're not tried to install OpenBSD on emulators. Basically, everything
> is broken except amd64 and i386.
>

except amd64 and i386?!

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