Raspberry Pi 2 Model B

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Raspberry Pi 2 Model B

Lampshade
Hi
New version of Raspberry Pi is announced. Its SoC have four cores in Cortex-A7 microarchitecture so it is compatible with ARMv7. It also have 1 GB of RAM. Have the same GPU as its predecessor: VideoCore IV 3d. For some time GPU have open documentation and open (BSD licence) driver in Linux world. Price is still $35. It should be electrically compatible with predecessor and have the same dimensions.
Are you going to support this hardware in OpenBSD?

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Re: Raspberry Pi 2 Model B

Janne Johansson-3
But it still requires a blob to actually run, does it not?

The fact that there is docs for the blob isn't as important as being forced
to have someone elses code running alongside your kernel in order to even
boot it, let alone produce graphics on it.


2015-02-02 13:47 GMT+01:00 Lampshade <[hidden email]>:

> Hi
> New version of Raspberry Pi is announced. Its SoC have four cores in
> Cortex-A7 microarchitecture so it is compatible with ARMv7. It also have 1
> GB of RAM. Have the same GPU as its predecessor: VideoCore IV 3d. For some
> time GPU have open documentation and open (BSD licence) driver in Linux
> world. Price is still $35. It should be electrically compatible with
> predecessor and have the same dimensions.
> Are you going to support this hardware in OpenBSD?
>
>


--
May the most significant bit of your life be positive.

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Re: Raspberry Pi 2 Model B

Einfach Jemand
Am 02.02.2015 um 15:20 schrieb Janne Johansson:

> But it still requires a blob to actually run, does it not?
>
> The fact that there is docs for the blob isn't as important as being forced
> to have someone elses code running alongside your kernel in order to even
> boot it, let alone produce graphics on it.
>
>
> 2015-02-02 13:47 GMT+01:00 Lampshade <[hidden email]>:
>
>> Hi
>> New version of Raspberry Pi is announced. Its SoC have four cores in
>> Cortex-A7 microarchitecture so it is compatible with ARMv7. It also have 1
>> GB of RAM. Have the same GPU as its predecessor: VideoCore IV 3d. For some
>> time GPU have open documentation and open (BSD licence) driver in Linux
>> world. Price is still $35. It should be electrically compatible with
>> predecessor and have the same dimensions.
>> Are you going to support this hardware in OpenBSD?
>>
>>
>
>

Hmm, isn't an "unknown blob" involved in every access to a hard-disc  be
it spinning rust or SSD and the protocol involved ATA, SATA, SCSI or FC?
I haven't seen one disc yet where the firmware of the interface
controller was open sourced or even 'freely' documented. (Of course that
could simply be because I did not search hard enough to find one...)

Or is this outside the scope since there is a well behaved (and
documented) programming interface that keeps you away for the internal
operations of the device?

Sometimes for me the discussion of "libre hardware" seems moot - you
would have to start with sand and your own fab and thoroughly document
every step of designing and manufacturing a chip in order to get there.

My 2 cents
rru

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Re: Raspberry Pi 2 Model B

jungle Boogie
Hi Einfach,
On 2 February 2015 at 07:43, Einfach Jemand <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Am 02.02.2015 um 15:20 schrieb Janne Johansson:
>> But it still requires a blob to actually run, does it not?
>>
>> The fact that there is docs for the blob isn't as important as being forced
>> to have someone elses code running alongside your kernel in order to even
>> boot it, let alone produce graphics on it.
>>
>>
>> 2015-02-02 13:47 GMT+01:00 Lampshade <[hidden email]>:
>>
>>> Hi
>>> New version of Raspberry Pi is announced. Its SoC have four cores in
>>> Cortex-A7 microarchitecture so it is compatible with ARMv7. It also have 1
>>> GB of RAM. Have the same GPU as its predecessor: VideoCore IV 3d. For some
>>> time GPU have open documentation and open (BSD licence) driver in Linux
>>> world. Price is still $35. It should be electrically compatible with
>>> predecessor and have the same dimensions.
>>> Are you going to support this hardware in OpenBSD?
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
> Hmm, isn't an "unknown blob" involved in every access to a hard-disc  be
> it spinning rust or SSD and the protocol involved ATA, SATA, SCSI or FC?
> I haven't seen one disc yet where the firmware of the interface
> controller was open sourced or even 'freely' documented. (Of course that
> could simply be because I did not search hard enough to find one...)
>
> Or is this outside the scope since there is a well behaved (and
> documented) programming interface that keeps you away for the internal
> operations of the device?
>
> Sometimes for me the discussion of "libre hardware" seems moot - you
> would have to start with sand and your own fab and thoroughly document
> every step of designing and manufacturing a chip in order to get there.
>

My two cents:
https://marc.info/?l=openbsd-misc&m=132788027403910&w=2



> My 2 cents
> rru
>



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Re: Raspberry Pi 2 Model B

Janne Johansson-3
In reply to this post by Einfach Jemand
There is a difference in "code that runs in the cpu of your hard drive" and
"code running in your CPU to allow talking to the hard drive".
From what I recall, the RPI GPU stuff falls into the second category,
whereas hard drives normally falls into the first.

One of them is just stuff that makes the drive work, and the other is what
openbsd calls "a blob". You can't realistically prevent code from running
inside the hard drive cpu (firmware loaded or not), and for most of the
usage it just is how stuff is done today. What you can do realistically is
to prevent untrusted binary code from running on the same cpu where your
openbsd kernel runs, and that is where OpenBSD has drawn the line.


2015-02-02 16:43 GMT+01:00 Einfach Jemand <[hidden email]>:

> Am 02.02.2015 um 15:20 schrieb Janne Johansson:
> > But it still requires a blob to actually run, does it not?
> >
> > The fact that there is docs for the blob isn't as important as being
> forced
> > to have someone elses code running alongside your kernel in order to even
> > boot it, let alone produce graphics on it.
> >
> >
> > 2015-02-02 13:47 GMT+01:00 Lampshade <[hidden email]>:
> >
> >> Hi
> >> New version of Raspberry Pi is announced. Its SoC have four cores in
> >> Cortex-A7 microarchitecture so it is compatible with ARMv7. It also
> have 1
> >> GB of RAM. Have the same GPU as its predecessor: VideoCore IV 3d. For
> some
> >> time GPU have open documentation and open (BSD licence) driver in Linux
> >> world. Price is still $35. It should be electrically compatible with
> >> predecessor and have the same dimensions.
> >> Are you going to support this hardware in OpenBSD?
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
>
> Hmm, isn't an "unknown blob" involved in every access to a hard-disc  be
> it spinning rust or SSD and the protocol involved ATA, SATA, SCSI or FC?
> I haven't seen one disc yet where the firmware of the interface
> controller was open sourced or even 'freely' documented. (Of course that
> could simply be because I did not search hard enough to find one...)
>
> Or is this outside the scope since there is a well behaved (and
> documented) programming interface that keeps you away for the internal
> operations of the device?
>
> Sometimes for me the discussion of "libre hardware" seems moot - you
> would have to start with sand and your own fab and thoroughly document
> every step of designing and manufacturing a chip in order to get there.
>
> My 2 cents
> rru
>
>


--
May the most significant bit of your life be positive.

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Re: Raspberry Pi 2 Model B

Worik Stanton
In reply to this post by Janne Johansson-3
On 03/02/15 03:20, Janne Johansson wrote:
> But it still requires a blob to actually run, does it not?
>
> The fact that there is docs for the blob isn't as important as being forced
> to have someone elses code running alongside your kernel in order to even
> boot it, let alone produce graphics on it.

Very interesting discussion.  Is there a list of supported and
unsupported hardware maintained any place?

I have searched and cannot find one, which may be a reflection on me!
There is a lot of discussion on this list about the performance of such
and such hardware...

For people interested in Raspberry PI (that includes me, I own two) the
beaglebone black is an interesting device and I did find
http://www.tedunangst.com/flak/post/OpenBSD-on-BeagleBone-Black

I am especially interested in the discussion about blobs in the kernel.
 This is a discussion you almost never hear in Linux circles.

cheers
Worik

--
Why is the legal status of chardonnay different to that of cannabis?
       [hidden email] 021-1680650, (03) 4821804
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Re: Raspberry Pi 2 Model B

Einfach Jemand
Am 02.02.2015 um 22:35 schrieb worik:
> On 03/02/15 03:20, Janne Johansson wrote:
>> But it still requires a blob to actually run, does it not?
>>
>> The fact that there is docs for the blob isn't as important as being forced
>> to have someone elses code running alongside your kernel in order to even
>> boot it, let alone produce graphics on it.
>
> Very interesting discussion.  Is there a list of supported and
> unsupported hardware maintained any place?

http://www.openbsd.org/plat.html
http://www.openbsd.org/armv7.html

> I have searched and cannot find one, which may be a reflection on me!
> There is a lot of discussion on this list about the performance of such
> and such hardware...
>
> For people interested in Raspberry PI (that includes me, I own two) the
> beaglebone black is an interesting device and I did find
> http://www.tedunangst.com/flak/post/OpenBSD-on-BeagleBone-Black
>
> I am especially interested in the discussion about blobs in the kernel.
>  This is a discussion you almost never hear in Linux circles.

http://www.openbsd.org/lyrics.html#39

Quote:
- Blobs can be 'de-supported' by vendors at any time.
- Blobs cannot be supported by developers.
- Blobs cannot be fixed by developers.
- Blobs cannot be improved.
- Blobs cannot be audited.
- Blobs are specific to an architecture, thus less portable.
- Blobs are quite often massively bloated.
End Quote

>
> Worik

HTH
rru

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Re: Raspberry Pi 2 Model B

Mihai Popescu-3
In reply to this post by Lampshade
So, I can't resist to ask, Raspberry Pi is the answer to what question?

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Re: Raspberry Pi 2 Model B

Worik Stanton
On 03/02/15 12:49, Mihai Popescu wrote:
> So, I can't resist to ask, Raspberry Pi is the answer to what question?

It is a toy.  Cheap.  Can do simple computing tasks cheaper than
anything else.

Worik

--
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       [hidden email] 021-1680650, (03) 4821804
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Re: Raspberry Pi 2 Model B

L.R. D.S.
In reply to this post by Einfach Jemand
>My two cents:
>https://marc.info/?l=openbsd-misc&m=132788027403910&w=2

Sorry, but this thread is nonsense for me.
How exactly people on this thread can claim about "no support for RPI"
when OpenBSD Project support all the Intel Technology, running tons of
microcode?
Don't make sense for me and seems a logical fallacy from my perspective.

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Re: Raspberry Pi 2 Model B

Theo de Raadt
In reply to this post by Lampshade
>>My two cents:
>>https://marc.info/?l=openbsd-misc&m=132788027403910&w=2
>
>Sorry, but this thread is nonsense for me.
>How exactly people on this thread can claim about "no support for RPI"
>when OpenBSD Project support all the Intel Technology, running tons of
>microcode?
>Don't make sense for me and seems a logical fallacy from my perspective.

So the argument is either we should support all the hardware, or
support none at all.

How dreary.

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Re: Raspberry Pi 2 Model B

Theo de Raadt
In reply to this post by Lampshade
>On 03/02/15 12:49, Mihai Popescu wrote:
>> So, I can't resist to ask, Raspberry Pi is the answer to what question?
>
>It is a toy.  Cheap.  Can do simple computing tasks cheaper than
>anything else.

Cheaper toys:

http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_sacat=0&_nkw=toy&_sop=15&rt=nc

Thomas > Pi

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Re: Raspberry Pi 2 Model B

Christer Solskogen-3
On Tue, Feb 3, 2015 at 3:27 AM, Theo de Raadt <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Cheaper toys:
>
> http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_sacat=0&_nkw=toy&_sop=15&rt=nc
>

That being funny and all, if there are any devs that want a rPIv2 to
play with, I'll be more than happy paying for it (and shipping).

--
chs

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Re: Raspberry Pi 2 Model B

Lampshade
In reply to this post by Lampshade
Hello
I haven't know that Raspberry Pi is so closed that it requires closed source blob to even boot. Thanks for responses. I am not going to buy Raspberry Pi 2 any more (or at least when blob will be open source).
Have a good day.

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Re: Raspberry Pi 2 Model B

Stuart Henderson
In reply to this post by Janne Johansson-3
On 2015-02-02, Janne Johansson <[hidden email]> wrote:
> But it still requires a blob to actually run, does it not?

Not sure... It's no different on the 2 than the original pi (same GPU/boot
mechanism), but there is a project https://github.com/jncronin/rpi-boot which
claims to be an alternative second-stage so perhaps it's possible that way..

First-stage bootloader is pre-programmed on the board. It loads the second-
stage from SD card to the GPU and starts it.

Second-stage bootloader runs on the gpu and loads start.elf (3rd stage) which
contains gpu "firmware" (actually an RTOS which stays running) and which boots
the main cpu. The RTOS has a message passing interface used for GPU access
from the main OS, so one area of concern is how that handles malicious inputs.
It sets up a memory split between GPU/CPU at boot but it's unclear how this
is protected if at all; one important question is whether the code running
on the GPU can access CPU memory after boot. There are scary things on common
x86 systems too of course (network-accessible management processors running
crappy software sitting on the same i2c bus as the EEPROM containing the BIOS;
a payload inserted to code running in SMM would have a lot of access ...)

For all of the posts with people asking about OpenBSD on the rpi I don't think
I've seen a single one along the lines of "I've done x and y (see this diff)
but am stuck on getting z to work", I only remember ones that are more like
"can somebody port OpenBSD to the rpi for me". (Hint: if somebody is willing/
able/interested/stubborn enough to do this, posts like that will be totally
off the radar).

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Re: Raspberry Pi 2 Model B

Jayton Garnett
In reply to this post by Lampshade
If you really do want a BSD on your Pi, use FreeBSD, I've successfully
installed FreeBSD on my original Pi.
There has been a line drawn by the OpenBSD developers, for the reasons they
have stated and its a fair decision and unless someone else wants to fork
OpenBSD, we'll just have to accept it for what it is. As much as I'd like
OpenBSD, its not going to happen.
FreeBSD is a perfectly acceptable alternative to OpenBSD, although it has its
differences its still better than a Linux variant.
regards,Jayton

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Re: Raspberry Pi 2 Model B

Dexter Santucci
In reply to this post by Theo de Raadt
Theo de Raadt <deraadt <at> cvs.openbsd.org> writes:

>
> >>My two cents:
> >>https://marc.info/?l=openbsd-misc&m=132788027403910&w=2
> >
> >Sorry, but this thread is nonsense for me.
> >How exactly people on this thread can claim about "no support for RPI"
> >when OpenBSD Project support all the Intel Technology, running tons of
> >microcode?
> >Don't make sense for me and seems a logical fallacy from my perspective.
>
> So the argument is either we should support all the hardware, or
> support none at all.
>
> How dreary.
>
>

  OpenBSD is one of the last software systems we can trust will not run
untrusted/unaudited code. It is like a small island in an ocean of
compromised software. Considering the number of exploits, backdoors and
other firmware hacks in the wild (from both our governments and theirs),
there really isn't much software left one can trust. If OpenBSD ever runs
blobs, then there will be nothing left standing between us and the spooks.
Blobs are perfect vessels for military technology. Equation Group ring a bell?

  One can not overstate the importance of standing by this principle. We
must preserve these islands of security and openness. Without them we are at
the mercy of not just our spooks, but all of them.

Sir de Raadt, please never give in.

Dexter Santucci