Request for Funding our Electricity

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Re: Request for Funding our Electricity

Sia Lang
Theo,

In situations like this, it might be a good idea to come down from your
high horse (it's a mostly irrelevant OS anyway) and start treating people
offering ideas - good or bad-  with some f*cking respect.

I fortunately read through the thread before NOT donating.

That small donation wouldn't have amounted to much, but I am positive you
being the leader of this project is the very reason no one wants to step up
with serious funding.

-Sia

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Re: Request for Funding our Electricity

Martin Schröder
2014/1/15 Sia Lang <[hidden email]>:
> That small donation wouldn't have amounted to much, but I am positive you
> being the leader of this project is the very reason no one wants to step up
> with serious funding.

Him being the leader is the very reason this project still exists.

Best
   Martin

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Re: Request for Funding our Electricity

Bryan Vyhmeister-3
On Wed, Jan 15, 2014 at 07:41:03PM +0100, Martin Schröder wrote:
> Him being the leader is the very reason this project still exists.

The thing about OpenBSD is that it has a very clear and strong focus.
This comes from clear and strong leadership. Is Theo right on
everything? Of course not. None of us are. However, he directs things in
a direction that benefits all of us and OpenBSD has an absolutely clear
focus and direction.

Some other operating systems might be entertaining, an academic
exercise, or a "just because" effort (anyone running Debian/kFreeBSD in
production?) but OpenBSD is extremely powerful and useful. Nothing comes
close in my opinion and there's a reason for that. OpenBSD doesn't have
a huge democratic process that takes months or years to decide anything.
Instead, real work gets done every single release and new and improved
functionality is there every single time without a bunch of binary
blobs.

I'm doing whatever I can to help encourage corporate sponsorship and I
would encourage everyone else to do the same. Now is not the time to
comment on what you think of Theo's leadership. If you don't like it,
use something else. That's the beauty of freedom. No one is forcing you
to use OpenBSD. Let's limit the noise to things that could actually
benefit OpenBSD rather than what we think might be wrong.

Each of us should be looking at ways that *we* can help OpenBSD rather
than pointing out what the developers could do in addition to all the
volunteer coding they're already doing. Don't forget how valuable and
expensive it would be to hire all of these amazing developers to do what
they love doing.

Bryan

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Re: Request for Funding our Electricity

Peter J. Philipp-3
In reply to this post by Martin Schröder
On 01/15/14 19:41, Martin Schröder wrote:
> 2014/1/15 Sia Lang <[hidden email]>:
>> That small donation wouldn't have amounted to much, but I am positive you
>> being the leader of this project is the very reason no one wants to step up
>> with serious funding.
>
> Him being the leader is the very reason this project still exists.

I agree on that.  Theo is not only a good programmer he is also a
business man and has successfully sold his product.

Since everyone has ideas, I want to put up another small idea of mine.
When people donate even if it's $15 it's worth something, and we who
donate are all appreciative of any amount given by peers.  So then if
20,000 dollars is 365 days for electricity how about OpenBSD chops
everyones donation into a timeslot.  Every package built with the ports
system at that timeslot then displays whose time it was that finalised
the package.  So if my time was used it would say:

# pkg_add somepackage
...
This package's buildtime was generously donated by Peter J. Philipp.
#

or

# pkg_add someotherpackage
...
This package's buildtime was generously donated by Scary Corporation.
#

The programming for this is probably the least of worries, OpenBSD has
after all a bunch of coders.  The other aspect is that it's advertising,
but it's not too intrusive in my view, and it does honor the little guy
too as his timeslot may build X amount of packages.

People want to feel that they get something back so perhaps
cross-referencing can be done who did what packages buildtime and that
can be tracked back.  It's advertising that particular person, making
them feel a bond towards the project and they will likely donate again,
to relive that feel.

It's just an idea,

Cheers,

-peter

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Re: Request for Funding our Electricity

agrquinonez
In reply to this post by Kevin Chadwick-2
On 15/01/14 10:31 AM, Kevin Chadwick wrote:

> previously on this list agrquinonez contributed:
>
>> The other idea, is Members, every one of us could give five dollars per
>> month to keep the privilege of using OpenBSD; receiving information,
>> participating in the list, etc.
>
> I think that would strangle the project and possibly prevent future
> donater's becoming involved and passionate. I would guess OpenBSD has a
> far higher percentage of users that donate or buy than debian but less
> corporate backing.
>

I am talking about Gentlemen, The people who are contributing
voluntarily; people who think, that using OpenBSD is a privilege!
Of course, that you have a better idea; where is it?

[demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type application/pgp-signature which had a name of signature.asc]

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Re: Request for Funding our Electricity

Andres Perera-4
In reply to this post by Peter J. Philipp-3
On Wed, Jan 15, 2014 at 2:44 PM, Peter J. Philipp <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 01/15/14 19:41, Martin Schröder wrote:
>> 2014/1/15 Sia Lang <[hidden email]>:
>>> That small donation wouldn't have amounted to much, but I am positive you
>>> being the leader of this project is the very reason no one wants to step up
>>> with serious funding.
>>
>> Him being the leader is the very reason this project still exists.
>
> I agree on that.  Theo is not only a good programmer he is also a
> business man and has successfully sold his product.
>
> Since everyone has ideas, I want to put up another small idea of mine.
> When people donate even if it's $15 it's worth something, and we who
> donate are all appreciative of any amount given by peers.  So then if
> 20,000 dollars is 365 days for electricity how about OpenBSD chops
> everyones donation into a timeslot.  Every package built with the ports
> system at that timeslot then displays whose time it was that finalised
> the package.  So if my time was used it would say:
>
> # pkg_add somepackage
> ...
> This package's buildtime was generously donated by Peter J. Philipp.

until libre office takes ~30 $50 dollar donations, bombarding my
terminal with names of insecure ppl

> #
>
> or
>
> # pkg_add someotherpackage
> ...
> This package's buildtime was generously donated by Scary Corporation.
> #
>
> The programming for this is probably the least of worries, OpenBSD has
> after all a bunch of coders.  The other aspect is that it's advertising,
> but it's not too intrusive in my view, and it does honor the little guy
> too as his timeslot may build X amount of packages.
>
> People want to feel that they get something back so perhaps
> cross-referencing can be done who did what packages buildtime and that
> can be tracked back.  It's advertising that particular person, making
> them feel a bond towards the project and they will likely donate again,
> to relive that feel.
>
> It's just an idea,
>
> Cheers,
>
> -peter

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Re: Request for Funding our Electricity

Paulo Manoel Mafra-2
In reply to this post by agrquinonez
Hi guys, how about produce energy (solar energy, wind power generators,
etc) ? Has anyone some idea if it is possible and its cost ?
Maybe someone can donate this kind of material...


On Wed, Jan 15, 2014 at 11:22:47AM -0800, agrquinonez wrote:
* On 15/01/14 10:31 AM, Kevin Chadwick wrote:
* > previously on this list agrquinonez contributed:
* >
* >> The other idea, is Members, every one of us could give five dollars per
* >> month to keep the privilege of using OpenBSD; receiving information,
* >> participating in the list, etc.
* >
* > I think that would strangle the project and possibly prevent future
* > donater's becoming involved and passionate. I would guess OpenBSD has a
* > far higher percentage of users that donate or buy than debian but less
* > corporate backing.
* >
*
* I am talking about Gentlemen, The people who are contributing
* voluntarily; people who think, that using OpenBSD is a privilege!
* Of course, that you have a better idea; where is it?
*
* [demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type application/pgp-signature which had a name of signature.asc]
*

--


Sent by my Mutt
"Vitam Impendere Vero"

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Re: Request for Funding our Electricity

Gabriel Guzman-2
In reply to this post by Theo de Raadt
On 01/14, Theo de Raadt wrote:

> Nicolai, and others,
>
> I'd like to take the opportunity to thank all of those stepping up
> to the call for contributions.  Every little bit helps.
>
> For those who ask, the OpenBSD Foundation is the best path for
> contributions.
>
> I hope some larger contributors will step up, to take a more long term
> view (like Google does).  Rather than the "little people" funding our
> efforts.  Many of the things we do in OpenBSD are often incorporated
> into products made by multi-million dollar companies.
>
> This is not a BSD vs GPL issue, it is about a plain lack of goodwill,
> something you cannot mandate via a license.  A lack of goodwill is
> effectively badwill.
>
> There is a good list in the last paragraph of the OpenSSH web site.
> Maybe the community's activism can make inroads there which we have
> not been able to.

$10.00 montly donation to OpenBSD Foundation setup.  

On the other hand, I would definitely pay for a cupcake made by an OBSD
developer.

Thanks all for your work,
gabe.

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Re: Request for Funding our Electricity

Franchini Fabien
In reply to this post by Berger Steffan
Hello,

It seems that my idea was not read and in my opinion the discussion
turns in a wrong way. I don't believe that donations and/or a kind of rent will
solve our problem in long-term (as Theo says in a previous mail).

I'm pretty sure that the majority of companies doesn't read undeadly.org and
didn't notice that we have a financial/electrical issue.

I suggest to write a letter to theses companies who are known to using OpenBSD
or other product-related like OpenSSH. In this letter we can explain (as the first
post from Theo) our issue. I'm sure they can give us an hand if they know our
problem. And in my opinion, ONLY a company can give us a long-term solution.

Sorry I'm not a native english-speaker and I can't help to write a letter like that
but I'm sure that's realistic solution.

Another solution is to approach the *BSD community. FreeBSD are bigger
than us and how they'll solve these kind of problem ? I don't know but if we
join our effort we could find a solution.

Best regards !

Fabien Franchini

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Re: Request for Funding our Electricity

Chris Bennett
In reply to this post by MJ
On Wed, Jan 15, 2014 at 06:25:53PM +0200, MJ wrote:

>
> On 15 Jan 2014, at 16.35, Gilles LAMIRAL <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > Dear Theo,
> >
> >> Don't we do enough?
> >
> > You already do too much.
>
> I have long held the opinion that Theo is probably the best coder on this planet. That’s not any sort of ass-kissing, either, it’s my objective, unbiased opinion. And I know Henning personally, as in “live and worked together with him" - one hell of an expert.
>
> However, the dilemma that the project has found itself in now very clearly demonstrates that Theo is not a businessman and that there isn’t any other businessman at the helm, either. Imagining that people will suddenly start to pay for something that they have constantly been getting for free is absurd - their belief is that somebody else will surely step up first or somebody will fork in the name of fame. No business on this planet is going to allocate budget to paying OpenBSD’s electricity bills, let alone anything else, without 1) a detailed itemisation of the electrical bills, 2) a detailed justification of said line items, and 3) a satisfaction of their own business interest. It’s just not sexy for a philanthropist to support a relatively unheard of operating system when cancer is still left uncured.
>
> It’s not good to be removing coders from their tasks; the project needs a businessman or two. One who will handle the corporate feature requests and charge dearly for them. Things like routing technology and high-speed packet forwarding - things that can replace the exorbitant costs of maintaining cisco routers. This is the key. With the FBSD 10GB wire speed packet forwarding incorporated, OpenBSD would be ready to challenge Cisco in a very serious way. Completely free as always, but with paid support for this edge cases that make life what it is.
>

I have my own business, that has had recent problems due to my recent
health.

This point is 100% correct. OpenBSD needs a method of acquiring funds
beyond selling CD's, T-shirts, donations, etc.
Let's face it, donations are exactly the same thing as a tip in a
restaurant. Some tip, others don't.

The CD's are too expensive for Joe/Jane Idiot who can barely run their
current horrible operating system.
(CD prices are fine for us, just not for them)
The main problem I run into is that they are TERRIFIED of changing to
something else!
Installing an operating system by themselves? Never going to happen.

The FAQ, while helpful, is the same thing as a windows pop-up that says
"you are having a problem with the wifi system. Would you like to run
troubleshooting?" which does nothing, of course.

I could sell desktops and laptops here in Texas. Must be all in Spanish
and ready to go without any serious teaching. Video calls to Mexico and
further South are the main use here. Just need to work with existing
computers running windows over there.

Perhaps OpenBSD could sell a virus/malware/high security certification
for the base operating system of computers running it?
I think that would easily sell and sooth people fearful of viruses.

The software is free, but people are only too happy to buy silly
bullshit like that.

There are many such things that can be sold without making any changes
to the software licenses.

After all, the certification guarantees that any security problems will
absolutely be fixed within 6 months!

Any price suggestions? Standard or Pro certifications?


Chris Bennett

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Re: Request for Funding our Electricity

Vincent Gross-3
In reply to this post by MJ
On Wed, Jan 15, 2014 at 06:25:53PM +0200, MJ wrote:
>
> I have long held the opinion that Theo is probably the best coder on this planet. That?s not any sort of ass-kissing, either, it?s my objective, unbiased opinion. And I know Henning personally, as in ?live and worked together with him" - one hell of an expert.
>
> However, the dilemma that the project has found itself in now very clearly demonstrates that Theo is not a businessman and that there isn?t any other businessman at the helm, either. Imagining that people will suddenly start to pay for something that they have constantly been getting for free is absurd - their belief is that somebody else will surely step up first or somebody will fork in the name of fame. No business on this planet is going to allocate budget to paying OpenBSD?s electricity bills, let alone anything else, without 1) a detailed itemisation of the electrical bills, 2) a detailed justification of said line items, and 3) a satisfaction of their own business interest. It?s just not sexy for a philanthropist to support a relatively unheard of operating system when cancer is still left uncured.

Define sexy. Some people will say it's having flash running full speed
on their web browser while streaming 3 youtube videos. For me it's being
able to trust my operating system to behave in a way that keeps me in
the loop and able to fix it.

As for the legalese, some people said "You'll never get anywhere without
a protocol number for CARP!", yet some ciscos support CARP nowadays.

>
> It?s not good to be removing coders from their tasks; the project needs a businessman or two. One who will handle the corporate feature requests and charge dearly for them. Things like routing technology and high-speed packet forwarding - things that can replace the exorbitant costs of maintaining cisco routers. This is the key. With the FBSD 10GB wire speed packet forwarding incorporated, OpenBSD would be ready to challenge Cisco in a very serious way. Completely free as always, but with paid support for this edge cases that make life what it is.
>

I don't know what is your background with corporate IT, but my
experience is that most of the time what the suits are looking for is
the assurance they will have resources to fix arising issues, or in
layman terms, a tech support to yell at. I do not see OpenBSD providing
such a support. However there are quite a few companies that provide
such service for their OpenBSD-based appliances.

Does that mean OpenBSD roadmap should be based on what will sell with
these companies? The answer (which is "no") has already be given many
times on misc@, and I will let Theo add another layer of p[ao]int if he
deems it necessary.

Lastly, you suggest having a businessman in the project. That is,
someone who gets a commit bit by doing something else than coding. It's
not even about what this says to the world or the example it sets. It is
just plain rude towards the developers. I am not downplaying the
skills of businessmen; but you simply can't just say that contributing
code the OpenBSD way is the same as selling the product, however tough
that may be.


This is not a race; this is about doing things right.

regards,

--
Vincent

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Re: Request for Funding our Electricity

j-62
In reply to this post by Theo de Raadt
How about a $10 tax on top-posters.

A little more seriously, you might get some professional help from a
university or charity "development officer".  These people raise money
for a living.  Ask some for some advice.

One of the issues will be: financial statements for the organization.  
It's not really transparent about what revenue OBSD gets or where it
goes.  Obviously, there are some privacy issues. (Who feeds Theo and
what does he eat?)  Is the $20k per year electrical bill a big or small
part of the overall costs?  (Actually I don't expect an answer to this,
not here anyway.  Be aware that big $$ comes with big questions.)

The request was made for funding by a corp.

I'm just a lurker with some small corporate experience.  Here are some
opinions:  OBSD doesn't fit into some corps because it is not 1)
auditable, in that commercial products do not measure it for defects,
compliance, or anything really.  This renders it unusable: in Canada,
for NI 51-xxx compliance, or PCI compliance, or in US DoD environments
for STIG.   2) not visible, in that it is complete off the radar of "IT
weekly" or suchlike websites.  If you don't see it, you wont try it.  
3) not valued for the contribution that OBSD makes to upstream and
competitive products.  This is already well explained.  Corps are not
going to part with money (just) for this reason.

So, if the corps wont pay, and the market is, aside from some astute
ISPs, not really corporate driven, how can OBSD expect to gain some
revenue from a big corp?  My suggestion is we need to have lots of corps
interested in order to get 5% of them to pay your way.

Yes, this is prescriptive. Yes I'm aware I can expect a big pushback for
telling developers you "are supposed to do the extra work".  Don't.
Instead, tell me if this prescription is correct and/or wrong, or what
is a bigger opportunity to gain corp support.



--J

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Re: Request for Funding our Electricity

Maximo Pech Jaramillo
In reply to this post by Theo de Raadt
> El 20/12/2013, a las 18:08, Theo de Raadt <[hidden email]> escribió:
>
> I am resending this request for funding our electricity bills because
> it is not yet resolved.
>
> We really need even more funding beyond that, because otherwise all of
> this is simply unsustainable.  This request is the smallest we can
> make.
>
> -------
>
> Hi everyone.
>
> The OpenBSD project uses a lot of electricity for running the
> development and build machines.  A number of logistical reasons
> prevents us from moving the machines to another location which might
> offer space/power for free, so let's not allow the conversation to go
> that way.
>
> We are looking for a Canadian company who will take on our electrical
> expenses -- on their books, rather than on our books.  We would be
> happiest to find someone who will do this on an annual recurring
> basis.
>
> That way the various OpenBSD efforts can be supported, yet written off
> as an off-site operations cost by such a company.  If we reduce this
> cost, it will leave more money for other parts of the project.
>
> We think that a Canadian company is the best choice for accounting
> reasons.  If a company in some other jurisdiction feels they can also
> do this successfully, we'd be very happy to hear from them as well.
>
> I am not going to disclose the actual numbers here.  Please contact me
> for details if serious.
>
> Thanks.

Well, we know that energy prices will continue to increase, not decrease, so this will be harder in the future.

Whit this in mind, why not look for a strategy to save up on energy costs. Something like this:

Through the history of openbsd there have been architectures in which more bugs have been found and some in which fewer bugs have appeared.

Then maybe the number of bugs for an architecture can be matched to the power-on-time for the machines for that architecture.

For example, if 1% of the total number of bugs in the history of openbsd have appeared on architecture x, then it's likely that it will continue to be so, then all the machines for that architecture should be powered on just 1% of the time.

Then perform that analysis on all architectures to make a more better use of energy. And that's it.

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Re: Request for Funding our Electricity

Theo de Raadt
In reply to this post by Theo de Raadt
>Through the history of openbsd there have been architectures in which more bugs have been found and some in which fewer bugs have appeared.

That is not true.

>Then maybe the number of bugs for an architecture can be matched to the power-on-time for the machines for that architecture.

Maybe.  Probably need them on to prove or disprove the point.

>For example, if 1% of the total number of bugs in the history of openbsd have appeared on architecture x, then it's likely that it will continue to be so, then all the machines for that architecture should be powered on just 1% of the time.

Another great advantage here is that all the pesky developers who love those machines will go away, and we'll only need to run on the best architectures (which of course, are big endian).

>Then perform that analysis on all architectures to make a more better use of energy. And that's it.

It's so simple.  Why didn't I think of it.

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Re: Request for Funding our Electricity

Sia Lang
Virtual machines/emus and canadian cross builds should be able to reduce
the amount of iron, no?


On Thu, Jan 16, 2014 at 12:53 PM, Theo de Raadt <[hidden email]>wrote:

> >Through the history of openbsd there have been architectures in which
> more bugs have been found and some in which fewer bugs have appeared.
>
> That is not true.
>
> >Then maybe the number of bugs for an architecture can be matched to the
> power-on-time for the machines for that architecture.
>
> Maybe.  Probably need them on to prove or disprove the point.
>
> >For example, if 1% of the total number of bugs in the history of openbsd
> have appeared on architecture x, then it's likely that it will continue to
> be so, then all the machines for that architecture should be powered on
> just 1% of the time.
>
> Another great advantage here is that all the pesky developers who love
> those machines will go away, and we'll only need to run on the best
> architectures (which of course, are big endian).
>
> >Then perform that analysis on all architectures to make a more better use
> of energy. And that's it.
>
> It's so simple.  Why didn't I think of it.

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Re: Request for Funding our Electricity

frantisek holop
In reply to this post by Peter J. Philipp-3
hmm, on Wed, Jan 15, 2014 at 08:14:24PM +0100, Peter J. Philipp said that
> # pkg_add somepackage
> ...
> This package's buildtime was generously donated by Peter J. Philipp.
> #

ads in openbsd?  you must be out of your mind.
what next, adblock for openbsd?

-f
--
why do they call it a tv set when you only get one?

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Re: Request for Funding our Electricity

Luca Ferrari
In reply to this post by Sia Lang
On Thu, Jan 16, 2014 at 1:10 PM, Sia Lang <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Virtual machines/emus and canadian cross builds should be able to reduce
> the amount of iron, no?
>

I don't think virtual machines are the solution: I see them as another
buggy ecosystem on which developers will try to debug their code.
A lot of people on this thread are suggesting to remove/reduce
platforms OpenBSD supports, and it seems to me it is pretty clear the
project will not do that (and I appreciate the decision).
We have to deal with supporting OpenBSD, not trying to shrink the project.

Luca

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Re: Request for Funding our Electricity

Gregor Best
In reply to this post by Franchini Fabien
On Wed, Jan 15, 2014 at 09:55:04PM +0000, Franchini Fabien wrote:
> [...]
> I suggest to write a letter to theses companies who are known to using OpenBSD
> or other product-related like OpenSSH. In this letter we can explain (as the first
> post from Theo) our issue. I'm sure they can give us an hand if they know our
> problem. And in my opinion, ONLY a company can give us a long-term solution.
> [...]

Maybe to inject a further point into this discussion... One of these
companies is Apple. They replaced ipfw with pf in recent releases of
Darwin (see [0]).

Since, with Darwin being Open Source, they seem not entirely against
spending resources on Open Source Software, and they profit in no small
margin from the OpenBSD project and its "satellites" like OpenSSH, they
might be a good recipient for a polite letter in request of help. Not
the least because they could use their assistance in their marketing
("Look how cool we are, we are paying them their electricity!").

> [...]
> Sorry I'm not a native english-speaker and I can't help to write a letter like that
> but I'm sure that's realistic solution.
> [...]

Same for me. Still, if this is not entirely off the table, I'd be
willing to draft something.

> [...]
> Another solution is to approach the *BSD community. FreeBSD are bigger
> than us and how they'll solve these kind of problem ?
> [...]

Fewer architectures, more corporate backing, I'd say.

[0]: https://developer.apple.com/library/mac/documentation/darwin/reference/manpages/man8/ipfw.8.html

--
        Gregor Best

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Re: Request for Funding our Electricity

Kevin Chadwick-2
In reply to this post by Franchini Fabien
The installer or man page asks for donations, how about the ssh login
banner or initial output which might get perhaps 100s of thousands more
eyefall?

--
_______________________________________________________________________

'Write programs that do one thing and do it well. Write programs to work
together. Write programs to handle text streams, because that is a
universal interface'

(Doug McIlroy)

In Other Words - Don't design like polkit or systemd
_______________________________________________________________________

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Re: Request for Funding our Electricity

Han Hwei Woo
Rather than raising prices on CD's/T-Shirts, how about allowing for
subscriptions? I've bought CD's and shirts in the past, but don't do so
regularly simply as it's not something I think/remember to do at every
release. However, I'd gladly signup to purchase a CD and T-Shirt every
release on an ongoing basis.

123456