OpenBSD Website, multilanguage faq

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OpenBSD Website, multilanguage faq

Wesley MOUEDINE ASSABY
Hi

There's no anymore multilanguage pages ?

Regards,

Wesley

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Re: OpenBSD Website, multilanguage faq

Amit Kulkarni-5
On Thu, Apr 3, 2014 at 3:30 AM, Wesley MOUEDINE ASSABY <
[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi
>
> There's no anymore multilanguage pages ?
>
> Regards,
>
> Wesley
>
>
They are gone... There are huge bunch of commits starting from this one. I
thought it was a subtle April fool's joke but apparently not.
http://marc.info/?l=openbsd-cvs&m=139637003025491&w=2

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Re: OpenBSD Website, multilanguage faq

Wesley MOUEDINE ASSABY
Le 2014-04-03 15:50, Amit Kulkarni a écrit :

> On Thu, Apr 3, 2014 at 3:30 AM, Wesley MOUEDINE ASSABY
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> Hi
>>
>> There's no anymore multilanguage pages ?
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Wesley
>
> They are gone... There are huge bunch of commits starting from this
> one. I thought it was a subtle April fool's joke but apparently not.
> http://marc.info/?l=openbsd-cvs&m=139637003025491&w=2 [1]

i thought the same before post...
>
>
> Links:
> ------
> [1] http://marc.info/?l=openbsd-cvs&amp;m=139637003025491&amp;w=2

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Re: OpenBSD Website, multilanguage faq

Nick Holland
In reply to this post by Wesley MOUEDINE ASSABY
On 04/03/14 04:29, Wesley MOUEDINE ASSABY wrote:
> Hi
>
> There's no anymore multilanguage pages ?

The problem was that few of the translations were kept up to date or
complete.  Really, I'm amazed that the (volunteer) translators could
keep up as well as they did, but it wasn't generally as up to date as
things needed to be.

Old documentation is as bad or worse than no documentation.

And realistically, OpenBSD is rather English-centric.  Let's pretend the
website was perfectly and instantly translated into your preferred
language...
...then you want to see the details of something mentioned briefly in
the FAQ and type
    man pf.conf
boom.  English.  Only.

Error messages?  English only.

And so on.

Perfect world?  No, far from it.  But it is the best we can do right now.


Granted, I've lost my most valuable proofreading team...and one of my
key tools to keeping me humble:  When I would write something I was very
proud of...then get a correction of my basic English from someone for
whom English is a fourth or fifth language, it's hard to get an inflated
ego. :)

Nick.

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Re: OpenBSD Website, multilanguage faq

Marcus MERIGHI
[hidden email] (Nick Holland), 2014.04.03 (Thu) 16:19 (CEST):

> On 04/03/14 04:29, Wesley MOUEDINE ASSABY wrote:
> > There's no anymore multilanguage pages ?
>
> The problem was that few of the translations were kept up to date or
> complete.  Really, I'm amazed that the (volunteer) translators could
> keep up as well as they did, but it wasn't generally as up to date as
> things needed to be.
>
> Old documentation is as bad or worse than no documentation.
>
> And realistically, OpenBSD is rather English-centric.  Let's pretend the
> website was perfectly and instantly translated into your preferred
> language...
> ...then you want to see the details of something mentioned briefly in
> the FAQ and type
>     man pf.conf
> boom.  English.  Only.
>
> Error messages?  English only.

$ cat /etc/foobar
cat: /etc/foobar: Datei oder Verzeichnis nicht gefunden

(EN: file or directory not found)

Bye, Marcus

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Re: OpenBSD Website, multilanguage faq

Theo de Raadt
In reply to this post by Wesley MOUEDINE ASSABY
> [hidden email] (Nick Holland), 2014.04.03 (Thu) 16:19 (CEST):
> > On 04/03/14 04:29, Wesley MOUEDINE ASSABY wrote:
> > > There's no anymore multilanguage pages ?
> >
> > The problem was that few of the translations were kept up to date or
> > complete.  Really, I'm amazed that the (volunteer) translators could
> > keep up as well as they did, but it wasn't generally as up to date as
> > things needed to be.
> >
> > Old documentation is as bad or worse than no documentation.
> >
> > And realistically, OpenBSD is rather English-centric.  Let's pretend the
> > website was perfectly and instantly translated into your preferred
> > language...
> > ...then you want to see the details of something mentioned briefly in
> > the FAQ and type
> >     man pf.conf
> > boom.  English.  Only.
> >
> > Error messages?  English only.
>
> $ cat /etc/foobar
> cat: /etc/foobar: Datei oder Verzeichnis nicht gefunden
>
> (EN: file or directory not found)

Marcus, thank you for your entirely reasonable response.

It is obvious you are arguing you want them all back.  In that case,
please do bring all the translations back, and give the community
gaurantees that you will maintain them with high quality from here on.

Come on, go at it.

If you cannot make those guarantees, then it seems like you are simply
trying to push others to maintaining the subsystem.

You can decide what you do with your time, but you cannot decide what
other people do with theirs.

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Re: OpenBSD Website, multilanguage faq

Chris Bennett
On Thu, Apr 03, 2014 at 11:39:02AM -0600, Theo de Raadt wrote:

> > [hidden email] (Nick Holland), 2014.04.03 (Thu) 16:19 (CEST):
> > > On 04/03/14 04:29, Wesley MOUEDINE ASSABY wrote:
> > > > There's no anymore multilanguage pages ?
> > >
> > > The problem was that few of the translations were kept up to date or
> > > complete.  Really, I'm amazed that the (volunteer) translators could
> > > keep up as well as they did, but it wasn't generally as up to date as
> > > things needed to be.
> > >
> > > Old documentation is as bad or worse than no documentation.
> > >
> > > And realistically, OpenBSD is rather English-centric.  Let's pretend the
> > > website was perfectly and instantly translated into your preferred
> > > language...
> > > ...then you want to see the details of something mentioned briefly in
> > > the FAQ and type
> > >     man pf.conf
> > > boom.  English.  Only.
> > >
> > > Error messages?  English only.
> >
> > $ cat /etc/foobar
> > cat: /etc/foobar: Datei oder Verzeichnis nicht gefunden
> >
> > (EN: file or directory not found)
>
> Marcus, thank you for your entirely reasonable response.
>
> It is obvious you are arguing you want them all back.  In that case,
> please do bring all the translations back, and give the community
> gaurantees that you will maintain them with high quality from here on.
>
> Come on, go at it.
>
> If you cannot make those guarantees, then it seems like you are simply
> trying to push others to maintaining the subsystem.
>
> You can decide what you do with your time, but you cannot decide what
> other people do with theirs.
>

Here were my problems with contributing to translations:

1. Had to run release to do translations. I don't want to.
2. Had to get onto a different CVS server. Yuck.

Most of each translation does not change in any big way after done.

How about we do translations FOR -CURRENT?
It is always released six months later!

Run it off the regular CVS servers. Let pages get translated with small
diffs. If I want to translate just one sentence, why not? Eventually the
whole page will be done (many people contributing, not just one person)
and only need small updates.
The website is pretty essential to someone clueless, but brave.

Perhaps some ports for base commands only? man --lang=es rm or something
like that? How many minutes to just add a translation for rm, mv and cp?

Regularly I see people wanting something helpful to do, but they can't
program C or this or that, etc. This would give something for
non-developers to do and feel good about.

Chris Bennett

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Re: OpenBSD Website, multilanguage faq

Marcus MERIGHI
In reply to this post by Theo de Raadt
[hidden email] (Theo de Raadt), 2014.04.03 (Thu) 19:39 (CEST):

> > [hidden email] (Nick Holland), 2014.04.03 (Thu) 16:19 (CEST):
> > > On 04/03/14 04:29, Wesley MOUEDINE ASSABY wrote:
> > > > There's no anymore multilanguage pages ?
> > >
> > > The problem was that few of the translations were kept up to date or
> > > complete.  Really, I'm amazed that the (volunteer) translators could
> > > keep up as well as they did, but it wasn't generally as up to date as
> > > things needed to be.
> > >
> > > Old documentation is as bad or worse than no documentation.
> > >
> > > And realistically, OpenBSD is rather English-centric.  Let's pretend the
> > > website was perfectly and instantly translated into your preferred
> > > language...
> > > ...then you want to see the details of something mentioned briefly in
> > > the FAQ and type
> > >     man pf.conf
> > > boom.  English.  Only.
> > >
> > > Error messages?  English only.
> >
> > $ cat /etc/foobar
> > cat: /etc/foobar: Datei oder Verzeichnis nicht gefunden
> >
> > (EN: file or directory not found)
>
> Marcus, thank you for your entirely reasonable response.
>
> It is obvious you are arguing you want them all back.  In that case,

No! I should have been more verbose:
Just wanted to show that even nick is wrong every once in a while. :-)

(I'm rather annoyed by these german error messages as I have to translate
them or change my locale for posting to @openbsd.org. And it's still
confusing to see OpenBSD speak german ;-)

Bye, Marcus

> please do bring all the translations back, and give the community
> gaurantees that you will maintain them with high quality from here on.
>
> Come on, go at it.
>
> If you cannot make those guarantees, then it seems like you are simply
> trying to push others to maintaining the subsystem.
>
> You can decide what you do with your time, but you cannot decide what
> other people do with theirs.

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Re: OpenBSD Website, multilanguage faq

Theo de Raadt
In reply to this post by Wesley MOUEDINE ASSABY
> Just wanted to show that even nick is wrong every once in a while. :-)

So he's wrong, and you are wrong too.  Fantastic.  And then we
move on?

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Re: OpenBSD Website, multilanguage faq

Theo de Raadt
In reply to this post by Wesley MOUEDINE ASSABY
> Run it off the regular CVS servers. Let pages get translated with small
> diffs. If I want to translate just one sentence, why not? Eventually the
> whole page will be done (many people contributing, not just one person)
> and only need small updates.

The many fingers myth.

It actually does no produce useable results.  It was impeding other
changes.  People didn't want to improve things because it would hurt
the translation effort.

> Perhaps some ports for base commands only? man --lang=es rm or something
> like that? How many minutes to just add a translation for rm, mv and cp?

Are you kidding?  Who does that help?  Who?

> Regularly I see people wanting something helpful to do, but they can't
> program C or this or that, etc. This would give something for
> non-developers to do and feel good about.

The project as a whole does not exist to "make non-developers feel
good".  A soup kitchen is what you are looking for.

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Re: OpenBSD Website, multilanguage faq

Chris Bennett
On Thu, Apr 03, 2014 at 12:16:08PM -0600, Theo de Raadt wrote:
> > Run it off the regular CVS servers. Let pages get translated with small
> > diffs. If I want to translate just one sentence, why not? Eventually the
> > whole page will be done (many people contributing, not just one person)
> > and only need small updates.
>
> The many fingers myth.

Hmm, I guess the ports tree with small regular updates, often by
different people isn't many fingers.
Dropping maintainership for X ports, anyone want to take over?
>
> It actually does no produce useable results.  It was impeding other
> changes.  People didn't want to improve things because it would hurt
> the translation effort.

I don't understand this. Impeded what?

Example: You are in a building that just started to burn down.
Someone shouts "felfh lldowc plop" to you. Huh? You die.
Someone shouts "building out down fire, go!" you live.
This isn't source code. Doesn't need perfection.
>
> > Perhaps some ports for base commands only? man --lang=es rm or something
> > like that? How many minutes to just add a translation for rm, mv and cp?
>
> Are you kidding?  Who does that help?  Who?

Who does it hurt? It was just a thought. But I translate my English web
pages into Spanish at my convenience. Books get edited slowly. First
edition, second edition, third edition. Ports are hardly do or die. They
get dropped when not maintained.

>
> > Regularly I see people wanting something helpful to do, but they can't
> > program C or this or that, etc. This would give something for
> > non-developers to do and feel good about.
>
> The project as a whole does not exist to "make non-developers feel
> good".  A soup kitchen is what you are looking for.
>

I don't really care who does it. If I get something I want, then I win.
These things are lots of work. I don't have time to change the world.
So if this gets done, I get something I can use. I'll throw in what I
can towards it when I have free time.

Chris Bennett

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Re: OpenBSD Website, multilanguage faq

Theo de Raadt
In reply to this post by Wesley MOUEDINE ASSABY
> On Thu, Apr 03, 2014 at 12:16:08PM -0600, Theo de Raadt wrote:
> > > Run it off the regular CVS servers. Let pages get translated with small
> > > diffs. If I want to translate just one sentence, why not? Eventually the
> > > whole page will be done (many people contributing, not just one person)
> > > and only need small updates.
> >
> > The many fingers myth.
>
> Hmm, I guess the ports tree with small regular updates, often by
> different people isn't many fingers.
> Dropping maintainership for X ports, anyone want to take over?
> >
> > It actually does no produce useable results.  It was impeding other
> > changes.  People didn't want to improve things because it would hurt
> > the translation effort.
>
> I don't understand this. Impeded what?
>
> Example: You are in a building that just started to burn down.
> Someone shouts "felfh lldowc plop" to you. Huh? You die.
> Someone shouts "building out down fire, go!" you live.
> This isn't source code. Doesn't need perfection.
> >
> > > Perhaps some ports for base commands only? man --lang=es rm or something
> > > like that? How many minutes to just add a translation for rm, mv and cp?
> >
> > Are you kidding?  Who does that help?  Who?
>
> Who does it hurt? It was just a thought. But I translate my English web
> pages into Spanish at my convenience. Books get edited slowly. First
> edition, second edition, third edition. Ports are hardly do or die. They
> get dropped when not maintained.
>
> >
> > > Regularly I see people wanting something helpful to do, but they can't
> > > program C or this or that, etc. This would give something for
> > > non-developers to do and feel good about.
> >
> > The project as a whole does not exist to "make non-developers feel
> > good".  A soup kitchen is what you are looking for.
> >
>
> I don't really care who does it. If I get something I want, then I win.
> These things are lots of work. I don't have time to change the world.
> So if this gets done, I get something I can use. I'll throw in what I
> can towards it when I have free time.

Thanks for your words of criticism.

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Re: OpenBSD Website, multilanguage faq

Ted Unangst-6
In reply to this post by Theo de Raadt
On Thu, Apr 03, 2014 at 13:39, Chris Bennett wrote:

> Example: You are in a building that just started to burn down.
> Someone shouts "felfh lldowc plop" to you. Huh? You die.
> Someone shouts "building out down fire, go!" you live.
> This isn't source code. Doesn't need perfection.

If that's all it takes, use google translate. At least then people
know the translation may not be accurate. As it is, putting something
on the www.openbsd.org site makes it look official, but I have no idea
if the things the translations are true or not.

Hell, the English pages contain enough lies. crypto.html would be
comically outdated except if it's comical at all. The effort spent
translating that page into Dutch (as if they can't read English in .nl)
would have been far better spent improving the content.

Which is more important? The convenience of reading that OpenBSD uses
MD5 in your native language, or reading that OpenBSD actually uses
much better hashing algorithms than MD5?

This is the same argument as the people demanding we refresh the web
site with fancy CSS and rounded corners while completely ignoring the
fact that the words are the important part.

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Re: OpenBSD Website, multilanguage faq

Chris Bennett
On Thu, Apr 03, 2014 at 04:09:35PM -0400, Ted Unangst wrote:

> On Thu, Apr 03, 2014 at 13:39, Chris Bennett wrote:
>
> If that's all it takes, use google translate. At least then people
> know the translation may not be accurate. As it is, putting something
> on the www.openbsd.org site makes it look official, but I have no idea
> if the things the translations are true or not.
>
> Hell, the English pages contain enough lies. crypto.html would be
> comically outdated except if it's comical at all. The effort spent
> translating that page into Dutch (as if they can't read English in .nl)
> would have been far better spent improving the content.
>
> Which is more important? The convenience of reading that OpenBSD uses
> MD5 in your native language, or reading that OpenBSD actually uses
> much better hashing algorithms than MD5?
>

Well, if my ideas suck, better to have stuck it out there than offer
nothing. At some point I may even have a good idea!

> This is the same argument as the people demanding we refresh the web
> site with fancy CSS and rounded corners while completely ignoring the
> fact that the words are the important part.

I hate people like that. The following letters should have rounded
corners: R P O B D Q. Please don't compare my ideas to those people,
it's insulting!

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Re: OpenBSD Website, multilanguage faq

Theo de Raadt
In reply to this post by Wesley MOUEDINE ASSABY
> On Thu, Apr 03, 2014 at 04:09:35PM -0400, Ted Unangst wrote:
> > On Thu, Apr 03, 2014 at 13:39, Chris Bennett wrote:
> >
> > If that's all it takes, use google translate. At least then people
> > know the translation may not be accurate. As it is, putting something
> > on the www.openbsd.org site makes it look official, but I have no idea
> > if the things the translations are true or not.
> >
> > Hell, the English pages contain enough lies. crypto.html would be
> > comically outdated except if it's comical at all. The effort spent
> > translating that page into Dutch (as if they can't read English in .nl)
> > would have been far better spent improving the content.
> >
> > Which is more important? The convenience of reading that OpenBSD uses
> > MD5 in your native language, or reading that OpenBSD actually uses
> > much better hashing algorithms than MD5?
> >
>
> Well, if my ideas suck, better to have stuck it out there than offer
> nothing.

You have offered nothing.

You offered "Ideas"?  You didn't offer ideas --  you offered demands
that we should reinstante something.  You overstate your worth.

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Re: OpenBSD Website, multilanguage faq

Chris Bennett
On Thu, Apr 03, 2014 at 03:27:28PM -0600, Theo de Raadt wrote:
> >
> > Well, if my ideas suck, better to have stuck it out there than offer
> > nothing.
>
> You have offered nothing.
>
> You offered "Ideas"?  You didn't offer ideas --  you offered demands
> that we should reinstante something.  You overstate your worth.
>

My father regularly says that I do not speak my ideas clearly. He always
says I need to clarify what I really mean.

I did not mean to sound like I was demanding anything. What's gone is
gone, that's OK.

I really only meant to say why I found helping with the translations
myself difficult for me. Clearly translations are difficult work. Every
site for OpenBSD in Spanish is a dead work from several years ago.
Translating is not exciting work, but just busy work.

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Re: OpenBSD Website, multilanguage faq

consultor
In reply to this post by Theo de Raadt
On 04/03/2014 11:52 AM, Theo de Raadt wrote:
 >The project as a whole does not exist to "make non-developers feel
good". A soup >kitchen is what you are looking for.

Have you considered mailing lists in different Languages Theo?

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Re: OpenBSD Website, multilanguage faq

Theo de Raadt
In reply to this post by Wesley MOUEDINE ASSABY
> On 04/03/2014 11:52 AM, Theo de Raadt wrote:
>  >The project as a whole does not exist to "make non-developers feel
> good". A soup >kitchen is what you are looking for.
>
> Have you considered mailing lists in different Languages Theo?

First off, I am dissapointed that your mail did also not come in at
least one additional language besides English.

To answer your question...

Behind the scenes a discussion has occurred, which may require all
developers to commit their changes in many languages, perhaps as many
as demonstrated in the well known "My god there is an axe in my head"
document.

If that means a developer must first get assistance from a translater,
maybe that is a price worth paying.  Alternatively, we'll make an
appeal for contributions so that developers can take (non-programming)
language courses.  Those courses are not free.

But the big win is that a more global audience will start
understanding the intricacies of the open source movement's processes,
and before long we'll have developers from Uganda, Laos, Tajikistan,
and maybe even Alabama (ok, maybe that is a long shot).

I'm going to call this the "many tongues" effort.  Many eyes have not
found security problems, many fingers pointing haven't done much
actual lifting, so it is time to research the effect of another body
part.

Right now I'm working on adding multilingual support to the boot code.
Doing my part.




Ngale ngasese ingxoxo iye kwenzeka , okungase zidinga wonke onjiniyela
ukuba enze izinguquko yabo ngezilimi eziningi , mhlawumbe abaningi
njengoba kuboniswe abaziwa kahle " unkulunkulu My kukhona imbazo
asekhanda lami " mbhalo .

Uma lokho kusho umqambi kumele siqale usizo a translater , kungenzeka
ukuthi kungenxa ngenani kuwufanele nokukhokha . Kungenjalo ,
sizokwenza i isikhalo for iminikelo ukuze Onjiniyela kungathatha ( non
- izinhlelo ) zolimi izifundo . Lezo zifundo akuzona free .

Kodwa lo win enkulu ukuthi izethameli more global uzoqala ukuqonda
butholakala enqubweni eyinkimbinkimbi yokuthela izinqubo ukuhamba
umthombo ovulekile sika - futhi kungakabiphi, sizobe babe Onjiniyela
ezivela Uganda kuneLaos , Tajikistan , futhi mhlawumbe Alabama (
Kulungile , kungenzeka ukuthi kuyisimo shot eside ) .

Ngizofika ukubiza lokhu " izilimi eziningi ' ukuzikhandla . Amehlo
Eziningi azigcini Izinkinga lwezokuphepha bathola , iminwe eziningi
ekhombe abangazange kwenziwe okuningi bephakamisa uqobo , ngakho kuba
isikhathi ucwaningo umphumela komunye umzimba okuyingxenye .

Kwamanje Ngiyasebenza on unezela ukwesekwa ngezilimi eziningi ukuze
ikhodi ebhuthini .  Ukwenza okuyingxenye wami .

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Re: OpenBSD Website, multilanguage faq

Antoine Jacoutot-7
In reply to this post by Chris Bennett
Wow... just wow...
I was feeling a little bit bad that I had to drop the translation project maintenance but seeing all the totally clueless messages of this thread from people who were actually *never* concerned by translation before is amazing.
So much ungratefulness...
Thank you, I feel much much better now and I do not regret my decision at all.

--
Antoine

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Re: OpenBSD Website, multilanguage faq

Dmitrij D. Czarkoff-2
In reply to this post by Ted Unangst-6
Probably it is time to accept the fact that everything related to
software is in English, just like everything related to foreign affairs
is in French.  It is impossible maintain the knowledge of software
topics without having reasonable (at least poor) skills in English.
Pretending that it isn't true by wasting huge amount of time required
to keep the translations up to date doesn't help.

--
Dmitrij D. Czarkoff

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