OpenBSD forked

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Re[2]: OpenBSD forked

Mo Libden
Sat, 16 Jun 2012 15:15:05 -0600 (MDT) от Theo de Raadt <[hidden email]>:
> They started the fork because they got kicked out because one
> developer (Marco) hired 5 other developers for his startup company,
> and attempted to hire around 10 other developers in a sneaky and
> underhanded way.  They were told, oh i forget they were "asked", to
> not tell anyone else in OpenBSD that this was happening, probably
> because people "including Theo" would be upset.

hah, it's like little kiddies: "don't tell mom we've eaten all the candies"
WTF people, couldn't it be handled without playing these games?

it's sad of course, dividing forces isn't nice, but then again what the hell,
it's life.

bright thing is - Theo keeps the development of the OS on the course
of evolutionary changes, so all is well in the world and god is in his heaven

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Re: OpenBSD forked

Kenneth R Westerback
In reply to this post by Otto Moerbeek
On Wed, Jun 20, 2012 at 09:16:24PM +0200, Otto Moerbeek wrote:

> On Wed, Jun 20, 2012 at 11:39:44AM -0500, John wrote:
>
> > On Wed, Jun 20, 2012 at 08:28:22AM +0530, Jay Patel wrote:
> > > Hi all users,
> > >
> > > I am users too.  Thanks cody. I am learning C too. from "C primus
> > > plus" any thoughts from devs. which we should read?
> >
> > You may want to give this a try:
> > http://c.learncodethehardway.org/book/learn-c-the-hard-way.html
> >
> >
> > John
>
> IMO tHe most valuable book is Kernighan & Ritchie "The C Programming
> Language".
>
> -Otto

+1

.... Ken

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Re: OpenBSD forked

Paul Irofti-4
On Thu, Jun 21, 2012 at 08:26:31AM -0400, Kenneth R Westerback wrote:

> On Wed, Jun 20, 2012 at 09:16:24PM +0200, Otto Moerbeek wrote:
> > On Wed, Jun 20, 2012 at 11:39:44AM -0500, John wrote:
> >
> > > On Wed, Jun 20, 2012 at 08:28:22AM +0530, Jay Patel wrote:
> > > > Hi all users,
> > > >
> > > > I am users too.  Thanks cody. I am learning C too. from "C primus
> > > > plus" any thoughts from devs. which we should read?
> > >
> > > You may want to give this a try:
> > > http://c.learncodethehardway.org/book/learn-c-the-hard-way.html
> > >
> > >
> > > John
> >
> > IMO tHe most valuable book is Kernighan & Ritchie "The C Programming
> > Language".
> >
> > -Otto
>
> +1

Pff... that's so 80's...
Cool kids these days want ``C in 21 days'' or some crap like that.

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Re: OpenBSD forked

Jan Stary
On Jun 21 16:35:16, Paul Irofti wrote:

> On Thu, Jun 21, 2012 at 08:26:31AM -0400, Kenneth R Westerback wrote:
> > On Wed, Jun 20, 2012 at 09:16:24PM +0200, Otto Moerbeek wrote:
> > > On Wed, Jun 20, 2012 at 11:39:44AM -0500, John wrote:
> > >
> > > > On Wed, Jun 20, 2012 at 08:28:22AM +0530, Jay Patel wrote:
> > > > > Hi all users,
> > > > >
> > > > > I am users too.  Thanks cody. I am learning C too. from "C primus
> > > > > plus" any thoughts from devs. which we should read?
> > > >
> > > > You may want to give this a try:
> > > > http://c.learncodethehardway.org/book/learn-c-the-hard-way.html
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > John
> > >
> > > IMO tHe most valuable book is Kernighan & Ritchie "The C Programming
> > > Language".
> > >
> > > -Otto
> >
> > +1
>
> Pff... that's so 80's...
> Cool kids these days want ``C in 21 days'' or some crap like that.

Learn C in 21 years!

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Re: OpenBSD forked

Brian Hechinger
On 6/21/2012 9:56 AM, Jan Stary wrote:

> On Jun 21 16:35:16, Paul Irofti wrote:
>> On Thu, Jun 21, 2012 at 08:26:31AM -0400, Kenneth R Westerback wrote:
>>> On Wed, Jun 20, 2012 at 09:16:24PM +0200, Otto Moerbeek wrote:
>>>> On Wed, Jun 20, 2012 at 11:39:44AM -0500, John wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, Jun 20, 2012 at 08:28:22AM +0530, Jay Patel wrote:
>>>>>> Hi all users,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I am users too.  Thanks cody. I am learning C too. from "C primus
>>>>>> plus" any thoughts from devs. which we should read?
>>>>> You may want to give this a try:
>>>>> http://c.learncodethehardway.org/book/learn-c-the-hard-way.html
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> John
>>>> IMO tHe most valuable book is Kernighan & Ritchie "The C Programming
>>>> Language".
>>>>
>>>> -Otto
>>> +1
>> Pff... that's so 80's...
>> Cool kids these days want ``C in 21 days'' or some crap like that.
> Learn C in 21 years!
>

Read APUE. If you can't program C after that you are broken.

That may just take 21 years though. :)

-brian

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Re: OpenBSD forked

Gilles Chehade-7
In reply to this post by Paul Irofti-4
On Thu, Jun 21, 2012 at 04:35:16PM +0300, Paul Irofti wrote:

> On Thu, Jun 21, 2012 at 08:26:31AM -0400, Kenneth R Westerback wrote:
> > On Wed, Jun 20, 2012 at 09:16:24PM +0200, Otto Moerbeek wrote:
> > > On Wed, Jun 20, 2012 at 11:39:44AM -0500, John wrote:
> > >
> > > > On Wed, Jun 20, 2012 at 08:28:22AM +0530, Jay Patel wrote:
> > > > > Hi all users,
> > > > >
> > > > > I am users too.  Thanks cody. I am learning C too. from "C primus
> > > > > plus" any thoughts from devs. which we should read?
> > > >
> > > > You may want to give this a try:
> > > > http://c.learncodethehardway.org/book/learn-c-the-hard-way.html
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > John
> > >
> > > IMO tHe most valuable book is Kernighan & Ritchie "The C Programming
> > > Language".
> > >
> > > -Otto
> >
> > +1
>
> Pff... that's so 80's...
> Cool kids these days want ``C in 21 days'' or some crap like that.
>

pfff...

C for dummies in two volumes is much much better !

--
Gilles Chehade

https://www.poolp.org | http://pool.ps                                @poolpOrg

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Re: OpenBSD forked

Jay Patel-7
In reply to this post by Dominguez, Roland
I am reading Primus C .. i started off with K & R ..lost my way in
some point so someone recommended start with Primus C>

Thanks all for help.

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Re: OpenBSD forked

Kurt Mosiejczuk
In reply to this post by Jan Stary
Jan Stary wrote:
> On Jun 21 16:35:16, Paul Irofti wrote:
>> On Thu, Jun 21, 2012 at 08:26:31AM -0400, Kenneth R Westerback wrote:
>>> On Wed, Jun 20, 2012 at 09:16:24PM +0200, Otto Moerbeek wrote:

>>>> IMO tHe most valuable book is Kernighan & Ritchie "The C Programming
>>>> Language".

>>>> -Otto
>>> +1
>> Pff... that's so 80's...
>> Cool kids these days want ``C in 21 days'' or some crap like that.

> Learn C in 21 years!

Give them K&R and put a subtitle on it: "Learn C or die".

That should make it eXtreme enough for the kiddies.

--Kurt

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Re: OpenBSD forked

Christiano F. Haesbaert
In reply to this post by Jay Patel-7
Tedu's suggestion is the best one in my IMHO, implement a webserver.

I would try to do the following:
- Read K&R
- Join ##c on freenode, they can help a *lot*.
- Read manpages of every function.
- Code small UNIX utilities, start with cat, then wc.
- Code something like a webserver, this is where you'll actually learn.

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Re: OpenBSD forked

Otto Moerbeek
In reply to this post by Jay Patel-7
On Thu, Jun 21, 2012 at 08:00:58PM +0530, Jay Patel wrote:

> I am reading Primus C .. i started off with K & R ..lost my way in
> some point so someone recommended start with Primus C>
>
> Thanks all for help.

Yes, K&R requires study, but it's worth it.  Be sure to return to K&R
at some point in time.

        -Otto

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Re: OpenBSD forked

Gilles Chehade-7
In reply to this post by Christiano F. Haesbaert
On Thu, Jun 21, 2012 at 12:09:47PM -0300, Christiano F. Haesbaert wrote:
> Tedu's suggestion is the best one in my IMHO, implement a webserver.
>
> I would try to do the following:
> - Read K&R
> - Join ##c on freenode, they can help a *lot*.
> - Read manpages of every function.
> - Code small UNIX utilities, start with cat, then wc.
> - Code something like a webserver, this is where you'll actually learn.
>

Actually, before a webserver, I'd recommend learning how to write a shell
as it will have you deal with lots of concepts you would not see
otherwise ... then network programming :-p


--
Gilles Chehade

calomel.org, do us all a favor => https://poolp.org/calomel

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Re: OpenBSD forked

Christiano F. Haesbaert
On 21 June 2012 12:22, Gilles Chehade <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Thu, Jun 21, 2012 at 12:09:47PM -0300, Christiano F. Haesbaert wrote:
>> Tedu's suggestion is the best one in my IMHO, implement a webserver.
>>
>> I would try to do the following:
>> - Read K&R
>> - Join ##c on freenode, they can help a *lot*.
>> - Read manpages of every function.
>> - Code small UNIX utilities, start with cat, then wc.
>> - Code something like a webserver, this is where you'll actually learn.
>>
>
> Actually, before a webserver, I'd recommend learning how to write a shell
> as it will have you deal with lots of concepts you would not see
> otherwise ... then network programming :-p
>

Yep shell is a good example.

One small task I used to pass to people wanting to learn C, is to
implement a strtok-like function, they could design their own API.
It is interesting because they need to deal with pointers, strings,
and design an API as in:

- should I pass a fixed array and alloc all tokens ?
- should I return an alloced "structure" ?
- should I modify the string in place as strtok ? should I copy.

A lot of decisions have to be made, and it's interesting to see how
they approach it.

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Re: OpenBSD forked

Darrin Chandler
In reply to this post by Otto Moerbeek
On Thu, Jun 21, 2012 at 05:12:22PM +0200, Otto Moerbeek wrote:
> On Thu, Jun 21, 2012 at 08:00:58PM +0530, Jay Patel wrote:
>
> > I am reading Primus C .. i started off with K & R ..lost my way in
> > some point so someone recommended start with Primus C>
> >
> > Thanks all for help.
>
> Yes, K&R requires study, but it's worth it.  Be sure to return to K&R
> at some point in time.

I've seen a lot that someone reads K&R and then says they still don't
know C. Every time I question further, it turns out that they treated
K&R the same as an 800 page "Learn X in 21 days" book, and that for sure
doesn't work with K&R.

K&R is a small book with a lot of information. It shouldn't just be read
quickly. You *must* understand what's written, otherwise you must stop
and think and then re-read until you do understand. Only then move on.
You must also at least attempt some of the exercises at the end of each
section.

Stopping to think, re-reading, doing exercises... all this is a lot of
work. But it *is* a short book, so you can make good progress and have
the end in sight. It's worth it, not only for learning C itself but also
for some of the little lessons contained in the text and exercises. So
you will learn some wisdom about programming in general.

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Re: OpenBSD forked

llemikebyw@aol.com
In reply to this post by Gilles Chehade-7
Would it be right to say that the "OpenBSD forked?" discussion has been
forked into a discussion about the best way to learn C?

In my experience - the following ways are the best to learn:

1) Get a basic understanding of how a program is structured,
how to interface with other programs and the user,
and how the compilation and linker tools work.

2) Have an idea for a program you want to write.

The rest is based on your determination.

Mike



On 21/06/12 15:11, Gilles Chehade wrote:

> On Thu, Jun 21, 2012 at 04:35:16PM +0300, Paul Irofti wrote:
>> On Thu, Jun 21, 2012 at 08:26:31AM -0400, Kenneth R Westerback wrote:
>>> On Wed, Jun 20, 2012 at 09:16:24PM +0200, Otto Moerbeek wrote:
>>>> On Wed, Jun 20, 2012 at 11:39:44AM -0500, John wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, Jun 20, 2012 at 08:28:22AM +0530, Jay Patel wrote:
>>>>>> Hi all users,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I am users too.  Thanks cody. I am learning C too. from "C primus
>>>>>> plus" any thoughts from devs. which we should read?
>>>>> You may want to give this a try:
>>>>> http://c.learncodethehardway.org/book/learn-c-the-hard-way.html
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> John
>>>> IMO tHe most valuable book is Kernighan & Ritchie "The C Programming
>>>> Language".
>>>>
>>>> -Otto
>>> +1
>> Pff... that's so 80's...
>> Cool kids these days want ``C in 21 days'' or some crap like that.
>>
> pfff...
>
> C for dummies in two volumes is much much better !

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Re: OpenBSD forked

Matthew Dempsky-3
In reply to this post by Nico Kadel-Garcia-2
On Wed, Jun 20, 2012 at 7:42 PM, Nico Kadel-Garcia <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Coming back and checking the thread, allow me to start laughing
> *REALLY HARD* at this, since I've seen no other comments on it. The
> ability to lock your hardware with libc and glibc errors is only
> exceeded by the kernel itself, and maintaining compilers to take
> advantage of new libc features is...... well, it's a lot of work too.
> And keeping it compatible with the various other GPL or open source
> tools that are commonly used in the real world? Really, really good
> luck with those!!!!

I'm confused.  The direction Bitrig is taking their toolchain is
roughly the same that a lot of OpenBSD developers would like to go
too, just Bitrig is explicitly not concerned about less common
architectures which makes their job way easier.

I do hope they succeed on that matter at least.  If they can't even
get amd64/i386/arm working with LLVM, then it's a rough road ahead for
us when we also have to worry about sparc, sh, mips, hppa, vax, and
m88k too.

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Re: OpenBSD forked

Miod Vallat
> I do hope they succeed on that matter at least.  If they can't even
> get amd64/i386/arm working with LLVM, then it's a rough road ahead for
> us when we also have to worry about sparc, sh, mips, hppa, vax, and
> m88k too.

There's always the possibility to split OpenBSD, `outsourcing' the
platforms which do not matter except to crazy nutcases to `RusticBSD'.

Miod

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Re: OpenBSD forked

Bryan Irvine
On Thu, Jun 21, 2012 at 12:30 PM, Miod Vallat <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> I do hope they succeed on that matter at least.  If they can't even
>> get amd64/i386/arm working with LLVM, then it's a rough road ahead for
>> us when we also have to worry about sparc, sh, mips, hppa, vax, and
>> m88k too.
>
> There's always the possibility to split OpenBSD, `outsourcing' the
> platforms which do not matter except to crazy nutcases to `RusticBSD'.


I still have high hopes for jigglypuffbsd.

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Re: OpenBSD forked

Otto Moerbeek
In reply to this post by Miod Vallat
On Thu, Jun 21, 2012 at 07:30:59PM +0000, Miod Vallat wrote:

> > I do hope they succeed on that matter at least.  If they can't even
> > get amd64/i386/arm working with LLVM, then it's a rough road ahead for
> > us when we also have to worry about sparc, sh, mips, hppa, vax, and
> > m88k too.
>
> There's always the possibility to split OpenBSD, `outsourcing' the
> platforms which do not matter except to crazy nutcases to `RusticBSD'.
>
> Miod

I prefer xvsopBSD

        -Otto

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Re: OpenBSD forked

Janne Johansson-3
In reply to this post by Miod Vallat
2012/6/21 Miod Vallat <[hidden email]>:
> There's always the possibility to split OpenBSD, `outsourcing' the
> platforms which do not matter except to crazy nutcases to `RusticBSD'.

Oh, perhaps resurrect amiga-m68k on RusticBSD then. =)

--
 To our sweethearts and wives.  May they never meet. -- 19th century toast

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Re: OpenBSD forked

Marc Espie-2
In reply to this post by Gilles Chehade-7
On Thu, Jun 21, 2012 at 05:22:08PM +0200, Gilles Chehade wrote:

> On Thu, Jun 21, 2012 at 12:09:47PM -0300, Christiano F. Haesbaert wrote:
> > Tedu's suggestion is the best one in my IMHO, implement a webserver.
> >
> > I would try to do the following:
> > - Read K&R
> > - Join ##c on freenode, they can help a *lot*.
> > - Read manpages of every function.
> > - Code small UNIX utilities, start with cat, then wc.
> > - Code something like a webserver, this is where you'll actually learn.
> >
>
> Actually, before a webserver, I'd recommend learning how to write a shell
> as it will have you deal with lots of concepts you would not see
> otherwise ... then network programming :-p

Just because you suffered thru a fucked-up education that's
ass-backwards doesn't mean you should wish it on other people.
('may you live in interesting times', the old chinese curse).

A shell is one of the most complicated pieces of C code to get right,
between the fucked-up parser, the lazy evaluation, the arcane shit you
have to do to various file descriptors, and the signal handling.

Among other things.

Heck, write your own kernel, it's simpler ;)

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