Port ZFS to OpenBSD

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Port ZFS to OpenBSD

Khalid Schofield-3
Dev's.

What are the chances of getting a port of ZFS to OpenBSD? I can't  
quite bring myself to run solaris since it lacks so much of what I  
love about OpenBSD and Linux is back to square one because of the  
reasons I moved to OpenBSD.

Khalid

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Re: Port ZFS to OpenBSD

Dieter-17
> What are the chances of getting a port of ZFS to OpenBSD? I can't  
> quite bring myself to run solaris since it lacks so much of what I  
> love about OpenBSD and Linux is back to square one because of the  
> reasons I moved to OpenBSD.

Have you ruled out FreeBSD?

Why are so many people so hot for ZFS?  From what little I've read
about it, it sounds very complex, which means bugs and a nasty learning
curve.  Not something I'm interested in trusting my data to.

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Re: Port ZFS to OpenBSD

Janne Johansson
In reply to this post by Khalid Schofield-3
Khalid Schofield wrote:
> Dev's.
> What are the chances of getting a port of ZFS to OpenBSD?

If you just sit and wait for it, I'd say: "zero to very-little".

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Re: Port ZFS to OpenBSD

fuzzyping
In reply to this post by Khalid Schofield-3
On Thu, Jan 15, 2009 at 03:21:19PM +0000, Khalid Schofield wrote:
> Dev's.
>
> What are the chances of getting a port of ZFS to OpenBSD? I can't quite
> bring myself to run solaris since it lacks so much of what I love about
> OpenBSD and Linux is back to square one because of the reasons I moved to
> OpenBSD.

About the same as porting anything substantial to OpenBSD.  The
developer must be passionate about the project and have the resources
(time, money) to accomplish it[1].  There is no way to quantify the odds
of this happening.  I see no code attached to your email, so I presume
you're not volunteering.


[1] Not even taking into account any licensing implications.

--
Jason Dixon
DixonGroup Consulting
http://www.dixongroup.net/

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Re: Port ZFS to OpenBSD

Josh Grosse
In reply to this post by Khalid Schofield-3
On Thu, 15 Jan 2009 15:21:19 +0000, Khalid Schofield wrote
> Dev's.
>
> What are the chances of getting a port of ZFS to OpenBSD? I can't  
> quite bring myself to run solaris since it lacks so much of what I  
> love about OpenBSD and Linux is back to square one because of the  
> reasons I moved to OpenBSD.
>
> Khalid

Start here: http://marc.info/?l=openbsd-misc&m=113231622523921&w=2

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Re: Port ZFS to OpenBSD

Marco Peereboom
In reply to this post by Khalid Schofield-3
Why don't you write a port?

You can do the kernel pieces using .ko (like kqemu for example).

On Thu, Jan 15, 2009 at 03:21:19PM +0000, Khalid Schofield wrote:
> Dev's.
>
> What are the chances of getting a port of ZFS to OpenBSD? I can't quite
> bring myself to run solaris since it lacks so much of what I love about
> OpenBSD and Linux is back to square one because of the reasons I moved to
> OpenBSD.
>
> Khalid

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Re: Port ZFS to OpenBSD

Khalid Schofield-3
Ha you flatter me! You really want my code in the OpenBSD kernel!



On 15 Jan 2009, at 15:35, Marco Peereboom wrote:

> Why don't you write a port?
>
> You can do the kernel pieces using .ko (like kqemu for example).
>
> On Thu, Jan 15, 2009 at 03:21:19PM +0000, Khalid Schofield wrote:
>> Dev's.
>>
>> What are the chances of getting a port of ZFS to OpenBSD? I can't  
>> quite
>> bring myself to run solaris since it lacks so much of what I love  
>> about
>> OpenBSD and Linux is back to square one because of the reasons I  
>> moved to
>> OpenBSD.
>>
>> Khalid

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Re: Port ZFS to OpenBSD

Khalid Schofield-3
In reply to this post by Josh Grosse
Yeh just been reading that actually before I emailed misc@....



On 15 Jan 2009, at 15:34, Josh Grosse wrote:

> On Thu, 15 Jan 2009 15:21:19 +0000, Khalid Schofield wrote
>> Dev's.
>>
>> What are the chances of getting a port of ZFS to OpenBSD? I can't
>> quite bring myself to run solaris since it lacks so much of what I
>> love about OpenBSD and Linux is back to square one because of the
>> reasons I moved to OpenBSD.
>>
>> Khalid
>
> Start here: http://marc.info/?l=openbsd-misc&m=113231622523921&w=2

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Re: Port ZFS to OpenBSD

Dave Wilson-7
In reply to this post by Khalid Schofield-3
Khalid Schofield wrote:

> Dev's.
>
> What are the chances of getting a port of ZFS to OpenBSD? I can't quite
> bring myself to run solaris since it lacks so much of what I love about
> OpenBSD and Linux is back to square one because of the reasons I moved
> to OpenBSD.
>
> Khalid
>
>

Given the Dev's have answered this one before, and have better things to
do, I shall take it upon myself. I'm sure they will correct me if I'm
mistaken.

The ZFS code is under a license which the OpenBSD team have deemed
incompatible with the BSD License they use. [0]

Whilst there could be a FUSE-based implementation of ZFS on OpenBSD, and
indeed I think one may have already been started, to properly take
advantage of the strength of ZFS the code would have to be in the
kernel. Performance will suck if nothing else.

If its not BSD-licensed code, its not going in the kernel. End of
discussion. Said policy has been a universal truism of OpenBSD since it
began.

I would suggest, if you want XFS in OpenBSD[1], set about persuading Sun
to re-release the ZFS code as BSD-licensed. Indeed, I think given it
would have to be kernel code, I really do mean BSD-licensed rather than
BSD-license-compatible.

And when you do, be sure to remember to buy Satan some mittens.


--

SD



[0] http://marc.info/?l=openbsd-tech&m=110806948606417&w=2
[1] Which I personally would love to see.

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Re: Port ZFS to OpenBSD

bofh-6
On Thu, Jan 15, 2009 at 10:55 AM, Dave Wilson
<[hidden email]> wrote:
> I would suggest, if you want XFS in OpenBSD[1], set about persuading Sun
> to re-release the ZFS code as BSD-licensed. Indeed, I think given it
> would have to be kernel code, I really do mean BSD-licensed rather than
> BSD-license-compatible.

I have to ask - if you're not copying the code, but only copying the
concept/technical requirements over (ie, a rewrite), that new code
would be bsd licensed, right?


--
http://www.glumbert.com/media/shift
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tGvHNNOLnCk
"This officer's men seem to follow him merely out of idle curiosity."
-- Sandhurst officer cadet evaluation.
"Securing an environment of Windows platforms from abuse - external or
internal - is akin to trying to install sprinklers in a fireworks
factory where smoking on the job is permitted."  -- Gene Spafford
learn french:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j1G-3laJJP0&feature=related

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Re: Port ZFS to OpenBSD

fuzzyping
In reply to this post by Dave Wilson-7
On Thu, Jan 15, 2009 at 03:55:51PM +0000, Dave Wilson wrote:

> Khalid Schofield wrote:
> > Dev's.
> >
> > What are the chances of getting a port of ZFS to OpenBSD? I can't quite
> > bring myself to run solaris since it lacks so much of what I love about
> > OpenBSD and Linux is back to square one because of the reasons I moved
> > to OpenBSD.
>
> Given the Dev's have answered this one before, and have better things to
> do, I shall take it upon myself. I'm sure they will correct me if I'm
> mistaken.
>
> The ZFS code is under a license which the OpenBSD team have deemed
> incompatible with the BSD License they use. [0]
>
> Whilst there could be a FUSE-based implementation of ZFS on OpenBSD, and
> indeed I think one may have already been started, to properly take
> advantage of the strength of ZFS the code would have to be in the
> kernel. Performance will suck if nothing else.
>
> If its not BSD-licensed code, its not going in the kernel. End of
> discussion. Said policy has been a universal truism of OpenBSD since it
> began.

As marco already stated, it could be a kernel module.  But it won't.
Why?  Because nobody will write it.  End of discussion, the rest is
noise.

P.S.  Personally, as much as I'd love to see ZFS in OpenBSD, I think
dtrace would be much more useful.

--
Jason Dixon
DixonGroup Consulting
http://www.dixongroup.net/

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Re: Port ZFS to OpenBSD

Peter Kay (Syllopsium)
In reply to this post by bofh-6
>From: "bofh" <[hidden email]>

> I have to ask - if you're not copying the code, but only copying the
> concept/technical requirements over (ie, a rewrite), that new code
> would be bsd licensed, right?
Probably, but this is filesystem code. The last thing you want to do is to
replace complex, generally well debugged code with new complex not
so well debugged code!

That applies for all software, but doubly so for code that can corrupt
data and crash the entire system.

PK

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Re: Port ZFS to OpenBSD

Sevan / Venture37-2
In reply to this post by Dave Wilson-7
The hammer FS seems promising from the BSDtalk Will & Matthew did.


Sevan / Venture37

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Re: Port ZFS to OpenBSD

fuzzyping
On Thu, Jan 15, 2009 at 05:38:32PM +0000, Sevan / Venture37 wrote:
> The hammer FS seems promising from the BSDtalk Will & Matthew did.

HAMMER is a completely different beast.  From my understanding, it
attempts to avoid failures through clustering.  But it doesn't have the
resiliency to avoid data corruption, nor the recovery functionality, of
ZFS.

There was a thread recently on dragonfly-users that covered much of
this.

http://leaf.dragonflybsd.org/mailarchive/users/2009-01/msg00058.html

--
Jason Dixon
DixonGroup Consulting
http://www.dixongroup.net/

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Re: Port ZFS to OpenBSD

Jordi Espasa Clofent-3
In reply to this post by Sevan / Venture37-2
Extracted from http://www.dragonflybsd.org/hammer/index.shtml:

"If you are interesting in porting HAMMER to another OS, please drop me
a line at dillon at backplane.com. I will be creating a new DragonFly
mailing list specifically for HAMMER porting as well as a git or
mercurial repository (I haven't decided which yet) separate from the
DragonFly repository. "

--
Thanks,
Jordi Espasa Clofent

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Re: Port ZFS to OpenBSD

Johan Beisser
In reply to this post by Sevan / Venture37-2
On Jan 15, 2009, at 9:38 AM, Sevan / Venture37 wrote:

> The hammer FS seems promising from the BSDtalk Will & Matthew did.

Outside of a single person who's doing porting (to an unknown OS),  
there's not been much in the way of updates on the status. It's a BETA  
filesystem at best, and still being tested with the 2.0 release of  
DragonFly.

2.1 seems promising, but HAMMER doesn't seem as well developed as one  
might hope.

http://gitweb.dragonflybsd.org/dragonfly.git?a=search&h=HEAD&st=commit&s=HAMMER

FWIW, there's no license restriction I spotted in DragonflyBSD that  
would prevent it being ported, if one were motivated to.

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Re: Port ZFS to OpenBSD

Abel Camarillo
In reply to this post by bofh-6
On Thu, Jan 15, 2009 at 11:26:33AM -0500, bofh wrote:

> On Thu, Jan 15, 2009 at 10:55 AM, Dave Wilson
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > I would suggest, if you want XFS in OpenBSD[1], set about persuading Sun
> > to re-release the ZFS code as BSD-licensed. Indeed, I think given it
> > would have to be kernel code, I really do mean BSD-licensed rather than
> > BSD-license-compatible.
>
> I have to ask - if you're not copying the code, but only copying the
> concept/technical requirements over (ie, a rewrite), that new code
> would be bsd licensed, right?
>

Yea but sun have patents over ZFS `concepts` [see wikipedia, google].
And the CDDL grants you a license. so you can't use another.

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Re: Port ZFS to OpenBSD

bofh-6
In reply to this post by Dieter-17
On Thu, Jan 15, 2009 at 5:06 AM, Dieter <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Why are so many people so hot for ZFS?  From what little I've read
> about it, it sounds very complex, which means bugs and a nasty learning
> curve.  Not something I'm interested in trusting my data to.

The amount testing they told us about is pretty incredible.  The
design looks pretty interesting.  After a couple of years of testing
in the wild, there hasn't been too many serious horror stories.  The
one bit flipflop starts becoming more common at the terabyte level.

And it is pretty sexy to bit.


--
http://www.glumbert.com/media/shift
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tGvHNNOLnCk
"This officer's men seem to follow him merely out of idle curiosity."
-- Sandhurst officer cadet evaluation.
"Securing an environment of Windows platforms from abuse - external or
internal - is akin to trying to install sprinklers in a fireworks
factory where smoking on the job is permitted."  -- Gene Spafford
learn french:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j1G-3laJJP0&feature=related

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Re: Port ZFS to OpenBSD

Janne Johansson
In reply to this post by Dieter-17
Dieter wrote:

>> What are the chances of getting a port of ZFS to OpenBSD? I can't  
>> quite bring myself to run solaris since it lacks so much of what I  
>> love about OpenBSD and Linux is back to square one because of the  
>> reasons I moved to OpenBSD.
>
> Have you ruled out FreeBSD?
>
> Why are so many people so hot for ZFS?  From what little I've read
> about it, it sounds very complex, which means bugs and a nasty learning
> curve.  Not something I'm interested in trusting my data to.

Then again, you give the zfs a name, and throw it a list of raw devices
and you can have that filesystem 'newfs'ed, writeable, nfsexported and
running in a more than usual fault-tolerant raided mode in mere seconds
regardless of size.

Some admins value that. (except the nfs part, but it's optional)

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Re: Port ZFS to OpenBSD

Khalid Schofield-3
On 16 Jan 2009, at 06:51, Janne Johansson wrote:

> Dieter wrote:
>>> What are the chances of getting a port of ZFS to OpenBSD? I can't  
>>> quite bring myself to run solaris since it lacks so much of what  
>>> I  love about OpenBSD and Linux is back to square one because of  
>>> the  reasons I moved to OpenBSD.
>> Have you ruled out FreeBSD?
>> Why are so many people so hot for ZFS?  From what little I've read
>> about it, it sounds very complex, which means bugs and a nasty  
>> learning
>> curve.  Not something I'm interested in trusting my data to.
>
> Then again, you give the zfs a name, and throw it a list of raw  
> devices and you can have that filesystem 'newfs'ed, writeable,  
> nfsexported and running in a more than usual fault-tolerant raided  
> mode in mere seconds regardless of size.
>
> Some admins value that. (except the nfs part, but it's optional)

I like nfs!

12