Re: Request for Funding our Electricity

classic Classic list List threaded Threaded
41 messages Options
123
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Request for Funding our Electricity

Bob Beck
   Just to bring this issue back to the forefront.

In light of shrinking funding, we do need to look for a source to
cover project expenses.  If need be the OpenBSD Foundation can be
involved in receiving donations to cover project electrical costs.

But the fact is right now, OpenBSD will shut down if we do not have
the funding to keep the lights on.

If you or a company you know are able to assist us, it would be
greatly appreciated, but right now we are looking at a significant
funding shortfall for the upcoming year - Meaning the project won't be
able to cover 20 thousand dollars in electrical expenses before being
able to use money for other things. That sort of situation is not
sustainable.




On Fri, Dec 20, 2013 at 5:08 PM, Theo de Raadt <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I am resending this request for funding our electricity bills because
> it is not yet resolved.
>
> We really need even more funding beyond that, because otherwise all of
> this is simply unsustainable.  This request is the smallest we can
> make.
>
> -------
>
> Hi everyone.
>
> The OpenBSD project uses a lot of electricity for running the
> development and build machines.  A number of logistical reasons
> prevents us from moving the machines to another location which might
> offer space/power for free, so let's not allow the conversation to go
> that way.
>
> We are looking for a Canadian company who will take on our electrical
> expenses -- on their books, rather than on our books.  We would be
> happiest to find someone who will do this on an annual recurring
> basis.
>
> That way the various OpenBSD efforts can be supported, yet written off
> as an off-site operations cost by such a company.  If we reduce this
> cost, it will leave more money for other parts of the project.
>
> We think that a Canadian company is the best choice for accounting
> reasons.  If a company in some other jurisdiction feels they can also
> do this successfully, we'd be very happy to hear from them as well.
>
> I am not going to disclose the actual numbers here.  Please contact me
> for details if serious.
>
> Thanks.
>

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Request for Funding our Electricity

Bob Beck
And actually, if you're reading this, you can help by passing this on
to people you know *off these lists*.

When we post to these mailing lists saying these things we are asking
for your help to get the word out to
people who support open source projects. Those people are not
necessarily here, and often, you (the people
who use it and work with it) need to make the case to them that their
support is important - far better that
explanation comes from you rather than someone they don't know.

-Bob


On Tue, Jan 14, 2014 at 1:03 PM, Bob Beck <[hidden email]> wrote:

>    Just to bring this issue back to the forefront.
>
> In light of shrinking funding, we do need to look for a source to
> cover project expenses.  If need be the OpenBSD Foundation can be
> involved in receiving donations to cover project electrical costs.
>
> But the fact is right now, OpenBSD will shut down if we do not have
> the funding to keep the lights on.
>
> If you or a company you know are able to assist us, it would be
> greatly appreciated, but right now we are looking at a significant
> funding shortfall for the upcoming year - Meaning the project won't be
> able to cover 20 thousand dollars in electrical expenses before being
> able to use money for other things. That sort of situation is not
> sustainable.
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, Dec 20, 2013 at 5:08 PM, Theo de Raadt <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> I am resending this request for funding our electricity bills because
>> it is not yet resolved.
>>
>> We really need even more funding beyond that, because otherwise all of
>> this is simply unsustainable.  This request is the smallest we can
>> make.
>>
>> -------
>>
>> Hi everyone.
>>
>> The OpenBSD project uses a lot of electricity for running the
>> development and build machines.  A number of logistical reasons
>> prevents us from moving the machines to another location which might
>> offer space/power for free, so let's not allow the conversation to go
>> that way.
>>
>> We are looking for a Canadian company who will take on our electrical
>> expenses -- on their books, rather than on our books.  We would be
>> happiest to find someone who will do this on an annual recurring
>> basis.
>>
>> That way the various OpenBSD efforts can be supported, yet written off
>> as an off-site operations cost by such a company.  If we reduce this
>> cost, it will leave more money for other parts of the project.
>>
>> We think that a Canadian company is the best choice for accounting
>> reasons.  If a company in some other jurisdiction feels they can also
>> do this successfully, we'd be very happy to hear from them as well.
>>
>> I am not going to disclose the actual numbers here.  Please contact me
>> for details if serious.
>>
>> Thanks.
>>

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Request for Funding our Electricity

Donald Allen
In reply to this post by Bob Beck
On Tue, Jan 14, 2014 at 3:03 PM, Bob Beck <[hidden email]> wrote:

>    Just to bring this issue back to the forefront.
>
> In light of shrinking funding, we do need to look for a source to
> cover project expenses.  If need be the OpenBSD Foundation can be
> involved in receiving donations to cover project electrical costs.
>
> But the fact is right now, OpenBSD will shut down if we do not have
> the funding to keep the lights on.
>
> If you or a company you know are able to assist us, it would be
> greatly appreciated, but right now we are looking at a significant
> funding shortfall for the upcoming year - Meaning the project won't be
> able to cover 20 thousand dollars in electrical expenses before being
> able to use money for other things. That sort of situation is not
> sustainable.

There's an equation that has to be satisfied here. It has a demand
side and a supply side. You demand a certain amount of electricity and
someone has to supply the money to pay for it. I'm going to be blunt
here, in an effort to be helpful (it's also not foreign to the OpenBSD
style). I get the impression that the demand for electricity is viewed
as a given:  you use what you use and people need to step up and
provide the money to pay for it. If I'm wrong, please say so. But if
I'm right, the demand can be adjusted. Sometimes you need to eat
cornflakes instead of caviar. For example, I've never understood why
this project supports the old architectures it does, considering the
associated costs. The recent discussion of a need for a replacement
Vax for package-building illustrates that.

Perhaps this is an opportunity to reassess the scope of the project
and trim some things that can no longer be justified on a cost-benefit
basis.

If the choice is between shutting the project down and reducing its
scope to something sustainable, it's a no-brainer. This project has
made really significant contributions, both in the obvious area,
security, but also to the art of managing and building complex
software that is reliable. To have it go away rather than trim its
sails in way that acknowledges reality would really be a shame.

/Don Allen

>
>
>
>
> On Fri, Dec 20, 2013 at 5:08 PM, Theo de Raadt <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> I am resending this request for funding our electricity bills because
>> it is not yet resolved.
>>
>> We really need even more funding beyond that, because otherwise all of
>> this is simply unsustainable.  This request is the smallest we can
>> make.
>>
>> -------
>>
>> Hi everyone.
>>
>> The OpenBSD project uses a lot of electricity for running the
>> development and build machines.  A number of logistical reasons
>> prevents us from moving the machines to another location which might
>> offer space/power for free, so let's not allow the conversation to go
>> that way.
>>
>> We are looking for a Canadian company who will take on our electrical
>> expenses -- on their books, rather than on our books.  We would be
>> happiest to find someone who will do this on an annual recurring
>> basis.
>>
>> That way the various OpenBSD efforts can be supported, yet written off
>> as an off-site operations cost by such a company.  If we reduce this
>> cost, it will leave more money for other parts of the project.
>>
>> We think that a Canadian company is the best choice for accounting
>> reasons.  If a company in some other jurisdiction feels they can also
>> do this successfully, we'd be very happy to hear from them as well.
>>
>> I am not going to disclose the actual numbers here.  Please contact me
>> for details if serious.
>>
>> Thanks.
>

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Request for Funding our Electricity

Theo de Raadt
In reply to this post by Bob Beck
> On Tue, Jan 14, 2014 at 3:03 PM, Bob Beck <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >    Just to bring this issue back to the forefront.
> >
> > In light of shrinking funding, we do need to look for a source to
> > cover project expenses.  If need be the OpenBSD Foundation can be
> > involved in receiving donations to cover project electrical costs.
> >
> > But the fact is right now, OpenBSD will shut down if we do not have
> > the funding to keep the lights on.
> >
> > If you or a company you know are able to assist us, it would be
> > greatly appreciated, but right now we are looking at a significant
> > funding shortfall for the upcoming year - Meaning the project won't be
> > able to cover 20 thousand dollars in electrical expenses before being
> > able to use money for other things. That sort of situation is not
> > sustainable.
>
> There's an equation that has to be satisfied here. It has a demand
> side and a supply side. You demand a certain amount of electricity and
> someone has to supply the money to pay for it. I'm going to be blunt
> here, in an effort to be helpful (it's also not foreign to the OpenBSD
> style). I get the impression that the demand for electricity is viewed
> as a given:  you use what you use and people need to step up and
> provide the money to pay for it. If I'm wrong, please say so. But if
> I'm right, the demand can be adjusted. Sometimes you need to eat
> cornflakes instead of caviar.  For example, I've never understood why
> this project supports the old architectures it does, considering the
> associated costs.

The answer to that is not news.

On a regular basis, we find real and serious bugs which affect all
platforms, but they are incidentally made visible on one of the
platforms we run, following that they are fixed.  It is a harsh
reality which static and dynamic analysis tools have not yet resolved.

Now, If you don't realize this is the reason we try to run on the
older platforms, I am sorry but you have really not tried to stay in
the loop of what makes OpenBSD a vibrant ecosystem.  If you aren't in
the loop regarding this, then your mail comes off pretty darn preachy.

> The recent discussion of a need for a replacement
> Vax for package-building illustrates that.

The vaxes being asked for draw almost no power, but it supplies the
same benefits as the other architectures.

Regarding shutting them down, there other social problems.

Yes, we remove about 10 of the architectures.  We'd slowly lose the
developers who like to work on those areas.  They also work in other
areas, but ... I suspect they would another BSD that supports them.

> Perhaps this is an opportunity to reassess the scope of the project
> and trim some things that can no longer be justified on a cost-benefit
> basis.

And maybe we've been doing that assessment continually for two
decades.

> If the choice is between shutting the project down and reducing its
> scope to something sustainable, it's a no-brainer. This project has
> made really significant contributions, both in the obvious area,
> security, but also to the art of managing and building complex
> software that is reliable. To have it go away rather than trim its
> sails in way that acknowledges reality would really be a shame.

This project "has made"?  How about "this project will continue to".

I really love how we keep getting advice.

Anyone want to suggest we hold a bake sale?

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Request for Funding our Electricity

Miod Vallat
> Yes, we remove about 10 of the architectures.  We'd slowly lose the
> developers who like to work on those areas.  They also work in other
> areas, but ... I suspect they would another BSD that supports them.

Darn' tootin'!

> Anyone want to suggest we hold a bake sale?

Make that a lo-carb bake sale.

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Request for Funding our Electricity

Peter J. Philipp-3
In reply to this post by Theo de Raadt
On 01/14/14 21:56, Theo de Raadt wrote:

Hi,

> Anyone want to suggest we hold a bake sale?

I just donated a little bit.  Looking for roughly 10 dozen like minded
people.  I'm not suggesting a bake sale but one thing I noticed with the
freebsdfoundation.org's website, that I think works out good, is that
they have a donation meter on how much was put in the hat.  I think
something like this would benefit OpenBSD too.  Just there would need to
be someone able to make such a meter on a website.  Also showing how
much came from private donations vs. corporate donations would be
interesting to see.

Cheers,

-peter

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Bake Sale

Hendrickson, Kenneth
In reply to this post by Theo de Raadt
--- Theo de Raadt wrote:
> Anyone want to suggest we hold a bake sale?

I understand there is a market for brownies in Colorado and Washington state.

Ken Hendrickson



Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Request for Funding our Electricity

Kirill Bychkov
In reply to this post by Bob Beck
On Wed, January 15, 2014 00:03, Bob Beck wrote:

>    Just to bring this issue back to the forefront.
>
> In light of shrinking funding, we do need to look for a source to
> cover project expenses.  If need be the OpenBSD Foundation can be
> involved in receiving donations to cover project electrical costs.
>
> But the fact is right now, OpenBSD will shut down if we do not have
> the funding to keep the lights on.
>
> If you or a company you know are able to assist us, it would be
> greatly appreciated, but right now we are looking at a significant
> funding shortfall for the upcoming year - Meaning the project won't be
> able to cover 20 thousand dollars in electrical expenses before being
> able to use money for other things. That sort of situation is not
> sustainable.
>

Hi. Could we collect this sum on special bank account, to gather correct sum
for covering electricity expenses?
Or OpenBSD Foundation will pay a bill from it's funds?
Simplier - should I send money to Foundation right now or should I wait info
about direct-electricity-expenses-acccount? Unfortunately I can't send $20k,
but if 200 community members send $100 each...
I hope this will help to have another year for searching a company Theo was
mentioning in his irst letter.

>
>
> On Fri, Dec 20, 2013 at 5:08 PM, Theo de Raadt <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>> I am resending this request for funding our electricity bills because
>> it is not yet resolved.
>>
>> We really need even more funding beyond that, because otherwise all of
>> this is simply unsustainable.  This request is the smallest we can
>> make.
>>
>> -------
>>
>> Hi everyone.
>>
>> The OpenBSD project uses a lot of electricity for running the
>> development and build machines.  A number of logistical reasons
>> prevents us from moving the machines to another location which might
>> offer space/power for free, so let's not allow the conversation to go
>> that way.
>>
>> We are looking for a Canadian company who will take on our electrical
>> expenses -- on their books, rather than on our books.  We would be
>> happiest to find someone who will do this on an annual recurring
>> basis.
>>
>> That way the various OpenBSD efforts can be supported, yet written off
>> as an off-site operations cost by such a company.  If we reduce this
>> cost, it will leave more money for other parts of the project.
>>
>> We think that a Canadian company is the best choice for accounting
>> reasons.  If a company in some other jurisdiction feels they can also
>> do this successfully, we'd be very happy to hear from them as well.
>>
>> I am not going to disclose the actual numbers here.  Please contact me
>> for details if serious.
>>
>> Thanks.
>>
>
>


Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Request for Funding our Electricity

Bob Beck
Kiril, a dedicated one purpose bank account or officially directed
donations are somewhat problematic to a canadian not for profit -
Normally for expenses the foundation supports we simply re-imburse the
individuals for their costs from our funds.

As far as the suggested "donation" meter that's an idea we'd probably
like to put up - as it gets that crowdsourcing type
interest going. But in this case it would likely not be 20K, more like
a 150K yearly goal would be best.


On Tue, Jan 14, 2014 at 2:16 PM, Kirill Bychkov <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Wed, January 15, 2014 00:03, Bob Beck wrote:
>>    Just to bring this issue back to the forefront.
>>
>> In light of shrinking funding, we do need to look for a source to
>> cover project expenses.  If need be the OpenBSD Foundation can be
>> involved in receiving donations to cover project electrical costs.
>>
>> But the fact is right now, OpenBSD will shut down if we do not have
>> the funding to keep the lights on.
>>
>> If you or a company you know are able to assist us, it would be
>> greatly appreciated, but right now we are looking at a significant
>> funding shortfall for the upcoming year - Meaning the project won't be
>> able to cover 20 thousand dollars in electrical expenses before being
>> able to use money for other things. That sort of situation is not
>> sustainable.
>>
>
> Hi. Could we collect this sum on special bank account, to gather correct sum
> for covering electricity expenses?
> Or OpenBSD Foundation will pay a bill from it's funds?
> Simplier - should I send money to Foundation right now or should I wait info
> about direct-electricity-expenses-acccount? Unfortunately I can't send $20k,
> but if 200 community members send $100 each...
> I hope this will help to have another year for searching a company Theo was
> mentioning in his irst letter.
>
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Dec 20, 2013 at 5:08 PM, Theo de Raadt <[hidden email]>
>> wrote:
>>> I am resending this request for funding our electricity bills because
>>> it is not yet resolved.
>>>
>>> We really need even more funding beyond that, because otherwise all of
>>> this is simply unsustainable.  This request is the smallest we can
>>> make.
>>>
>>> -------
>>>
>>> Hi everyone.
>>>
>>> The OpenBSD project uses a lot of electricity for running the
>>> development and build machines.  A number of logistical reasons
>>> prevents us from moving the machines to another location which might
>>> offer space/power for free, so let's not allow the conversation to go
>>> that way.
>>>
>>> We are looking for a Canadian company who will take on our electrical
>>> expenses -- on their books, rather than on our books.  We would be
>>> happiest to find someone who will do this on an annual recurring
>>> basis.
>>>
>>> That way the various OpenBSD efforts can be supported, yet written off
>>> as an off-site operations cost by such a company.  If we reduce this
>>> cost, it will leave more money for other parts of the project.
>>>
>>> We think that a Canadian company is the best choice for accounting
>>> reasons.  If a company in some other jurisdiction feels they can also
>>> do this successfully, we'd be very happy to hear from them as well.
>>>
>>> I am not going to disclose the actual numbers here.  Please contact me
>>> for details if serious.
>>>
>>> Thanks.
>

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Request for Funding our Electricity

patrick keshishian
In reply to this post by Theo de Raadt
On 1/14/14, Theo de Raadt <[hidden email]> wrote:

>> On Tue, Jan 14, 2014 at 3:03 PM, Bob Beck <[hidden email]>
>> wrote:
>> >    Just to bring this issue back to the forefront.
>> >
>> > In light of shrinking funding, we do need to look for a source to
>> > cover project expenses.  If need be the OpenBSD Foundation can be
>> > involved in receiving donations to cover project electrical costs.
>> >
>> > But the fact is right now, OpenBSD will shut down if we do not have
>> > the funding to keep the lights on.
>> >
>> > If you or a company you know are able to assist us, it would be
>> > greatly appreciated, but right now we are looking at a significant
>> > funding shortfall for the upcoming year - Meaning the project won't be
>> > able to cover 20 thousand dollars in electrical expenses before being
>> > able to use money for other things. That sort of situation is not
>> > sustainable.
>>
>> There's an equation that has to be satisfied here. It has a demand
>> side and a supply side. You demand a certain amount of electricity and
>> someone has to supply the money to pay for it. I'm going to be blunt
>> here, in an effort to be helpful (it's also not foreign to the OpenBSD
>> style). I get the impression that the demand for electricity is viewed
>> as a given:  you use what you use and people need to step up and
>> provide the money to pay for it. If I'm wrong, please say so. But if
>> I'm right, the demand can be adjusted. Sometimes you need to eat
>> cornflakes instead of caviar.  For example, I've never understood why
>> this project supports the old architectures it does, considering the
>> associated costs.
>
> The answer to that is not news.
>
> On a regular basis, we find real and serious bugs which affect all
> platforms, but they are incidentally made visible on one of the
> platforms we run, following that they are fixed.  It is a harsh
> reality which static and dynamic analysis tools have not yet resolved.
>
> Now, If you don't realize this is the reason we try to run on the
> older platforms, I am sorry but you have really not tried to stay in
> the loop of what makes OpenBSD a vibrant ecosystem.  If you aren't in
> the loop regarding this, then your mail comes off pretty darn preachy.
>
>> The recent discussion of a need for a replacement
>> Vax for package-building illustrates that.
>
> The vaxes being asked for draw almost no power, but it supplies the
> same benefits as the other architectures.
>
> Regarding shutting them down, there other social problems.
>
> Yes, we remove about 10 of the architectures.  We'd slowly lose the
> developers who like to work on those areas.  They also work in other
> areas, but ... I suspect they would another BSD that supports them.
>
>> Perhaps this is an opportunity to reassess the scope of the project
>> and trim some things that can no longer be justified on a cost-benefit
>> basis.
>
> And maybe we've been doing that assessment continually for two
> decades.
>
>> If the choice is between shutting the project down and reducing its
>> scope to something sustainable, it's a no-brainer. This project has
>> made really significant contributions, both in the obvious area,
>> security, but also to the art of managing and building complex
>> software that is reliable. To have it go away rather than trim its
>> sails in way that acknowledges reality would really be a shame.
>
> This project "has made"?  How about "this project will continue to".
>
> I really love how we keep getting advice.

I think you misunderstood the concept of supply and demand
pointed out in the message you replied to. "We" are so used to
leeching off the project, and for so long, that we feel entitled to
/demand/ that you and your project /supply/ what we feel entitled
to. Because of our dependence to this entitlement feeling, should
anything threaten the supply of what you produce, must not be
allowed. Even if "we" should need to go to our government
representatives to address this threat!

I can see it now: OBSD=OBama Software Distribution. It will
be provided to everyone and anyone, whether or not they feel
they need it. If anyone chooses to not use it, they still will be
charged a "fee" for the CD set they don't need now, but /might/
need in the future. This program will be sustained by inflated
CD prices (say $750 a copy), and by cutting bits of the project
which will be deemed unnecessary, such as old and obsolete
hardware support (VAX, Sparc, ...), stickers will be discontinued,
OpenSSH will be removed from base; let's be honest about it,
you really need encryption if you have something to hide (from
the government).

I understand they now have worked out all the glitches in their
web-site, which will now host the new OBSD.

Cheers,
--patrick

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Request for Funding our Electricity

Theo de Raadt
In reply to this post by Bob Beck
> > Anyone want to suggest we hold a bake sale?
>
> I will take this opportunity to suggest a probably bad idea but one
> that crossed my mind nonetheless.
>
> I have not actively kept up with this list so forgive me if this can't
> be done, or isn't in line with the community's values, but what about
> doing a Kickstarter campaign for each OpenBSD release? Varying levels
> of support could get the different levels of swag that are already
> distributed: CD/DVD distributions, t-shirts, stickers, etc...

The problem with this model is that once again
    - we are the ones who need to supply more;
    - we need to promising the goods;
    - we are the ones who need to invest;
    - we are supposed to do the extra work;
    - we are supposed to take time away from coding.

Don't we do enough?

Regarding the swag.  The entire OpenBSD project now probably gets 1/4
of revenue out of CD, tshirt sales, but in this model we'd have to
give much of that out to people who contribute, and it will probably
be less.

Remember to add shipping, now paid on this end, instead of by the buyer.

> One could also just contribute $10-$20 to be a supporter, and receive
> nothing material.

$20?  To break even with the above issues, call it $100 minimum.  Does
it still work?  Is there evidence?

And once this turn process on, if it doesn't work, are we even more dead
in the water?

> Nodejitsu recently raised $256k with their Scalenpm campaign. I would
> imagine there are enough people out there who care about OpenBSD too
> whereby a significant amount of money could be raised.

Would that work every year?

I doubt mindshare of this sort works repeatedly.

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Request for Funding our Electricity

Kent R. Spillner-2
On Tue, Jan 14, 2014 at 03:24:00PM -0700, Theo de Raadt wrote:

> > I will take this opportunity to suggest a probably bad idea but one
> > that crossed my mind nonetheless.
> >
> > I have not actively kept up with this list so forgive me if this can't
> > be done, or isn't in line with the community's values, but what about
> > doing a Kickstarter campaign for each OpenBSD release? Varying levels
> > of support could get the different levels of swag that are already
> > distributed: CD/DVD distributions, t-shirts, stickers, etc...
>
> The problem with this model is that once again
>     - we are the ones who need to supply more;
>     - we need to promising the goods;
>     - we are the ones who need to invest;
>     - we are supposed to do the extra work;
>     - we are supposed to take time away from coding.

Who would back the KickStarter but be unwilling to donate directly to
the project?  The community is already here, the project already accepts
donations.  I don't see what KickStarter offers besides the hipster cred
of running a KickStarter, and hipster cred doesn't pay electrical bills.

Anyways, talk is cheap so I'm going to go make a donation now.  If everyone
reading this did the same this thread could die, and OpenBSD wouldn't.

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Request for Funding our Electricity

Jason Koch
In reply to this post by Theo de Raadt
No need to respond to this: just ideas if they're not already covered. I've
just made my donation.

For what it's worth - you can see the numbers on wikimedia's donations,
from 2009. I wouldn't discount the $10 user base.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Staeiou/Protocol [see the graphs on
fundraising below].

Other idea if not already taken care of - You could also get non-coding
contributors to handle the CD & stickers etc, if you don't already have
that happening. Then the fundraising arm wouldn't take away from coding
time.

Thanks
Jason



On Wed, Jan 15, 2014 at 9:24 AM, Theo de Raadt <[hidden email]>wrote:

> > > Anyone want to suggest we hold a bake sale?
> >
> > I will take this opportunity to suggest a probably bad idea but one
> > that crossed my mind nonetheless.
> >
> > I have not actively kept up with this list so forgive me if this can't
> > be done, or isn't in line with the community's values, but what about
> > doing a Kickstarter campaign for each OpenBSD release? Varying levels
> > of support could get the different levels of swag that are already
> > distributed: CD/DVD distributions, t-shirts, stickers, etc...
>
> The problem with this model is that once again
>     - we are the ones who need to supply more;
>     - we need to promising the goods;
>     - we are the ones who need to invest;
>     - we are supposed to do the extra work;
>     - we are supposed to take time away from coding.
>
> Don't we do enough?
>
> Regarding the swag.  The entire OpenBSD project now probably gets 1/4
> of revenue out of CD, tshirt sales, but in this model we'd have to
> give much of that out to people who contribute, and it will probably
> be less.
>
> Remember to add shipping, now paid on this end, instead of by the buyer.
>
> > One could also just contribute $10-$20 to be a supporter, and receive
> > nothing material.
>
> $20?  To break even with the above issues, call it $100 minimum.  Does
> it still work?  Is there evidence?
>
> And once this turn process on, if it doesn't work, are we even more dead
> in the water?
>
> > Nodejitsu recently raised $256k with their Scalenpm campaign. I would
> > imagine there are enough people out there who care about OpenBSD too
> > whereby a significant amount of money could be raised.
>
> Would that work every year?
>
> I doubt mindshare of this sort works repeatedly.
>
>
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Request for Funding our Electricity

Loganaden Velvindron-2
In reply to this post by Donald Allen
On Wed, Jan 15, 2014 at 12:40 AM, Donald Allen <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Tue, Jan 14, 2014 at 3:03 PM, Bob Beck <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>    Just to bring this issue back to the forefront.
>>
>> In light of shrinking funding, we do need to look for a source to
>> cover project expenses.  If need be the OpenBSD Foundation can be
>> involved in receiving donations to cover project electrical costs.
>>
>> But the fact is right now, OpenBSD will shut down if we do not have
>> the funding to keep the lights on.
>>
>> If you or a company you know are able to assist us, it would be
>> greatly appreciated, but right now we are looking at a significant
>> funding shortfall for the upcoming year - Meaning the project won't be
>> able to cover 20 thousand dollars in electrical expenses before being
>> able to use money for other things. That sort of situation is not
>> sustainable.
>
> There's an equation that has to be satisfied here. It has a demand
> side and a supply side. You demand a certain amount of electricity and
> someone has to supply the money to pay for it. I'm going to be blunt
> here, in an effort to be helpful (it's also not foreign to the OpenBSD
> style). I get the impression that the demand for electricity is viewed
> as a given:  you use what you use and people need to step up and
> provide the money to pay for it. If I'm wrong, please say so. But if
> I'm right, the demand can be adjusted. Sometimes you need to eat
> cornflakes instead of caviar. For example, I've never understood why
> this project supports the old architectures it does, considering the
> associated costs. The recent discussion of a need for a replacement
> Vax for package-building illustrates that.
>
> Perhaps this is an opportunity to reassess the scope of the project
> and trim some things that can no longer be justified on a cost-benefit
> basis.
>
> If the choice is between shutting the project down and reducing its
> scope to something sustainable, it's a no-brainer. This project has
> made really significant contributions, both in the obvious area,
> security, but also to the art of managing and building complex
> software that is reliable. To have it go away rather than trim its
> sails in way that acknowledges reality would really be a shame.
>
> /Don Allen
>

I'm not involved deeply in OpenBSD, but you'd be surprised at the
number of software that
incorporates OpenBSD improvements that you and I use.

If you run nsd or unbound:

(from nsd changelog)

Bugfixes:

Fix for accept spinning reported by OpenBSD.

OpenBSD security improvements are often submitted to other projects so
that everybody can benefit:

    Fix bug where clear_remove() and clear_inodedeps() would not iterate
    over the entire pagedep and inodedep hash tables due to an off-by-one
    mistake in loops.  Spotted by and diff from Pedro Martelletto. Sent
    upstream to Kirk and also fixed in FreeBSD.
    ok otto@ millert@

These are just 2 examples that I picked, but there are many more.

OpenSSH wouldn't be reliable if it wasn't tested on HPPA and sparc64:

(I'm pretty sure I saw a bunch of commits wrt to alignment issues that
were discovered
on HPPA or sparc64 for OpenSSH).

If we "re-view the project", we end up with OpenBSD not being able to
make continuous improvements to the whole
world as well as it is doing right now.

So let's do our best to allow the project to grow  :-) !

>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Dec 20, 2013 at 5:08 PM, Theo de Raadt <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> I am resending this request for funding our electricity bills because
>>> it is not yet resolved.
>>>
>>> We really need even more funding beyond that, because otherwise all of
>>> this is simply unsustainable.  This request is the smallest we can
>>> make.
>>>
>>> -------
>>>
>>> Hi everyone.
>>>
>>> The OpenBSD project uses a lot of electricity for running the
>>> development and build machines.  A number of logistical reasons
>>> prevents us from moving the machines to another location which might
>>> offer space/power for free, so let's not allow the conversation to go
>>> that way.
>>>
>>> We are looking for a Canadian company who will take on our electrical
>>> expenses -- on their books, rather than on our books.  We would be
>>> happiest to find someone who will do this on an annual recurring
>>> basis.
>>>
>>> That way the various OpenBSD efforts can be supported, yet written off
>>> as an off-site operations cost by such a company.  If we reduce this
>>> cost, it will leave more money for other parts of the project.
>>>
>>> We think that a Canadian company is the best choice for accounting
>>> reasons.  If a company in some other jurisdiction feels they can also
>>> do this successfully, we'd be very happy to hear from them as well.
>>>
>>> I am not going to disclose the actual numbers here.  Please contact me
>>> for details if serious.
>>>
>>> Thanks.
>>
>



--
This message is strictly personal and the opinions expressed do not
represent those of my employers, either past or present.

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Request for Funding our Electricity

Riccardo Mottola
Hi,

Loganaden Velvindron wrote:
> OpenSSH wouldn't be reliable if it wasn't tested on HPPA and sparc64:
>
> (I'm pretty sure I saw a bunch of commits wrt to alignment issues that
> were discovered
> on HPPA or sparc64 for OpenSSH).
being myself a developer of several applications, I can only praise
that. The quality of "Linux-x86" only software is quite evident lately.

I have discovered in the past a lot of bugs in my own software by
running it on different architectures and different operating systems.
Even if we "love" our own BSD or Linux flavour... I once discovered a
bug by testing on AIX/POWER... that affected any platform, but
reproduced reliably only there.

Sparc and PA-RISC discover a lot of bugs (I'd love to say for their
superior architectures) due to alignments, stack treatment, structure
handling.

Often it is a burden, one has to fight with buggy compilers, strange
bootloaders and aging hardware, but it has paid off more than once.

This personal experience can surely be extended to other libraries and
to whole operating system(s).


Riccardo

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Request for Funding our Electricity

Gilles LAMIRAL
In reply to this post by Theo de Raadt
Dear Theo,

> Don't we do enough?

You already do too much.

> Regarding the swag.  The entire OpenBSD project now probably gets 1/4
> of revenue out of CD

Why don't you do for the website software downloads what you do for the CDs?
Make users pay the downloads from the official website as you make them pay for the CDs.
No need to change the license.
No need to care about parallel free downloads, they will be there soon
for poor users or smart users than can type "openbsd download" in a search engine.
Add lifetime of OpenBSD updates without extra payment (a mailing-list can announce them).
Add 30 days money-back guarantee! (any reason qualifies).
Add invoice.

> Would that work every year?

Every day.

> I doubt mindshare of this sort works repeatedly.

No doubt it will work but I guess I'm the only one on earth to know that.
Of course, I already ear all possible arguments claiming it can't work,
it won't be free/open software anymore etc.
Openbsd won't just be gratis from the homepage, that's all.

It works for me for more than three years for a very small software much worse,
much smaller, less well known than the OpenBSD system.

That's the buying of OpenBSD CDs that made me think about this business model.
I'm lazy so I didn't want the hard stuff of building and sending CDs.

Numerically it works 100 times (yes a hundred times) better than a permanent call for donation,
that's what I measured, how surprising!, that is what I still benefit every day.

You won't have to sell CDs or teeshirts anymore, just coding, paying electricity and coders.


--
Au revoir,                             09 51 84 42 42
Gilles Lamiral. France, Baulon (35580) 06 20 79 76 06

MJ
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Request for Funding our Electricity

MJ

On 15 Jan 2014, at 16.35, Gilles LAMIRAL <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Dear Theo,
>
>> Don't we do enough?
>
> You already do too much.

I have long held the opinion that Theo is probably the best coder on this planet. That’s not any sort of ass-kissing, either, it’s my objective, unbiased opinion. And I know Henning personally, as in “live and worked together with him" - one hell of an expert.

However, the dilemma that the project has found itself in now very clearly demonstrates that Theo is not a businessman and that there isn’t any other businessman at the helm, either. Imagining that people will suddenly start to pay for something that they have constantly been getting for free is absurd - their belief is that somebody else will surely step up first or somebody will fork in the name of fame. No business on this planet is going to allocate budget to paying OpenBSD’s electricity bills, let alone anything else, without 1) a detailed itemisation of the electrical bills, 2) a detailed justification of said line items, and 3) a satisfaction of their own business interest. It’s just not sexy for a philanthropist to support a relatively unheard of operating system when cancer is still left uncured.

It’s not good to be removing coders from their tasks; the project needs a businessman or two. One who will handle the corporate feature requests and charge dearly for them. Things like routing technology and high-speed packet forwarding - things that can replace the exorbitant costs of maintaining cisco routers. This is the key. With the FBSD 10GB wire speed packet forwarding incorporated, OpenBSD would be ready to challenge Cisco in a very serious way. Completely free as always, but with paid support for this edge cases that make life what it is.

Thanks Theo, Henning, and all of the rest of you.


-mike

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Request for Funding our Electricity

Vincent Gross-3
On Wed, Jan 15, 2014 at 06:25:53PM +0200, MJ wrote:
>
> I have long held the opinion that Theo is probably the best coder on this planet. That?s not any sort of ass-kissing, either, it?s my objective, unbiased opinion. And I know Henning personally, as in ?live and worked together with him" - one hell of an expert.
>
> However, the dilemma that the project has found itself in now very clearly demonstrates that Theo is not a businessman and that there isn?t any other businessman at the helm, either. Imagining that people will suddenly start to pay for something that they have constantly been getting for free is absurd - their belief is that somebody else will surely step up first or somebody will fork in the name of fame. No business on this planet is going to allocate budget to paying OpenBSD?s electricity bills, let alone anything else, without 1) a detailed itemisation of the electrical bills, 2) a detailed justification of said line items, and 3) a satisfaction of their own business interest. It?s just not sexy for a philanthropist to support a relatively unheard of operating system when cancer is still left uncured.

Define sexy. Some people will say it's having flash running full speed
on their web browser while streaming 3 youtube videos. For me it's being
able to trust my operating system to behave in a way that keeps me in
the loop and able to fix it.

As for the legalese, some people said "You'll never get anywhere without
a protocol number for CARP!", yet some ciscos support CARP nowadays.

>
> It?s not good to be removing coders from their tasks; the project needs a businessman or two. One who will handle the corporate feature requests and charge dearly for them. Things like routing technology and high-speed packet forwarding - things that can replace the exorbitant costs of maintaining cisco routers. This is the key. With the FBSD 10GB wire speed packet forwarding incorporated, OpenBSD would be ready to challenge Cisco in a very serious way. Completely free as always, but with paid support for this edge cases that make life what it is.
>

I don't know what is your background with corporate IT, but my
experience is that most of the time what the suits are looking for is
the assurance they will have resources to fix arising issues, or in
layman terms, a tech support to yell at. I do not see OpenBSD providing
such a support. However there are quite a few companies that provide
such service for their OpenBSD-based appliances.

Does that mean OpenBSD roadmap should be based on what will sell with
these companies? The answer (which is "no") has already be given many
times on misc@, and I will let Theo add another layer of p[ao]int if he
deems it necessary.

Lastly, you suggest having a businessman in the project. That is,
someone who gets a commit bit by doing something else than coding. It's
not even about what this says to the world or the example it sets. It is
just plain rude towards the developers. I am not downplaying the
skills of businessmen; but you simply can't just say that contributing
code the OpenBSD way is the same as selling the product, however tough
that may be.


This is not a race; this is about doing things right.

regards,

--
Vincent

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Request for Funding our Electricity

Kevin Lyda
In reply to this post by Bob Beck
Regarding the "less architecture support to save electricity"
argument, I'm not sure one follows the other. Computing power has
grown to a point that emulators are perfectly valid - particularly for
older systems.

I think a push to package and maintain emulators for many of these
older architectures would be beneficial in many ways. There's some
amount of this already - there are instructions for the simh simulator
for the VAX arch for instance. The obvious benefits I couldd see would
be:

1) You could spin up builds on them w/ little to no effect on electricity usage.
2) Even if the OpenBSD foundation's arch X machine dies, there would
still be infrastructure to maintain the port.
3) It would widen the possible number of developers if people could
spin up older architectures in an emulator.
4) It would make OpenBSD a valuable tool for accessing older media and
documenting older architectures.

I know emulators are not perfect, so a physical machine would be
superior.  But if there was some encouragement for emulators for archs
I think those would be useful benefits.

Support for multiple archs brings interest and exposes bad code in
ways limited arch support does not. Dropping that to save electricity
is not a valid reason with today's compute power.

Anyway, it's been a long time since I did stuff with OpenBSD, but I
think it would be a shame to drop such support. So I'll back up my
words with some cash.  And if I get a roundtuit, perhaps some code or
docs as well.

Kevin

--
Kevin Lyda
Galway, Ireland
US Citizen overseas? We can vote.
Register now: http://www.votefromabroad.org/

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Request for Funding our Electricity

Gregory Edigarov-5
On 01/17/2014 06:08 PM, Kevin Lyda wrote:
> Regarding the "less architecture support to save electricity"
> argument, I'm not sure one follows the other. Computing power has
> grown to a point that emulators are perfectly valid - particularly for
> older systems.

You still seem like you do not understand the issue and why they need to use hardware in the first place.
so follow my hands, and read my lips, I will explain it slow, and sorry, Teo, what I will say, will seem like I repeat you.

Support for different archs, even not mainstream ones help developers to provide more bug free code on i386, amd64, and some other "mainstream", just because some code errors are better visible on those "non mainstream" architectures.

The virtualization is absolutely not an option here, because those let's call them "debug" architectures should run in hardware, to be further able to check the code.

So, having OpenBSD running on as much archs as it is possible help developers to provide US, the users with much cleaner and much bug free code.

     

--
With best regards,
      Gregory Edigarov

123