Request for Funding our Electricity

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Re: Request for Funding our Electricity

Brett Lymn-5
On Fri, Jan 17, 2014 at 07:33:01PM -0700, Theo de Raadt wrote:
>
> What other community has users who commonly run upstream software on
> 64-bit big-endian strict alignment platform with register windows
> adjusting the frames in odd ways, or 32-bit big-endian ones with mutex
> alignment requirements, or a pile of other requirements.
>

NetBSD does but they also went down the path of making cross compilation
easy so you can build all of NetBSD for, say, arm in about 20 minutes on
a modern x86 machine.

> Quite frankly, I am not alone in being sick of people who don't use
> emulators, stepping in to tell we should use emulators.
>

maybe doing a google search for "netbsd anita" will provide some hints
on what can be done with emulators.  They are valuable for some things
even if it isn't as a build environment.

--
Brett Lymn
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Re: Request for Funding our Electricity

Kenneth Gober
In reply to this post by William Ahern-2
I do not doubt that emulators can be useful for some things.  Indeed, I
use them myself when real hardware isn't available.

but emulators have limits -- invariably they are written to emulate certain
things accurately (albeit imperfectly, because all programmers make
mistakes) while other things deemed less important are emulated less
accurately, or simply substituted with ideal mathematical constructs.
lately, I've been running a PDP-11 emulator that doesn't even bother to
simulate memory errors -- every byte of memory in the simulated system
is error-free, and therefore parity error traps are never generated (and the
parity trap handler in the operating system is therefore never exercised).

you are not going to track down a cache coherency bug using an emulator
that doesn't attempt to emulate cache *incoherency*.  really, in order to
know whether emulation is going to be useful, you need to consult an
expert in the particular part of the system you're trying to emulate.  this
means, if you're looking for bugs in an operating system, you need to talk
to people who write operating systems, because they are the experts on
the hardware behaviors that actually matter.  some things that an emulator
faithfully reproduces probably aren't that important to an operating system,
while other things the emulator doesn't bother to accurately simulate may
be critically important.  how can we tell the difference?

if only we had someone with years of experience doing this type of work
who could tell us whether emulation is adequate in this situation or not.

-ken

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Re: Request for Funding our Electricity

Kent R. Spillner-2
In reply to this post by Theo de Raadt
I notice a lot of people have suggested "use an emulator," as if that had never occurred to the OpenBSD developers before, but nobody has volunteered to verify that the available emulators are good enough to actually replace real hardware.

Also, I don't understand why anyone thinks emulation would reduce the power bill.  Even assuming the OpenBSD developers were interested in using emulators it's not like they're just going to install one and then power down the old machines.  The old hardware would still run while they're validating the emulators, and that process would probably take a really long time.  So there's no potential cost savings for a really long time, and in the meantime some of the devs are now distracted from actually working on OpenBSD because they're so busy verifying the accuracy of the emulators.

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Re: Request for Funding our Electricity

Aram Hăvărneanu
In reply to this post by Brett Lymn-5
On Sat, Jan 18, 2014 at 7:53 AM, Brett Lymn <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Fri, Jan 17, 2014 at 07:33:01PM -0700, Theo de Raadt wrote:
>>
>> What other community has users who commonly run upstream software on
>> 64-bit big-endian strict alignment platform with register windows
>> adjusting the frames in odd ways, or 32-bit big-endian ones with mutex
>> alignment requirements, or a pile of other requirements.
>>
>
> NetBSD does but they also went down the path of making cross compilation
> easy so you can build all of NetBSD for, say, arm in about 20 minutes on
> a modern x86 machine.

NetBSD doesn't test their system on all the machines they claim to
support. OpenBSD does. If you have a very old or exotic machine,
you're lucky if NetBSD boots at all, and if it does boot, you're lucky
if it doesn't hardlock in the first minute of operation.

OpenBSD is not like this, the hardware claimed supported is actually
supported. All the people suggesting emulators remember this.

--
Aram Hăvărneanu

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Re: Request for Funding our Electricity

Riccardo Mottola
In reply to this post by Theo de Raadt
Hi,

warning: off-topic and nostalgic.

Theo de Raadt wrote:
> Let's face it.  OpenBSD has this as a bug reducing mechanism
> available, and most other systems do not anymore, having decided to
> chase only the market-chosen architectures.  It is a true many-eyes
> "machined" solution.
>
> What other community has users who commonly run upstream software on
> 64-bit big-endian strict alignment platform with register windows
> adjusting the frames in odd ways, or 32-bit big-endian ones with mutex
> alignment requirements, or a pile of other requirements.
Few. Essentially only the "cousin" NetBSD.. Debian can match a bit, but
very little and it lost "pieces" in the past year.

The nostalgic part is for me that there is no new hardware, that is,
today I feel the landscape is boring. it's all x86-64/x86-32 and perhaps
lately ARM and its variants. SPARC64 still lives, but more as a shadow
from past times.

We used to have new 68Ks, MIPS, PPCs, Alphas, HP-PAs, VAXen.. just to
name a few of the mostt known glories that did run Unix.

I miss the variety of the ecoystem! Where is freedom left, if there is
little choice?

I admit that for the average guy running apache on a server or running a
browser and mail client, the fact that you have register windows or
big/little endian makes no difference. But it took out the fun, the
coolness and everything.

It's the bean-counter mentality and the fear to "think different" that
got us there.

When Apple ditched PPC, most people rejoyced, said "finally" and were
happy to run Windows on their Macs. (I did not).

Anyway, time passes.

Riccardo

[demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type text/x-vcard which had a name of riccardo_mottola.vcf]

MJ
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Re: Request for Funding our Electricity

MJ
In reply to this post by Theo de Raadt
On 18 Jan 2014, at 04.33, Theo de Raadt <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Why is there this effort to convince us to do less?
>

I do not propagate such a train of thought; only said that if you want corporate funding then be prepared to detail your costs and justify each and every one of them as well as satisfying said corporation’s business interest. Not trying to be condescending here at all, but that’s just Logic 101.

The sad and really embarassing fact is that I am not in a position to make any sort of donation at this moment, but I promise you that I will do it just as soon as I can. And I hope it’s the thought that counts more than the amount. I appreciate your work, a lot - I really do.


-mike

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Re: Request for Funding our Electricity

Carl Trachte
In reply to this post by Kent R. Spillner-2
On Sat, Jan 18, 2014 at 4:00 AM, Kent R. Spillner <[hidden email]> wrote:
> I notice a lot of people have suggested "use an emulator," as if that had never occurred to the OpenBSD developers before, but nobody has volunteered to verify that the available emulators are good enough to actually replace real hardware.
>
> Also, I don't understand why anyone thinks emulation would reduce the power bill.  Even assuming the OpenBSD developers were interested in using emulators it's not like they're just going to install one and then power down the old machines.  The old hardware would still run while they're validating the emulators, and that process would probably take a really long time.  So there's no potential cost savings for a really long time, and in the meantime some of the devs are now distracted from actually working on OpenBSD because they're so busy verifying the accuracy of the emulators.
>

Disclaimer:  I'm loathe to comment because I'm fairly ignorant and
late to the OpenBSD party (I've been a user for about 7 years and have
purchased about 5 or 6 CD's and two T-shirts that I can account for).
I volunteered at SCaLE a number of years ago at the OpenBSD booth and
hope to do that again next month.  I just made a donation of an amount
that I could afford to make today.  Against my better judgement, I
will proceed with my input.

1) I don't want the OpenBSD project to change anything - that includes
the way it develops for platforms and the way it raises funds.  My
belief (not proven) is that the intransigent nature of the project and
its personalities yields the operating system that I want - less is
more, beholden to no one, truly open.

2) Send money to the project now.

My 2 cents.  CBT

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Re: Request for Funding our Electricity

Marc Peters-3
In reply to this post by Stefan Wollny
Am 2014-01-17 16:55, schrieb Stefan Wollny:

> Am Fri, 17 Jan 2014 16:08:07 +0100
> schrieb Lars Peter Cleary <[hidden email]>:
>
>> I agree this is a very good idea, instant feedback and gratification.
>>
>> Nevertheless, I've just now donated CAD 100.- and invite everybody
>> else to do the same.
>>
>> Kind regards
>> Lars
>>
>
>
> Yepp - let's face it: Until some bigger company decides to join in and
> supports the project 'we the users' have to take responsibility and
> donate some extra money right now! The developers already donate a lot
> more - time, efforts and know-how.
>
> Besides donating a little amount each month on a subscription basis I
> just donated EUR 120,- additionally. It is a darn good investment!
>
> Cheers,
> STEFAN

I am in with 100€, donated last night and will donate instead of buying
CDs, but maybe i do both at the same time ;)

My company uses SPARC64 and a couple of amd64 for dhcp, named and
nagios. We are planning to use more for VPN concentrators to shift some
load from the internal firewalls (Junipers) at our office.

I am a long term user at home and a not so long term user at my root
server. Hopefully, i will see many more releases in the future.

Marc

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Re: Request for Funding our Electricity

Sia Lang
In reply to this post by Kent R. Spillner-2
> The old hardware would still run while they're validating the emulators,
> and that process would probably take a really long time.
>

If the tests are as good as this project claims them to be, the process
should take exactly one test cycle. If that's the case, then the test
regime suck big time. Logic brother. Logic.

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Re: Request for Funding our Electricity

Theo de Raadt
In reply to this post by Theo de Raadt
> > The old hardware would still run while they're validating the emulators,
> > and that process would probably take a really long time.
> >
>
> If the tests are as good as this project claims them to be, the process
> should take exactly one test cycle. If that's the case, then the test
> regime suck big time. Logic brother. Logic.

the OpenBSD project's purpose is not to test emulators.

As a result, we make no claims about our ability to test emulators.

thanks for the lesson in logic.

MJ
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Re: Request for Funding our Electricity

MJ
In reply to this post by MJ
On 18 Jan 2014, at 20.15, Jan Stary <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Jan 18 16:29:46, [hidden email] wrote:
>> On 18 Jan 2014, at 04.33, Theo de Raadt <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> And I hope it?s the thought that counts more than the amount.
>
> LOL, yes, especially when it comes to bills being paid.
>

You, too, sir, can also take an overdose of fugoff. 1 > 0, no matter how you look at it.

I will do what I can. And do not private message me again without including the rest of the addresses included in the original context. Or are you simply seeking supply?


-mike

MJ
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Re: Request for Funding our Electricity

MJ
On 19 Jan 2014, at 01.36, Jan Stary <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> So, the 1 is the thought, and the 0 is the amount?
>
> Sorry, but your comments were so ridiculous I couldn't help it.
> Saying it's the thougth that counts to people who have
> repeated explicitly they need MONEY.

There you go again with your simple inability to understand what "Reply All"
means.

>
>> I will do what I can. And do not private message me again without including
the rest of the addresses included in the original context. Or are you simply
seeking supply?
>
> ?
> A "supply" of what?
>

No comment.



—Mike

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Re: Request for Funding our Electricity

Kent R. Spillner-2
In reply to this post by Sia Lang
On Jan 18, 2014, at 16:25, Sia Lang <[hidden email]> wrote:

> If the tests are as good as this project claims them to be, the process should take exactly one test cycle. If that's the case, then the test regime suck big time. Logic brother. Logic.


I don't know what tests you're referring to.  OpenBSD builds & runs on real hardware.  The process of doing that continuously on every arch is what exposes the bugs that are common across all archs but only easily triggered on some.

Since you're well versed in logic you clearly understand the implications of moving this process from real hardware to emulators: if the emulators don't expose bugs you can't know if that's because of problems in the emulator itself; if the emulator does expose bugs then you can't know if that's because of bugs in the emulator itself.

So, clearly there would have to be some period of first verifying the emulators themselves, which is not something the OpenBSD developers are doing at the moment.  Those tests don't exist; that test cycle has never happened before.

Brother.

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Re: Request for Funding our Electricity

Denis
In reply to this post by Theo de Raadt
Hi OpenBSD team,

Sorry to bring more of those annoying "new" ideas, but I think that might
help. I will be brief :-)


---------------------------------------
1. "Branded" hosting by OpenBSD project

I will be first in line to pay 2x of what I am paying now to host my
domain on OpenBSD platform in Canada, knowing that it is looked after (or at
least periodically checked) by core developers.

---------------------------------------
2. "Security reinforcement" of Sun Solaris.

Oracle seems bleeding when it comes to get their OS over the security audit
lines etc. If approached properly, nobody (even Oracle) should refuse paid
help of a team of highly professional security experts, running their own
OS for 20 years as portfolio :-)

Sun Solaris is a good platform. If lucky and persistent, you may help it to
become better, get rich in the process and get enough money to pay OBSD
power bill :-) (And still hacking on big-endian platform in the process!)


-------------
3. Question

Is it possible that OpenBSD has finally "grown too big"? So it may be time to
turn it into more commercial enterprise? If it is the case - I am sincerely
glad for all of you, guys!

I think this "power situation" :-) may be a chance to all of us, OpenBSD
users, to see it rise and shine even more?

May be in 10 years there will be no Windows and every PC sold will proudly
carry Puffy logo on the side panel?

It would be a great world, I would even stop thinking about the retirement
then :-))

Please stay on top of your game, all of you - OpenBSD project members!
You are great smart people and you will get through this, stronger and better.

I do hope.

--
Sincerely yours,
Denis
=====
The Bible for command line people.
http://www.read-and-think.org/kjv.html
=====

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Re: Request for Funding our Electricity

Marc Espie-2
In reply to this post by Theo de Raadt
Let me be blunt about this: we already have quite enough on our plates
already.

I, for one, have a TODO list that reaches probably 10 years or more ahead.


Besides openssh, if you *do* use OpenBSD, contributing helps the project.

Speaking for myself, if you do appreciate:
- having binary packages that work
- having a parallel make that works
- having signed packages in the very near future
- having kde3 and kde4 built by default

then consider making a donation.

A *large* part of that work is made possible, and better, by the build
machines at Theo.  I've been spending *a lot of time* working on parallel
builds, and builds on clusters, between make, and dpb.

You guys got to realize that   actual builds, on real hardware, find *a lot
of bugs*. In particular, missing dependencies in Makefiles and variations of
these.   These bugs are often *highly* timing-dependent.  Having fast machines
with slow disks, slow machines with fast disks, single processor oldies,
multi-processor new things, 32 bit machines, 64 bit machines... every single
new combination  will exercise the build in a different way, and find new
bugs.

(yes, there are bugs that are pmap dependent, so that if you reorganize the
way you handle memory, which happens "naturally" on some exotic arches, you're
ways more likely to meet them)

Consider this: we introduced parallel make around 2007. We're still finding
concurrency issues in parts of the tree.

Likewise, dpb is more than 3 years old.  It helped weed out some NFS issues.
It helped fix a very nasty race (and stupid) race condition in ld.so/ldconfig
(that one was a completely MI error). It still helps finding hidden
dependencies... 3 YEARS.

Having "interesting" architectures helps finding memory allocation and
alignment errors, which tend to be noticed WAAAYS earlier on sparc, but tend
to affect everything...


I've seen some disparaging comment about our quality process.

Well, speaking from a ports tree perspective, we have to shovel after
upstream... you have no idea about the smell.

Put things in perspective. There are about 20 gigabytes of *compressed
source code* in the ports tree.  We're doing our best to make it work.
But it's nowhere near perfect.   Outfits with ways more resources than us
like redhat, debian, or google don't manage to do that.  How would we ?..

I could go on and on...

I'm mostly a developer. I already make the effort to pimp myself and go to
conferences to present my work.   I'm already donating a huge amount of
personal *time* to the project.   Now you guys want us to "justify" our
work some more and to spend more *time* doing paid consulting work besides
the project ?

Speaking for myself, do you realize how far behind I am on my todo-list
already ?  If I get more time that I want to spend on OpenBSD-related stuff,
where should my priority be ?..


as for asking for money, well, let's put that in the BSD spirit.

You guys do what you want. You're definitely NOT obligated to pay anything.

But if Theo has to shut down his rack, you're going to lose *big time* on
what's being done within the project.

"Gambling" that some other outfit may pick it up is just that, gambling.
I wouldn't put my money on it. For one thing, I don't know any other
obnoxious paranoid guy who would ride my back as often as Theo does, and
force me to write better code. :)

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Re: Request for Funding our Electricity

Martin Schröder
In reply to this post by Denis
2014/1/19 Denis <[hidden email]>:
> I will be first in line to pay 2x of what I am paying now to host my
> domain on OpenBSD platform in Canada, knowing that it is looked after (or at
> least periodically checked) by core developers.

You want the developers to stop developing.

> ---------------------------------------
> 2. "Security reinforcement" of Sun Solaris.
>
> Oracle seems bleeding when it comes to get their OS over the security audit
> lines etc. If approached properly, nobody (even Oracle) should refuse paid
> help of a team of highly professional security experts, running their own
> OS for 20 years as portfolio :-)

You want the developers to stop developing OpenBSD.

Go away.

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Re: Request for Funding our Electricity

Kevin Chadwick-2
In reply to this post by MJ
previously on this list MJ contributed:

> >> And I hope it?s the thought that counts more than the amount.  
> >

I guess it doesn't 'count' right now but does mean more and count more
if he ever becomes rich.

> > LOL, yes, especially when it comes to bills being paid.

Maybe that's a stark reality but also a very cold objective opinion
possibly brought out due to MJ's other comments with much of the
discussion missing? He alledgedly donated when his usual logic would
think that he couldn't afford to.

--
_______________________________________________________________________

'Write programs that do one thing and do it well. Write programs to work
together. Write programs to handle text streams, because that is a
universal interface'

(Doug McIlroy)

In Other Words - Don't design like polkit or systemd
_______________________________________________________________________

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Re: Request for Funding our Electricity

Jeff O'Neal
In reply to this post by Denis
On Sun, Jan 19, 2014 at 1:09 AM, Denis <[hidden email]> wrote:

> ---------------------------------------
> 1. "Branded" hosting by OpenBSD project
>
> I will be first in line to pay 2x of what I am paying now to host my
> domain on OpenBSD platform in Canada, knowing that it is looked after (or
> at
> least periodically checked) by core developers.
>
> ---------------------------------------
>
> No no you do not want this. I truly respect the OpenBSD Devs and I am sure
some of them run very successful production servers. However they are Devs,
its a totally different mindset than production support. Some switch very
quickly between the two, some do not.

Keep the Devs developing. Stop trying to reinvent this wheel. This is a
very successful project, probably more than than a few outside the core
team now.  OpenBSD code is everywhere.

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Re: Request for Funding our Electricity

Stefan Wollny-2
Am Mon, 20 Jan 2014 06:32:45 -0800
schrieb "Jeff O'Neal" <[hidden email]>:

> On Sun, Jan 19, 2014 at 1:09 AM, Denis <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
> > ---------------------------------------
> > 1. "Branded" hosting by OpenBSD project
> >
> > I will be first in line to pay 2x of what I am paying now to host my
> > domain on OpenBSD platform in Canada, knowing that it is looked
> > after (or at
> > least periodically checked) by core developers.
> >
> > ---------------------------------------
> >
> > No no you do not want this. I truly respect the OpenBSD Devs and I
> > am sure
> some of them run very successful production servers. However they are
> Devs, its a totally different mindset than production support. Some
> switch very quickly between the two, some do not.
>
> Keep the Devs developing. Stop trying to reinvent this wheel. This is
> a very successful project, probably more than than a few outside the
> core team now.  OpenBSD code is everywhere.
>

Full ACK!

Is it _really_ this hard to get? The developers behind our favourite OS
need the help of 'us the users' - not funny proposals, but MONEY. NOW!
Full stop.

OpenBSD get's us going - now it is time for us to keep the project
running!

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