News From HiFn

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News From HiFn

J.C. Roberts-2
Howdy misc@

Though I stayed out of the last public fiasco regarding HiFn here on the
misc@ list, I privately contacted the people I know at the company. I
didn't reply just to Hank Cohen who posted here on misc@ but I also
included the VP of engineering (Russ Dietz), the CEO (Chris Kebner) and
the VP of marketing (Tom Moore).

I just got a call this afternoon from Tom Moore to let me know they've
set up an anon FTP site (no registration) with their documentation:

ftp://ftp.hifn.com

This should take care of any of the long standing issues OpenBSD has had
with the HiFn's procedures for releasing documentation.

I was told HiFn is still working on their new ftp site, so I'm not sure
how complete it is at the moment but at least we know there's a start
and they are willing to continue working on it.

Please check out the readme on the FTP. Basically it says if you wish to
automatically get the HiFn updates/errata/notifications, you should
probably sign up for the HiFn "extranet" thing. You don't have to but
you can if you want.

Kind Regards,
JCR


--
Free, Open Source CAD, CAM and EDA Tools
http://www.DesignTools.org

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Re: News From HiFn

marrandy (Bugzilla)
On Thursday 29 June 2006 18:45, you wrote:

> Howdy misc@
>
> Though I stayed out of the last public fiasco regarding HiFn here on the
> misc@ list, I privately contacted the people I know at the company. I
> didn't reply just to Hank Cohen who posted here on misc@ but I also
> included the VP of engineering (Russ Dietz), the CEO (Chris Kebner) and
> the VP of marketing (Tom Moore).
>
> I just got a call this afternoon from Tom Moore to let me know they've
> set up an anon FTP site (no registration) with their documentation:
>
> ftp://ftp.hifn.com


When I click on the .txt or .doc files, it throws up a username/password
requester.

Perhaps you can tell them about that.
--
Regards...Martin

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Re: News From HiFn

Jamie Gavahan
On 6/29/06, marrandy <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Thursday 29 June 2006 18:45, you wrote:
> > Howdy misc@
> >
> > Though I stayed out of the last public fiasco regarding HiFn here on the
> > misc@ list, I privately contacted the people I know at the company. I
> > didn't reply just to Hank Cohen who posted here on misc@ but I also
> > included the VP of engineering (Russ Dietz), the CEO (Chris Kebner) and
> > the VP of marketing (Tom Moore).
> >
> > I just got a call this afternoon from Tom Moore to let me know they've
> > set up an anon FTP site (no registration) with their documentation:
> >
> > ftp://ftp.hifn.com
>
>
> When I click on the .txt or .doc files, it throws up a username/password
> requester.
>
> Perhaps you can tell them about that.

I downloaded the files just fine, perhaps it's an issue with how your ftp client
authenticates.

-Jamie

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Re: News From HiFn

Tobias Ulmer
In reply to this post by marrandy (Bugzilla)
On Thu, Jun 29, 2006 at 07:57:41PM -0400, marrandy wrote:

> On Thursday 29 June 2006 18:45, you wrote:
> > Howdy misc@
> >
> > Though I stayed out of the last public fiasco regarding HiFn here on the
> > misc@ list, I privately contacted the people I know at the company. I
> > didn't reply just to Hank Cohen who posted here on misc@ but I also
> > included the VP of engineering (Russ Dietz), the CEO (Chris Kebner) and
> > the VP of marketing (Tom Moore).
> >
> > I just got a call this afternoon from Tom Moore to let me know they've
> > set up an anon FTP site (no registration) with their documentation:
> >
> > ftp://ftp.hifn.com
>
>
> When I click on the .txt or .doc files, it throws up a username/password
> requester.
>
> Perhaps you can tell them about that.
> --
> Regards...Martin
>
>

I can download stuff just fine with ftp -a ftp.hifn.com

Probably your anonymous password didn't include a '@' sign? Some ftp
servers reject these.

Tobias

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Re: News From HiFn

J.C. Roberts-2
On Fri, 30 Jun 2006 02:15:17 +0200, Tobias Ulmer <[hidden email]>
wrote:

>On Thu, Jun 29, 2006 at 07:57:41PM -0400, marrandy wrote:
>> On Thursday 29 June 2006 18:45, you wrote:
>>
>> When I click on the .txt or .doc files, it throws up a username/password
>> requester.
>>
>> Perhaps you can tell them about that.
>> --
>> Regards...Martin
>>
>>
>
>I can download stuff just fine with ftp -a ftp.hifn.com
>
>Probably your anonymous password didn't include a '@' sign? Some ftp
>servers reject these.
>
>Tobias

Most all anon FTP servers ask for an email address as the password for
the "anonymous" account and many check the password input to make sure
it's a valid email format, namely including an @ and a dot.

JCR


--
Free, Open Source CAD, CAM and EDA Tools
http://www.DesignTools.org

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Re: News From HiFn

marrandy (Bugzilla)
On Thursday 29 June 2006 20:35, you wrote:

> On Fri, 30 Jun 2006 02:15:17 +0200, Tobias Ulmer <[hidden email]>
>
> wrote:
> >On Thu, Jun 29, 2006 at 07:57:41PM -0400, marrandy wrote:
> >> On Thursday 29 June 2006 18:45, you wrote:
> >>
> >> When I click on the .txt or .doc files, it throws up a username/password
> >> requester.
> >>
> >> Perhaps you can tell them about that.
> >> --
> >> Regards...Martin
> >
> >I can download stuff just fine with ftp -a ftp.hifn.com
> >
> >Probably your anonymous password didn't include a '@' sign? Some ftp
> >servers reject these.
> >
> >Tobias
>
> Most all anon FTP servers ask for an email address as the password for
> the "anonymous" account and many check the password input to make sure
> it's a valid email format, namely including an @ and a dot.
>
> JCR


I was using firefox and also tried konqueror.

Just tried it again and it worked fine in both browsers.

???

Don't know what changed.


--
Regards...Martin

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Re: News From HiFn

Chris Kuethe
On 6/29/06, marrandy <[hidden email]> wrote:
> I was using firefox and also tried konqueror.
>
> Just tried it again and it worked fine in both browsers.
>
> ???
>
> Don't know what changed.

Bouncing off a max-anon-users limit of some kind?

CK

--
GDB has a 'break' feature; why doesn't it have 'fix' too?

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Re: News From HiFn

Nick Guenther
In reply to this post by J.C. Roberts-2
On 6/29/06, J.C. Roberts <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Howdy misc@
>
> Though I stayed out of the last public fiasco regarding HiFn here on the
> misc@ list, I privately contacted the people I know at the company. I
> didn't reply just to Hank Cohen who posted here on misc@ but I also
> included the VP of engineering (Russ Dietz), the CEO (Chris Kebner) and
> the VP of marketing (Tom Moore).
>
> I just got a call this afternoon from Tom Moore to let me know they've
> set up an anon FTP site (no registration) with their documentation:
>
> ftp://ftp.hifn.com
>
> This should take care of any of the long standing issues OpenBSD has had
> with the HiFn's procedures for releasing documentation.
>
> I was told HiFn is still working on their new ftp site, so I'm not sure
> how complete it is at the moment but at least we know there's a start
> and they are willing to continue working on it.
>
> Please check out the readme on the FTP. Basically it says if you wish to
> automatically get the HiFn updates/errata/notifications, you should
> probably sign up for the HiFn "extranet" thing. You don't have to but
> you can if you want.

Since no one else has said it yet.... good job!

That was actually surprisingly quick. Go go media fiascos.

-Nick

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Re: News From HiFn

Christian Pedaschus
Nick Guenther wrote:

> Since no one else has said it yet.... good job!
>
> That was actually surprisingly quick. Go go media fiascos.
>
> -Nick
>
Very good decision (finally) from HiFn and nice done JCR.
Which vendor is next? :)

Greets, Chris

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Re: News From HiFn

Hannah Schroeter
In reply to this post by J.C. Roberts-2
Hi!

On Thu, Jun 29, 2006 at 03:45:55PM -0700, J.C. Roberts wrote:
>[...]

>I just got a call this afternoon from Tom Moore to let me know they've
>set up an anon FTP site (no registration) with their documentation:

>ftp://ftp.hifn.com

Kudoes to you for your initiative and to HiFn for their decision.

Kind regards,

Hannah.

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Re: News From HiFn

Breen Ouellette
In reply to this post by J.C. Roberts-2
J.C. Roberts wrote:
> This should take care of any of the long standing issues OpenBSD has had
> with the HiFn's procedures for releasing documentation.

This is good news. Thanks for your contribution!

To all the nay-sayers out there: this proves that sometimes companies do
'get' their customers' wishes. Consumer action does work - as long as
the consumer actually gets involved. While you might not always be able
to get the attention of companies through consumer action, apathetically
accepting the status quo guarantees that you never will.

Thanks to everyone who got involved - you proved that "somewhat open" is
no more acceptable than "not at all open" by bringing Hifn on board.

Breeno

PS - Someone who participates in editing vendorwatch.org might want to
update the Hifn status page.

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Re: News From HiFn

jared r r spiegel
In reply to this post by J.C. Roberts-2
On Thu, Jun 29, 2006 at 03:45:55PM -0700, J.C. Roberts wrote:
>
> I just got a call this afternoon from Tom Moore to let me know they've
> set up an anon FTP site (no registration) with their documentation:

  hi5.  nicely done.

> Please check out the readme on the FTP. Basically it says if you wish to
> automatically get the HiFn updates/errata/notifications, you should
> probably sign up for the HiFn "extranet" thing. You don't have to but
> you can if you want.

  i am hoping this works out to be really exactly what was desired.
  in reading the software-api-tkip-applicationnote.pdf, it has a clause
  that says:

===
Hifn Confidential

  If you have signed a Hifn Confidential Disclosure Agreement that includes
  this document as part of its subject matter, please use this document
  in accordance with the terms of the agreement.  If not, please destroy
  this document.
===

  would it seem that this may just be the pdf contents being still out
  of synch with the spirit of open/anonymous documentation availability,
  or...

  maybe i should destroy it for now... ?

--

  jared

[ openbsd 3.9-current GENERIC ( may  1 ) // i386 ]

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Re: News From HiFn

Nick Guenther
In reply to this post by Breen Ouellette
On 6/30/06, Breen Ouellette <[hidden email]> wrote:

> J.C. Roberts wrote:
> > This should take care of any of the long standing issues OpenBSD has had
> > with the HiFn's procedures for releasing documentation.
>
> This is good news. Thanks for your contribution!
>
> To all the nay-sayers out there: this proves that sometimes companies do
> 'get' their customers' wishes. Consumer action does work - as long as
> the consumer actually gets involved. While you might not always be able
> to get the attention of companies through consumer action, apathetically
> accepting the status quo guarantees that you never will.
>
> Thanks to everyone who got involved - you proved that "somewhat open" is
> no more acceptable than "not at all open" by bringing Hifn on board.
>
> Breeno
>
> PS - Someone who participates in editing vendorwatch.org might want to
> update the Hifn status page.

Done, but I've left their ranking as "unfriendly" on the front page
because they've given no apology and they still seem to be shady.

If someone could add the links to the slashdot/newsforge/whereverelse
stories that would be helpful though.

-Nick

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Re: News From HiFn

Chris Cappuccio
Nick Guenther [[hidden email]] wrote:
>
> Done, but I've left their ranking as "unfriendly" on the front page
> because they've given no apology and they still seem to be shady.
>

No worries, I just got word that they'll send a prostitute over to your house
to fix that right up.

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Re: News From HiFn

J.C. Roberts-2
In reply to this post by Nick Guenther
On Fri, 30 Jun 2006 14:27:53 -0400, "Nick Guenther" <[hidden email]>
wrote:

>On 6/30/06, Breen Ouellette <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> J.C. Roberts wrote:
>> > This should take care of any of the long standing issues OpenBSD has had
>> > with the HiFn's procedures for releasing documentation.
>>
>> This is good news. Thanks for your contribution!
>>
>> To all the nay-sayers out there: this proves that sometimes companies do
>> 'get' their customers' wishes. Consumer action does work - as long as
>> the consumer actually gets involved. While you might not always be able
>> to get the attention of companies through consumer action, apathetically
>> accepting the status quo guarantees that you never will.
>>
>> Thanks to everyone who got involved - you proved that "somewhat open" is
>> no more acceptable than "not at all open" by bringing Hifn on board.
>>
>> Breeno
>>
>> PS - Someone who participates in editing vendorwatch.org might want to
>> update the Hifn status page.
>
>Done, but I've left their ranking as "unfriendly" on the front page
>because they've given no apology and they still seem to be shady.
>
>If someone could add the links to the slashdot/newsforge/whereverelse
>stories that would be helpful though.
>
>-Nick

Hi Nick,

Sure, with the help of many people, we were able to get a policy change
made to open documentation at HiFn. It was not a solo effort, so I
should not get all the credit. I just happened to be the person the
vendor contacted regarding their changes.

I'd like to request that you change the HiFn status to at least
"Somewhat Friendly" on the www.vendorwatch.org site. Yes, I have created
an account on the site and may be able to make the change myself, but
due to my involvement, I can't be considered unbiased and should not
editing the status.

I've also submitted stories about the change of policy at HiFn to both
slashdot and undeadly, but obviously, I have no control over whether or
not they ever get published.

I'm sure many may wonder why I would try to help out HiFn but
personally, I think it's just a matter of being fair. Just as a bad
policy should be condemned, I think a change to a good policy should be
celebrated.

You may want to note that opinions differ around here and not everyone
involved with the project agrees with the way I see it but personally,
I'd rather let water under the bridge be past and move on to trying to
solve the next problem.

Kind Regards,
JCR


--
Free, Open Source CAD, CAM and EDA Tools
http://www.DesignTools.org

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Re: News From HiFn

Benjamin Collins
In reply to this post by Nick Guenther
On Fri, Jun 30, 2006 at 02:27:53PM -0400, Nick Guenther wrote:
> On 6/30/06, Breen Ouellette <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >PS - Someone who participates in editing vendorwatch.org might want to
> >update the Hifn status page.
>
> Done, but I've left their ranking as "unfriendly" on the front page
> because they've given no apology and they still seem to be shady.
>
> If someone could add the links to the slashdot/newsforge/whereverelse
> stories that would be helpful though.

It seems to me that if people are going to make a huge fuss about a
company's documentation not being open enough or not available or what
have you, and then following the fuss, they make their documentation
available, they should at a minimum be considered "somewhat friendly".
Wasn't the whole point of all the back-and-forth about the
documentation?  Now that we can get the docs, who cares if they don't
apologize?  Do businesses now have to be careful not to hurt our
feelings in order to be considered "friendly"?  Do we want apologies
and proof of non-shadiness, or do we want documentation to be made
available?

This is also not to mention that being pig-headed about the matter is
a great way to prevent other companies from complying with requests
for documentation - if a business thinks we're going to demand it kiss
our collective ass before we give it credit for cooperating, they're
simply not going to cooperate.

P.S. - I just read J.C.'s reply along these lines, and this is
intended to be in the same vein.

bc
--
Benjamin Collins <[hidden email]>

[demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type application/pgp-signature]

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Re: News From HiFn

Daniel Ouellet
In reply to this post by J.C. Roberts-2
J.C. Roberts wrote:

> On Fri, 30 Jun 2006 14:27:53 -0400, "Nick Guenther" <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
>> On 6/30/06, Breen Ouellette <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> J.C. Roberts wrote:
>>>> This should take care of any of the long standing issues OpenBSD has had
>>>> with the HiFn's procedures for releasing documentation.
>>> This is good news. Thanks for your contribution!
>>>
>>> To all the nay-sayers out there: this proves that sometimes companies do
>>> 'get' their customers' wishes. Consumer action does work - as long as
>>> the consumer actually gets involved. While you might not always be able
>>> to get the attention of companies through consumer action, apathetically
>>> accepting the status quo guarantees that you never will.
>>>
>>> Thanks to everyone who got involved - you proved that "somewhat open" is
>>> no more acceptable than "not at all open" by bringing Hifn on board.
>>>
>>> Breeno
>>>
>>> PS - Someone who participates in editing vendorwatch.org might want to
>>> update the Hifn status page.
>> Done, but I've left their ranking as "unfriendly" on the front page
>> because they've given no apology and they still seem to be shady.
>>
>> If someone could add the links to the slashdot/newsforge/whereverelse
>> stories that would be helpful though.
>>
>> -Nick
>
> Hi Nick,
>
> Sure, with the help of many people, we were able to get a policy change
> made to open documentation at HiFn. It was not a solo effort, so I
> should not get all the credit. I just happened to be the person the
> vendor contacted regarding their changes.

But you sure deserve good credit regardless how it was done. You finally
make it possible. Many have express their point of view, I sure did too.
To see the end results is a nice turn of event and does show that in the
end, may be it took a long time, but HiFn finally got the point and does
see the benefit for them as well as us.

> I'd like to request that you change the HiFn status to at least
> "Somewhat Friendly" on the www.vendorwatch.org site. Yes, I have created
> an account on the site and may be able to make the change myself, but
> due to my involvement, I can't be considered unbiased and should not
> editing the status.
>
> I've also submitted stories about the change of policy at HiFn to both
> slashdot and undeadly, but obviously, I have no control over whether or
> not they ever get published.
>
> I'm sure many may wonder why I would try to help out HiFn but
> personally, I think it's just a matter of being fair. Just as a bad
> policy should be condemned, I think a change to a good policy should be
> celebrated.

Agreed as well. It's just fair to see them presented as it is. "Somewhat
Friendly" is really where they are now, so would be fair to do that.

> You may want to note that opinions differ around here and not everyone
> involved with the project agrees with the way I see it but personally,
> I'd rather let water under the bridge be past and move on to trying to
> solve the next problem.

I am sure there is many, but we all share the same goal I think. Getting
good documentations is the end goal, however we get there.

> Kind Regards,
> JCR

Thanks for your positive involvements!

Daniel.

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Re: News From HiFn

Kenny Mann
Daniel Ouellet wrote:
> [snipp'ed]
> Agreed as well. It's just fair to see them presented as it is.
> "Somewhat Friendly" is really where they are now, so would be fair to
> do that.

Changed.
Reference the hifn article as to why (which was updated by the time I
got there) their status was upgraded.


Kenny

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Re: News From HiFn

Theo de Raadt
In reply to this post by Benjamin Collins
> It seems to me that if people are going to make a huge fuss about a
> company's documentation not being open enough or not available or what
> have you, and then following the fuss, they make their documentation
> available, they should at a minimum be considered "somewhat friendly".

I think you are right.  If someone commits a crime, and then promises
to never do it again, we should forgive them.

I will ask this honestly:

Why should we bleed our little hearts over a company who acted like
assholes towards us for years, and only changed their policy due to
public pressure?

To make ourselves feel better?  I think it is pointless.  They still
did not apologize.

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Re: News From HiFn

Darrin Chandler
On Fri, Jun 30, 2006 at 07:11:50PM -0600, Theo de Raadt wrote:

> I think you are right.  If someone commits a crime, and then promises
> to never do it again, we should forgive them.
>
> I will ask this honestly:
>
> Why should we bleed our little hearts over a company who acted like
> assholes towards us for years, and only changed their policy due to
> public pressure?
>
> To make ourselves feel better?  I think it is pointless.  They still
> did not apologize.

Ok, so there's no need to fawn over them for doing what they should have
done before. I'd be nice to have an apology AND the docs. Given the
choice of one or the other, it's better to have the docs. And who knows,
maybe there will be real policy shift for now and the future with Hifn.
I'm not holding my breath, but stranger things have happened.

--
Darrin Chandler            |  Phoenix BSD Users Group
[hidden email]   |  http://bsd.phoenix.az.us/
http://www.stilyagin.com/  |

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