OpenBSD kernel janitors

classic Classic list List threaded Threaded
79 messages Options
1234
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

OpenBSD kernel janitors

Karel Kulhavy
Is there a list similar to Linux kernel janitors also for OpenBSD? It's a list
of tasks for which you don't have to be experienced in the particular OS
internals to be able to complete them properly.

CL<

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: OpenBSD kernel janitors

Miod Vallat
> Is there a list similar to Linux kernel janitors also for OpenBSD? It's a list
> of tasks for which you don't have to be experienced in the particular OS
> internals to be able to complete them properly.

No, there isn't.

There are, however, two de-facto janitors for the OpenBSD kernels:
martin@ and I. Those janitors, however, are experienced developers.

Quite frankly, the idea of the janitor being a rookie scares the hell
out of me. How can you trust people if these people admittedly do not
know what they are doing, or why they are doing things one way and not
another?

That said, I have a huge todolist, as a brain dump in text format. A
good quarter of it are simple tasks, which one may consider janitor
level.

I am even considering posting it to tech@ on a rainy day with a bit more
details.

I am adamant I'll find volunteers to work on the various items.

But in order to be able to trust their work, I'll need to share
knowledge and make sure these people are smart and bold enough to
understand what they are doing.

This is not a problem, per se. The problem is - as usual - time. There
are items on my list I don't have time to do, which would take me N
hours.

If I need to talk to someone and ``hold his/her hand'' and guide
him/her for 4*N hours, I've lost even more time.

I am not reluctant to share my experience. I just don't have enough time
to do this, and I can not guarantee I'll be able to devote those 4*N
hours to someone to help him/her get started and work on nice things.

That's a waste, because these janitoring tasks make you learn a lot of
things in no time.

But I don't want to betray the trust of people willing to help, as long
as I am able to help them get started until they can fly by themselves,
by not being there enough time in the beginning.

Working on the kernel is not something you can do with a ``1 hour every
week or every month'' rate. You need to dive for a longer time,
especially at the beginning, because there are many things to get
acquainted with. That's when you need as much support as possible. And
that's the kind of support I, as an individual, can not provide.

Miod

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: OpenBSD kernel janitors

Gerardo Santana Gómez Garrido
2007/10/30, Miod Vallat <[hidden email]>:

> > Is there a list similar to Linux kernel janitors also for OpenBSD? It's a list
> > of tasks for which you don't have to be experienced in the particular OS
> > internals to be able to complete them properly.
>
> No, there isn't.
>
> There are, however, two de-facto janitors for the OpenBSD kernels:
> martin@ and I. Those janitors, however, are experienced developers.
>
> Quite frankly, the idea of the janitor being a rookie scares the hell
> out of me. How can you trust people if these people admittedly do not
> know what they are doing, or why they are doing things one way and not
> another?
>
> That said, I have a huge todolist, as a brain dump in text format. A
> good quarter of it are simple tasks, which one may consider janitor
> level.
>
> I am even considering posting it to tech@ on a rainy day with a bit more
> details.
>
> I am adamant I'll find volunteers to work on the various items.
>
> But in order to be able to trust their work, I'll need to share
> knowledge and make sure these people are smart and bold enough to
> understand what they are doing.
>
> This is not a problem, per se. The problem is - as usual - time. There
> are items on my list I don't have time to do, which would take me N
> hours.
>
> If I need to talk to someone and ``hold his/her hand'' and guide
> him/her for 4*N hours, I've lost even more time.
>
> I am not reluctant to share my experience. I just don't have enough time
> to do this, and I can not guarantee I'll be able to devote those 4*N
> hours to someone to help him/her get started and work on nice things.
>
> That's a waste, because these janitoring tasks make you learn a lot of
> things in no time.
>
> But I don't want to betray the trust of people willing to help, as long
> as I am able to help them get started until they can fly by themselves,
> by not being there enough time in the beginning.
>
> Working on the kernel is not something you can do with a ``1 hour every
> week or every month'' rate. You need to dive for a longer time,
> especially at the beginning, because there are many things to get
> acquainted with. That's when you need as much support as possible. And
> that's the kind of support I, as an individual, can not provide.
>
> Miod

I had a similar problem at work.

After investing a lot of time training a new engineer to accomplish
[database, servers, network] administration tasks, taking his/her
hand, guiding him/her through the steps I want him/her to make things
the-way-I-want-it... they leave.

And I have to start all over again with the next engineer. I was tired of that.

The last time, I made her write the documentation in Docbook,
foolproof guides, for the next engineer. Problem solved, more or less.

Marc Espie is so good at that for example. Anybody with basic skills
and enough interest can port software to OpenBSD.

My point is that maybe instead of tutoring a person, time is better
used writing documentation or guidelines about where to start, what
steps to follow and how to do things the-way-you-want. These documents
will reach more people and have more impact than tutoring someone.

I would bring art@ to the discussion too, who has been reluctant to
tutoring people but that has a lot of knowledge that would be a pitty
that he gets hit by a truck before sharing some! ;-)

Or probably the documentation of the kernel itself as a project would
help. [Recalling...] which was Espie's idea sometime ago. Well Karel,
you may start with this.

Just my 20 centavos.

--
Gerardo Santana

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: OpenBSD kernel janitors

ttw+bsd-2
In reply to this post by Miod Vallat
On 30.10-20:26, Miod Vallat wrote:
>         [ ... ]  That's when you need as much support as possible. And
> that's the kind of support I, as an individual, can not provide.

i believe the task list itself would be positive , even if not much
happens around it.  they are good for the community as well as the
codebase.

you are not commiting yourself to mentoring and tutoring every idiot
who wants a crack at the kernel, you're simply saying, "look if you
think you're good enough to do the work, here are some things that i
know, from my experience, need done".  the learning and effort comes
from interested parties.  this sort of delegation does work in other
projects, perhaps if we have a good list we can figure out how to make
it work here too.

--
        t
 t
                 w

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: OpenBSD kernel janitors

Marcus Andree
Agreed....

I needed to peek OpenBSD code a couple months ago and found it
extremely readable. Doing simple tasks can be a better path leading
to new kernel engineers.

Just posting your task list on this list isn't a commitment to coach
new developers, but can provide a solid material to start coding.

Obviously patches will be subject to peer review. Even if a patch isn't
approved, the coder should have learned something new and useful.

On 10/30/07, n0g0013 <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 30.10-20:26, Miod Vallat wrote:
> >         [ ... ]  That's when you need as much support as possible. And
> > that's the kind of support I, as an individual, can not provide.
>
> i believe the task list itself would be positive , even if not much
> happens around it.  they are good for the community as well as the
> codebase.
>
> you are not commiting yourself to mentoring and tutoring every idiot
> who wants a crack at the kernel, you're simply saying, "look if you
> think you're good enough to do the work, here are some things that i
> know, from my experience, need done".  the learning and effort comes
> from interested parties.  this sort of delegation does work in other
> projects, perhaps if we have a good list we can figure out how to make
> it work here too.
>
> --
>         t
>  t
>                  w

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: OpenBSD kernel janitors

Dave Wilson-7
In reply to this post by Gerardo Santana Gómez Garrido
Gerardo Santana Gsmez Garrido wrote:

> 2007/10/30, Miod Vallat <[hidden email]>:
>  
>>> Is there a list similar to Linux kernel janitors also for OpenBSD? It's a list
>>> of tasks for which you don't have to be experienced in the particular OS
>>> internals to be able to complete them properly.
>>>      
>> No, there isn't.
>>
>> There are, however, two de-facto janitors for the OpenBSD kernels:
>> martin@ and I. Those janitors, however, are experienced developers.
>>
>> Quite frankly, the idea of the janitor being a rookie scares the hell
>> out of me. How can you trust people if these people admittedly do not
>> know what they are doing, or why they are doing things one way and not
>> another?
>>
>> That said, I have a huge todolist, as a brain dump in text format. A
>> good quarter of it are simple tasks, which one may consider janitor
>> level.
>>
>> I am even considering posting it to tech@ on a rainy day with a bit more
>> details.
>>
>> I am adamant I'll find volunteers to work on the various items.
>>
>> But in order to be able to trust their work, I'll need to share
>> knowledge and make sure these people are smart and bold enough to
>> understand what they are doing.
>>
>> This is not a problem, per se. The problem is - as usual - time. There
>> are items on my list I don't have time to do, which would take me N
>> hours.
>>
>> If I need to talk to someone and ``hold his/her hand'' and guide
>> him/her for 4*N hours, I've lost even more time.
>>
>> I am not reluctant to share my experience. I just don't have enough time
>> to do this, and I can not guarantee I'll be able to devote those 4*N
>> hours to someone to help him/her get started and work on nice things.
>>
>> That's a waste, because these janitoring tasks make you learn a lot of
>> things in no time.
>>
>> But I don't want to betray the trust of people willing to help, as long
>> as I am able to help them get started until they can fly by themselves,
>> by not being there enough time in the beginning.
>>
>> Working on the kernel is not something you can do with a ``1 hour every
>> week or every month'' rate. You need to dive for a longer time,
>> especially at the beginning, because there are many things to get
>> acquainted with. That's when you need as much support as possible. And
>> that's the kind of support I, as an individual, can not provide.
>>
>> Miod
>>    
>
> I had a similar problem at work.
>
> After investing a lot of time training a new engineer to accomplish
> [database, servers, network] administration tasks, taking his/her
> hand, guiding him/her through the steps I want him/her to make things
> the-way-I-want-it... they leave.
>
> And I have to start all over again with the next engineer. I was tired of that.
>
> The last time, I made her write the documentation in Docbook,
> foolproof guides, for the next engineer. Problem solved, more or less.
>
> Marc Espie is so good at that for example. Anybody with basic skills
> and enough interest can port software to OpenBSD.
>
> My point is that maybe instead of tutoring a person, time is better
> used writing documentation or guidelines about where to start, what
> steps to follow and how to do things the-way-you-want. These documents
> will reach more people and have more impact than tutoring someone.
>  
Alternatively, perhaps 'Kernel Janitor' is the wrong way to put it. In
my mind, two of the big wins for OpenBSD are the documentation, and the
fact that the system is but together as a whole, kernel and binaries.
Whilst the kernel itself may be too high a jumping-off point for
inexperienced people, might some of the simpler bits of userspace be a
gentler introduction?

One thing I have noted on the commit list, is the number of commits of
documentation/comment typo fixes, bringing things in line with style(9),
and the like. I will freely admit that I can't code for toffee, but I am
an experienced proofreader, and I can generally pick my way through
existing code and  follow what it does. If there were a list of 'These
man pages need proofreading', or 'These source files could do with a
style(9) audit', I could (and would, oh dear...) give hours of my time
to the project.

I would hope that proofreading-type tasks would require minimal
hand-holding from the experienced devs, barring looking at completed
diffs and giving feedback. I would not wish to take away any time from
those more capable than I, but I do believe with a small amount of
assistance I and people like me could make a contribution.

With respect to 'Foolproof guides for new engineers', if anyone is
considering such a thing I would happily help lay them out and collate
them. Perhaps you don't want engineers who would like a foolproof guide
though? :-)

This is me chucking my hat into the ring, to try and do my duty
according to the last two points under
http://www.openbsd.org/faq/faq1.html#Support :-D

Si1entDave

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: OpenBSD kernel janitors

Theo de Raadt
In reply to this post by Marcus Andree
> Just posting your task list on this list isn't a commitment to coach
> new developers, but can provide a solid material to start coding.

They don't need a list.  They could already have started coding.  Yet
we see how few people actually do start coding.  Instead, they choose
to write in english...

> Obviously patches will be subject to peer review. Even if a patch isn't
> approved, the coder should have learned something new and useful.

Yeah, right.

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: OpenBSD kernel janitors

Nick Guenther
On 10/31/07, Theo de Raadt <[hidden email]> wrote:

> They don't need a list.  They could already have started coding.  Yet
> we see how few people actually do start coding.  Instead, they choose
> to write in english...

How can we get started on the code unless we have some idea of where
to start on the code? Sure we could just code whatever, but why would
we waste time on things that may be useless?

> > Obviously patches will be subject to peer review. Even if a patch isn't
> > approved, the coder should have learned something new and useful.
>
> Yeah, right.

I don't understand. Is newbies learning new things a waste to you? Do
you think they won't really learn anything unless the patch is
approved? Or will the patches not be subject to peer review? Or are
you worried at who would pass for peer review getting overwhelmed by a
huge volume of poor quality patches?

-Nick

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: OpenBSD kernel janitors

Theo de Raadt
In reply to this post by Karel Kulhavy
        On 10/31/07, Theo de Raadt <[hidden email]> wrote:

        > They don't need a list.  They could already have started coding.  Yet
        > we see how few people actually do start coding.  Instead, they choose
        > to write in english...

        How can we get started on the code unless we have some idea of where
        to start on the code? Sure we could just code whatever, but why would
        we waste time on things that may be useless?

        > > Obviously patches will be subject to peer review. Even if a patch isn't
        > > approved, the coder should have learned something new and useful.
        >
        > Yeah, right.

        I don't understand. Is newbies learning new things a waste to you? Do
        you think they won't really learn anything unless the patch is
        approved? Or will the patches not be subject to peer review? Or are
        you worried at who would pass for peer review getting overwhelmed by a
        huge volume of poor quality patches?

Man, you've got a lot of anger to deal with.

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: OpenBSD kernel janitors

Tony Aberenthy
In reply to this post by Nick Guenther
Nick Guenther wrote:

>
> On 10/31/07, Theo de Raadt <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > They don't need a list.  They could already have started
> coding.  Yet
> > we see how few people actually do start coding.  Instead,
> they choose
> > to write in english...
>
> How can we get started on the code unless we have some idea of where
> to start on the code? Sure we could just code whatever, but why would
> we waste time on things that may be useless?

It's almost like
If you've gotta ask,
Don't ask.

>
> > > Obviously patches will be subject to peer review. Even if
> a patch isn't
> > > approved, the coder should have learned something new and useful.
> >
> > Yeah, right.
>
> I don't understand. Is newbies learning new things a waste to you? Do
> you think they won't really learn anything unless the patch is
> approved? Or will the patches not be subject to peer review? Or are
> you worried at who would pass for peer review getting overwhelmed by a
> huge volume of poor quality patches?

I do not speak for the developers,
but I think maybe I know where they are coming from.
You get into this, not to do some good and useful,
but as a violent and visceral reaction to bad code.
(bad something anyway)
Essentially: This stinks. There's gotta be a better way.
Or this has to be easy.
And go to enourmous trouble to show that it is easy.
Probably closer to mountain climbing than anything in current cs curricula.



>
> -Nick

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: OpenBSD kernel janitors

beck-7
In reply to this post by Nick Guenther
* Nick Guenther <[hidden email]> [2007-10-31 08:40]:
> On 10/31/07, Theo de Raadt <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > They don't need a list.  They could already have started coding.  Yet
> > we see how few people actually do start coding.  Instead, they choose
> > to write in english...
>
> How can we get started on the code unless we have some idea of where
> to start on the code? Sure we could just code whatever, but why would
> we waste time on things that may be useless?

        Simple. You start reading code.
>
> > > Obviously patches will be subject to peer review. Even if a patch isn't
> > > approved, the coder should have learned something new and useful.
> >
> > Yeah, right.
>
> I don't understand. Is newbies learning new things a waste to you? Do
> you think they won't really learn anything unless the patch is
> approved?

        No, newbies learn something by reading code. and finding
something they are interested and passionate enough in to learn
how something very difficult works, then realizing that they are
a complete idiot and it doesn't work that way, and then doing it
again, several times.  

> Or will the patches not be subject to peer review? Or are
> you worried at who would pass for peer review getting overwhelmed by a
> huge volume of poor quality patches?

        Yes, and yes.

        Basically look, when it comes to the kernel there are two
types of student, the self taught, and the hopeless. While we
will more than be willing to help people who take the initiative themselves
to look for something and work on it. This takes a significant amount
of our time and energy. A lot of it actually.  Yes, learning the kernel
and how the basics work is a barrier to entry. It needs to be so, people
without the motivation to get over that hump on their own will simply
sap too much time from the people who have otherwise.

        Basically I'm telling you, if you want to play in this area, you need
to earn your stripes. *earn* - not have shown to you. Sorry if that
sounds elitist, but that's the simple fact. Already overworked senior
developers do not have time to spoon feed people who already
demonstrate that they will not take the initiative to learn things on
their own. Sorry, that's just the facts guys. It's the difference between:

1) Help me, I don't know how this works but it's cool I want to do things.
   - Did you try to figure it out?
   No please show me. Tell me what to do... <sit and wait for direction>

and

2) Ok, I think this is important, and I think it works this way...
   - No you're not quite right, your assumptions are wrong at a, b, and c
     go back and try again
   Oh, ok <goto top>


Number 2 gets to doing useful things a hell of a lot faster, and the
time spent by the person giving the "-" reply is a heck of a lot more
productive.

        -Bob

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: OpenBSD kernel janitors

ttw+bsd-2
In reply to this post by Theo de Raadt
On 31.10-08:20, Theo de Raadt wrote:
[ ... ]
> They don't need a list.  They could already have started coding.  Yet
> we see how few people actually do start coding.  Instead, they choose
> to write in english...

on the counter-side we appear to have people who can code but are
unable to communicate productively otherwise.

surely there must be _some_ merit to creating a list of lower level
development tasks (as dictated by those with experience to judge) to
encourage people to enter the development cycle.  of course, there
will be a large attrition rate, most people like the idea but can't
stick the learning curve.  others may be intelligent and able but less
confident and just need pointed in the right direction.

obviously the intention should be to try and capture the latter without
loosing energy on the former.

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: OpenBSD kernel janitors

Nick Guenther
In reply to this post by beck-7
On 10/31/07, Bob Beck <[hidden email]> wrote:

> * Nick Guenther <[hidden email]> [2007-10-31 08:40]:
> > On 10/31/07, Theo de Raadt <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > > > Obviously patches will be subject to peer review. Even if a patch isn't
> > > > approved, the coder should have learned something new and useful.
> > >
> > > Yeah, right.
> >
>
> > Or will the patches not be subject to peer review? Or are
> > you worried at who would pass for peer review getting overwhelmed by a
> > huge volume of poor quality patches?
>
>         Yes, and yes.
>
>         Basically look, when it comes to the kernel there are two
> types of student, the self taught, and the hopeless. While we
> will more than be willing to help people who take the initiative themselves
> to look for something and work on it. This takes a significant amount
> of our time and energy. A lot of it actually.  Yes, learning the kernel
> and how the basics work is a barrier to entry. It needs to be so, people
> without the motivation to get over that hump on their own will simply
> sap too much time from the people who have otherwise.
>
>         Basically I'm telling you, if you want to play in this area, you need
> to earn your stripes. *earn* - not have shown to you. Sorry if that
> sounds elitist, but that's the simple fact. Already overworked senior
> developers do not have time to spoon feed people who already
> demonstrate that they will not take the initiative to learn things on
> their own. Sorry, that's just the facts guys.

Thanks. *that's* clear. It's good to be elitist about code quality,
that's what attracts me to OpenBSD. I just didn't see the connection
right away.
Sorry for wasting your time but thanks for shining a light upon how it works.

-Nick

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: OpenBSD kernel janitors

ttw+bsd-2
In reply to this post by Theo de Raadt
On 31.10-08:40, Theo de Raadt wrote:
[ ... ]
> > Yeah, right.
[ ... ]
> I don't understand. Is newbies learning new things a waste to you? Do
> you think they won't really learn anything unless the patch is
> approved? Or will the patches not be subject to peer review? Or are
> you worried at who would pass for peer review getting overwhelmed by a
> huge volume of poor quality patches?

and i would suggest that the severe and prevelant attitude toward the
possibilty of poor patches or under-educated actions is the most
significant barrier to encouraging new/young developers.

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: OpenBSD kernel janitors

Nick Guenther
On 10/31/07, [hidden email] <[hidden email]> wrote:
> On 31.10-08:40, Theo de Raadt wrote:
> [ ... ]
> >       > Yeah, right.
> [ ... ]
>
> and i would suggest that the severe and prevelant attitude toward the
> possibilty of poor patches or under-educated actions is the most
> significant barrier to encouraging new/young developers.

Well that's the point of it; or at least, a useful side-effect.
Linux can get away with sending fanboi masses at its code because it's
fine with fanboi masses poking at all parts of the kernel, no matter
how secure it may be. Right?

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: OpenBSD kernel janitors

Theo de Raadt
In reply to this post by Karel Kulhavy
>On 31.10-08:40, Theo de Raadt wrote:
>[ ... ]
>> > Yeah, right.
>[ ... ]
>> I don't understand. Is newbies learning new things a waste to you? Do
>> you think they won't really learn anything unless the patch is
>> approved? Or will the patches not be subject to peer review? Or are
>> you worried at who would pass for peer review getting overwhelmed by a
>> huge volume of poor quality patches?
>
>and i would suggest that the severe and prevelant attitude toward the
>possibilty of poor patches or under-educated actions is the most
>significant barrier to encouraging new/young developers.

Yes, it is a significant problem that we won't hand-hold whiners who
could by now be digging for things to fix.  There are hundreds of ways
to self-motivate, but instead we get whine whine whine.

We've got a PR database with bugs in it, and we NEVER get fixes from
outsiders.  That's not news to anyone, if they actually wanted to do
more than whine whine whine.

Hey, don't blame us if many of you guys are lazy whiners.

STOP telling us that we need to do more than we already do.

If you want to be more involved, _you've_ got to step up to the plate.

But please, first cut the whining.  It's just childish.

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: OpenBSD kernel janitors

Theo de Raadt
In reply to this post by Karel Kulhavy
>On 31.10-08:20, Theo de Raadt wrote:
>[ ... ]
>> They don't need a list.  They could already have started coding.  Yet
>> we see how few people actually do start coding.  Instead, they choose
>> to write in english...
>
>on the counter-side we appear to have people who can code but are
>unable to communicate productively otherwise.
>
>surely there must be _some_ merit to creating a list of lower level
>development tasks (as dictated by those with experience to judge) to
>encourage people to enter the development cycle.  of course, there
>will be a large attrition rate, most people like the idea but can't
>stick the learning curve.  others may be intelligent and able but less
>confident and just need pointed in the right direction.
>
>obviously the intention should be to try and capture the latter without
>loosing energy on the former.

Lists have been made before, by a few developers.

It did not work then, and it won't work now.

Development is not the same process as writing a whiny mail.

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: OpenBSD kernel janitors

Michael Shalayeff-2
In reply to this post by ttw+bsd-2
On Wed, Oct 31, 2007 at 03:01:03PM +0000, [hidden email] wrote:
> On 31.10-08:20, Theo de Raadt wrote:
> [ ... ]
> > They don't need a list.  They could already have started coding.  Yet
> > we see how few people actually do start coding.  Instead, they choose
> > to write in english...
>
> on the counter-side we appear to have people who can code but are
> unable to communicate productively otherwise.

as opposed to a majority of people who talk and not code anything?
here is a solution for you -- read http://openbsd.org/query-pr.html
and start fixing those. pretty simple solution if you get no bugs
of your own.
cu
--
    paranoic mickey       (my employers have changed but, the name has remained)

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: OpenBSD kernel janitors

beck-7
In reply to this post by ttw+bsd-2
> and i would suggest that the severe and prevelant attitude toward the
> possibilty of poor patches or under-educated actions is the most
> significant barrier to encouraging new/young developers.
>

        No, the severe and prevelent attitude toward the possiblilty of poor
patches or under-educated actions is what makes OpenBSD the most
secure operating system on the planet. It's not perfect but it works.
It is a high stress environment to work in, and guess what, you have
to be prepared to have your work criticized, often brutally. It often
makes the people who must do that criticism look callous, and heck, it's
not fun to do.. This is why we'd prefer people get up to speed on their
own so we have to do it less. Do you think people like having to tell
people their work sucks? Now of course your work would never suck, but
get real, look at 99% of the software you see out there. People's work
*usually* sucks, and none of us are immune from that.

        Our experience has been that people who can't learn how
stuff works and find an area they are *passionate* about to work in
do not survive the necessary scrutiny to get completed work done
in that environment. They give up because it's too hard.

        So please stop wasting our time, unless you wish to prove us
wrong - which will merely prove us right and gain us another developer
if you manage it.

        -Bob

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: OpenBSD kernel janitors

ttw+bsd-2
In reply to this post by Nick Guenther
On 31.10-11:12, Nick Guenther wrote:
[ ... ]
> > and i would suggest that the severe and prevelant attitude toward the
> > possibilty of poor patches or under-educated actions is the most
> > significant barrier to encouraging new/young developers.
>
> Well that's the point of it; or at least, a useful side-effect.
> Linux can get away with sending fanboi masses at its code because it's
> fine with fanboi masses poking at all parts of the kernel, no matter
> how secure it may be. Right?

i think we'll simply agree to disagree.  i personally find it quite
disheartening to hear the attitude that prevails here but that's the
community's decision.  it certainaly seems to refelect the attitute
of it's leaders (developers).

--
        t
 t
                 w

1234