OpenBSD forked

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Re: OpenBSD forked

Eric Furman-3
NO. GPL IS COUNTER-PRODUCTIVE TO TRUE FREE SOFTWARE.
YES, I KNOW I AM SHOUTING. PLEASE EDUCATE YOURSELF
ABOUT THE PERVERTED GOALS OF THE FSF.

On Mon, Jun 18, 2012, at 02:55 PM, Indunil Jayasooriya wrote:

> > Their work getting rid of GNU stuff will, inevitably, affect OpenBSD (if
> > they succeed at that anyway).
> >
>
>      Hmm, I personally prefer BSD Style licence. For me, BSD Philosophy
>      has
> much more freedom. NOT Copyleft. ( I love it very much ) I'd like to see
> more BSD style stuffs coming in.
>
> anyway GPL is also doing a good job in the world of Open Source.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> Thank you
> Indunil Jayasooriya

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Re: OpenBSD forked

Peter Laufenberg
speaking of stuck CAPSLOCK, anyone else having DEL/INS problems on US keyboards w/ Euro key on 5? They're cheapo USB Dell manufactured by Logitech. Tweaking wscons flags didn't help (not running X11); should I remap keys individually?

-- p

>NO. GPL IS COUNTER-PRODUCTIVE TO TRUE FREE SOFTWARE.
>YES, I KNOW I AM SHOUTING. PLEASE EDUCATE YOURSELF
>ABOUT THE PERVERTED GOALS OF THE FSF.
>
>On Mon, Jun 18, 2012, at 02:55 PM, Indunil Jayasooriya wrote:
>> > Their work getting rid of GNU stuff will, inevitably, affect OpenBSD (if
>> > they succeed at that anyway).
>> >
>>
>>      Hmm, I personally prefer BSD Style licence. For me, BSD Philosophy
>>      has
>> much more freedom. NOT Copyleft. ( I love it very much ) I'd like to see
>> more BSD style stuffs coming in.
>>
>> anyway GPL is also doing a good job in the world of Open Source.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Thank you
>> Indunil Jayasooriya

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Re: OpenBSD forked

Peter Laufenberg
geez, it's a /segway/

-- p

>Dont steal the thread.
>On Jun 18, 2012 9:55 AM, "Peter Laufenberg" <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> speaking of stuck CAPSLOCK, anyone else having DEL/INS problems on US
>> keyboards w/ Euro key on 5? They're cheapo USB Dell manufactured by
>> Logitech. Tweaking wscons flags didn't help (not running X11); should I
>> remap keys individually?
>>
>> -- p
>>
>> >NO. GPL IS COUNTER-PRODUCTIVE TO TRUE FREE SOFTWARE.
>> >YES, I KNOW I AM SHOUTING. PLEASE EDUCATE YOURSELF
>> >ABOUT THE PERVERTED GOALS OF THE FSF.
>> >
>> >On Mon, Jun 18, 2012, at 02:55 PM, Indunil Jayasooriya wrote:
>> >> > Their work getting rid of GNU stuff will, inevitably, affect OpenBSD
>> (if
>> >> > they succeed at that anyway).
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >>      Hmm, I personally prefer BSD Style licence. For me, BSD Philosophy
>> >>      has
>> >> much more freedom. NOT Copyleft. ( I love it very much ) I'd like to see
>> >> more BSD style stuffs coming in.
>> >>
>> >> anyway GPL is also doing a good job in the world of Open Source.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> Thank you
>> >> Indunil Jayasooriya

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Re: OpenBSD forked

Ariane van der Steldt
In reply to this post by Theo de Raadt
On Mon, Jun 18, 2012 at 12:59:16AM -0600, Theo de Raadt wrote:
> Ariane wants to be involved as well, but is still waiting to
> see how others in the project feel.

I've changed from waiting to being involved.

And in Theo's interest in breaking secrecy: I've stepped down from
maintaining uvm.  Why?  Politics between me and Theo.  I'm unhappy
with how the situation of the fork was handled.  I've been collateral in
the whole matter twice and taken it in stride.  I've expressed interest
in the fork and am now suspect/tainted.  Third time's the charm.
Discussions between me and Theo now trigger anger with both of us,
which is not conducive to OpenBSD or our fellow developers.
I cannot commit to uvm under those circumstances.

Uvm is now without architect/lead, but that's fine since it has been
that for years.
--
Ariane

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Re: OpenBSD forked

Jay Patel-7
In reply to this post by Dominguez, Roland
“Each one has to find his peace from within. And peace to be real must
be unaffected by outside circumstances.”

M.K. Ghandhi. :D

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Re: OpenBSD forked

Theo de Raadt
In reply to this post by Ariane van der Steldt
> On Mon, Jun 18, 2012 at 12:59:16AM -0600, Theo de Raadt wrote:
> > Ariane wants to be involved as well, but is still waiting to
> > see how others in the project feel.
>
> I've changed from waiting to being involved.
>
> And in Theo's interest in breaking secrecy: I've stepped down from
> maintaining uvm.  Why?  Politics between me and Theo.

About 2 weeks ago ariane came to me privately to say this:

1) That 4 weeks ago she had become aware the fork did in fact exist,
   counter to previous assertions all the people now working on bitrig
   had gotten from their boss Marco.
2) Had _just_ now decided to mention it to me.
3) Also _just now_ had decided to on a desire to work on on both projects.
4) Want to know if this would be ok; if there would be consequences.

And finally:

5) For the last 4 weeks had been too busy to tell us, working 12 hour days.

I said I would not decide, but to ask all the developers.

However, instantly I recognized that the last part (5), about having
too busy to tell us, was not truthful.

The truth is, ariane did not tell us because of _fear_.  And I can
understand that, there are many people upset to various levels about
these happenings.  However, wrapping that up in a lie about having
been too busy is a not good.  Those 4 weeks were spent mulling over
whether to be part of that fork and how to tell us, not by being too
busy with work.

Therefore, ariane, I do not believe that you found out something so
politically big, sat on it for 4 weeks because of being too busy, and
then suddenly decide to disclose it and the desire to be part of it.

And that is not political.  I feel that I (and others in the project)
have been lied to in that part.

> I'm unhappy
> with how the situation of the fork was handled.

The situation of the fork was handled entirely by Marco Peereboom --
your boss.

> I've been collateral in
> the whole matter twice and taken it in stride.

Yes, we are all blameless.  Especially people at that company, who all
claim they got too busy to tell others that they were too busy.

> I've expressed interest
> in the fork and am now suspect/tainted.

Certainly you are:  You misled us.

> Third time's the charm.
> Discussions between me and Theo now trigger anger with both of us,
> which is not conducive to OpenBSD or our fellow developers.

I was not angry in my mail -- I was truthful and exact.

A diff was sent which adds a non-standard flag to mmap() to accelerate
realloc() performance.  For years the project has had an attitude that
adding extensions to standardized system calls should be a last
resort.  Rather than discuss this with developers, ariane went and
spent time, and then mailed in a diff -- asking only for an OK.  Not
requesting the start of a larger discussion, but only asking for an
OK.

In a reply to that diff, I

(1) explained my continued reluctance for such non-standard flags.

(2) I also explained that this was a poor time to put such changes
    into the tree with a coming hackathon, followed by the lock to our
    next release soon after.

(3) I also then explained that due to recent events (recently two,
    serious repairs had to be made to ariane's uvm changes without ariane
    being around), I am pessimistic about the commitment level for such
    big changes in the tree.  Normally a way around this is to test them
    as uncommited diffs in the snapshot builds, but I only do that for
    people who I totally trust (one reason is that mistakes can be quite
    costly, as I can damage 12 build environments in one go), and quite
    frankly, I do not trust Ariane nearly as much as before.

At that point, Ariane got seriously angry, and has now resigned.

> I cannot commit to uvm under those circumstances.

Unfortunate.

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Re: OpenBSD forked

cody chandler-2
Hello,


  I'm not a Developer, Maintainer or anything else.  Strictly a user.

1. Thank you to all the Developers who take time to make a product and
frankly give a dam about the work and quality of it.  ( Wish car makers did
the same! )

2.  Even though I am not a Developer or fully understand what is going on.
Taking time to send an email out of respect to a person or persons
generally cause less grief.  At least in my experience..  No matter how
hurtful the truth is.  Truth is truth and things can heal when all is
placed on the table.

3. If/When this Fork comes out I may give it a test run but all the points
each of you have made will make me rethink and read more before I do.

4. The short time I've been around.  Theo..  Thank you for being you!
Speaking your mind and keeping track.  I would ask if you are ex-military
but that does not matter.  You give a dam about a project that is your baby
and keep things in the right.  Strong opinionated but very fair and level
on your thoughts.

That's my cent of thoughts.  OBSD is my main OS and will continue to be!
Even when I want to shoot my self in the foot when I don't understand how
to do something at the 3rd time round reading the man page.  Taking C
classes now and at some point I hope to give back with more then monetary
donations instead of lurking.

Thank you
Cody

On Tue, Jun 19, 2012 at 12:51 PM, Theo de Raadt <[hidden email]>wrote:

> > On Mon, Jun 18, 2012 at 12:59:16AM -0600, Theo de Raadt wrote:
> > > Ariane wants to be involved as well, but is still waiting to
> > > see how others in the project feel.
> >
> > I've changed from waiting to being involved.
> >
> > And in Theo's interest in breaking secrecy: I've stepped down from
> > maintaining uvm.  Why?  Politics between me and Theo.
>
> About 2 weeks ago ariane came to me privately to say this:
>
> 1) That 4 weeks ago she had become aware the fork did in fact exist,
>   counter to previous assertions all the people now working on bitrig
>   had gotten from their boss Marco.
> 2) Had _just_ now decided to mention it to me.
> 3) Also _just now_ had decided to on a desire to work on on both projects.
> 4) Want to know if this would be ok; if there would be consequences.
>
> And finally:
>
> 5) For the last 4 weeks had been too busy to tell us, working 12 hour days.
>
> I said I would not decide, but to ask all the developers.
>
> However, instantly I recognized that the last part (5), about having
> too busy to tell us, was not truthful.
>
> The truth is, ariane did not tell us because of _fear_.  And I can
> understand that, there are many people upset to various levels about
> these happenings.  However, wrapping that up in a lie about having
> been too busy is a not good.  Those 4 weeks were spent mulling over
> whether to be part of that fork and how to tell us, not by being too
> busy with work.
>
> Therefore, ariane, I do not believe that you found out something so
> politically big, sat on it for 4 weeks because of being too busy, and
> then suddenly decide to disclose it and the desire to be part of it.
>
> And that is not political.  I feel that I (and others in the project)
> have been lied to in that part.
>
> > I'm unhappy
> > with how the situation of the fork was handled.
>
> The situation of the fork was handled entirely by Marco Peereboom --
> your boss.
>
> > I've been collateral in
> > the whole matter twice and taken it in stride.
>
> Yes, we are all blameless.  Especially people at that company, who all
> claim they got too busy to tell others that they were too busy.
>
> > I've expressed interest
> > in the fork and am now suspect/tainted.
>
> Certainly you are:  You misled us.
>
> > Third time's the charm.
> > Discussions between me and Theo now trigger anger with both of us,
> > which is not conducive to OpenBSD or our fellow developers.
>
> I was not angry in my mail -- I was truthful and exact.
>
> A diff was sent which adds a non-standard flag to mmap() to accelerate
> realloc() performance.  For years the project has had an attitude that
> adding extensions to standardized system calls should be a last
> resort.  Rather than discuss this with developers, ariane went and
> spent time, and then mailed in a diff -- asking only for an OK.  Not
> requesting the start of a larger discussion, but only asking for an
> OK.
>
> In a reply to that diff, I
>
> (1) explained my continued reluctance for such non-standard flags.
>
> (2) I also explained that this was a poor time to put such changes
>    into the tree with a coming hackathon, followed by the lock to our
>    next release soon after.
>
> (3) I also then explained that due to recent events (recently two,
>    serious repairs had to be made to ariane's uvm changes without ariane
>    being around), I am pessimistic about the commitment level for such
>    big changes in the tree.  Normally a way around this is to test them
>    as uncommited diffs in the snapshot builds, but I only do that for
>    people who I totally trust (one reason is that mistakes can be quite
>    costly, as I can damage 12 build environments in one go), and quite
>    frankly, I do not trust Ariane nearly as much as before.
>
> At that point, Ariane got seriously angry, and has now resigned.
>
> > I cannot commit to uvm under those circumstances.
>
> Unfortunate.

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Re: OpenBSD forked

Pablo Velasco Fernández
I agree with Cody. And I encourage all the OpenBSD developers. You are
doing a great work. Im triying to learn C by my self but its a bit
complicated hahaha. Greetings from Spain
El 19/06/2012 21:24, "cody chandler" <[hidden email]> escribió:

> Hello,
>
>
>  I'm not a Developer, Maintainer or anything else.  Strictly a user.
>
> 1. Thank you to all the Developers who take time to make a product and
> frankly give a dam about the work and quality of it.  ( Wish car makers did
> the same! )
>
> 2.  Even though I am not a Developer or fully understand what is going on.
> Taking time to send an email out of respect to a person or persons
> generally cause less grief.  At least in my experience..  No matter how
> hurtful the truth is.  Truth is truth and things can heal when all is
> placed on the table.
>
> 3. If/When this Fork comes out I may give it a test run but all the points
> each of you have made will make me rethink and read more before I do.
>
> 4. The short time I've been around.  Theo..  Thank you for being you!
> Speaking your mind and keeping track.  I would ask if you are ex-military
> but that does not matter.  You give a dam about a project that is your baby
> and keep things in the right.  Strong opinionated but very fair and level
> on your thoughts.
>
> That's my cent of thoughts.  OBSD is my main OS and will continue to be!
> Even when I want to shoot my self in the foot when I don't understand how
> to do something at the 3rd time round reading the man page.  Taking C
> classes now and at some point I hope to give back with more then monetary
> donations instead of lurking.
>
> Thank you
> Cody
>
> On Tue, Jun 19, 2012 at 12:51 PM, Theo de Raadt <[hidden email]
> >wrote:
>
> > > On Mon, Jun 18, 2012 at 12:59:16AM -0600, Theo de Raadt wrote:
> > > > Ariane wants to be involved as well, but is still waiting to
> > > > see how others in the project feel.
> > >
> > > I've changed from waiting to being involved.
> > >
> > > And in Theo's interest in breaking secrecy: I've stepped down from
> > > maintaining uvm.  Why?  Politics between me and Theo.
> >
> > About 2 weeks ago ariane came to me privately to say this:
> >
> > 1) That 4 weeks ago she had become aware the fork did in fact exist,
> >   counter to previous assertions all the people now working on bitrig
> >   had gotten from their boss Marco.
> > 2) Had _just_ now decided to mention it to me.
> > 3) Also _just now_ had decided to on a desire to work on on both
> projects.
> > 4) Want to know if this would be ok; if there would be consequences.
> >
> > And finally:
> >
> > 5) For the last 4 weeks had been too busy to tell us, working 12 hour
> days.
> >
> > I said I would not decide, but to ask all the developers.
> >
> > However, instantly I recognized that the last part (5), about having
> > too busy to tell us, was not truthful.
> >
> > The truth is, ariane did not tell us because of _fear_.  And I can
> > understand that, there are many people upset to various levels about
> > these happenings.  However, wrapping that up in a lie about having
> > been too busy is a not good.  Those 4 weeks were spent mulling over
> > whether to be part of that fork and how to tell us, not by being too
> > busy with work.
> >
> > Therefore, ariane, I do not believe that you found out something so
> > politically big, sat on it for 4 weeks because of being too busy, and
> > then suddenly decide to disclose it and the desire to be part of it.
> >
> > And that is not political.  I feel that I (and others in the project)
> > have been lied to in that part.
> >
> > > I'm unhappy
> > > with how the situation of the fork was handled.
> >
> > The situation of the fork was handled entirely by Marco Peereboom --
> > your boss.
> >
> > > I've been collateral in
> > > the whole matter twice and taken it in stride.
> >
> > Yes, we are all blameless.  Especially people at that company, who all
> > claim they got too busy to tell others that they were too busy.
> >
> > > I've expressed interest
> > > in the fork and am now suspect/tainted.
> >
> > Certainly you are:  You misled us.
> >
> > > Third time's the charm.
> > > Discussions between me and Theo now trigger anger with both of us,
> > > which is not conducive to OpenBSD or our fellow developers.
> >
> > I was not angry in my mail -- I was truthful and exact.
> >
> > A diff was sent which adds a non-standard flag to mmap() to accelerate
> > realloc() performance.  For years the project has had an attitude that
> > adding extensions to standardized system calls should be a last
> > resort.  Rather than discuss this with developers, ariane went and
> > spent time, and then mailed in a diff -- asking only for an OK.  Not
> > requesting the start of a larger discussion, but only asking for an
> > OK.
> >
> > In a reply to that diff, I
> >
> > (1) explained my continued reluctance for such non-standard flags.
> >
> > (2) I also explained that this was a poor time to put such changes
> >    into the tree with a coming hackathon, followed by the lock to our
> >    next release soon after.
> >
> > (3) I also then explained that due to recent events (recently two,
> >    serious repairs had to be made to ariane's uvm changes without ariane
> >    being around), I am pessimistic about the commitment level for such
> >    big changes in the tree.  Normally a way around this is to test them
> >    as uncommited diffs in the snapshot builds, but I only do that for
> >    people who I totally trust (one reason is that mistakes can be quite
> >    costly, as I can damage 12 build environments in one go), and quite
> >    frankly, I do not trust Ariane nearly as much as before.
> >
> > At that point, Ariane got seriously angry, and has now resigned.
> >
> > > I cannot commit to uvm under those circumstances.
> >
> > Unfortunate.

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Re: OpenBSD forked

Jay Patel-7
In reply to this post by Dominguez, Roland
Hi all users,

I am users too.  Thanks cody. I am learning C too. from "C primus
plus" any thoughts from devs. which we should read?

Thanks,

Jay.

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Re: OpenBSD forked

STeve Andre'
On 06/19/12 22:58, Jay Patel wrote:

> Hi all users,
>
> I am users too.  Thanks cody. I am learning C too. from "C primus
> plus" any thoughts from devs. which we should read?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Jay.
>
>
Well, http://openbsd.org/books.html  comes to mind.

But also start reading code.

An absurdly simple example is 'yes'.  Look at /usr/src/usr.bin/yes

This shows how stuff is built.  Look around the src tree.  Hint:
userland stuff is easier to understand so look there first, before
the kernel.

--STeve Andre'

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Re: OpenBSD forked

Ted Unangst-6
In reply to this post by Jay Patel-7
On Wed, Jun 20, 2012 at 08:28, Jay Patel wrote:
> Hi all users,
>
> I am users too.  Thanks cody. I am learning C too. from "C primus
> plus" any thoughts from devs. which we should read?

You will not truly learn C, or any language, until you *do* something
with it.  Project euler has some problems if you're into math.  If you
want to learn unix programming, build a tiny webserver (but never let
it see the real internet).  You will at least learn some basic socket
and file system and string parsing techniques.

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Re: OpenBSD forked

bofh-6
In reply to this post by Jay Patel-7
On Tue, Jun 19, 2012 at 10:58 PM, Jay Patel <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Hi all users,
>
> I am users too.  Thanks cody. I am learning C too. from "C primus
> plus" any thoughts from devs. which we should read?

Udacity.com had a good python class.  Intro, from zero background, to
writing a mini-google (crawler + indexer) in 7 weeks.  Apparently the
original form of duckduckgo (or another search engine) was written in
one page of python.

Walks you through concepts, and gives you exercise to do.  Good way to learn.


--
http://www.glumbert.com/media/shift
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tGvHNNOLnCk
"This officer's men seem to follow him merely out of idle curiosity."
-- Sandhurst officer cadet evaluation.
"Securing an environment of Windows platforms from abuse - external or
internal - is akin to trying to install sprinklers in a fireworks
factory where smoking on the job is permitted."  -- Gene Spafford
learn french:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=30v_g83VHK4

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Re: OpenBSD forked

Jay Patel-7
In reply to this post by Dominguez, Roland
Thanks Steve, Ted, bofh .. will take your advice and will start
reading code. Also doing something with it.

Thanks a lot.

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Re: OpenBSD forked

Peter Laufenberg-2
In reply to this post by bofh-6
>On Tue, Jun 19, 2012 at 10:58 PM, Jay Patel <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Hi all users,
>>
>> I am users too.  Thanks cody. I am learning C too. from "C primus
>> plus" any thoughts from devs. which we should read?
>
>Udacity.com had a good python class.  Intro, from zero background, to
>writing a mini-google (crawler + indexer) in 7 weeks.  Apparently the
>original form of duckduckgo (or another search engine) was written in
>one page of python.

WTF? Python must be the best way NOT to learn anything about C.

-- p

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Re: OpenBSD forked

Peter Laufenberg
In reply to this post by bofh-6
>On Tue, Jun 19, 2012 at 10:58 PM, Jay Patel <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Hi all users,
>>
>> I am users too.  Thanks cody. I am learning C too. from "C primus
>> plus" any thoughts from devs. which we should read?
>
>Udacity.com had a good python class.  Intro, from zero background, to
>writing a mini-google (crawler + indexer) in 7 weeks.  Apparently the
>original form of duckduckgo (or another search engine) was written in
>one page of python.

WTF? Python must be the best way NOT to learn anything about C.

-- p

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Re: OpenBSD forked

Franco Fichtner-2
In reply to this post by Peter Laufenberg-2
On Jun 20, 2012, at 4:53 PM, Peter Laufenberg wrote:

>> On Tue, Jun 19, 2012 at 10:58 PM, Jay Patel <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> Hi all users,
>>>
>>> I am users too.  Thanks cody. I am learning C too. from "C primus
>>> plus" any thoughts from devs. which we should read?
>>
>> Udacity.com had a good python class.  Intro, from zero background, to
>> writing a mini-google (crawler + indexer) in 7 weeks.  Apparently the
>> original form of duckduckgo (or another search engine) was written in
>> one page of python.
>
> WTF? Python must be the best way NOT to learn anything about C.

Haha, he probably meant Cython. :P

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Re: OpenBSD forked

John
In reply to this post by Jay Patel-7
On Wed, Jun 20, 2012 at 08:28:22AM +0530, Jay Patel wrote:
> Hi all users,
>
> I am users too.  Thanks cody. I am learning C too. from "C primus
> plus" any thoughts from devs. which we should read?

You may want to give this a try:
http://c.learncodethehardway.org/book/learn-c-the-hard-way.html


John

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Re: OpenBSD forked

Otto Moerbeek
On Wed, Jun 20, 2012 at 11:39:44AM -0500, John wrote:

> On Wed, Jun 20, 2012 at 08:28:22AM +0530, Jay Patel wrote:
> > Hi all users,
> >
> > I am users too.  Thanks cody. I am learning C too. from "C primus
> > plus" any thoughts from devs. which we should read?
>
> You may want to give this a try:
> http://c.learncodethehardway.org/book/learn-c-the-hard-way.html
>
>
> John

IMO tHe most valuable book is Kernighan & Ritchie "The C Programming
Language".

        -Otto

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Re: OpenBSD forked

David Walker-16
In reply to this post by Dominguez, Roland
John <openbsd () lacutt ! com>
> You may want to give this a try:
> http://c.learncodethehardway.org/book/learn-c-the-hard-way.html

Cheers.

http://publications.gbdirect.co.uk/c_book/

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Re: OpenBSD forked

Nico Kadel-Garcia-2
In reply to this post by Matthew Dempsky-3
On Wed, Jun 13, 2012 at 4:34 PM, Matthew Dempsky <[hidden email]> wrote:
> On Wed, Jun 13, 2012 at 10:44 AM, Dominguez, Roland
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> I just came across this article and was wondering if it's legit:
>>
>
http://www.h-online.com/open/news/item/OpenBSD-forked-to-create-Bitrig-161695
>> 4.html
>
> "They also plan to port libc++ and the compiler-rt runtime library in
> order to remove the GPL-licensed libstdc++ and libgcc.a libraries."

I've been busy lately in Germany at SVNday, a Subversion conference.
It was fun, but I've been too busy to see this.

Coming back and checking the thread, allow me to start laughing
*REALLY HARD* at this, since I've seen no other comments on it. The
ability to lock your hardware with libc and glibc errors is only
exceeded by the kernel itself, and maintaining compilers to take
advantage of new libc features is...... well, it's a lot of work too.
And keeping it compatible with the various other GPL or open source
tools that are commonly used in the real world? Really, really good
luck with those!!!!

If they succed, I'm going to be very, very surprised.

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