Request for Funding our Electricity

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Request for Funding our Electricity

Theo de Raadt
Hi everyone.

The OpenBSD project uses a lot of electricity for running the
development and build machines.  A number of logistical reasons
prevents us from moving the machines to another location which might
offer space/power for free, so let's not allow the conversation to go
that way.

We are looking for a Canadian company who will take on our electrical
expenses -- on their books, rather than on our books.  We would be
happiest to find someone who will do this on an annual recurring
basis.

That way the various OpenBSD efforts can be supported, yet written off
as an off-site operations cost by such a company.  If we reduce this
cost, it will leave more money for other parts of the project.

We think that a Canadian company is the best choice for accounting
reasons.  If a company in some other jurisdiction feels they can also
do this successfully, we'd be very happy to hear from them as well.

I am not going to disclose the actual numbers here.  Please contact me
for details if serious.

Thanks.

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Re: Request for Funding our Electricity

Theo de Raadt
I am resending this request for funding our electricity bills because
it is not yet resolved.

We really need even more funding beyond that, because otherwise all of
this is simply unsustainable.  This request is the smallest we can
make.

-------

Hi everyone.

The OpenBSD project uses a lot of electricity for running the
development and build machines.  A number of logistical reasons
prevents us from moving the machines to another location which might
offer space/power for free, so let's not allow the conversation to go
that way.

We are looking for a Canadian company who will take on our electrical
expenses -- on their books, rather than on our books.  We would be
happiest to find someone who will do this on an annual recurring
basis.

That way the various OpenBSD efforts can be supported, yet written off
as an off-site operations cost by such a company.  If we reduce this
cost, it will leave more money for other parts of the project.

We think that a Canadian company is the best choice for accounting
reasons.  If a company in some other jurisdiction feels they can also
do this successfully, we'd be very happy to hear from them as well.

I am not going to disclose the actual numbers here.  Please contact me
for details if serious.

Thanks.

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Re: Request for Funding our Electricity

Bob Beck
   Just to bring this issue back to the forefront.

In light of shrinking funding, we do need to look for a source to
cover project expenses.  If need be the OpenBSD Foundation can be
involved in receiving donations to cover project electrical costs.

But the fact is right now, OpenBSD will shut down if we do not have
the funding to keep the lights on.

If you or a company you know are able to assist us, it would be
greatly appreciated, but right now we are looking at a significant
funding shortfall for the upcoming year - Meaning the project won't be
able to cover 20 thousand dollars in electrical expenses before being
able to use money for other things. That sort of situation is not
sustainable.




On Fri, Dec 20, 2013 at 5:08 PM, Theo de Raadt <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I am resending this request for funding our electricity bills because
> it is not yet resolved.
>
> We really need even more funding beyond that, because otherwise all of
> this is simply unsustainable.  This request is the smallest we can
> make.
>
> -------
>
> Hi everyone.
>
> The OpenBSD project uses a lot of electricity for running the
> development and build machines.  A number of logistical reasons
> prevents us from moving the machines to another location which might
> offer space/power for free, so let's not allow the conversation to go
> that way.
>
> We are looking for a Canadian company who will take on our electrical
> expenses -- on their books, rather than on our books.  We would be
> happiest to find someone who will do this on an annual recurring
> basis.
>
> That way the various OpenBSD efforts can be supported, yet written off
> as an off-site operations cost by such a company.  If we reduce this
> cost, it will leave more money for other parts of the project.
>
> We think that a Canadian company is the best choice for accounting
> reasons.  If a company in some other jurisdiction feels they can also
> do this successfully, we'd be very happy to hear from them as well.
>
> I am not going to disclose the actual numbers here.  Please contact me
> for details if serious.
>
> Thanks.

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Re: Request for Funding our Electricity

Bob Beck
And actually, if you're reading this, you can help by passing this on
to people you know *off these lists*.

When we post to these mailing lists saying these things we are asking
for your help to get the word out to
people who support open source projects. Those people are not
necessarily here, and often, you (the people
who use it and work with it) need to make the case to them that their
support is important - far better that
explanation comes from you rather than someone they don't know.

-Bob


On Tue, Jan 14, 2014 at 1:03 PM, Bob Beck <[hidden email]> wrote:

>    Just to bring this issue back to the forefront.
>
> In light of shrinking funding, we do need to look for a source to
> cover project expenses.  If need be the OpenBSD Foundation can be
> involved in receiving donations to cover project electrical costs.
>
> But the fact is right now, OpenBSD will shut down if we do not have
> the funding to keep the lights on.
>
> If you or a company you know are able to assist us, it would be
> greatly appreciated, but right now we are looking at a significant
> funding shortfall for the upcoming year - Meaning the project won't be
> able to cover 20 thousand dollars in electrical expenses before being
> able to use money for other things. That sort of situation is not
> sustainable.
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, Dec 20, 2013 at 5:08 PM, Theo de Raadt <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> I am resending this request for funding our electricity bills because
>> it is not yet resolved.
>>
>> We really need even more funding beyond that, because otherwise all of
>> this is simply unsustainable.  This request is the smallest we can
>> make.
>>
>> -------
>>
>> Hi everyone.
>>
>> The OpenBSD project uses a lot of electricity for running the
>> development and build machines.  A number of logistical reasons
>> prevents us from moving the machines to another location which might
>> offer space/power for free, so let's not allow the conversation to go
>> that way.
>>
>> We are looking for a Canadian company who will take on our electrical
>> expenses -- on their books, rather than on our books.  We would be
>> happiest to find someone who will do this on an annual recurring
>> basis.
>>
>> That way the various OpenBSD efforts can be supported, yet written off
>> as an off-site operations cost by such a company.  If we reduce this
>> cost, it will leave more money for other parts of the project.
>>
>> We think that a Canadian company is the best choice for accounting
>> reasons.  If a company in some other jurisdiction feels they can also
>> do this successfully, we'd be very happy to hear from them as well.
>>
>> I am not going to disclose the actual numbers here.  Please contact me
>> for details if serious.
>>
>> Thanks.

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Re: Request for Funding our Electricity

Donald Allen
In reply to this post by Bob Beck
On Tue, Jan 14, 2014 at 3:03 PM, Bob Beck <[hidden email]> wrote:

>    Just to bring this issue back to the forefront.
>
> In light of shrinking funding, we do need to look for a source to
> cover project expenses.  If need be the OpenBSD Foundation can be
> involved in receiving donations to cover project electrical costs.
>
> But the fact is right now, OpenBSD will shut down if we do not have
> the funding to keep the lights on.
>
> If you or a company you know are able to assist us, it would be
> greatly appreciated, but right now we are looking at a significant
> funding shortfall for the upcoming year - Meaning the project won't be
> able to cover 20 thousand dollars in electrical expenses before being
> able to use money for other things. That sort of situation is not
> sustainable.

There's an equation that has to be satisfied here. It has a demand
side and a supply side. You demand a certain amount of electricity and
someone has to supply the money to pay for it. I'm going to be blunt
here, in an effort to be helpful (it's also not foreign to the OpenBSD
style). I get the impression that the demand for electricity is viewed
as a given:  you use what you use and people need to step up and
provide the money to pay for it. If I'm wrong, please say so. But if
I'm right, the demand can be adjusted. Sometimes you need to eat
cornflakes instead of caviar. For example, I've never understood why
this project supports the old architectures it does, considering the
associated costs. The recent discussion of a need for a replacement
Vax for package-building illustrates that.

Perhaps this is an opportunity to reassess the scope of the project
and trim some things that can no longer be justified on a cost-benefit
basis.

If the choice is between shutting the project down and reducing its
scope to something sustainable, it's a no-brainer. This project has
made really significant contributions, both in the obvious area,
security, but also to the art of managing and building complex
software that is reliable. To have it go away rather than trim its
sails in way that acknowledges reality would really be a shame.

/Don Allen

>
>
>
>
> On Fri, Dec 20, 2013 at 5:08 PM, Theo de Raadt <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> I am resending this request for funding our electricity bills because
>> it is not yet resolved.
>>
>> We really need even more funding beyond that, because otherwise all of
>> this is simply unsustainable.  This request is the smallest we can
>> make.
>>
>> -------
>>
>> Hi everyone.
>>
>> The OpenBSD project uses a lot of electricity for running the
>> development and build machines.  A number of logistical reasons
>> prevents us from moving the machines to another location which might
>> offer space/power for free, so let's not allow the conversation to go
>> that way.
>>
>> We are looking for a Canadian company who will take on our electrical
>> expenses -- on their books, rather than on our books.  We would be
>> happiest to find someone who will do this on an annual recurring
>> basis.
>>
>> That way the various OpenBSD efforts can be supported, yet written off
>> as an off-site operations cost by such a company.  If we reduce this
>> cost, it will leave more money for other parts of the project.
>>
>> We think that a Canadian company is the best choice for accounting
>> reasons.  If a company in some other jurisdiction feels they can also
>> do this successfully, we'd be very happy to hear from them as well.
>>
>> I am not going to disclose the actual numbers here.  Please contact me
>> for details if serious.
>>
>> Thanks.

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Re: Request for Funding our Electricity

Theo de Raadt
In reply to this post by Theo de Raadt
> On Tue, Jan 14, 2014 at 3:03 PM, Bob Beck <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >    Just to bring this issue back to the forefront.
> >
> > In light of shrinking funding, we do need to look for a source to
> > cover project expenses.  If need be the OpenBSD Foundation can be
> > involved in receiving donations to cover project electrical costs.
> >
> > But the fact is right now, OpenBSD will shut down if we do not have
> > the funding to keep the lights on.
> >
> > If you or a company you know are able to assist us, it would be
> > greatly appreciated, but right now we are looking at a significant
> > funding shortfall for the upcoming year - Meaning the project won't be
> > able to cover 20 thousand dollars in electrical expenses before being
> > able to use money for other things. That sort of situation is not
> > sustainable.
>
> There's an equation that has to be satisfied here. It has a demand
> side and a supply side. You demand a certain amount of electricity and
> someone has to supply the money to pay for it. I'm going to be blunt
> here, in an effort to be helpful (it's also not foreign to the OpenBSD
> style). I get the impression that the demand for electricity is viewed
> as a given:  you use what you use and people need to step up and
> provide the money to pay for it. If I'm wrong, please say so. But if
> I'm right, the demand can be adjusted. Sometimes you need to eat
> cornflakes instead of caviar.  For example, I've never understood why
> this project supports the old architectures it does, considering the
> associated costs.

The answer to that is not news.

On a regular basis, we find real and serious bugs which affect all
platforms, but they are incidentally made visible on one of the
platforms we run, following that they are fixed.  It is a harsh
reality which static and dynamic analysis tools have not yet resolved.

Now, If you don't realize this is the reason we try to run on the
older platforms, I am sorry but you have really not tried to stay in
the loop of what makes OpenBSD a vibrant ecosystem.  If you aren't in
the loop regarding this, then your mail comes off pretty darn preachy.

> The recent discussion of a need for a replacement
> Vax for package-building illustrates that.

The vaxes being asked for draw almost no power, but it supplies the
same benefits as the other architectures.

Regarding shutting them down, there other social problems.

Yes, we remove about 10 of the architectures.  We'd slowly lose the
developers who like to work on those areas.  They also work in other
areas, but ... I suspect they would another BSD that supports them.

> Perhaps this is an opportunity to reassess the scope of the project
> and trim some things that can no longer be justified on a cost-benefit
> basis.

And maybe we've been doing that assessment continually for two
decades.

> If the choice is between shutting the project down and reducing its
> scope to something sustainable, it's a no-brainer. This project has
> made really significant contributions, both in the obvious area,
> security, but also to the art of managing and building complex
> software that is reliable. To have it go away rather than trim its
> sails in way that acknowledges reality would really be a shame.

This project "has made"?  How about "this project will continue to".

I really love how we keep getting advice.

Anyone want to suggest we hold a bake sale?

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Re: Request for Funding our Electricity

patric conant
How about we hold a bake sale?


On Tue, Jan 14, 2014 at 2:56 PM, Theo de Raadt <[hidden email]>wrote:

> > On Tue, Jan 14, 2014 at 3:03 PM, Bob Beck <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> > >    Just to bring this issue back to the forefront.
> > >
> > > In light of shrinking funding, we do need to look for a source to
> > > cover project expenses.  If need be the OpenBSD Foundation can be
> > > involved in receiving donations to cover project electrical costs.
> > >
> > > But the fact is right now, OpenBSD will shut down if we do not have
> > > the funding to keep the lights on.
> > >
> > > If you or a company you know are able to assist us, it would be
> > > greatly appreciated, but right now we are looking at a significant
> > > funding shortfall for the upcoming year - Meaning the project won't be
> > > able to cover 20 thousand dollars in electrical expenses before being
> > > able to use money for other things. That sort of situation is not
> > > sustainable.
> >
> > There's an equation that has to be satisfied here. It has a demand
> > side and a supply side. You demand a certain amount of electricity and
> > someone has to supply the money to pay for it. I'm going to be blunt
> > here, in an effort to be helpful (it's also not foreign to the OpenBSD
> > style). I get the impression that the demand for electricity is viewed
> > as a given:  you use what you use and people need to step up and
> > provide the money to pay for it. If I'm wrong, please say so. But if
> > I'm right, the demand can be adjusted. Sometimes you need to eat
> > cornflakes instead of caviar.  For example, I've never understood why
> > this project supports the old architectures it does, considering the
> > associated costs.
>
> The answer to that is not news.
>
> On a regular basis, we find real and serious bugs which affect all
> platforms, but they are incidentally made visible on one of the
> platforms we run, following that they are fixed.  It is a harsh
> reality which static and dynamic analysis tools have not yet resolved.
>
> Now, If you don't realize this is the reason we try to run on the
> older platforms, I am sorry but you have really not tried to stay in
> the loop of what makes OpenBSD a vibrant ecosystem.  If you aren't in
> the loop regarding this, then your mail comes off pretty darn preachy.
>
> > The recent discussion of a need for a replacement
> > Vax for package-building illustrates that.
>
> The vaxes being asked for draw almost no power, but it supplies the
> same benefits as the other architectures.
>
> Regarding shutting them down, there other social problems.
>
> Yes, we remove about 10 of the architectures.  We'd slowly lose the
> developers who like to work on those areas.  They also work in other
> areas, but ... I suspect they would another BSD that supports them.
>
> > Perhaps this is an opportunity to reassess the scope of the project
> > and trim some things that can no longer be justified on a cost-benefit
> > basis.
>
> And maybe we've been doing that assessment continually for two
> decades.
>
> > If the choice is between shutting the project down and reducing its
> > scope to something sustainable, it's a no-brainer. This project has
> > made really significant contributions, both in the obvious area,
> > security, but also to the art of managing and building complex
> > software that is reliable. To have it go away rather than trim its
> > sails in way that acknowledges reality would really be a shame.
>
> This project "has made"?  How about "this project will continue to".
>
> I really love how we keep getting advice.
>
> Anyone want to suggest we hold a bake sale?

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Re: Request for Funding our Electricity

Miod Vallat
In reply to this post by Theo de Raadt
> Yes, we remove about 10 of the architectures.  We'd slowly lose the
> developers who like to work on those areas.  They also work in other
> areas, but ... I suspect they would another BSD that supports them.

Darn' tootin'!

> Anyone want to suggest we hold a bake sale?

Make that a lo-carb bake sale.

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Re: Bake Sale

Hendrickson, Kenneth
In reply to this post by Theo de Raadt
--- Theo de Raadt wrote:
> Anyone want to suggest we hold a bake sale?

I understand there is a market for brownies in Colorado and Washington state.

Ken Hendrickson

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Re: Request for Funding our Electricity

Kirill Bychkov
In reply to this post by Bob Beck
On Wed, January 15, 2014 00:03, Bob Beck wrote:

>    Just to bring this issue back to the forefront.
>
> In light of shrinking funding, we do need to look for a source to
> cover project expenses.  If need be the OpenBSD Foundation can be
> involved in receiving donations to cover project electrical costs.
>
> But the fact is right now, OpenBSD will shut down if we do not have
> the funding to keep the lights on.
>
> If you or a company you know are able to assist us, it would be
> greatly appreciated, but right now we are looking at a significant
> funding shortfall for the upcoming year - Meaning the project won't be
> able to cover 20 thousand dollars in electrical expenses before being
> able to use money for other things. That sort of situation is not
> sustainable.
>

Hi. Could we collect this sum on special bank account, to gather correct sum
for covering electricity expenses?
Or OpenBSD Foundation will pay a bill from it's funds?
Simplier - should I send money to Foundation right now or should I wait info
about direct-electricity-expenses-acccount? Unfortunately I can't send $20k,
but if 200 community members send $100 each...
I hope this will help to have another year for searching a company Theo was
mentioning in his irst letter.

>
>
> On Fri, Dec 20, 2013 at 5:08 PM, Theo de Raadt <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>> I am resending this request for funding our electricity bills because
>> it is not yet resolved.
>>
>> We really need even more funding beyond that, because otherwise all of
>> this is simply unsustainable.  This request is the smallest we can
>> make.
>>
>> -------
>>
>> Hi everyone.
>>
>> The OpenBSD project uses a lot of electricity for running the
>> development and build machines.  A number of logistical reasons
>> prevents us from moving the machines to another location which might
>> offer space/power for free, so let's not allow the conversation to go
>> that way.
>>
>> We are looking for a Canadian company who will take on our electrical
>> expenses -- on their books, rather than on our books.  We would be
>> happiest to find someone who will do this on an annual recurring
>> basis.
>>
>> That way the various OpenBSD efforts can be supported, yet written off
>> as an off-site operations cost by such a company.  If we reduce this
>> cost, it will leave more money for other parts of the project.
>>
>> We think that a Canadian company is the best choice for accounting
>> reasons.  If a company in some other jurisdiction feels they can also
>> do this successfully, we'd be very happy to hear from them as well.
>>
>> I am not going to disclose the actual numbers here.  Please contact me
>> for details if serious.
>>
>> Thanks.

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Re: Request for Funding our Electricity

Bob Beck
Kiril, a dedicated one purpose bank account or officially directed
donations are somewhat problematic to a canadian not for profit -
Normally for expenses the foundation supports we simply re-imburse the
individuals for their costs from our funds.

As far as the suggested "donation" meter that's an idea we'd probably
like to put up - as it gets that crowdsourcing type
interest going. But in this case it would likely not be 20K, more like
a 150K yearly goal would be best.


On Tue, Jan 14, 2014 at 2:16 PM, Kirill Bychkov <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Wed, January 15, 2014 00:03, Bob Beck wrote:
>>    Just to bring this issue back to the forefront.
>>
>> In light of shrinking funding, we do need to look for a source to
>> cover project expenses.  If need be the OpenBSD Foundation can be
>> involved in receiving donations to cover project electrical costs.
>>
>> But the fact is right now, OpenBSD will shut down if we do not have
>> the funding to keep the lights on.
>>
>> If you or a company you know are able to assist us, it would be
>> greatly appreciated, but right now we are looking at a significant
>> funding shortfall for the upcoming year - Meaning the project won't be
>> able to cover 20 thousand dollars in electrical expenses before being
>> able to use money for other things. That sort of situation is not
>> sustainable.
>>
>
> Hi. Could we collect this sum on special bank account, to gather correct sum
> for covering electricity expenses?
> Or OpenBSD Foundation will pay a bill from it's funds?
> Simplier - should I send money to Foundation right now or should I wait info
> about direct-electricity-expenses-acccount? Unfortunately I can't send $20k,
> but if 200 community members send $100 each...
> I hope this will help to have another year for searching a company Theo was
> mentioning in his irst letter.
>
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Dec 20, 2013 at 5:08 PM, Theo de Raadt <[hidden email]>
>> wrote:
>>> I am resending this request for funding our electricity bills because
>>> it is not yet resolved.
>>>
>>> We really need even more funding beyond that, because otherwise all of
>>> this is simply unsustainable.  This request is the smallest we can
>>> make.
>>>
>>> -------
>>>
>>> Hi everyone.
>>>
>>> The OpenBSD project uses a lot of electricity for running the
>>> development and build machines.  A number of logistical reasons
>>> prevents us from moving the machines to another location which might
>>> offer space/power for free, so let's not allow the conversation to go
>>> that way.
>>>
>>> We are looking for a Canadian company who will take on our electrical
>>> expenses -- on their books, rather than on our books.  We would be
>>> happiest to find someone who will do this on an annual recurring
>>> basis.
>>>
>>> That way the various OpenBSD efforts can be supported, yet written off
>>> as an off-site operations cost by such a company.  If we reduce this
>>> cost, it will leave more money for other parts of the project.
>>>
>>> We think that a Canadian company is the best choice for accounting
>>> reasons.  If a company in some other jurisdiction feels they can also
>>> do this successfully, we'd be very happy to hear from them as well.
>>>
>>> I am not going to disclose the actual numbers here.  Please contact me
>>> for details if serious.
>>>
>>> Thanks.

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Re: Request for Funding our Electricity

patrick keshishian
In reply to this post by Theo de Raadt
On 1/14/14, Theo de Raadt <[hidden email]> wrote:

>> On Tue, Jan 14, 2014 at 3:03 PM, Bob Beck <[hidden email]>
>> wrote:
>> >    Just to bring this issue back to the forefront.
>> >
>> > In light of shrinking funding, we do need to look for a source to
>> > cover project expenses.  If need be the OpenBSD Foundation can be
>> > involved in receiving donations to cover project electrical costs.
>> >
>> > But the fact is right now, OpenBSD will shut down if we do not have
>> > the funding to keep the lights on.
>> >
>> > If you or a company you know are able to assist us, it would be
>> > greatly appreciated, but right now we are looking at a significant
>> > funding shortfall for the upcoming year - Meaning the project won't be
>> > able to cover 20 thousand dollars in electrical expenses before being
>> > able to use money for other things. That sort of situation is not
>> > sustainable.
>>
>> There's an equation that has to be satisfied here. It has a demand
>> side and a supply side. You demand a certain amount of electricity and
>> someone has to supply the money to pay for it. I'm going to be blunt
>> here, in an effort to be helpful (it's also not foreign to the OpenBSD
>> style). I get the impression that the demand for electricity is viewed
>> as a given:  you use what you use and people need to step up and
>> provide the money to pay for it. If I'm wrong, please say so. But if
>> I'm right, the demand can be adjusted. Sometimes you need to eat
>> cornflakes instead of caviar.  For example, I've never understood why
>> this project supports the old architectures it does, considering the
>> associated costs.
>
> The answer to that is not news.
>
> On a regular basis, we find real and serious bugs which affect all
> platforms, but they are incidentally made visible on one of the
> platforms we run, following that they are fixed.  It is a harsh
> reality which static and dynamic analysis tools have not yet resolved.
>
> Now, If you don't realize this is the reason we try to run on the
> older platforms, I am sorry but you have really not tried to stay in
> the loop of what makes OpenBSD a vibrant ecosystem.  If you aren't in
> the loop regarding this, then your mail comes off pretty darn preachy.
>
>> The recent discussion of a need for a replacement
>> Vax for package-building illustrates that.
>
> The vaxes being asked for draw almost no power, but it supplies the
> same benefits as the other architectures.
>
> Regarding shutting them down, there other social problems.
>
> Yes, we remove about 10 of the architectures.  We'd slowly lose the
> developers who like to work on those areas.  They also work in other
> areas, but ... I suspect they would another BSD that supports them.
>
>> Perhaps this is an opportunity to reassess the scope of the project
>> and trim some things that can no longer be justified on a cost-benefit
>> basis.
>
> And maybe we've been doing that assessment continually for two
> decades.
>
>> If the choice is between shutting the project down and reducing its
>> scope to something sustainable, it's a no-brainer. This project has
>> made really significant contributions, both in the obvious area,
>> security, but also to the art of managing and building complex
>> software that is reliable. To have it go away rather than trim its
>> sails in way that acknowledges reality would really be a shame.
>
> This project "has made"?  How about "this project will continue to".
>
> I really love how we keep getting advice.

I think you misunderstood the concept of supply and demand
pointed out in the message you replied to. "We" are so used to
leeching off the project, and for so long, that we feel entitled to
/demand/ that you and your project /supply/ what we feel entitled
to. Because of our dependence to this entitlement feeling, should
anything threaten the supply of what you produce, must not be
allowed. Even if "we" should need to go to our government
representatives to address this threat!

I can see it now: OBSD=OBama Software Distribution. It will
be provided to everyone and anyone, whether or not they feel
they need it. If anyone chooses to not use it, they still will be
charged a "fee" for the CD set they don't need now, but /might/
need in the future. This program will be sustained by inflated
CD prices (say $750 a copy), and by cutting bits of the project
which will be deemed unnecessary, such as old and obsolete
hardware support (VAX, Sparc, ...), stickers will be discontinued,
OpenSSH will be removed from base; let's be honest about it,
you really need encryption if you have something to hide (from
the government).

I understand they now have worked out all the glitches in their
web-site, which will now host the new OBSD.

Cheers,
--patrick

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Re: Bake Sale

Jay Hart-2
In reply to this post by Hendrickson, Kenneth
>> --- Theo de Raadt wrote:
>> Anyone want to suggest we hold a bake sale?
>
> I understand there is a market for brownies in Colorado and Washington state.
>
> Ken Hendrickson
>
>

Not if you are a Fed!!!!!!

Jay

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Re: Request for Funding our Electricity

Erik Mitchell
In reply to this post by Theo de Raadt
> Anyone want to suggest we hold a bake sale?

I will take this opportunity to suggest a probably bad idea but one
that crossed my mind nonetheless.

I have not actively kept up with this list so forgive me if this can't
be done, or isn't in line with the community's values, but what about
doing a Kickstarter campaign for each OpenBSD release? Varying levels
of support could get the different levels of swag that are already
distributed: CD/DVD distributions, t-shirts, stickers, etc...

One could also just contribute $10-$20 to be a supporter, and receive
nothing material.

Nodejitsu recently raised $256k with their Scalenpm campaign. I would
imagine there are enough people out there who care about OpenBSD too
whereby a significant amount of money could be raised.

-Erik

--
Erik K. Mitchell
[hidden email]

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Re: Request for Funding our Electricity

Theo de Raadt
In reply to this post by Theo de Raadt
> > Anyone want to suggest we hold a bake sale?
>
> I will take this opportunity to suggest a probably bad idea but one
> that crossed my mind nonetheless.
>
> I have not actively kept up with this list so forgive me if this can't
> be done, or isn't in line with the community's values, but what about
> doing a Kickstarter campaign for each OpenBSD release? Varying levels
> of support could get the different levels of swag that are already
> distributed: CD/DVD distributions, t-shirts, stickers, etc...

The problem with this model is that once again
    - we are the ones who need to supply more;
    - we need to promising the goods;
    - we are the ones who need to invest;
    - we are supposed to do the extra work;
    - we are supposed to take time away from coding.

Don't we do enough?

Regarding the swag.  The entire OpenBSD project now probably gets 1/4
of revenue out of CD, tshirt sales, but in this model we'd have to
give much of that out to people who contribute, and it will probably
be less.

Remember to add shipping, now paid on this end, instead of by the buyer.

> One could also just contribute $10-$20 to be a supporter, and receive
> nothing material.

$20?  To break even with the above issues, call it $100 minimum.  Does
it still work?  Is there evidence?

And once this turn process on, if it doesn't work, are we even more dead
in the water?

> Nodejitsu recently raised $256k with their Scalenpm campaign. I would
> imagine there are enough people out there who care about OpenBSD too
> whereby a significant amount of money could be raised.

Would that work every year?

I doubt mindshare of this sort works repeatedly.

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Re: Request for Funding our Electricity

Kevin Chadwick-2
In reply to this post by Theo de Raadt
previously on this list Theo contributed:

> The OpenBSD project uses a lot of electricity for running the
> development and build machines.  A number of logistical reasons
> prevents us from moving the machines to another location which might
> offer space/power for free, so let's not allow the conversation to go
> that way.

Especially if you have some land in Canada and manage to raise a
significant bit extra, a Peltier energy harvesting system due to
the difference in surface and sub-surface land temperature might be
worth looking at to help balance the books longer term.

The Aston Martin plant runs off one entirely but cost a fortune to
drill a deep bore hole to get a large temperature difference, but then
their building is huge and produces cars with enough power to run a
town.

Alternatively a small scale system building it into a wall to get the
difference between the cold Canadian winter outside and warm inside
might work well.


--
_______________________________________________________________________

'Write programs that do one thing and do it well. Write programs to work
together. Write programs to handle text streams, because that is a
universal interface'

(Doug McIlroy)

In Other Words - Don't design like polkit or systemd
_______________________________________________________________________

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Re: Request for Funding our Electricity

Sean Howard-2
In reply to this post by Erik Mitchell
There's a lot of reasons why I want to avoid this conversation, but since
it's started, I'd say look at http://www.patreon.com/ for a crowdfunding
model - much nicer than Kickstarters. (and a way to get people to
formalize their buying of CD sets every release)

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Re: Request for Funding our Electricity

Kent R. Spillner-2
In reply to this post by Theo de Raadt
On Tue, Jan 14, 2014 at 03:24:00PM -0700, Theo de Raadt wrote:

> > I will take this opportunity to suggest a probably bad idea but one
> > that crossed my mind nonetheless.
> >
> > I have not actively kept up with this list so forgive me if this can't
> > be done, or isn't in line with the community's values, but what about
> > doing a Kickstarter campaign for each OpenBSD release? Varying levels
> > of support could get the different levels of swag that are already
> > distributed: CD/DVD distributions, t-shirts, stickers, etc...
>
> The problem with this model is that once again
>     - we are the ones who need to supply more;
>     - we need to promising the goods;
>     - we are the ones who need to invest;
>     - we are supposed to do the extra work;
>     - we are supposed to take time away from coding.

Who would back the KickStarter but be unwilling to donate directly to
the project?  The community is already here, the project already accepts
donations.  I don't see what KickStarter offers besides the hipster cred
of running a KickStarter, and hipster cred doesn't pay electrical bills.

Anyways, talk is cheap so I'm going to go make a donation now.  If everyone
reading this did the same this thread could die, and OpenBSD wouldn't.

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Re: Request for Funding our Electricity

Ted Unangst-6
In reply to this post by Theo de Raadt
On Tue, Jan 14, 2014 at 16:12, Erik Mitchell wrote:

> I have not actively kept up with this list so forgive me if this can't
> be done, or isn't in line with the community's values, but what about
> doing a Kickstarter campaign for each OpenBSD release? Varying levels
> of support could get the different levels of swag that are already
> distributed: CD/DVD distributions, t-shirts, stickers, etc...
>
> One could also just contribute $10-$20 to be a supporter, and receive
> nothing material.

You can do all this (and more!) on the website today. And you get
soonish delivery without having to wait until a thousand other people
donate. And the project doesn't have to pay out a cut to yet another
middleman.

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Re: Request for Funding our Electricity

Nicolai-8
In reply to this post by Kent R. Spillner-2
On Tue, Jan 14, 2014 at 04:56:14PM -0600, Kent R. Spillner wrote:

> Anyways, talk is cheap so I'm going to go make a donation now.  If everyone
> reading this did the same this thread could die, and OpenBSD wouldn't.

I just did the same, $100 via the OpenBSD Foundation.  Feels good.  I'm
super excited about the 5.5 release, which should be the most amazing in
years.

Options to pay with Paypal, credit card, check...

http://www.openbsd.org/donations.html

Who else has donated today?

Nicolai

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