Re: The eternal great desktop thread

classic Classic list List threaded Threaded
7 messages Options
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: The eternal great desktop thread

chohag
[including ports@]

Theo de Raadt writes:

> [hidden email] wrote:
>
> > I recently posted a new CPAN module to ports@ which wraps pledge and
> > unveil. There was a bit of a balls up because as a sysadmin I'm not
> > really used to group development and what I've done has usually been in
> > a corporate environment but in the end a complete tarball was posted.
>
> Well -- I do not make decisions in the ports environment.
>
> Other people lead that effort, and make decisions after weighing the
> benefits and potential costs.

The question ultimately is how to I know if I'm completely finished with
providing this port?

If I need to do something more or promise on-going maintenance to get
this minor port included in the big picture, that is to say: in
OpenBSD's public CVS repository, then I'm happy to get it done. If it's
enough to send in a tarball (as I've done already) and let the current
ports maintainers take over then I'm (more than) happy to do that.

Is "send a tarball to ports@ and forget about it" enough?

Matthew

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: The eternal great desktop thread

Job Snijders-2
On Sat, 11 May 2019 at 05:36, <[hidden email]> wrote:

> [including ports@]
>
> Theo de Raadt writes:
> > [hidden email] wrote:
> >
> > > I recently posted a new CPAN module to ports@ which wraps pledge and
> > > unveil. There was a bit of a balls up because as a sysadmin I'm not
> > > really used to group development and what I've done has usually been in
> > > a corporate environment but in the end a complete tarball was posted.
> >
> > Well -- I do not make decisions in the ports environment.
> >
> > Other people lead that effort, and make decisions after weighing the
> > benefits and potential costs.
>
> The question ultimately is how to I know if I'm completely finished with
> providing this port?
>
> If I need to do something more or promise on-going maintenance to get
> this minor port included in the big picture, that is to say: in
> OpenBSD's public CVS repository, then I'm happy to get it done. If it's
> enough to send in a tarball (as I've done already) and let the current
> ports maintainers take over then I'm (more than) happy to do that.
>
> Is "send a tarball to ports@ and forget about it" enough?



You should consider becoming part of the process, one of the most valuable
currencies you can give to the project is a degree of continuity.

To phrase it differently, “fire and forget” is rarely a sustainable
approach.

Kind regards,

Job
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: The eternal great desktop thread

chohag
Job Snijders writes:
> You should consider becoming part of the process, one of the most valuable
> currencies you can give to the project is a degree of continuity.
>
> To phrase it differently, =E2=80=9Cfire and forget=E2=80=9D is rarely a sus=
> tainable
> approach.

Well as suggested I'm not going to make promises to hang aroud if I'm
not sure I can keep them but I have computers and they have to run
something and so far OpenBSD is the only thing I've found which isn't
shit. Maybe in a while I'll still be here.

Meanwhile what little I've made so far (a port of a CPAN module...)
is yours to do with as you wish and as I'm at worst vaguely
responsible for this perl module I'll do my best to keep an eye on
upstream etc. and update when appropriate.

I'll see how things go. OpenBSD's a fantastic project and I hope I can
fit it in to everything in a way which benefits it rather than only me.

In any case thanks for the fantastic work! You guys keep me and all of
us safe.

Cheers,

Matthew

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: The eternal great desktop thread

Theo de Raadt-2
In reply to this post by chohag
>> > I recently posted a new CPAN module to ports@ which wraps pledge and
>> > unveil. There was a bit of a balls up because as a sysadmin I'm not
>> > really used to group development and what I've done has usually been in
>> > a corporate environment but in the end a complete tarball was posted.
>>
>> Well -- I do not make decisions in the ports environment.
>>
>> Other people lead that effort, and make decisions after weighing the
>> benefits and potential costs.
>
>The question ultimately is how to I know if I'm completely finished with
>providing this port?

Ports tree.

I don't know.  And I don't judge it.

Meaning you could ask the Pope and get a similar answer.

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: The eternal great desktop thread

chohag
Theo de Raadt writes:

> >> > I recently posted a new CPAN module to ports@ which wraps pledge and
> >> > unveil. There was a bit of a balls up because as a sysadmin I'm not
> >> > really used to group development and what I've done has usually been in
> >> > a corporate environment but in the end a complete tarball was posted.
> >>
> >> Well -- I do not make decisions in the ports environment.
> >>
> >> Other people lead that effort, and make decisions after weighing the
> >> benefits and potential costs.
> >
> >The question ultimately is how to I know if I'm completely finished with
> >providing this port?
>
> Ports tree.
>
> I don't know.  And I don't judge it.
>
> Meaning you could ask the Pope and get a similar answer.

Somehow I must have grokked that even through last night's drunken haze
which I expect is why I cc'd ports@.

The question remains but now with a wider audience - I've posted a port
to the mailing list, what next? I'm happy to leave it in the porters'
collective lap or begin to take on some responsibility myself; I'm just
not sure what to do with it.

Incidentally it's useful to know that the split between base and ports
is/can be as distinct between the developers as it is between the
binaries. Thanks for the effort.

Cheers,

Matthew

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: The eternal great desktop thread

Ingo Schwarze
Hi Matthew,

[hidden email] wrote on Sat, May 11, 2019 at 04:18:07PM +0300:

> The question remains but now with a wider audience -
> I've posted a port to the mailing list, what next?

Wait for feedback.

> I'm happy to leave it in the porters' collective lap or begin
> to take on some responsibility myself; I'm just not sure what
> to do with it.

Any of the following may happen next:

 a) A ports developer decides the port is useful and mature
    and commits it, with or without minor changes.

 b) Somebody thinks it is potentially useful but requires
    more work.  That person will ask you to do specific work
    on it and resubmit once you have done that.

 c) You get no feedback whatsoever.

 d) A ports developer decides the software is inappropriate
    for the ports tree for some reason and explicitely says so.

The outcome d) is relatively rare.  For you, c) is the least
desirable outcome, and it is *not* rare.  It is undesirable
because you won't know the reason:

 ca) Maybe nobody really noticed the submission, it simply fell
     through the cracks.  It might still be a very good port.

 cb) Maybe some noticed, but weren't interested personally
     and had other things to do.  It might still become a port
     if somebody becomes interested.

 cc) Maybe most who noticed considered it a dubious idea,
     but didn't care enough to explicitly oppose it.
     In case somebody finally picks it up, explicit opposition
     might start being discussed, but that's rare (just like d).

Remeber that testing and committing a port requires time and
effort, and more ports are being submitted than porters have
time to deal with.  Even short feedback requires spending some
time.

Personally, i'm in the cb) camp in this case, but that really
doesn't tell you anything useful.

If you submitted a port following the porting guide, all you can
do is wait, then try again after three weeks, after three months,
and after a year, in case you receive no feedback.

> Incidentally it's useful to know that the split between base and ports
> is/can be as distinct between the developers as it is between the
> binaries. Thanks for the effort.

It varies.  Some developers are quite active in both areas, for
example espie@, sthen@, jsg@.  Some have a clear focus on one but
still contribute regularly to the other, for example ajacoutot@
(ports) or myself (base).  Some almost never commit to ports, for
example deraadt@, millert@, jmc@.  Some work almost exclusively on
ports, for example landry@.  Besides, what developers work on
sometimes changes with time.

Yours,
  Ingo

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: The eternal great desktop thread

Stuart Henderson
On 2019/05/11 16:22, Ingo Schwarze wrote:

> Hi Matthew,
>
> [hidden email] wrote on Sat, May 11, 2019 at 04:18:07PM +0300:
>
> > The question remains but now with a wider audience -
> > I've posted a port to the mailing list, what next?
>
> Wait for feedback.
>
> > I'm happy to leave it in the porters' collective lap or begin
> > to take on some responsibility myself; I'm just not sure what
> > to do with it.
>
> Any of the following may happen next:
>
>  a) A ports developer decides the port is useful and mature
>     and commits it, with or without minor changes.
>
>  b) Somebody thinks it is potentially useful but requires
>     more work.  That person will ask you to do specific work
>     on it and resubmit once you have done that.
>
>  c) You get no feedback whatsoever.
>
>  d) A ports developer decides the software is inappropriate
>     for the ports tree for some reason and explicitely says so.
>
> The outcome d) is relatively rare.  For you, c) is the least
> desirable outcome, and it is *not* rare.  It is undesirable
> because you won't know the reason:
>
>  ca) Maybe nobody really noticed the submission, it simply fell
>      through the cracks.  It might still be a very good port.
>
>  cb) Maybe some noticed, but weren't interested personally
>      and had other things to do.  It might still become a port
>      if somebody becomes interested.
>
>  cc) Maybe most who noticed considered it a dubious idea,
>      but didn't care enough to explicitly oppose it.
>      In case somebody finally picks it up, explicit opposition
>      might start being discussed, but that's rare (just like d).
>
> Remeber that testing and committing a port requires time and
> effort, and more ports are being submitted than porters have
> time to deal with.  Even short feedback requires spending some
> time.
>
> Personally, i'm in the cb) camp in this case, but that really
> doesn't tell you anything useful.

For me it's mostly cb) mixed with a little concern that it might bring
extra work to do in the future when handling an update to perl (which
usually already involve a fair bit of work across the ports tree).
or due to changes in the base OS. Especially so if other ports start
depending on this.

For a port which is somewhat closely tied to OpenBSD base, I'm really
a lot happier if it has a maintainer who is reasonably likely to
stick around and help with updates in future..