Open Source hardware (Re: can't get vesa @ 1280x800 or nv)

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Open Source hardware (Re: can't get vesa @ 1280x800 or nv)

Matthieu Herrb-5
On Sat, Dec 5, 2009 at 9:02 PM, rhubbell <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Yes, I'd like to see some pointers also.  I recall that there was
> discussion (might've been on linux kernel) a while ago about a
> partially-open video card.  Why doesn't the community support that?

You mean http://www.opengraphics.org ?
What makes you say that? How did *you* contribute?

> I recall that price was a factor in lack of uptake.
> Seems to me that opensource is farsical if it runs on closesource hardware.
> So where's the opensource hardware? Seems like the new world order isn't
> going to allow that. The trend in hardware looks like a race to keep
> control.  Seems like we are going to be paying for the hardware but not
> owning; instead leasing.
>
> Or am I behind the times and there's salvation from some beneficent
> hardware maker in Taiwan?

Making hardware is a lot more difficult than writing software. So it takes
more resources and more skills. This is probably why there aren't so
many of them.

I'd recommend you read the wikipedia page:
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graphics_hardware_and_FOSS>


--
Matthieu Herrb

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Re: Open Source hardware (Re: can't get vesa @ 1280x800 or nv)

Soner Tari-2
On Sat, 2009-12-05 at 21:30 +0100, Matthieu Herrb wrote:
> Making hardware is a lot more difficult than writing software. So it takes
> more resources and more skills.

Sorry Matthieu, but I have to say that this is utter bullshit, and I
believe such underestimation is the underlying reason that many software
suck.

Read this for a summary of cognitive requirements of software design:
http://argouml.tigris.org/docs/robbins_dissertation/diss2.html

And yes, I did hardware design too. But no, I have no intension to
compare hardware and software development like you did.

I usually resist replying such threads and keep my silence, but your
comment above begged for it.

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Re: Open Source hardware (Re: can't get vesa @ 1280x800 or nv)

Ted Unangst-2
On Sat, Dec 5, 2009 at 4:09 PM, Soner Tari <[hidden email]> wrote:
> On Sat, 2009-12-05 at 21:30 +0100, Matthieu Herrb wrote:
>> Making hardware is a lot more difficult than writing software. So it takes
>> more resources and more skills.
>
> Sorry Matthieu, but I have to say that this is utter bullshit, and I
> believe such underestimation is the underlying reason that many software
> suck.

I think the point is the tools to make software are more readily
available than the tools to make hardware.  Let's say so you want to
make a graphics card.  Let's also say that you're only interested in
playing quake3.  What does it take to party like 1999?  About 150 MHz
on a 180nm process.  And what does it cost to fab some 180nm chips?
More than I've ever spent on all the computers I've ever written
software with.

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Re: Open Source hardware (Re: can't get vesa @ 1280x800 or nv)

rhubbell@ihubbell.com
In reply to this post by Matthieu Herrb-5
On Sat, 5 Dec 2009 21:30:28 +0100
Matthieu Herrb wrote:

> On Sat, Dec 5, 2009 at 9:02 PM, rhubbell <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > Yes, I'd like to see some pointers also.  I recall that there was
> > discussion (might've been on linux kernel) a while ago about a
> > partially-open video card.  Why doesn't the community support that?
>
> You mean http://www.opengraphics.org ?
> What makes you say that? How did *you* contribute?

Why did I say that? Let's take a poll on this list of how many people are
using one of those cards? Or any list, anywhere.

I have not contributed to it in anyway. But why is that relevant? Can you
explain? And how did you contribute?

>
> > I recall that price was a factor in lack of uptake.
> > Seems to me that opensource is farsical if it runs on closesource
> > hardware. So where's the opensource hardware? Seems like the new world
> > order isn't going to allow that. The trend in hardware looks like a
> > race to keep control.  Seems like we are going to be paying for the
> > hardware but not owning; instead leasing.
> >
> > Or am I behind the times and there's salvation from some beneficent
> > hardware maker in Taiwan?
>
> Making hardware is a lot more difficult than writing software. So it
> takes more resources and more skills. This is probably why there aren't
> so many of them.

You're saying the barrier to entry is too high?  I'm not expert but I
don't believe that is why.  There are other barriers.

>
> I'd recommend you read the wikipedia page:
> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graphics_hardware_and_FOSS>

I think I may have read that a while ago...I'll look.

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Re: Open Source hardware (Re: can't get vesa @ 1280x800 or nv)

rhubbell@ihubbell.com
In reply to this post by Ted Unangst-2
On Sat, 5 Dec 2009 17:08:36 -0500
Ted Unangst wrote:

> More than I've ever spent on all the computers I've ever written
> software with.

How much would that be? Ballpark. Doesn't seem like it would be very much.
Seems like you're just hand-waving without real numbers.

Wikipedia has a money-raised thermometer on their site from time-to-time
and they're raising millions.

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Re: Open Source hardware (Re: can't get vesa @ 1280x800 or nv)

bofh-6
Come back and talk when you've bought one for yourself, and donated
another to the project.

KTHX HAND

On 12/5/09, rhubbell <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Sat, 5 Dec 2009 17:08:36 -0500
> Ted Unangst wrote:
>
>> More than I've ever spent on all the computers I've ever written
>> software with.
>
> How much would that be? Ballpark. Doesn't seem like it would be very much.
> Seems like you're just hand-waving without real numbers.
>
> Wikipedia has a money-raised thermometer on their site from time-to-time
> and they're raising millions.
>
>

--
Sent from my mobile device

http://www.glumbert.com/media/shift
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tGvHNNOLnCk
"This officer's men seem to follow him merely out of idle curiosity."
-- Sandhurst officer cadet evaluation.
"Securing an environment of Windows platforms from abuse - external or
internal - is akin to trying to install sprinklers in a fireworks
factory where smoking on the job is permitted."  -- Gene Spafford
learn french:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=30v_g83VHK4

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Re: Open Source hardware (Re: can't get vesa @ 1280x800 or nv)

Marco Peereboom
In reply to this post by rhubbell@ihubbell.com
blah blah blah

go away troll

On Sat, Dec 05, 2009 at 02:59:19PM -0800, rhubbell wrote:

> On Sat, 5 Dec 2009 21:30:28 +0100
> Matthieu Herrb wrote:
>
> > On Sat, Dec 5, 2009 at 9:02 PM, rhubbell <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > > Yes, I'd like to see some pointers also.  I recall that there was
> > > discussion (might've been on linux kernel) a while ago about a
> > > partially-open video card.  Why doesn't the community support that?
> >
> > You mean http://www.opengraphics.org ?
> > What makes you say that? How did *you* contribute?
>
> Why did I say that? Let's take a poll on this list of how many people are
> using one of those cards? Or any list, anywhere.
>
> I have not contributed to it in anyway. But why is that relevant? Can you
> explain? And how did you contribute?
>
> >
> > > I recall that price was a factor in lack of uptake.
> > > Seems to me that opensource is farsical if it runs on closesource
> > > hardware. So where's the opensource hardware? Seems like the new world
> > > order isn't going to allow that. The trend in hardware looks like a
> > > race to keep control.  Seems like we are going to be paying for the
> > > hardware but not owning; instead leasing.
> > >
> > > Or am I behind the times and there's salvation from some beneficent
> > > hardware maker in Taiwan?
> >
> > Making hardware is a lot more difficult than writing software. So it
> > takes more resources and more skills. This is probably why there aren't
> > so many of them.
>
> You're saying the barrier to entry is too high?  I'm not expert but I
> don't believe that is why.  There are other barriers.
>
> >
> > I'd recommend you read the wikipedia page:
> > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graphics_hardware_and_FOSS>
>
> I think I may have read that a while ago...I'll look.

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Re: Open Source hardware (Re: can't get vesa @ 1280x800 or nv)

rhubbell@ihubbell.com
In reply to this post by bofh-6
On Sat, 5 Dec 2009 18:14:00 -0500
bofh wrote:

> Come back and talk when you've bought one for yourself, and donated
> another to the project.

Gee, ok. What have you contributed to it?
You don't want to converse. Fine by me.

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Re: Open Source hardware (Re: can't get vesa @ 1280x800 or nv)

bofh-6
On Sat, Dec 5, 2009 at 6:54 PM, rhubbell <[hidden email]> wrote:
> On Sat, 5 Dec 2009 18:14:00 -0500
> bofh wrote:
>
>> Come back and talk when you've bought one for yourself, and donated
>> another to the project.
>
> Gee, ok. What have you contributed to it?
> You don't want to converse. Fine by me.

You're a moron right?  Since when I did I say I contributed to it?
You're the one claiming it doesn't cost much.  And yet, you didn't
contribute.  And you want to see it succeed.  Seems that you like
others to do the hard work, and you can just armchair quarterback
right?


--
http://www.glumbert.com/media/shift
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tGvHNNOLnCk
"This officer's men seem to follow him merely out of idle curiosity."
-- Sandhurst officer cadet evaluation.
"Securing an environment of Windows platforms from abuse - external or
internal - is akin to trying to install sprinklers in a fireworks
factory where smoking on the job is permitted."  -- Gene Spafford
learn french:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=30v_g83VHK4

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Re: Open Source hardware (Re: can't get vesa @ 1280x800 or nv)

rhubbell@ihubbell.com
On Sat, 5 Dec 2009 19:10:19 -0500
bofh wrote:

> On Sat, Dec 5, 2009 at 6:54 PM, rhubbell <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > On Sat, 5 Dec 2009 18:14:00 -0500
> > bofh wrote:
> >
> >> Come back and talk when you've bought one for yourself, and donated
> >> another to the project.
> >
> > Gee, ok. What have you contributed to it?
> > You don't want to converse. Fine by me.
>
> You're a moron right?  Since when I did I say I contributed to it?
> You're the one claiming it doesn't cost much.  And yet, you didn't
> contribute.  And you want to see it succeed.  Seems that you like
> others to do the hard work, and you can just armchair quarterback
> right?

The sensitive type, eh?

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Re: Open Source hardware (Re: can't get vesa @ 1280x800 or nv)

rhubbell@ihubbell.com
Another sensitive type. Guess there are always a few on every list.


On Sat, 5 Dec 2009 19:17:14 -0600
Marco Peereboom wrote:

> fuck off troll
>
> On Sat, Dec 05, 2009 at 04:26:49PM -0800, rhubbell wrote:
> > On Sat, 5 Dec 2009 19:10:19 -0500
> > bofh wrote:
> >
> > > On Sat, Dec 5, 2009 at 6:54 PM, rhubbell <[hidden email]>
> > > wrote:
> > > > On Sat, 5 Dec 2009 18:14:00 -0500
> > > > bofh wrote:
> > > >
> > > >> Come back and talk when you've bought one for yourself, and
> > > >> donated another to the project.
> > > >
> > > > Gee, ok. What have you contributed to it?
> > > > You don't want to converse. Fine by me.
> > >
> > > You're a moron right?  Since when I did I say I contributed to it?
> > > You're the one claiming it doesn't cost much.  And yet, you didn't
> > > contribute.  And you want to see it succeed.  Seems that you like
> > > others to do the hard work, and you can just armchair quarterback
> > > right?
> >
> > The sensitive type, eh?

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Re: Open Source hardware (Re: can't get vesa @ 1280x800 or nv)

Tony Abernethy
rhubbell wrote:
> Another sensitive type. Guess there are always a few on every list.
As distinguished from insensitive twerps like yourself.

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Re: Open Source hardware (Re: can't get vesa @ 1280x800 or nv)

Bryan Steele-2
In reply to this post by Matthieu Herrb-5
rhubbell wrote:
> Another sensitive type. Guess there are always a few on every list.

It has nothing to do with sensitivity, we just have an aversion toward
idiots.

-Bryan.

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Re: Open Source hardware (Re: can't get vesa @ 1280x800 or nv)

Tomas Bodzar-4
In reply to this post by rhubbell@ihubbell.com
wow now I have point. You are like kid on sand. Look they have thermometer
and you haven't :-P :-D You don't have even any respect for long time OpenBSD
developers or users which know a LOT more then you. Just because you are
unqualified user doesn't mean that you can shout around on everyone.

And from your answers in this thread I can see that you haven't even small
idea about how expensive is develop of new HW. You are like more and more
newbies in Linux community. Give me everything now for free. I don't want to pay
anything, you are all idiots without knowledge and if you don't want to give me
something for free then I will shout on you a lot.

Uh sorry. I know from professionals that I must be "nice" on people with similar
problems because they need doctor. So please take my apology (:-D).

On Sun, Dec 6, 2009 at 12:04 AM, rhubbell <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Sat, 5 Dec 2009 17:08:36 -0500
> Ted Unangst wrote:
>
>> More than I've ever spent on all the computers I've ever written
>> software with.
>
> How much would that be? Ballpark. Doesn't seem like it would be very much.
> Seems like you're just hand-waving without real numbers.
>
> Wikipedia has a money-raised thermometer on their site from time-to-time
> and they're raising millions.
>
>



--
http://www.openbsd.org/lyrics.html

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Re: Open Source hardware (Re: can't get vesa @ 1280x800 or nv)

SJP Lists
In reply to this post by rhubbell@ihubbell.com
2009/12/6 rhubbell <[hidden email]>:
> Another sensitive type. Guess there are always a few on every list.

Your manner is counter productive, including for yourself.  So why do
you persist?

Unless of course you're more interested in causing mischief than
getting anything out of OpenBSD.

Please, either adjust your attitude or leave.

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Re: Open Source hardware (Re: can't get vesa @ 1280x800 or nv)

Soner Tari-2
In reply to this post by Ted Unangst-2
On Sat, 2009-12-05 at 17:08 -0500, Ted Unangst wrote:

> On Sat, Dec 5, 2009 at 4:09 PM, Soner Tari <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > On Sat, 2009-12-05 at 21:30 +0100, Matthieu Herrb wrote:
> >> Making hardware is a lot more difficult than writing software. So it takes
> >> more resources and more skills.
> >
> > Sorry Matthieu, but I have to say that this is utter bullshit, and I
> > believe such underestimation is the underlying reason that many software
> > suck.
>
> I think the point is the tools to make software are more readily
> available than the tools to make hardware.  Let's say so you want to
> make a graphics card.  Let's also say that you're only interested in
> playing quake3.  What does it take to party like 1999?  About 150 MHz
> on a 180nm process.  And what does it cost to fab some 180nm chips?
> More than I've ever spent on all the computers I've ever written
> software with.

To read his comments with such meaning, I would have to replace the
words "difficult" and "skills" in his sentences with others.

However, assuming that's really the intended meaning, yes you are right,
investment to produce hardware or semiconductors is very high (so I
cannot do it at home). But that's hardly a concern for venture
capitalists or corporations like IBM, Intel, etc., hence hardly a reason
for the lack of open hardware. (Unless of course the definition of
"open" here is equated to "homemade".)

On the other hand, when I look at open source software, things do not
seem too bright either (although I can do it at home):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usage_share_of_operating_systems

So, I believe the reasons behind these should be searched somewhere else
other than skills or costs.

(Looking at other posts in this thread, I regret that I've ever sent my
first reply. So, back to silent mode again...)

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Re: Open Source hardware (Re: can't get vesa @ 1280x800 or nv)

FRLinux-2
In reply to this post by rhubbell@ihubbell.com
On Sat, Dec 5, 2009 at 10:59 PM, rhubbell <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Why did I say that? Let's take a poll on this list of how many people are
> using one of those cards? Or any list, anywhere.
>
> I have not contributed to it in anyway. But why is that relevant? Can you
> explain? And how did you contribute?

Man, you need to learn who are the people you talk to. That is not
something we can do for you. Learn to respect people when posting.
Ignorance is bliss but in your case, it makes you look fairly bad
(notice i didn't use any insult or swearing :)

Steph

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Re: Open Source hardware (Re: can't get vesa @ 1280x800 or nv)

William Boshuck
In reply to this post by Soner Tari-2
On Sun, Dec 06, 2009 at 11:11:07AM +0200, Soner Tari wrote:

> On Sat, 2009-12-05 at 17:08 -0500, Ted Unangst wrote:
> > On Sat, Dec 5, 2009 at 4:09 PM, Soner Tari <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > > On Sat, 2009-12-05 at 21:30 +0100, Matthieu Herrb wrote:
> > >> Making hardware is a lot more difficult than writing software. So it takes
> > >> more resources and more skills.
> > >
> > > Sorry Matthieu, but I have to say that this is utter bullshit, and I
> > > believe such underestimation is the underlying reason that many software
> > > suck.
> >
> > I think the point is the tools to make software are more readily
> > available than the tools to make hardware.  Let's say so you want to
> > make a graphics card.  Let's also say that you're only interested in
> > playing quake3.  What does it take to party like 1999?  About 150 MHz
> > on a 180nm process.  And what does it cost to fab some 180nm chips?
> > More than I've ever spent on all the computers I've ever written
> > software with.
>
> To read his comments with such meaning, I would have to replace the
> words "difficult" and "skills" in his sentences with others.

Since your reply implicitly replaced "making" with "designing",
that shouldn't prove to much of a stretch.

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Re: Open Source hardware (Re: can't get vesa @ 1280x800 or nv)

Soner Tari-2
On Sun, 2009-12-06 at 10:16 -0500, William Boshuck wrote:
> Since your reply implicitly replaced "making" with "designing",
> that shouldn't prove to much of a stretch.

My reply explicitly emphasizes the difficulty in "designing" software,
which is part of "writing" it. Otherwise, I mention I am against
comparing "making" hardware with "writing" software (i.e. comparing
apples with oranges). This is completely OT now anyway.

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Re: Open Source hardware (Re: can't get vesa @ 1280x800 or nv)

Andrew Dyer
In reply to this post by Matthieu Herrb-5
On Sat, Dec 5, 2009 at 2:30 PM, Matthieu Herrb <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Sat, Dec 5, 2009 at 9:02 PM, rhubbell <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> Yes, I'd like to see some pointers also.  I recall that there was
>> discussion (might've been on linux kernel) a while ago about a
>> partially-open video card.  Why doesn't the community support that?
>
> You mean http://www.opengraphics.org ?
> What makes you say that? How did *you* contribute?
>
>> I recall that price was a factor in lack of uptake.
>> Seems to me that opensource is farsical if it runs on closesource
hardware.

>> So where's the opensource hardware? Seems like the new world order isn't
>> going to allow that. The trend in hardware looks like a race to keep
>> control.  Seems like we are going to be paying for the hardware but not
>> owning; instead leasing.
>>
>> Or am I behind the times and there's salvation from some beneficent
>> hardware maker in Taiwan?
>
> Making hardware is a lot more difficult than writing software. So it takes
> more resources and more skills. This is probably why there aren't so
> many of them.

A graphics card is about both, and I don't think hardware is that
'hard' (if I can do it it must be easy :-).

The real barriers to entry are economic.  A mask set for a current
generation ASIC (say 45nm) is somewhere upwards of one million US $.
(http://www.eetimes.com/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=198900081)  so
unless you have terrific volumes to amortize over, custom chips are
pretty much out of play.  You could see if you can swing a deal with
someone to roll the mask costs into the piece price, but you'll have
to convince them that you'll run enough pieces to make it worth their
while.  In general the specialized design software needed to make a
design that will work costs a similar amount (digital and analog
simulators, logic synthesis, Design rule checkers, place and route,
design for test, etc).

That pretty much leaves you in the FPGA world like the opengraphics
people are.  You can use the FPGA vendor's volumes to get access to
leading edge process technology, but are stuck with their
architecture.  Usually the premium FPGAs start at around $100 ea. and
go up into the $1000 range, so you end up looking at the 'value' parts
(spartan and cyclone for brand X and brand A) to keep costs down which
limits what you can do even more.  The one nice thing about FPGA is
that the vendors usually make the parts for a long time, so
availability and control is good.

12