OpenBSD funding status

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OpenBSD funding status

Desktop User OpenBSD
Hello,

I would love to subscribe to the monthly donation on:

http://openbsdfoundation.org/donations.html

but I need to ask, say a few things before:

1) The
https://openbsdfoundation.org/donations.html
is redirecting to http://www.obtuse.com/
why? HTTPS should work properly or it shouldn't be there.

2) What is the status of the funding? The CAD$(?) 20,000?

3) Are there any subscriptions too or there are only one-time donations?

4) Could Theo or anyone from the OpenBSD team contact any vendors, or has
the project any bigger subscription donator already?

5) If something would happen to Theo (which __I don't want or wish__), who
would be the project leader? Son or daughter? Or any lead developers? Are
there any plans for this?
In the book: Absolute OpenBSD (2nd) which came out at April of 2013 says
only one sentence about this:
"Theo takes whatever actions necessary to keep the OpenBSD Project running
smoothly. If something should ever happen to Theo, the project does have
plans for replacing him."
So is this true? (just asking, you understand: I know this is not a one man
project, but are there any people around taking the responsibility to say
they can be the project leader of the worlds most secure OS?)

6) "off:" If OpenSSH is deployed widely in the world, wouldn't it be nice
to put the donation URL in it? (man page or after install)

@Theo: Thanks for __everything__ & keep up the good work!
@Anyone who donated: Thanks for every $!

Have a nice day!

MJ
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Re: OpenBSD funding status

MJ
On 18 Jan 2014, at 20.01, Desktop User OpenBSD <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hello,
>
> I would love to subscribe to the monthly donation on:
>
> http://openbsdfoundation.org/donations.html
>
> but I need to ask, say a few things before:
>
> 1) The
> https://openbsdfoundation.org/donations.html
> is redirecting to http://www.obtuse.com/
> why? HTTPS should work properly or it shouldn't be there.

Word.

> 2) What is the status of the funding? The CAD$(?) 20,000?

Word again. Open with the code doesn’t mean black box with the money.

> 3) Are there any subscriptions too or there are only one-time donations?
>

I would do a subscription if it were possible, but the amount has to be entirely of my own choosing. Paypal certainly does offer recurring payments, so there is no reason not to offer them to people willing to support the project.

> 4) Could Theo or anyone from the OpenBSD team contact any vendors, or has
> the project any bigger subscription donator already?
>

Again, and I really need to highlight this: when the project comes to the position that it is asking for money or die, then the project is also in a requirement to provide financial transparency. If money is the question, then a mailing list isn’t the answer - this is 2014 and most of the world couldn’t give a flying shit about email anymore (and if I can additionally stick in a side comment regarding antiquity, then give up the FTP already - it’s a dinosaur, it’s unnecessarily complex, and it serves no specific purpose when HTTP is available.)


> 5) If something would happen to Theo (which __I don't want or wish__), who
> would be the project leader? Son or daughter? Or any lead developers? Are
> there any plans for this?
> In the book: Absolute OpenBSD (2nd) which came out at April of 2013 says
> only one sentence about this:
> "Theo takes whatever actions necessary to keep the OpenBSD Project running
> smoothly. If something should ever happen to Theo, the project does have
> plans for replacing him.”

Maybe Michael knows something that we don’t as the result of an evening full of beers together with the core team. According to Wikipedia, Theo is only a year and a half younger than me, so he’s still got at least 30 years in front of him barring accidental death or an incurable tumor. Corporate attitude likes to propagate the attitude that none of us are indispensable, but the fact is that unless you are a java coder and by default travelling down the Ho Chi Min trail then you are also indispensable. Friends don’t let friends code Java. Period.


> 6) "off:" If OpenSSH is deployed widely in the world, wouldn't it be nice
> to put the donation URL in it? (man page or after install)


That’s great if what you are after is peanuts from people  like me. People with serious money waiting for a purpose don’t read man pages, with the possible exception of Mark Shuttleworth, and he shouldn’t need to be prodded to throw some money in this direction - but again, I simply can not overemphasise the importance of my response to point 4 above. Isn’t Mark running a Canadian company? Even if the OS he’s promoting is directly competing, he is standing on the shoulders of at least one giant - Theo.


-mike

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Re: OpenBSD funding status

Martin Brandenburg
MJ <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Again, and I really need to highlight this: when the project comes to the \
> position that it is asking for money or die, then the project is also in a \
> requirement to provide financial transparency.

I don't understand this attitude. It is their project, and they can ask
for money however they want to. Likewise, it is your money, and you can
decide who and for what you want to give it to.

$20,000 is reasonable for their electricity cost, and there is no doubt
that Theo and the others have produced an OS worth far far far more than
$20,000.

Count your machines, multiply by X >= $50, and donate that. The list price
for Windows Server starts at $501. And which would you rather run?

> If money is the question, \
> then a mailing list isn’t the answer - this is 2014 and most of the world \
> couldn’t give a flying shit about email anymore

What does this even mean? "Most of the world" still needs to communicate.

> (and if I can \
> additionally stick in a side comment regarding antiquity, then give up the \
> FTP already - it’s a dinosaur, it’s unnecessarily complex, and it \
> serves no specific purpose when HTTP is available.)

So you're asking them to spend time unconfiguring FTP? It costs very
little to leave an FTP server running. FTP is old and creaky, but
there's no need to disable working software just to appear hip. I'm sure
the developers can figure out when and if FTP begins to use too many
resources or be too large a configuration burden. Until then, no need to
disrupt what works.

- Martin

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Re: OpenBSD funding status

Eric Furman-3
In reply to this post by MJ
On Sat, Jan 18, 2014, at 06:23 PM, MJ wrote:
(a lot of garbage snipped)

> additionally stick in a side comment regarding antiquity, then give up
> the FTP already - it’s a dinosaur, it’s unnecessarily complex, and it
> serves no specific purpose when HTTP is available.)

BWHAHAHAH!
This was really funny. Thank you, you made my day.

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Re: OpenBSD funding status

patrick keshishian
On 1/18/14, Eric Furman <[hidden email]> wrote:
> On Sat, Jan 18, 2014, at 06:23 PM, MJ wrote:
> (a lot of garbage snipped)
>
>> additionally stick in a side comment regarding antiquity, then give up
>> the FTP already - it’s a dinosaur, it’s unnecessarily complex, and it
>> serves no specific purpose when HTTP is available.)
>
> BWHAHAHAH!
> This was really funny. Thank you, you made my day.

hashtagFTPemulationOverHTTP
hashtagEmailSo80s

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Re: OpenBSD funding status

LeviaComm Networks NOC
In reply to this post by MJ
MJ wrote:

> On 18 Jan 2014, at 20.01, Desktop User OpenBSD <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> Hello,
>>
>> I would love to subscribe to the monthly donation on:
>>
>> http://openbsdfoundation.org/donations.html
>>
>> but I need to ask, say a few things before:
>>
>> 1) The
>> https://openbsdfoundation.org/donations.html
>> is redirecting to http://www.obtuse.com/
>> why? HTTPS should work properly or it shouldn't be there.
>
> Word.

Rather than contributing just some outdated sang, you could have done
something useful, like helping to troubleshoot why the redirect was
happening.

Speaking of, both sites reside on the same IP, so its probably that the
browser being used or a proxy in between doesn't play nicely with
virtual hosts and tries to connect by raw IP and that obtuse.com comes
first in httpd.conf for that IP address.

>
>> 2) What is the status of the funding? The CAD$(?) 20,000?
>
>> 3) Are there any subscriptions too or there are only one-time donations?
>>
>
> I would do a subscription if it were possible, but the amount has to be
> entirely of my own choosing. Paypal certainly does offer recurring
> payments, so there is no reason not to offer them to people willing
> to support the project.
>

There *is* the possibility of recurring donations (either the first
result of doing an internet search for 'OpenBSD recurring donations' or
just following the link in the email you replied to, just after the
sender asks about why it wasn't working for them.

>> 4) Could Theo or anyone from the OpenBSD team contact any vendors, or has
>> the project any bigger subscription donator already?
>>
>
> Again, and I really need to highlight this: when the project
> comes to the position that it is asking for money or die, then
> the project is also in a requirement to provide financial
> transparency.

Why do we need transparency?  Is that so you can nit-pick every expense?
And requirement by whom exactly?  Because last I checked, Theo doesn't
report to you, nor does anyone else around here.

> If money is the question, then a mailing list  isn’t the answer
> - this is 2014 and most of the world couldn’t  give a flying shit
 > about email anymore

Pray tell us, what people are these that you are talking about?
Although I suspect that by 'people' you mean 'me'.

> (and if I can additionallystick in a side comment regarding
 > antiquity, then give up the FTP already - it’s a dinosaur,
> it’s unnecessarily complex,  and it serves no specific purpose when
 > HTTP is available.)

No, http is the dinosaur, what with the relatively huge overhead it
requires compared to ftp for file transfers, do you want to make us
use more power?  It isn't even complex, at least not for someone who
can read

>> 5) If something would happen to Theo (which __I don't want or wish__), who
>> would be the project leader? Son or daughter? Or any lead developers? Are
>> there any plans for this?
>> In the book: Absolute OpenBSD (2nd) which came out at April of 2013 says
>> only one sentence about this:
>> "Theo takes whatever actions necessary to keep the OpenBSD Project running
>> smoothly. If something should ever happen to Theo, the project does have
>> plans for replacing him.”
>
> Maybe Michael knows something that we don’t as the result of an evening
> full of beers together with the core team. According to Wikipedia, Theo
> is only a year and a half younger than me, so he’s still got at least
> 30 years in front of him barring accidental death or an incurable tumor.

Or maybe one of these days he gets tired of idiots and leaves the
project?

> Corporate attitude likes to propagate the attitude that none of us are
> indispensable, but the fact is that unless you are a java coder and by
> default travelling down the Ho Chi Min trail then you are also
> indispensable. Friends don’t let friends code Java. Period.
>

You keep using the word 'indespensible', I don't think it means what you
think it means...

Remove the double negatives and you'll see why that sentence doesn't
make a lick of sense.  Also, are you seriously comparing writing Java to
a reprehensible series of war-crimes?  I may be a sociopath(your word,
not mine) but even I know that is something you don't do.

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Re: OpenBSD funding status

Desktop User OpenBSD
Hi,








*1) Thehttps://openbsdfoundation.org/donations.html
<https://openbsdfoundation.org/donations.html>is redirecting to
http://www.obtuse.com/ <http://www.obtuse.com/>why? HTTPS should work
properly or it shouldn't be there.Word.Rather than contributing just some
outdated sang, you could have donesomething useful, like helping to
troubleshoot why the redirect was
happening.------------------------------------*

umm, the user gets a page where it can click to reach obtuse.com

Word. -> ? let me get access to the server running
openbsdfoundation.orgvia SSH and I will do it:
    - generate a new SSL cert (the current one expired at 2009) and use
https://www.startssl.com/ to get it working without wrong SSL warning
(freely) in the webbrowsers
    - configure apache

###########################################




*3) Are there any subscriptions too or there are only one-time donations?I
would do a subscription if it were possible, but the amount has to be
entirely of my own choosing. Paypal certainly does offer recurring
payments, so there is no reason not to offer them to people willing to
support the project.------------------------------------*
with this, I meant the status of it, it's great to have subscribtion too,
we all know that, but what is the ratio between them? just a little info
about the currect status, is it hopeless or already passed the $20000?

update: whops, I didn't read the previous mails, Theo already said this: "I
am not going to disclose the actual numbers here." - well, hokay.. I belive
in causality (cause<->effect) so there is a reason why he isn't doing that.

So let's get some info:

Suppose if a donator is on the donations page one time, it will stay there
(? I am wrong or not?):

The firs mail about funding came at 2013-12-17 18:20:48 -
http://marc.info/?l=openbsd-misc&m=138730448307723

The second mail came at 2013-12-21 0:08:26 -
http://marc.info/?l=openbsd-misc&m=138758456722860&w=2

http://www.openbsd.org/cgi-bin/cvsweb/www/donations.html
-->>
    current: Sat Jan 18 16:37:37 2014 UTC
    old, before the mails: Thu Dec 12 18:03:28 2013 UTC

[user@localhost ~] grep '^</li><li>' old-Donations\ to\ OpenBSD.html >
old.txt
[user@localhost ~] grep '^</li><li>' current-Donations\ to\ OpenBSD.html >
current.txt
[user@localhost ~] wc -l old.txt
4779 old.txt
[user@localhost ~] wc -l current.txt
4773 current.txt
[user@localhost ~]

Hopefully there weren't just 6 people who donated, these are only the
people who wanted their names on the donations.html (?)

Just on ycombinator ( https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7069889 ) there
were 401 comments and 798 "ups" and 17 donated:

[user@localhost ~] lynx -source
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7069889| grep -i donated | wc -l
17
[user@localhost ~]

on nixcraft facebook page: ( https://www.facebook.com/nixcraft ) there were
209 "likes" and 307 shares, 1 person said in the comments "donated"

so we have (calculating with ex.: 20 CAD/person ) 6+17+1 = 24*20= 480 CAD
from the 20000 ? - this is only public and not "trusty" data. :)




On Sun, Jan 19, 2014 at 8:43 AM, Christopher Ahrens <[hidden email]>wrote:

> MJ wrote:
>
>> On 18 Jan 2014, at 20.01, Desktop User OpenBSD <
>> [hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>  Hello,
>>>
>>> I would love to subscribe to the monthly donation on:
>>>
>>> http://openbsdfoundation.org/donations.html
>>>
>>> but I need to ask, say a few things before:
>>>
>>> 1) The
>>> https://openbsdfoundation.org/donations.html
>>> is redirecting to http://www.obtuse.com/
>>> why? HTTPS should work properly or it shouldn't be there.
>>>
>>
>> Word.
>>
>
> Rather than contributing just some outdated sang, you could have done
> something useful, like helping to troubleshoot why the redirect was
> happening.
>
> Speaking of, both sites reside on the same IP, so its probably that the
> browser being used or a proxy in between doesn't play nicely with
> virtual hosts and tries to connect by raw IP and that obtuse.com comes
> first in httpd.conf for that IP address.
>
>
>>  2) What is the status of the funding? The CAD$(?) 20,000?
>>>
>>
>>  3) Are there any subscriptions too or there are only one-time donations?
>>>
>>>
>> I would do a subscription if it were possible, but the amount has to be
>> entirely of my own choosing. Paypal certainly does offer recurring
>> payments, so there is no reason not to offer them to people willing
>> to support the project.
>>
>>
> There *is* the possibility of recurring donations (either the first
> result of doing an internet search for 'OpenBSD recurring donations' or
> just following the link in the email you replied to, just after the
> sender asks about why it wasn't working for them.
>
>
>  4) Could Theo or anyone from the OpenBSD team contact any vendors, or has
>>> the project any bigger subscription donator already?
>>>
>>>
>> Again, and I really need to highlight this: when the project
>> comes to the position that it is asking for money or die, then
>> the project is also in a requirement to provide financial
>> transparency.
>>
>
> Why do we need transparency?  Is that so you can nit-pick every expense?
> And requirement by whom exactly?  Because last I checked, Theo doesn't
> report to you, nor does anyone else around here.
>
>
>  If money is the question, then a mailing list  isn’t the answer
>> - this is 2014 and most of the world couldn’t  give a flying shit
>>
> > about email anymore
>
> Pray tell us, what people are these that you are talking about?
> Although I suspect that by 'people' you mean 'me'.
>
>  (and if I can additionallystick in a side comment regarding
>>
> > antiquity, then give up the FTP already - it’s a dinosaur,
>
>> it’s unnecessarily complex,  and it serves no specific purpose when
>>
> > HTTP is available.)
>
> No, http is the dinosaur, what with the relatively huge overhead it
> requires compared to ftp for file transfers, do you want to make us
> use more power?  It isn't even complex, at least not for someone who
> can read
>
>
>  5) If something would happen to Theo (which __I don't want or wish__), who
>>> would be the project leader? Son or daughter? Or any lead developers? Are
>>> there any plans for this?
>>> In the book: Absolute OpenBSD (2nd) which came out at April of 2013 says
>>> only one sentence about this:
>>> "Theo takes whatever actions necessary to keep the OpenBSD Project
>>> running
>>> smoothly. If something should ever happen to Theo, the project does have
>>> plans for replacing him.”
>>>
>>
>> Maybe Michael knows something that we don’t as the result of an evening
>> full of beers together with the core team. According to Wikipedia, Theo
>> is only a year and a half younger than me, so he’s still got at least
>> 30 years in front of him barring accidental death or an incurable tumor.
>>
>
> Or maybe one of these days he gets tired of idiots and leaves the
> project?
>
>
>  Corporate attitude likes to propagate the attitude that none of us are
>> indispensable, but the fact is that unless you are a java coder and by
>> default travelling down the Ho Chi Min trail then you are also
>> indispensable. Friends don’t let friends code Java. Period.
>>
>>
> You keep using the word 'indespensible', I don't think it means what you
> think it means...
>
> Remove the double negatives and you'll see why that sentence doesn't
> make a lick of sense.  Also, are you seriously comparing writing Java to
> a reprehensible series of war-crimes?  I may be a sociopath(your word, not
> mine) but even I know that is something you don't do.

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Re: OpenBSD funding status

Dmitrij D. Czarkoff-2
In reply to this post by MJ
MJ said:
> Again, and I really need to highlight this: when the project comes to
> the position that it is asking for money or die, then the project is
> also in a requirement to provide financial transparency.

You appear to see no difference between donation and investment. OpenBSD
is asking for donations - financial support for things they already do
and are expected to do in future. They don't promise anything beyond the
stuff they normally deliver - sane Unix-like BSD-flavored operating
system, so there's quite enough of transparency: they did it for nearly
20 years and everyone may inspect the progress with per-commit
precision.

I would also note that it could possibly make sense for some corporate
sponsor to ask for some level of financial disclosure in case of some
big donation, but that's not the case here: the people who ask for it
are not the people who are going to donate anything. (Of course unless
you really believe that a person behind single-purpose account asking
trollish questions is really considering donating the money he doesn't
even quantify.)

--
Dmitrij D. Czarkoff