OpenBSD forked

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OpenBSD forked

Dominguez, Roland
I just came across this article and was wondering if it's legit:
http://www.h-online.com/open/news/item/OpenBSD-forked-to-create-Bitrig-161695
4.html

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Re: OpenBSD forked

David Coppa
On Wed, Jun 13, 2012 at 7:44 PM, Dominguez, Roland
<[hidden email]> wrote:
> I just came across this article and was wondering if it's legit:
> http://www.h-online.com/open/news/item/OpenBSD-forked-to-create-Bitrig-161695
> 4.html

Yes, it's legit and it reflects the reality of the facts

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Re: OpenBSD forked

Matthew Dempsky-3
In reply to this post by Dominguez, Roland
On Wed, Jun 13, 2012 at 10:44 AM, Dominguez, Roland
<[hidden email]> wrote:
> I just came across this article and was wondering if it's legit:
>
http://www.h-online.com/open/news/item/OpenBSD-forked-to-create-Bitrig-161695
> 4.html

"They also plan to port libc++ and the compiler-rt runtime library in
order to remove the GPL-licensed libstdc++ and libgcc.a libraries."

I'm interested to see what they do about replacing the _Unwind_*()
functions in libgcc.a that handle unwinding the stack during C++
exception handling.  Currently the only BSD-licensed implementation I
know of is libunwind, which looks like a large undertaking to port to
OpenBSD.

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Re: OpenBSD forked

Theo de Raadt
In reply to this post by Dominguez, Roland
>On Wed, Jun 13, 2012 at 7:44 PM, Dominguez, Roland
><[hidden email]> wrote:
>> I just came across this article and was wondering if it's legit:
>> http://www.h-online.com/open/news/item/OpenBSD-forked-to-create-Bitrig-161695
>> 4.html
>
>Yes, it's legit and it reflects the reality of the facts

Except for the fact that it is bullshit.

They started the fork because they got kicked out because one
developer (Marco) hired 5 other developers for his startup company,
and attempted to hire around 10 other developers in a sneaky and
underhanded way.  They were told, oh i forget they were "asked", to
not tell anyone else in OpenBSD that this was happening, probably
because people "including Theo" would be upset.

Funny thing is, I've never been upset about the 20+ OpenBSD and
ex-OpenBSD developers who now work for google.

Previously, many of those developers were in critical positions in the
development team.  As they were suddenly hired with such terms and
conditions, they became more scarce in OpenBSD -- perhaps because they
suddenly got real busy with work, but also to avoid telling others
that this was happening.  Various projects lagged.  To avoid telling a
lie, they instead chose to not tell the truth.  It had effects. It
was dishonest of them to not tell their co-developers that they were
creating vacuums in the development process.

So because of those decisions, they are now gone from OpenBSD.  And
now they miss it.  So now, all these guys who work for the same
company have started a fork.  And it is directed by the guy who hired
them in the first place.

From where I stand, that is the truth.

Yet none of that is in that article, because the truth hurts,
doesn't it guys?

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Re: OpenBSD forked

Jay Patel-7
In reply to this post by Dominguez, Roland
Hehehe ..

:P

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Re: OpenBSD forked

Peter Laufenberg
In reply to this post by Theo de Raadt
>Funny thing is, I've never been upset about the 20+ OpenBSD and
>ex-OpenBSD developers who now work for google.

Do they still work on OpenBSD and contribute back?

-- p

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Re: OpenBSD forked

Jay Patel-7
In reply to this post by Dominguez, Roland
I meant . Theo is right. Truth hurts. :D

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Re: OpenBSD forked

Ted Unangst-6
In reply to this post by Theo de Raadt
On Sun, Jun 17, 2012 at 16:14, Peter Laufenberg wrote:
>>Funny thing is, I've never been upset about the 20+ OpenBSD and
>>ex-OpenBSD developers who now work for google.
>
> Do they still work on OpenBSD and contribute back?

yes.  some more, some less.

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Re: OpenBSD forked

Theo de Raadt
In reply to this post by Dominguez, Roland
>On Sun, Jun 17, 2012 at 16:14, Peter Laufenberg wrote:
>>>Funny thing is, I've never been upset about the 20+ OpenBSD and
>>>ex-OpenBSD developers who now work for google.
>>
>> Do they still work on OpenBSD and contribute back?
>
>yes.  some more, some less.

first off, I do not understand the word "back" that Peter used.

they simply "contribute" by making changes in our tree.  they don't
"contribute back".  using "back" implies that what they work on at
google has anything to do with openbsd.  none of us know if that is
the case, and if it is, so what?

they are free to do anything they want.

google is their job.  other people have jobs too :-)

those openbsd developers who work there, and also do commits here, do
so out of passion, and fully cooperate with the other developers to
move a source tree forward.  that's good enough for us.  other people
work at other jobs, and the same happens.

secondly, what strikes me as very interesting is that almost all
developers who get new jobs -- at google or elsewhere -- tell their
co-developers that they are in the midst of a life-changing moment in
their lives, and that will get busy and not be of as much use in the
next while.

except that did not happen for the crew marco hired.

in that case, secrecy was paramount.

in that case, they got busy and did not tell the people they were
working with.  they effectively abandoned the projects that were
active in the tree headed to the next release, and left other
developers hanging out to dry -- by not telling them that 5+ of them
were suddenly not capable of helping.

as a group, they chose to be ex-OpenBSD developers, by their actions
of not participating with partners they had promised to develop
with.

even now, some active OpenBSD developers are judging me for my
reaction, and I can understand the uncertainly of their position.

make of it what you will.

it's too stressfull. perhaps i should become an ex-OpenBSD
developer too, those people seem to have much more glamourous
lives...

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Re: OpenBSD forked

Peter J. Philipp-3
On Sun, Jun 17, 2012 at 12:24:38PM -0600, Theo de Raadt wrote:
> make of it what you will.
>
> it's too stressfull. perhaps i should become an ex-OpenBSD
> developer too, those people seem to have much more glamourous
> lives...

Having followed OpenBSD for quite some time I noticed that good developers
come and go.  They come in, make something great happen, and disappear again.
Also there have been forks and I also noticed that no fork gets a light
judgement.  Rightfully so.  And then I always appreciated the permanent
element in OpenBSD that guides our attention to areas we as users and
sideliners don't always see immediately.  I'll keep buying CD's when available
and I do donations here and there when I feel like it, and I don't regret it.
If I were you I'd stay for as long as the salary is good and if there is more
money to go around employ some people in Calgary or something.  Made in Canada
is great!  I just can't see you working for google or microsoft :-P.


-peter

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Re: OpenBSD forked

Benny Lofgren
On 2012-06-17 21.31, Peter J. Philipp wrote:
> And then I always appreciated the permanent
> element in OpenBSD that guides our attention to areas we as users and
> sideliners don't always see immediately.  I'll keep buying CD's when available
> and I do donations here and there when I feel like it, and I don't regret it.

+1

/B

--
internetlabbet.se     / work:   +46 8 551 124 80      / "Words must
Benny Lofgren        /  mobile: +46 70 718 11 90     /   be weighed,
                    /   fax:    +46 8 551 124 89    /    not counted."
                   /    email:  benny -at- internetlabbet.se

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Re: OpenBSD forked

Rob Pierce
In reply to this post by Peter J. Philipp-3
100001 1010101

----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter J. Philipp" <[hidden email]>
To: "Theo de Raadt" <[hidden email]>
Cc: [hidden email], [hidden email], [hidden email]
Sent: Sunday, June 17, 2012 3:31:36 PM
Subject: Re: OpenBSD forked

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Re: OpenBSD forked

Raymond Lillard
In reply to this post by Peter J. Philipp-3
On 06/17/2012 12:31 PM, Peter J. Philipp wrote:
> Having followed OpenBSD for quite some time I noticed that good developers
> come and go.  They come in, make something great happen, and disappear again.
> Also there have been forks and I also noticed that no fork gets a light
> judgment.  Rightfully so.  And then I always appreciated the permanent
> element in OpenBSD that guides our attention to areas we as users and
> sideliners don't always see immediately.  I'll keep buying CD's when available
> and I do donations here and there when I feel like it, and I don't regret it.

ditto.

I almost always remain silent in political matters,
(relating to OpenBSD that is).

I will list some reasons why I am not going anywhere
soon for a "free" OS.  I have been using, donating
hardware and purchasing CDs since 3.0.


Reason 1:  Legacy Architectures
I have many "legacy " machines in service because they
can be acquired for next to free (sometimes just free).

These legacy machines are very good at exposing subtle
bugs not found by compiling and running on Intel/AMD
hardware.

Since these legacy architectures are "strange" in the
i386/AMD64 context, exploiters are unlikely to bother
with them.  None of my Internet facing machines are on
popular architectures.

I have seen attackers come and leave as soon as they
figure out what they are up against.  The combination
of OpenBSD and uncommon architectures is a very tough
nut to crack.


Reason 2:  Security
This is an unknown.  All FOSS claims to be free, fast
and secure.  Even Microsoft claims to be secure. Maybe
the new team will be as fanatical as Theo, likely not
if their FAQ is to be believed.  Their reputation for
security will be revealed with the passage of time.


Reason 3:  Crypto
I don't know where the new project is located, but
they seem to have a server in Southfield, MI USA and
another in Denmark. I hope none of the developers is
subject to US export laws regarding cryptography and
that the code is maintained on servers also not subject
to those laws.

Just look at the recent MegaUpLoad case.  That case
is reportedly about a bunch of ripped off movies.
I have googled a bit and have not found a physical
location for the project or its code.


Reason 4:  Stability
The new project FAQ states they intend to be "less
restrictive with the codebase when it comes to
experimenting with features."  Maybe in the long run
some of the new features may be introduced into OBSD,
but in the near term I expect much instability given
the broad range of deeply embedded things they intend
to change.


Reason 1 is a big problem for me and my crusty old war
horses.  Reasons 2 & 3 may be unfounded, the secrecy
here (there are no developer names listed on the project
web site) is not very confidence building.   As to
reason 4, I am only mildly interested in fast.  I want
correct and stable execution above all else.  For this
reason I expect to continue with OBSD for a long time.

I do have considerable sympathy for clearing GNU out
of the code base though.

Now going back into lurker mode.
Regards,
Ray

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Re: OpenBSD forked

SJP Lists
On 18 June 2012 15:46, Raymond Lillard <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 06/17/2012 12:31 PM, Peter J. Philipp wrote:
>>
>> Having followed OpenBSD for quite some time I noticed that good developers
>> come and go.  They come in, make something great happen, and disappear
>> again.
>> Also there have been forks and I also noticed that no fork gets a light
>> judgment.  Rightfully so.  And then I always appreciated the permanent
>>
>> element in OpenBSD that guides our attention to areas we as users and
>> sideliners don't always see immediately.  I'll keep buying CD's when
>> available
>> and I do donations here and there when I feel like it, and I don't regret
>> it.
>
>
> ditto.
>
> I almost always remain silent in political matters,
> (relating to OpenBSD that is).
>
> I will list some reasons why I am not going anywhere
> soon for a "free" OS.  I have been using, donating
> hardware and purchasing CDs since 3.0.
>
>
> Reason 1:  Legacy Architectures
> I have many "legacy " machines in service because they
> can be acquired for next to free (sometimes just free).
>
> These legacy machines are very good at exposing subtle
> bugs not found by compiling and running on Intel/AMD
> hardware.
>
> Since these legacy architectures are "strange" in the
> i386/AMD64 context, exploiters are unlikely to bother
> with them.  None of my Internet facing machines are on
> popular architectures.
>
> I have seen attackers come and leave as soon as they
> figure out what they are up against.  The combination
> of OpenBSD and uncommon architectures is a very tough
> nut to crack.
>
>
> Reason 2:  Security
> This is an unknown.  All FOSS claims to be free, fast
> and secure.  Even Microsoft claims to be secure. Maybe
> the new team will be as fanatical as Theo, likely not
> if their FAQ is to be believed.  Their reputation for
> security will be revealed with the passage of time.
>
>
> Reason 3:  Crypto
> I don't know where the new project is located, but
> they seem to have a server in Southfield, MI USA and
> another in Denmark. I hope none of the developers is
> subject to US export laws regarding cryptography and
> that the code is maintained on servers also not subject
> to those laws.
>
> Just look at the recent MegaUpLoad case.  That case
> is reportedly about a bunch of ripped off movies.
> I have googled a bit and have not found a physical
> location for the project or its code.
>
>
> Reason 4:  Stability
> The new project FAQ states they intend to be "less
> restrictive with the codebase when it comes to
> experimenting with features."  Maybe in the long run
> some of the new features may be introduced into OBSD,
> but in the near term I expect much instability given
> the broad range of deeply embedded things they intend
> to change.
>
>
> Reason 1 is a big problem for me and my crusty old war
> horses.  Reasons 2 & 3 may be unfounded, the secrecy
> here (there are no developer names listed on the project
> web site) is not very confidence building.   As to
> reason 4, I am only mildly interested in fast.  I want
> correct and stable execution above all else.  For this
> reason I expect to continue with OBSD for a long time.
>
> I do have considerable sympathy for clearing GNU out
> of the code base though.
>
> Now going back into lurker mode.
> Regards,
> Ray

The secretive nature is concerning.  But I hope that this situation
can somehow turn out to be beneficial to both projects in the long
term.

As long as my favourite and most relied upon OS continues to evolve, I
will be happy.  And I will certainly continue to buy from and donate
to the OpenBSD project where possible.


Shane

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Re: OpenBSD forked

Theo de Raadt
In reply to this post by Dominguez, Roland
>The secretive nature is concerning.  But I hope that this situation
>can somehow turn out to be beneficial to both projects in the long
>term.
>
>As long as my favourite and most relied upon OS continues to evolve, I
>will be happy.  And I will certainly continue to buy from and donate
>to the OpenBSD project where possible.

Well let me break some secrets.

It is run by Marco Peereboom, and the machines it operators on
are associated with the company comformal and their partners.

Dale Rahn is in there too.

So is Thordur, certain.

Owain is involved too, I think.

I am certain someone can use their git to find out who they
are.

Ariane wants to be involved as well, but is still waiting to
see how others in the project feel.

All of those people work for Marco Peereboom as employees and
contractors.

They are a US operation.

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Re: OpenBSD forked

Andrew Dalgleish
In reply to this post by Dominguez, Roland
On 14/06/2012 3:44 AM, Dominguez, Roland wrote:
> I just came across this article and was wondering if it's legit:
> http://www.h-online.com/open/news/item/OpenBSD-forked-to-create-Bitrig-161695
> 4.html

Those who do not study history...

https://www.bitrig.org/viewgit/?a=viewblob&p=bitrig&h=59fc82dbaf7eaff6cf9ee6aa607951587f5d6d7f&hb=HEAD&f=usr.bin/banner/banner.1

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Re: OpenBSD forked

Hugo Osvaldo Barrera
In reply to this post by Raymond Lillard
On 2012-06-18 02:46, Raymond Lillard wrote:
> Reason 4:  Stability
> The new project FAQ states they intend to be "less
> restrictive with the codebase when it comes to
> experimenting with features."  Maybe in the long run
> some of the new features may be introduced into OBSD,
> but in the near term I expect much instability given
> the broad range of deeply embedded things they intend
> to change.

This is very much what I'd expect: they experiment with several
features, being not-so-stable most of the the process, but maybe once
some of those features mature and become stable enough, they can be
ported back to OpenBSD.

Their work getting rid of GNU stuff will, inevitably, affect OpenBSD (if
they succeed at that anyway).

--
Hugo Osvaldo Barrera

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Re: OpenBSD forked

Kevin Chadwick-2
In reply to this post by Ted Unangst-6
> yes.  some more, some less.

The feature argument - surely any barriers there must mean that that
ideal goes against everything OpenBSD stands for. I wonder if that's
just a developer enticer.

I wouldn't mind better ARM support but I don't see why that couldn't
be done under the OpenBSD project anyway.

From the website atleast, maybe the code says more. I fail to see the
reasoning.

________________________________________________________

 Why not do something good every day and install BOINC.
________________________________________________________

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Re: OpenBSD forked

Indunil Jayasooriya
In reply to this post by Hugo Osvaldo Barrera
> Their work getting rid of GNU stuff will, inevitably, affect OpenBSD (if
> they succeed at that anyway).
>

     Hmm, I personally prefer BSD Style licence. For me, BSD Philosophy has
much more freedom. NOT Copyleft. ( I love it very much ) I'd like to see
more BSD style stuffs coming in.

anyway GPL is also doing a good job in the world of Open Source.






--
Thank you
Indunil Jayasooriya

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Re: OpenBSD forked

Jay Patel-7
In reply to this post by Dominguez, Roland
Well. From PC-BSD ,FreeBSD gained much benefit. Hope that might happen here
too.

Regards,
Jay.

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