Raspberry Pi support in 6.4

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Raspberry Pi support in 6.4

Frank Beuth
(resending as 1st message didn't go through?)


Has OpenBSD's support for Raspberry Pi devices improved much with 6.4? All the
documentation I can find online regarding this platform and OpenBSD refers to
6.3, and suggest that the Raspberry Pi support is very limited (no packages?).

The changelog for 6.4 notes for example:
"Implemented an EFI driver to allow PXE boot over EFIs Simple Network
Protocol, allowing TFTP boot on U-Boot based armv7 and arm64 machines."

Does this allow installing without a serial console?

These posts seems to suggest booting from the microSD card (vs needing external
USB drive) may be possible, but it's not very clear:
http://openbsd-archive.7691.n7.nabble.com/OpenBSD-current-doesn-t-boot-on-Raspberry-Pi-3-Model-B-td352103.html
http://openbsd-archive.7691.n7.nabble.com/OpenBSD-on-Raspberry-pi-3-model-B-td332780.html#a343278

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Re: Raspberry Pi support in 6.4

Otto Moerbeek
On Thu, Jan 17, 2019 at 05:42:24PM +0700, Frank Beuth wrote:

> (resending as 1st message didn't go through?)
>
>
> Has OpenBSD's support for Raspberry Pi devices improved much with 6.4? All the
> documentation I can find online regarding this platform and OpenBSD refers to
> 6.3, and suggest that the Raspberry Pi support is very limited (no packages?).
>
> The changelog for 6.4 notes for example:
> "Implemented an EFI driver to allow PXE boot over EFIs Simple Network
> Protocol, allowing TFTP boot on U-Boot based armv7 and arm64 machines."
>
> Does this allow installing without a serial console?

pxe boot means network boot. This does not have much to do with the
type of console used. AFAIK, you still need a serial console.

>
> These posts seems to suggest booting from the microSD card (vs needing external
> USB drive) may be possible, but it's not very clear:
> http://openbsd-archive.7691.n7.nabble.com/OpenBSD-current-doesn-t-boot-on-Raspberry-Pi-3-Model-B-td352103.html
> http://openbsd-archive.7691.n7.nabble.com/OpenBSD-on-Raspberry-pi-3-model-B-td332780.html#a343278
>

I think http://www.openbsd.org/arm64.html gives a reasoable account of
the state of affairs.

I'm running a rpi3 and it works for my needs as long as I do not hit
swap.  I'm using an external USB drive, since an sd card makes it even
more slow than using an USB attached SSD disk.

        -Otto

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Re: Raspberry Pi support in 6.4

Stuart Henderson
In reply to this post by Frank Beuth
On 2019-01-17, Frank Beuth <[hidden email]> wrote:
> (resending as 1st message didn't go through?)
>
>
> Has OpenBSD's support for Raspberry Pi devices improved much with 6.4? All the
> documentation I can find online regarding this platform and OpenBSD refers to
> 6.3, and suggest that the Raspberry Pi support is very limited (no packages?).

There's quite a decent number of packages:
http://ftp.openbsd.org/pub/OpenBSD/6.4/packages/aarch64/

> The changelog for 6.4 notes for example:
> "Implemented an EFI driver to allow PXE boot over EFIs Simple Network
> Protocol, allowing TFTP boot on U-Boot based armv7 and arm64 machines."
>
> Does this allow installing without a serial console?
>
> These posts seems to suggest booting from the microSD card (vs needing external
> USB drive) may be possible, but it's not very clear:
> http://openbsd-archive.7691.n7.nabble.com/OpenBSD-current-doesn-t-boot-on-Raspberry-Pi-3-Model-B-td352103.html
> http://openbsd-archive.7691.n7.nabble.com/OpenBSD-on-Raspberry-pi-3-model-B-td332780.html#a343278
>
>

AFAIK the comments here are all still valid:
http://openbsd-archive.7691.n7.nabble.com/OpenBSD-on-Raspberry-pi-3-model-B-tp332780p339439.html

- only 64-bit RPis are supported

- 3B has ethernet support

- 3B+ has no ethernet (but maybe you can add this by adding
your own USB device)

- No SD/wifi for any of them, you will need a USB storage device

I'm not aware of anything changing with console - but it's not a huge
expense to get an adapter for serial console, the common CP210x devices
supported by uslcom(4) cost about 3(EUR|GBP|USD) from local sellers or
less direct from China.

(if I was buying a 64-bit ARM device to run OpenBSD on at present,
I would be looking at the Rockchip-based PINE64 boards instead).


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Re: Raspberry Pi support in 6.4

Frank Beuth
(misc got dropped?)

On Thu, Jan 17, 2019 at 04:28:05PM +0000, Stuart Henderson wrote:
>> I'll take a look at that. Why would you prefer the PINE64 over the RBP?
>
>Partly due to the improved storage/connectivity options (especially on
>rockpro64) but largely because there seems a bit more developer interest
>in them than in the rpi.

Is it binary-blob-free?

The Pinebook looks great, and a quick glance at the archives raises hopes that
the answer is "yes, the proprietary firmware has been replacd by u-boot":
https://marc.info/?l=openbsd-tech&m=150417320727503&w=2
https://marc.info/?l=openbsd-tech&m=150416800125742&w=2
https://marc.info/?l=openbsd-misc&m=150324117732158&w=2

Still can't tell whether you need a 3.3v serial console adapter to install on
the Pinebook. (it has a built in display!)

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Re: Raspberry Pi support in 6.4

Frank Beuth
In reply to this post by Frank Beuth
(misc got dropped?)

On Thu, Jan 17, 2019 at 04:28:05PM +0000, Stuart Henderson wrote:
> > I'll take a look at that. Why would you prefer the PINE64 over the RBP?
>
> Partly due to the improved storage/connectivity options (especially on
> rockpro64) but largely because there seems a bit more developer interest
> in them than in the rpi.

Is it binary-blob-free?

The Pinebook looks great, and a quick glance at the archives raises hopes that
the answer is "yes, the proprietary firmware has been replacd by u-boot":
https://marc.info/?l=openbsd-tech&m=150417320727503&w=2
https://marc.info/?l=openbsd-tech&m=150416800125742&w=2
https://marc.info/?l=openbsd-misc&m=150324117732158&w=2

Still can't tell whether you need a 3.3v serial console adapter to install on
the Pinebook. (it has a built in display!)

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Re: Raspberry Pi support in 6.4

Michael Joy
In reply to this post by Frank Beuth
I'd be more than willing to a Pinebook for testing. I wanted one anyway. On 18 Jan 2019 04:38, Frank Beuth <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> (misc got dropped?)
>
> On Thu, Jan 17, 2019 at 04:28:05PM +0000, Stuart Henderson wrote:
> > > I'll take a look at that. Why would you prefer the PINE64 over the RBP?
> >
> > Partly due to the improved storage/connectivity options (especially on
> > rockpro64) but largely because there seems a bit more developer interest
> > in them than in the rpi.
>
> Is it binary-blob-free?
>
> The Pinebook looks great, and a quick glance at the archives raises hopes that
> the answer is "yes, the proprietary firmware has been replacd by u-boot":
> https://marc.info/?l=openbsd-tech&m=150417320727503&w=2 
> https://marc.info/?l=openbsd-tech&m=150416800125742&w=2 
> https://marc.info/?l=openbsd-misc&m=150324117732158&w=2 
>
> Still can't tell whether you need a 3.3v serial console adapter to install on
> the Pinebook. (it has a built in display!)
>

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Re: Raspberry Pi support in 6.4

Stuart Henderson
In reply to this post by Frank Beuth
On 2019-01-18, Frank Beuth <[hidden email]> wrote:
> (misc got dropped?)

Yes, your mail was off-list so I replied off-list.


> On Thu, Jan 17, 2019 at 04:28:05PM +0000, Stuart Henderson wrote:
>> > I'll take a look at that. Why would you prefer the PINE64 over the RBP?
>>
>> Partly due to the improved storage/connectivity options (especially on
>> rockpro64) but largely because there seems a bit more developer interest
>> in them than in the rpi.
>
> Is it binary-blob-free?
>
> The Pinebook looks great, and a quick glance at the archives raises hopes that
> the answer is "yes, the proprietary firmware has been replacd by u-boot":
> https://marc.info/?l=openbsd-tech&m=150417320727503&w=2
> https://marc.info/?l=openbsd-tech&m=150416800125742&w=2
> https://marc.info/?l=openbsd-misc&m=150324117732158&w=2
>
> Still can't tell whether you need a 3.3v serial console adapter to install on
> the Pinebook. (it has a built in display!)
>
>

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Re: Raspberry Pi support in 6.4

Frank Beuth
In reply to this post by Michael Joy
On Fri, Jan 18, 2019 at 07:02:11AM +0000, Michael Joy wrote:
>I'd be more than willing to a Pinebook for testing. I wanted one anyway.

If I end up buying one, I'll buy one for you too :)

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Re: Raspberry Pi support in 6.4

Frank Beuth
In reply to this post by Stuart Henderson
On Fri, Jan 18, 2019 at 08:19:29PM +0000, Stuart Henderson wrote:
>On 2019-01-18, Frank Beuth <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> (misc got dropped?)
>
>Yes, your mail was off-list so I replied off-list.

Ah, ok. Mea culpa, must have hit the wrong key.

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Re: Raspberry Pi support in 6.4

Mihai Popescu-3
In reply to this post by Frank Beuth
Why not an AMD Opteron A1100 based board?

The OP started from Pi then moved gradually to nowhere!
I think it matters what you really want to do with the board. It's
fine to buy it even for fun or killing time, but say it so, please.

I'm thinking to do some multimedia computer hooked to some TV with
such a board, but very few information are available from people who
actually did this. Most of them are linux.

As an example, I am curious how an average player (mplayer, mpv, vlc?)
runs something in 1080p? Some people may want to check the VPN
performace for such a board.

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Re: Raspberry Pi support in 6.4

Frank Beuth
On Sat, Jan 19, 2019 at 04:21:50PM +0200, Mihai Popescu wrote:
>Why not an AMD Opteron A1100 based board?

Because I haven't looked into it yet.

This all started because I'm on vacation in a major electronics hub and saw a
Raspberry Pi at a local mall, thought it would be a fun project and
want to get away from Intel ME/AMD PSP binary blob-istan.

Would love to have a totally open computer where all the code is auditable,
and have it be small enough to pack into my carryon for the flight home...

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Re: Raspberry Pi support in 6.4

Mihai Popescu-3
On Sat, Jan 19, 2019 at 6:09 PM Frank Beuth <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> On Sat, Jan 19, 2019 at 04:21:50PM +0200, Mihai Popescu wrote:
> >Why not an AMD Opteron A1100 based board?
>
> Because I haven't looked into it yet.
>
> This all started because I'm on vacation in a major electronics hub and saw a
> Raspberry Pi at a local mall, thought it would be a fun project and
> want to get away from Intel ME/AMD PSP binary blob-istan.
>
> Would love to have a totally open computer where all the code is auditable,
> and have it be small enough to pack into my carryon for the flight home...
>

Since it looks to me that you missed the point, here is it: most
people on this list, devs mostly are not on vacation ...
Ask precisely!

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Re: Raspberry Pi support in 6.4

Karel Gardas
In reply to this post by Frank Beuth
On Sat, 19 Jan 2019 22:38:42 +0630
Frank Beuth <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Sat, Jan 19, 2019 at 04:21:50PM +0200, Mihai Popescu wrote:
> >Why not an AMD Opteron A1100 based board?
>
> Because I haven't looked into it yet.
>
> This all started because I'm on vacation in a major electronics hub and saw a
> Raspberry Pi at a local mall, thought it would be a fun project and
> want to get away from Intel ME/AMD PSP binary blob-istan.
>
> Would love to have a totally open computer where all the code is auditable,
> and have it be small enough to pack into my carryon for the flight home...

Well, with RPiX you completely missed the target I'm afriad. If I'm
correct, then whole SoC is booted on the side of video processor which
loads some blobs into it, run ThreadX OS and then boots ARMv8
bootloader on ARM core. There have been some attempt to replace ThreadX
and binary blob on RPiX, but so far IIRC unsuccessful.

So if you like to have libre hardware w/o binary blobs, then you need
to look elsewhere. I don't now situation in ARM land, but at least
RaptorCS is very vocal about advertising their POWER9 boards as truly
libre computer systems... The only issue with this is that OpenBSD does
not fly on them.

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Re: Raspberry Pi support in 6.4

Frank Beuth

> On January 19, 2019 at 11:34 PM Karel Gardas <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Well, with RPiX you completely missed the target I'm afriad. If I'm
> correct, then whole SoC is booted on the side of video processor which
> loads some blobs into it, run ThreadX OS and then boots ARMv8
> bootloader on ARM core. There have been some attempt to replace ThreadX
> and binary blob on RPiX, but so far IIRC unsuccessful.

I did indeed miss the target, and what you say is largely consistent with my own further research.

The upside of the RPi is it (seems) to be a stateless device outside the data stored on the SD card -- there seems to be no other firmware/flash devices that could store malware.

While the RPi does this for pedagogical rather than security reasons (they wanted it to be un-brickable) some security researchers (Rutkowska) recommend statelessness as a partial mitigation strategy for the security risks inherent in blobs (to stop them being used to persist malware outside the OS).

Unfortunately it looks like there are no current production mainstream devices which do any better (unless OpenBSD has figured out how to replace the Pine64 firmware), leaving niche devices based on e.g OpenPOWER and RISC V.

Neither of which fit in hand luggage :/

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Re: Raspberry Pi support in 6.4

Frank Beuth
In reply to this post by Mihai Popescu-3

> On January 19, 2019 at 6:17 PM Mihai Popescu <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Since it looks to me that you missed the point, here is it: most
> people on this list, devs mostly are not on vacation ...
> Ask precisely!

Ok, thanks for pointing that out.

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Re: Raspberry Pi support in 6.4

Dinesh Thirumurthy
In reply to this post by Frank Beuth
On Sun, Jan 20, 2019, 21:53 <[hidden email] wrote

> Unfortunately it looks like there are no current production mainstream
> devices which do any better (unless OpenBSD has figured out how to replace
> the Pine64 firmware), leaving niche devices based on e.g OpenPOWER and RISC
> V.
>
> Neither of which fit in hand luggage :/
>

The SiFive FU540 runs FreeBSD.

https://www.sifive.com/boards/hifive-unleashed

https://fosdem.org/2019/schedule/event/testing_freebsd_risc_v5/

Thanks.

Regards,
Dinesh

>
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Re: Raspberry Pi support in 6.4

Frank Beuth