PostgreSQL for VAX on NetBSD/OpenBSD

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PostgreSQL for VAX on NetBSD/OpenBSD

Robert Haas
Hello VAX Enthusiasts:

PostgreSQL currently has some very minimal code to support the VAX
architecture.  We have never supported OpenVMS, so this code would
only be used if someone were to compile PostgreSQL for VAX on an
operating system that we *do* support, such as NetBSD or OpenBSD.
However, we don't know of anyone who has tried to do this in a very
long time, and are therefore considering removing the remaining
support for the VAX platform.  Has anyone tried to build PostgreSQL
for VAX lately?  If so, did it compile?  Did you have to use
--disable-spinlocks to get it to compile?  If it did compile, can you
actually run it, and does it pass the regression tests and work as
expected?  Would you be willing to work with the PostgreSQL to ensure
continuing support for this platform, or does that seem not worthwhile
for whatever reason?

Thanks,

--
Robert Haas
EnterpriseDB: http://www.enterprisedb.com
The Enterprise PostgreSQL Company

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Re: PostgreSQL for VAX on NetBSD/OpenBSD

Dave McGuire
On 06/23/2014 06:58 PM, Greg Stark wrote:

> On Mon, Jun 23, 2014 at 3:09 PM, Robert Haas <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> However, we don't know of anyone who has tried to do this in a very
>> long time, and are therefore considering removing the remaining
>> support for the VAX platform.  Has anyone tried to build PostgreSQL
>> for VAX lately?
>
> Actually I tried a while ago but got stuck configuring the network on
> simh so I could get all the tools. I can try again if there's interest
> but we don't necessarily need to keep a port just because there's a
> simulator for it.

  ...not to mention actual hardware.

               -Dave

--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ/3
New Kensington, PA

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Re: PostgreSQL for VAX on NetBSD/OpenBSD

Robert Haas
In reply to this post by Robert Haas
On Mon, Jun 23, 2014 at 6:58 PM, Greg Stark <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Mon, Jun 23, 2014 at 3:09 PM, Robert Haas <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> However, we don't know of anyone who has tried to do this in a very
>> long time, and are therefore considering removing the remaining
>> support for the VAX platform.  Has anyone tried to build PostgreSQL
>> for VAX lately?
>
> Actually I tried a while ago but got stuck configuring the network on
> simh so I could get all the tools. I can try again if there's interest
> but we don't necessarily need to keep a port just because there's a
> simulator for it.

That's really up to you.  I'm not particularly interested in
generating interest in maintaining this port if there wouldn't
otherwise be any; I'm trying to figure out whether there is existing
interest in it.  For all I know, <whatever>BSD is shipping PostgreSQL
binaries for VAX and every other platform they support in each new
release and people are using them to get real work done.  Then again,
for all I know, it doesn't even compile on that platform, and if you
did manage to get it to compile it wouldn't fit on the disk, and if
you managed to fit it on the disk it wouldn't work because key system
calls aren't supported.  If someone is still interested in this, I'm
hoping they'll help us figure out whether it's anywhere close to
working, and maybe even contribute a buildfarm critter.  If no one
cares, then let's just rip it out and be done with it.

--
Robert Haas
EnterpriseDB: http://www.enterprisedb.com
The Enterprise PostgreSQL Company

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Re: PostgreSQL for VAX on NetBSD/OpenBSD

Sebastian Reitenbach
On Tuesday, June 24, 2014 03:12 CEST, Robert Haas <[hidden email]> wrote:
 

> On Mon, Jun 23, 2014 at 6:58 PM, Greg Stark <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > On Mon, Jun 23, 2014 at 3:09 PM, Robert Haas <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >> However, we don't know of anyone who has tried to do this in a very
> >> long time, and are therefore considering removing the remaining
> >> support for the VAX platform.  Has anyone tried to build PostgreSQL
> >> for VAX lately?
> >
> > Actually I tried a while ago but got stuck configuring the network on
> > simh so I could get all the tools. I can try again if there's interest
> > but we don't necessarily need to keep a port just because there's a
> > simulator for it.
>
> That's really up to you.  I'm not particularly interested in
> generating interest in maintaining this port if there wouldn't
> otherwise be any; I'm trying to figure out whether there is existing
> interest in it.  For all I know, <whatever>BSD is shipping PostgreSQL
> binaries for VAX and every other platform they support in each new
> release and people are using them to get real work done.  Then again,
> for all I know, it doesn't even compile on that platform, and if you
> did manage to get it to compile it wouldn't fit on the disk, and if
> you managed to fit it on the disk it wouldn't work because key system
> calls aren't supported.  If someone is still interested in this, I'm
> hoping they'll help us figure out whether it's anywhere close to
> working, and maybe even contribute a buildfarm critter.  If no one
> cares, then let's just rip it out and be done with it.
>

I'm building the vax packages for openbsd. What I can tell is that
for 5.5 no postgresql packages were built. But that may be that
due to the recent upgrade from gcc 2.95 to 3.3.
I guess that not all dependencies to actually build postgresql
are available for the vax, or may build successfully there. But I need
to verify. Might need a few days, since I'm currently on vacation,
with sparse Internet connectivity. ;)

Sebastian


> --
> Robert Haas
> EnterpriseDB: http://www.enterprisedb.com
> The Enterprise PostgreSQL Company

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Re: PostgreSQL for VAX on NetBSD/OpenBSD

Sebastian Reitenbach
On Tuesday, June 24, 2014 13:37 CEST, "Sebastian Reitenbach" <[hidden email]> wrote:
 

> On Tuesday, June 24, 2014 03:12 CEST, Robert Haas <[hidden email]> wrote:
>  
> > On Mon, Jun 23, 2014 at 6:58 PM, Greg Stark <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > > On Mon, Jun 23, 2014 at 3:09 PM, Robert Haas <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > >> However, we don't know of anyone who has tried to do this in a very
> > >> long time, and are therefore considering removing the remaining
> > >> support for the VAX platform.  Has anyone tried to build PostgreSQL
> > >> for VAX lately?
> > >
> > > Actually I tried a while ago but got stuck configuring the network on
> > > simh so I could get all the tools. I can try again if there's interest
> > > but we don't necessarily need to keep a port just because there's a
> > > simulator for it.
> >
> > That's really up to you.  I'm not particularly interested in
> > generating interest in maintaining this port if there wouldn't
> > otherwise be any; I'm trying to figure out whether there is existing
> > interest in it.  For all I know, <whatever>BSD is shipping PostgreSQL
> > binaries for VAX and every other platform they support in each new
> > release and people are using them to get real work done.  Then again,
> > for all I know, it doesn't even compile on that platform, and if you
> > did manage to get it to compile it wouldn't fit on the disk, and if
> > you managed to fit it on the disk it wouldn't work because key system
> > calls aren't supported.  If someone is still interested in this, I'm
> > hoping they'll help us figure out whether it's anywhere close to
> > working, and maybe even contribute a buildfarm critter.  If no one
> > cares, then let's just rip it out and be done with it.
> >
>
> I'm building the vax packages for openbsd. What I can tell is that
> for 5.5 no postgresql packages were built. But that may be that
> due to the recent upgrade from gcc 2.95 to 3.3.
> I guess that not all dependencies to actually build postgresql
> are available for the vax, or may build successfully there. But I need
> to verify. Might need a few days, since I'm currently on vacation,
> with sparse Internet connectivity. ;)

OK, that was easy:

$ cd /usr/ports/databases/postgresql                                                                                                  
$ make install
===>  postgresql-client-9.3.4p0  requires shared libraries .

OpenBSD VAX is static only, so no postgresql on OpenBSD
VAX before shared libraries will ever be made working on it.

cheers,
Sebastian


>
> Sebastian
>
>
> > --
> > Robert Haas
> > EnterpriseDB: http://www.enterprisedb.com
> > The Enterprise PostgreSQL Company

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Re: PostgreSQL for VAX on NetBSD/OpenBSD

Robert Haas
On Tue, Jun 24, 2014 at 7:45 AM, Sebastian Reitenbach
<[hidden email]> wrote:

>> I'm building the vax packages for openbsd. What I can tell is that
>> for 5.5 no postgresql packages were built. But that may be that
>> due to the recent upgrade from gcc 2.95 to 3.3.
>> I guess that not all dependencies to actually build postgresql
>> are available for the vax, or may build successfully there. But I need
>> to verify. Might need a few days, since I'm currently on vacation,
>> with sparse Internet connectivity. ;)
>
> OK, that was easy:
>
> $ cd /usr/ports/databases/postgresql
> $ make install
> ===>  postgresql-client-9.3.4p0  requires shared libraries .
>
> OpenBSD VAX is static only, so no postgresql on OpenBSD
> VAX before shared libraries will ever be made working on it.

Thanks very much; that's useful information.

--
Robert Haas
EnterpriseDB: http://www.enterprisedb.com
The Enterprise PostgreSQL Company

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Re: PostgreSQL for VAX on NetBSD/OpenBSD

David Brownlee
In reply to this post by Robert Haas
Well the latest NetBSD/vax package build doesn't seem to include any
PostgreSQL packages
http://ftp.netbsd.org/pub/pkgsrc/packages/NetBSD/vax/6.0_2014Q1/ but I
don't know why.

I'll try a quick (hah :) build this end to see what happens

David



On 24 June 2014 02:12, Robert Haas <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Mon, Jun 23, 2014 at 6:58 PM, Greg Stark <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > On Mon, Jun 23, 2014 at 3:09 PM, Robert Haas <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> >> However, we don't know of anyone who has tried to do this in a very
> >> long time, and are therefore considering removing the remaining
> >> support for the VAX platform.  Has anyone tried to build PostgreSQL
> >> for VAX lately?
> >
> > Actually I tried a while ago but got stuck configuring the network on
> > simh so I could get all the tools. I can try again if there's interest
> > but we don't necessarily need to keep a port just because there's a
> > simulator for it.
>
> That's really up to you.  I'm not particularly interested in
> generating interest in maintaining this port if there wouldn't
> otherwise be any; I'm trying to figure out whether there is existing
> interest in it.  For all I know, <whatever>BSD is shipping PostgreSQL
> binaries for VAX and every other platform they support in each new
> release and people are using them to get real work done.  Then again,
> for all I know, it doesn't even compile on that platform, and if you
> did manage to get it to compile it wouldn't fit on the disk, and if
> you managed to fit it on the disk it wouldn't work because key system
> calls aren't supported.  If someone is still interested in this, I'm
> hoping they'll help us figure out whether it's anywhere close to
> working, and maybe even contribute a buildfarm critter.  If no one
> cares, then let's just rip it out and be done with it.
>
> --
> Robert Haas
> EnterpriseDB: http://www.enterprisedb.com
> The Enterprise PostgreSQL Company

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Re: [HACKERS] PostgreSQL for VAX on NetBSD/OpenBSD

Tom Lane
In reply to this post by Sebastian Reitenbach
"Sebastian Reitenbach" <[hidden email]> writes:
> OK, that was easy:

> $ cd /usr/ports/databases/postgresql                                  
> $ make install
> ===>  postgresql-client-9.3.4p0  requires shared libraries .

> OpenBSD VAX is static only, so no postgresql on OpenBSD
> VAX before shared libraries will ever be made working on it.

Ouch.  We long ago passed the point of no return as far as requiring
shared library support: there's too much backend functionality that's
in separate shared libraries rather than being linked directly into
the core executable.  I doubt anyone will be interested in taking on
the task of supporting a parallel all-static build.

I think this means we can write off VAX on NetBSD/OpenBSD as a viable
platform for Postgres :-(.  I'm sad to hear it, but certainly have
not got the cycles personally to prevent it.

                        regards, tom lane

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Re: [HACKERS] PostgreSQL for VAX on NetBSD/OpenBSD

Dave McGuire
On 06/24/2014 12:42 PM, Tom Lane wrote:

> "Sebastian Reitenbach" <[hidden email]> writes:
>> OK, that was easy:
>
>> $ cd /usr/ports/databases/postgresql                                  
>> $ make install
>> ===>  postgresql-client-9.3.4p0  requires shared libraries .
>
>> OpenBSD VAX is static only, so no postgresql on OpenBSD
>> VAX before shared libraries will ever be made working on it.
>
> Ouch.  We long ago passed the point of no return as far as requiring
> shared library support: there's too much backend functionality that's
> in separate shared libraries rather than being linked directly into
> the core executable.  I doubt anyone will be interested in taking on
> the task of supporting a parallel all-static build.
>
> I think this means we can write off VAX on NetBSD/OpenBSD as a viable
> platform for Postgres :-(.  I'm sad to hear it, but certainly have
> not got the cycles personally to prevent it.

  Nonono...NetBSD/vax has had shared library support for many years.
It's only OpenBSD that has that limitation.

                -Dave

--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ/3
New Kensington, PA

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Re: [HACKERS] PostgreSQL for VAX on NetBSD/OpenBSD

Paul Koning
In reply to this post by Tom Lane
On Jun 24, 2014, at 12:42 PM, Tom Lane <[hidden email]> wrote:

> "Sebastian Reitenbach" <[hidden email]> writes:
>> OK, that was easy:
>
>> $ cd /usr/ports/databases/postgresql                                  
>> $ make install
>> ===>  postgresql-client-9.3.4p0  requires shared libraries .
>
>> OpenBSD VAX is static only, so no postgresql on OpenBSD
>> VAX before shared libraries will ever be made working on it.
>
> Ouch.  We long ago passed the point of no return as far as requiring
> shared library support: there's too much backend functionality that's
> in separate shared libraries rather than being linked directly into
> the core executable.  I doubt anyone will be interested in taking on
> the task of supporting a parallel all-static build.
>
> I think this means we can write off VAX on NetBSD/OpenBSD as a viable
> platform for Postgres :-(.  I'm sad to hear it, but certainly have
> not got the cycles personally to prevent it.

NetBSD and OpenBSD are different systems.  I don’t remember if NetBSD supports shared libraries on VAX, but that’s independent of the fact that OpenBSD doesn’t.

        paul

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Re: [HACKERS] PostgreSQL for VAX on NetBSD/OpenBSD

Tom Lane
In reply to this post by Dave McGuire
Dave McGuire <[hidden email]> writes:
> On 06/24/2014 12:42 PM, Tom Lane wrote:
>> I think this means we can write off VAX on NetBSD/OpenBSD as a viable
>> platform for Postgres :-(.  I'm sad to hear it, but certainly have
>> not got the cycles personally to prevent it.

>   Nonono...NetBSD/vax has had shared library support for many years.
> It's only OpenBSD that has that limitation.

Ah, thanks for the clarification.

                        regards, tom lane

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Re: [HACKERS] PostgreSQL for VAX on NetBSD/OpenBSD

Alvaro Herrera
In reply to this post by Dave McGuire
Dave McGuire wrote:
> On 06/24/2014 12:42 PM, Tom Lane wrote:

> > I think this means we can write off VAX on NetBSD/OpenBSD as a viable
> > platform for Postgres :-(.  I'm sad to hear it, but certainly have
> > not got the cycles personally to prevent it.
>
>   Nonono...NetBSD/vax has had shared library support for many years.
> It's only OpenBSD that has that limitation.

So now we know that NetBSD/vax is free of the shared library limitation
that plagues OpenBSD, but does Postgres work on NetBSD/vax otherwise?

--
Álvaro Herrera                http://www.2ndQuadrant.com/
PostgreSQL Development, 24x7 Support, Training & Services

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Re: PostgreSQL for VAX on NetBSD/OpenBSD

John Klos
In reply to this post by Robert Haas
Hi,

> Has anyone tried to build PostgreSQL for VAX lately?  If so, did it
> compile?  Did you have to use --disable-spinlocks to get it to compile?
> If it did compile, can you actually run it, and does it pass the
> regression tests and work as expected?  Would you be willing to work
> with the PostgreSQL to ensure continuing support for this platform, or
> does that seem not worthwhile for whatever reason?

I've compiled postgresql93-client and postgresql93-server from pkgsrc on a
VAX running NetBSD 6.1.4. The initial launch didn't like the default stack
limit:

/etc/rc.d/pgsql start
Initializing PostgreSQL databases.
LOG:  invalid value for parameter "max_stack_depth": 100
DETAIL:  "max_stack_depth" must not exceed 0kB.
HINT:  Increase the platform's stack depth limit via "ulimit -s" or local
equivalent.
FATAL:  failed to initialize max_stack_depth to 100
child process exited with exit code 1
initdb: removing data directory "/usr/local/pgsql/data"
pg_ctl: database system initialization failed


I unlimited and tried again. The pgsql process showed it was using 146
megabytes of memory while initializing, then got as far as:

/etc/rc.d/pgsql start
Initializing PostgreSQL databases.

WARNING: enabling "trust" authentication for local connections
You can change this by editing pg_hba.conf or using the option -A, or
--auth-local and --auth-host, the next time you run initdb.
Starting pgsql.

Then the machine paniced. The serial console showed:

panic: usrptmap space leakage
cpu0: Begin traceback...
panic: usrptmap space leakage
Stack traceback :
          Process is executing in user space.
cpu0: End traceback...

dump to dev 9,1 not possible


It does compile and initialize, so the VAX code does work. However,
considering how much memory it uses, I wonder how many people would
actually use it. I did run Apache / MySQL / PHP on a VAXstation 4000/60
not long ago, but MySQL takes way too much memory, too. Don't even get me
started on how memory PHP uses - someone has to write some good weblog
software in C one of these days...

John

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Re: PostgreSQL for VAX on NetBSD/OpenBSD

Robert Haas
On Tue, Jun 24, 2014 at 10:16 PM, John Klos <[hidden email]> wrote:

>> Has anyone tried to build PostgreSQL for VAX lately?  If so, did it
>> compile?  Did you have to use --disable-spinlocks to get it to compile? If
>> it did compile, can you actually run it, and does it pass the regression
>> tests and work as expected?  Would you be willing to work with the
>> PostgreSQL to ensure continuing support for this platform, or does that seem
>> not worthwhile for whatever reason?
>
> I've compiled postgresql93-client and postgresql93-server from pkgsrc on a
> VAX running NetBSD 6.1.4. The initial launch didn't like the default stack
> limit:
>
> /etc/rc.d/pgsql start
> Initializing PostgreSQL databases.
> LOG:  invalid value for parameter "max_stack_depth": 100
> DETAIL:  "max_stack_depth" must not exceed 0kB.
> HINT:  Increase the platform's stack depth limit via "ulimit -s" or local
> equivalent.
> FATAL:  failed to initialize max_stack_depth to 100
> child process exited with exit code 1
> initdb: removing data directory "/usr/local/pgsql/data"
> pg_ctl: database system initialization failed
>
> I unlimited and tried again. The pgsql process showed it was using 146
> megabytes of memory while initializing, then got as far as:
>
> /etc/rc.d/pgsql start
> Initializing PostgreSQL databases.

What value did it select for shared_buffers?  How much memory does a
high-end VAX have?  These days, we try to set shared_buffers = 128MB
if the platform will support it, but it's supposed to fall back to
smaller values if that doesn't work.  It will try allocating that much
though, at least for a moment, to see whether it can.

--
Robert Haas
EnterpriseDB: http://www.enterprisedb.com
The Enterprise PostgreSQL Company

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Re: PostgreSQL for VAX on NetBSD/OpenBSD

John Klos
Hi,

> What value did it select for shared_buffers?  How much memory does a
> high-end VAX have?  These days, we try to set shared_buffers = 128MB
> if the platform will support it, but it's supposed to fall back to
> smaller values if that doesn't work.  It will try allocating that much
> though, at least for a moment, to see whether it can.

A high end VAX, such as a 4000 Model 108, can have 512 megs (as can an
11/780, at least in theory), but most of the VAXen used here are
VAXstations such as the 4000/60 or 4000/90, 90a or 96, which have either
104 megs or 128 megs.

I was trying it just using the default postgresql.conf. I changed it:

< max_connections = 10                  # (change requires restart)
> max_connections = 40                  # (change requires restart)
< shared_buffers = 16MB                 # min 128kB
> shared_buffers = 128MB                        # min 128kB
< temp_buffers = 2MB                    # min 800kB
< max_prepared_transactions = 0         # zero disables the feature
> #temp_buffers = 8MB                   # min 800kB
> #max_prepared_transactions = 0                # zero disables the feature
< maintenance_work_mem = 8MB            # min 1MB
< max_stack_depth = 1MB                 # min 100kB
> #maintenance_work_mem = 16MB          # min 1MB
> #max_stack_depth = 2MB                        # min 100kB
< max_files_per_process = 100           # min 25
> #max_files_per_process = 1000         # min 25


and it launched fine. I then tried to run:

gmake MAX_CONNECTIONS=5 installcheck

in /usr/pkgsrc/databases/postgresql93-server/work/postgresql-9.3.4/src/test/regress,
but it failed with:

...
gmake[2]: Leaving directory
'/usr/pkgsrc/databases/postgresql93-server/work/postgresql-9.3.4/src/backend'
gcc -O1 -fgcse -fstrength-reduce -fgcse-after-reload -I/usr/include
-I/usr/local/include -Wall -Wmissing-prototypes -Wpointer-arith
-Wdeclaration-after-statement -Wendif-labels -Wmissing-format-attribute
-Wformat-security -fno-strict-aliasing -fwrapv -pthread  -mt -D_REENTRANT
-D_THREAD_SAFE -D_POSIX_PTHREAD_SEMANTICS -I../../src/port -DFRONTEND
-I../../src/include -I/usr/include -I/usr/local/include   -c -o thread.o
thread.c
cc1: error: unrecognized
command line option "-mt" <builtin>: recipe for target 'thread.o' failed
gmake[1]: *** [thread.o] Error 1
gmake[1]: Leaving directory
'/usr/pkgsrc/databases/postgresql93-server/work/postgresql-9.3.4/src/port'
../../../src/Makefile.global:423: recipe for target 'submake-libpgport'
failed
gmake: *** [submake-libpgport] Error 2

That's all I have time for tonight. Is there an easier way to run a
testsuite?

Thanks,
John

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Re: PostgreSQL for VAX on NetBSD/OpenBSD

Toby Thain
In reply to this post by John Klos
On 24/06/14 10:16 PM, John Klos wrote:

> Hi,
>
>> Has anyone tried to build PostgreSQL for VAX lately?  If so, did it
>> compile?  Did you have to use --disable-spinlocks to get it to
>> compile? If it did compile, can you actually run it, and does it pass
>> the regression tests and work as expected?  Would you be willing to
>> work with the PostgreSQL to ensure continuing support for this
>> platform, or does that seem not worthwhile for whatever reason?
>
> I've compiled postgresql93-client and postgresql93-server from pkgsrc on
> a VAX running NetBSD 6.1.4. ...
> It does compile and initialize, so the VAX code does work. However,
> considering how much memory it uses, I wonder how many people would
> actually use it. I did run Apache / MySQL / PHP on a VAXstation 4000/60

I guess I shan't expect to run PgSQL on a MicroVAX II (9MB), NetBSD
1.4.1. I did get Apache 1.3.x built on it.

> not long ago, but MySQL takes way too much memory, too. Don't even get
> me started on how memory PHP uses - someone has to write some good
> weblog software in C one of these days...

If only C and PHP weren't the only options!

--T

>
> John

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Re: PostgreSQL for VAX on NetBSD/OpenBSD

David Brownlee-2
On 25 June 2014 12:38, Toby Thain <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 24/06/14 10:16 PM, John Klos wrote:
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>>> Has anyone tried to build PostgreSQL for VAX lately?  If so, did it
>>> compile?  Did you have to use --disable-spinlocks to get it to
>>> compile? If it did compile, can you actually run it, and does it pass
>>> the regression tests and work as expected?  Would you be willing to
>>> work with the PostgreSQL to ensure continuing support for this
>>> platform, or does that seem not worthwhile for whatever reason?
>>
>>
>> I've compiled postgresql93-client and postgresql93-server from pkgsrc on
>> a VAX running NetBSD 6.1.4. ...
>>
>> It does compile and initialize, so the VAX code does work. However,
>> considering how much memory it uses, I wonder how many people would
>> actually use it. I did run Apache / MySQL / PHP on a VAXstation 4000/60
>
> I guess I shan't expect to run PgSQL on a MicroVAX II (9MB), NetBSD 1.4.1. I
> did get Apache 1.3.x built on it.

I suspect it might technically be possible to run PgSQL on that
hardware - probably best done with an app on another box (maybe a
second uVAX II :) which is not in a particular hurry for query
responses

>> not long ago, but MySQL takes way too much memory, too. Don't even get
>> me started on how memory PHP uses - someone has to write some good
>> weblog software in C one of these days...
>
> If only C and PHP weren't the only options!

Tsk, how could we forget VAX MACRO assembler :-p

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Re: PostgreSQL for VAX on NetBSD/OpenBSD

Robert Haas
In reply to this post by John Klos
On Wed, Jun 25, 2014 at 5:30 AM, John Klos <[hidden email]> wrote:
> A high end VAX, such as a 4000 Model 108, can have 512 megs (as can an
> 11/780, at least in theory), but most of the VAXen used here are VAXstations
> such as the 4000/60 or 4000/90, 90a or 96, which have either 104 megs or 128
> megs.

Hmm, not bad for old hardware.

> and it launched fine. I then tried to run:
>
> gmake MAX_CONNECTIONS=5 installcheck
>
> in
> /usr/pkgsrc/databases/postgresql93-server/work/postgresql-9.3.4/src/test/regress,
> but it failed with:
>
> ...
> gmake[2]: Leaving directory
> '/usr/pkgsrc/databases/postgresql93-server/work/postgresql-9.3.4/src/backend'
> gcc -O1 -fgcse -fstrength-reduce -fgcse-after-reload -I/usr/include
> -I/usr/local/include -Wall -Wmissing-prototypes -Wpointer-arith
> -Wdeclaration-after-statement -Wendif-labels -Wmissing-format-attribute
> -Wformat-security -fno-strict-aliasing -fwrapv -pthread  -mt -D_REENTRANT
> -D_THREAD_SAFE -D_POSIX_PTHREAD_SEMANTICS -I../../src/port -DFRONTEND
> -I../../src/include -I/usr/include -I/usr/local/include   -c -o thread.o
> thread.c
> cc1: error: unrecognized command line option "-mt" <builtin>: recipe for
> target 'thread.o' failed
> gmake[1]: *** [thread.o] Error 1
> gmake[1]: Leaving directory
> '/usr/pkgsrc/databases/postgresql93-server/work/postgresql-9.3.4/src/port'
> ../../../src/Makefile.global:423: recipe for target 'submake-libpgport'
> failed
> gmake: *** [submake-libpgport] Error 2
>
> That's all I have time for tonight. Is there an easier way to run a
> testsuite?

I think you're doing it right, but apparently configure is
mis-identifying which flags are needed for thread-safety on your
platform.  It's possible configuring with --disable-thread-safety
would help, or you could manually edit the Makefile.

In any case I'm coming to the conclusion that there's little point in
us keeping the VAX-specific code in our source tree, because in fact,
this port is broken and doesn't work.  Based on your results thus far,
I doubt that it would be a huge amount of work to fix that, but unless
somebody from the VAX community wants to volunteer to be a PostgreSQL
maintainer for that platform, straighten out the things that have
gotten broken since this port was originally added, and keep it
working on an ongoing basis, it's probably not going to happen.

--
Robert Haas
EnterpriseDB: http://www.enterprisedb.com
The Enterprise PostgreSQL Company

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Re: PostgreSQL for VAX on NetBSD/OpenBSD

Dave McGuire
In reply to this post by John Klos
On 06/25/2014 05:30 AM, John Klos wrote:

>> What value did it select for shared_buffers?  How much memory does a
>> high-end VAX have?  These days, we try to set shared_buffers = 128MB
>> if the platform will support it, but it's supposed to fall back to
>> smaller values if that doesn't work.  It will try allocating that much
>> though, at least for a moment, to see whether it can.
>
> A high end VAX, such as a 4000 Model 108, can have 512 megs (as can an
> 11/780, at least in theory), but most of the VAXen used here are
> VAXstations such as the 4000/60 or 4000/90, 90a or 96, which have either
> 104 megs or 128 megs.

  My VAX-7000 has 1.5GB. B-)

            -Dave

--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ/3
New Kensington, PA

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Re: PostgreSQL for VAX on NetBSD/OpenBSD

John Klos
In reply to this post by Robert Haas
>> That's all I have time for tonight. Is there an easier way to run a
>> testsuite?
>
> I think you're doing it right, but apparently configure is
> mis-identifying which flags are needed for thread-safety on your
> platform.  It's possible configuring with --disable-thread-safety
> would help, or you could manually edit the Makefile.

I'll play with it some more in a little bit. This is why I tend to trust
the pkgsrc framework - it just works.

> In any case I'm coming to the conclusion that there's little point in
> us keeping the VAX-specific code in our source tree, because in fact,
> this port is broken and doesn't work.  Based on your results thus far,
> I doubt that it would be a huge amount of work to fix that, but unless
> somebody from the VAX community wants to volunteer to be a PostgreSQL
> maintainer for that platform, straighten out the things that have
> gotten broken since this port was originally added, and keep it
> working on an ongoing basis, it's probably not going to happen.

While I wouldn't be surprised if you remove the VAX code because not many
people are going to be running PostgreSQL, I'd disagree with the
assessment that this port is broken. It compiles, it initializes
databases, it runs, et cetera, albeit not with the default postgresql.conf.

I'm actually rather impressed at how well PostgreSQL can be adjusted to
lower memory systems. I deploy a lot of embedded systems with 128 megs (a
lot for an embedded system, but nothing compared with what everyone else
assumes), so I'll be checking out PostgreSQL for other uses.

NetBSD's VAX port does lots to help ensure code portability and code
correctness, so it's not going anywhere any time soon. It certainly is a
good sign that PostgreSQL can run on a VAX with only 20 MB or so of
resident memory.

Thanks,
John

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