Need an advice: Raspberry Pi3 B+ or Pine64 ROCK64

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Need an advice: Raspberry Pi3 B+ or Pine64 ROCK64

C. L. Martinez
Hi all,

  I am considering to buy an ARM based device to use it with OpenBSD as
a personal/portable firewall, IDS and Tor gateway.

  My only requirements are:

  a/ OpenBSD well hardware's supported
  b/ Best network throughput

  It seems Raspberry 3 B+ maybe the best option, but I am not pretty sure.

  Any advice?

--
Greetings,
C. L. Martinez

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Re: Need an advice: Raspberry Pi3 B+ or Pine64 ROCK64

Alfredo Vogel
Hi hola,
The raspi is fiddly for installing openbsd. One needs a special usb cable to install obsd because there is no driver for the sdcard booting device!
Regards
Alfredo
On 26 Aug 2018, 10:30 +0100, Carlos López <[hidden email]>, wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> I am considering to buy an ARM based device to use it with OpenBSD as
> a personal/portable firewall, IDS and Tor gateway.
>
> My only requirements are:
>
> a/ OpenBSD well hardware's supported
> b/ Best network throughput
>
> It seems Raspberry 3 B+ maybe the best option, but I am not pretty sure.
>
> Any advice?
>
> --
> Greetings,
> C. L. Martinez
>
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Re: Need an advice: Raspberry Pi3 B+ or Pine64 ROCK64

Joel Wirāmu Pauling
netboot works fine. However almost all of the Arm platforms including
the Rpi3 make terrible gateways and in general l3 packet path
machines.

I have a bunch of various SBC and they all suck pretty bad for network
tasks. Fine for random server tasks but don't put them in your network
path unless you like artificial bottlenecks.

The Machiattobin and/or Espressobin platforms are probably the best
for network appliance usage. I haven't got one to see if Openbsd works
on them at all tho.


On 26 August 2018 at 21:33, Alfredo “Fred” Vogel <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi hola,
> The raspi is fiddly for installing openbsd. One needs a special usb cable to install obsd because there is no driver for the sdcard booting device!
> Regards
> Alfredo
> On 26 Aug 2018, 10:30 +0100, Carlos López <[hidden email]>, wrote:
>> Hi all,
>>
>> I am considering to buy an ARM based device to use it with OpenBSD as
>> a personal/portable firewall, IDS and Tor gateway.
>>
>> My only requirements are:
>>
>> a/ OpenBSD well hardware's supported
>> b/ Best network throughput
>>
>> It seems Raspberry 3 B+ maybe the best option, but I am not pretty sure.
>>
>> Any advice?
>>
>> --
>> Greetings,
>> C. L. Martinez
>>

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Re: Need an advice: Raspberry Pi3 B+ or Pine64 ROCK64

C. L. Martinez


On 26/08/2018 11:46, Joel Wirāmu Pauling wrote:

> netboot works fine. However almost all of the Arm platforms including
> the Rpi3 make terrible gateways and in general l3 packet path
> machines.
>
> I have a bunch of various SBC and they all suck pretty bad for network
> tasks. Fine for random server tasks but don't put them in your network
> path unless you like artificial bottlenecks.
>
> The Machiattobin and/or Espressobin platforms are probably the best
> for network appliance usage. I haven't got one to see if Openbsd works
> on them at all tho.
>
>

Uhmm ... Interesting point Joel ... Searching both SBC, maybe
Espressobin is best option than Machiattobin ...

Has anyone tried any of them?

Greetings,
C. L. Martinez

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Re: Need an advice: Raspberry Pi3 B+ or Pine64 ROCK64

Stuart Henderson
On 2018-08-26, Carlos López <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
>
> On 26/08/2018 11:46, Joel Wirāmu Pauling wrote:
>> netboot works fine. However almost all of the Arm platforms including
>> the Rpi3 make terrible gateways and in general l3 packet path
>> machines.
>>
>> I have a bunch of various SBC and they all suck pretty bad for network
>> tasks. Fine for random server tasks but don't put them in your network
>> path unless you like artificial bottlenecks.
>>
>> The Machiattobin and/or Espressobin platforms are probably the best
>> for network appliance usage. I haven't got one to see if Openbsd works
>> on them at all tho.
>>
>>
>
> Uhmm ... Interesting point Joel ... Searching both SBC, maybe
> Espressobin is best option than Machiattobin ...
>
> Has anyone tried any of them?

The MACCHIATObin is listed on arm64.html as having some support, the
ESPRESSObin isn't.

If ARM isn't an absolute requirement, I think one of the smaller Octeon
machines (probably EdgeRouter Lite or USG) is likely to be a better choice
for your intended use, and may also be easier to buy locally than some of
the ARM development platforms. https://www.openbsd.org/octeon.html


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Re: Need an advice: Raspberry Pi3 B+ or Pine64 ROCK64

Joel Wirāmu Pauling
Still IME best bang for buck is n3160 ATOM based mini-pc's there are
several vendors (Jetway/Qotom) and you can get an AES-NI capable 4
core machine with dual NICs that will do 5Gbit Duplex on the nose for
less than 90$ USD.

I know intel isn't the flavour of the month, but these machines lack
Management Engine or SMT - which at least makes them slightly less
dire than more beefy SoC's from Chipzilla.

On 26 August 2018 at 23:00, Stuart Henderson <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 2018-08-26, Carlos López <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>
>> On 26/08/2018 11:46, Joel Wirāmu Pauling wrote:
>>> netboot works fine. However almost all of the Arm platforms including
>>> the Rpi3 make terrible gateways and in general l3 packet path
>>> machines.
>>>
>>> I have a bunch of various SBC and they all suck pretty bad for network
>>> tasks. Fine for random server tasks but don't put them in your network
>>> path unless you like artificial bottlenecks.
>>>
>>> The Machiattobin and/or Espressobin platforms are probably the best
>>> for network appliance usage. I haven't got one to see if Openbsd works
>>> on them at all tho.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Uhmm ... Interesting point Joel ... Searching both SBC, maybe
>> Espressobin is best option than Machiattobin ...
>>
>> Has anyone tried any of them?
>
> The MACCHIATObin is listed on arm64.html as having some support, the
> ESPRESSObin isn't.
>
> If ARM isn't an absolute requirement, I think one of the smaller Octeon
> machines (probably EdgeRouter Lite or USG) is likely to be a better choice
> for your intended use, and may also be easier to buy locally than some of
> the ARM development platforms. https://www.openbsd.org/octeon.html
>
>

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Re: Need an advice: Raspberry Pi3 B+ or Pine64 ROCK64

Mohamed Fouad
In reply to this post by C. L. Martinez
Hi Carlos, i have a similar requirement and i am considering testing a
banana pi router at this moment.

On Sun, 26 Aug 2018, 11:30 am Carlos López, <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi all,
>
>   I am considering to buy an ARM based device to use it with OpenBSD as
> a personal/portable firewall, IDS and Tor gateway.
>
>   My only requirements are:
>
>   a/ OpenBSD well hardware's supported
>   b/ Best network throughput
>
>   It seems Raspberry 3 B+ maybe the best option, but I am not pretty sure.
>
>   Any advice?
>
> --
> Greetings,
> C. L. Martinez
>
>
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Re: Need an advice: Raspberry Pi3 B+ or Pine64 ROCK64

Patrick Wildt-3
In reply to this post by Stuart Henderson
On Sun, Aug 26, 2018 at 11:00:26AM +0000, Stuart Henderson wrote:

> On 2018-08-26, Carlos López <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> >
> > On 26/08/2018 11:46, Joel Wirāmu Pauling wrote:
> >> netboot works fine. However almost all of the Arm platforms including
> >> the Rpi3 make terrible gateways and in general l3 packet path
> >> machines.
> >>
> >> I have a bunch of various SBC and they all suck pretty bad for network
> >> tasks. Fine for random server tasks but don't put them in your network
> >> path unless you like artificial bottlenecks.
> >>
> >> The Machiattobin and/or Espressobin platforms are probably the best
> >> for network appliance usage. I haven't got one to see if Openbsd works
> >> on them at all tho.
> >>
> >>
> >
> > Uhmm ... Interesting point Joel ... Searching both SBC, maybe
> > Espressobin is best option than Machiattobin ...
> >
> > Has anyone tried any of them?
>
> The MACCHIATObin is listed on arm64.html as having some support, the
> ESPRESSObin isn't.

On the MacchiatoBin we don't support the onboard ethernet yet.  On the
EspressoBin we do support the ethernet controller, but the connected
switch is a mess that I don't dare to support.  Got other stuff to do.
Though I am working on partial EspressoBin support for the upcoming
Turris Mox.

That said, if 32-bit ARM is OK look at the Clearfog Base.  If you're
willing to spend a bit more, SolidRun has nice 64-bit machines.  But
on those we still need to write the ethernet driver.

Patrick

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Re: Need an advice: Raspberry Pi3 B+ or Pine64 ROCK64

David Bern
On Sun, 26 Aug 2018 15:52:48 +0200
Patrick Wildt <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On the MacchiatoBin we don't support the onboard ethernet yet.  On the
> EspressoBin we do support the ethernet controller, but the connected
> switch is a mess that I don't dare to support.  Got other stuff to do.
> Though I am working on partial EspressoBin support for the upcoming
> Turris Mox.

Interesting. I was about to place an order on a MacchiatoBin.
What is biggest reason to why the ethernet is not supported yet?

/David

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Re: Need an advice: Raspberry Pi3 B+ or Pine64 ROCK64

Carlos Cardenas
On Sun, Aug 26, 2018 at 05:50:02PM +0200, David Bern wrote:

> On Sun, 26 Aug 2018 15:52:48 +0200
> Patrick Wildt <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > On the MacchiatoBin we don't support the onboard ethernet yet.  On the
> > EspressoBin we do support the ethernet controller, but the connected
> > switch is a mess that I don't dare to support.  Got other stuff to do.
> > Though I am working on partial EspressoBin support for the upcoming
> > Turris Mox.
>
> Interesting. I was about to place an order on a MacchiatoBin.
> What is biggest reason to why the ethernet is not supported yet?
>

We were waiting on you to write it.

If you can obtain the design spec for the Armada7k8k board (which mcbin
is) from Marvell, you should be able to crank out the NIC driver for it.

Sarcasm aside, patches are welcome.

That said, mcbin with either a usb NIC or if you need 10G, drop in an
Intel x520 in there and you're set.

+--+
Carlos

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Re: Need an advice: Raspberry Pi3 B+ or Pine64 ROCK64

David Bern
On Sun, 26 Aug 2018 11:30:15 -0700
Carlos Cardenas <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Sun, Aug 26, 2018 at 05:50:02PM +0200, David Bern wrote:
> > On Sun, 26 Aug 2018 15:52:48 +0200
> > Patrick Wildt <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >  
> > > On the MacchiatoBin we don't support the onboard ethernet yet.  On the
> > > EspressoBin we do support the ethernet controller, but the connected
> > > switch is a mess that I don't dare to support.  Got other stuff to do.
> > > Though I am working on partial EspressoBin support for the upcoming
> > > Turris Mox.  
> >
> > Interesting. I was about to place an order on a MacchiatoBin.
> > What is biggest reason to why the ethernet is not supported yet?
> >  
>
> We were waiting on you to write it.
>
> If you can obtain the design spec for the Armada7k8k board (which mcbin
> is) from Marvell, you should be able to crank out the NIC driver for it.
>
> Sarcasm aside, patches are welcome.
>
> That said, mcbin with either a usb NIC or if you need 10G, drop in an
> Intel x520 in there and you're set.
>
> +--+
> Carlos

Check, yea sure.

Have anyone tried to contact Marvell previously in this matter?
Would be interesting to look at the datasheet, if anyone else is working on
the driver it would be nice hear what the status is.
/David

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Re: Need an advice: Raspberry Pi3 B+ or Pine64 ROCK64

Karel Gardas
In reply to this post by Patrick Wildt-3
On Sun, 26 Aug 2018 15:52:48 +0200
Patrick Wildt <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On the MacchiatoBin we don't support the onboard ethernet yet.  On the
> EspressoBin we do support the ethernet controller, but the connected
> switch is a mess that I don't dare to support.  Got other stuff to do.
> Though I am working on partial EspressoBin support for the upcoming
> Turris Mox.

What do you plan to support on Mox? Just basic module? If so, do you plan to support USB too so one can at least connect second NIC over USB? I see CZ.NIC does not make module with just another NIC and if you claim switch is a mess I'm curious how to make from this a router with >1NIC.

Thanks!
Karel

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Re: Need an advice: Raspberry Pi3 B+ or Pine64 ROCK64

Joseph Mayer
In reply to this post by Joel Wirāmu Pauling
On August 26, 2018 3:16 PM, Joel Wirāmu Pauling <[hidden email]> wrote:
..
> I have a bunch of various SBC and they all suck pretty bad for network
> tasks. Fine for random server tasks but don't put them in your network
> path unless you like artificial bottlenecks.

Please note that the RK3399 (e.g. Pine64 ROCK64) supports a normal PCIe
networking card, and its PCIe bus bandwidth is four PCIe version 2.1
lanes, meaning 4 x 4 gbps = 16gbps = 2GBps.

I have not benchmarked this and do not know how this compares with
Octeon, but it should be decent-to-very-good.

http://opensource.rock-chips.com/images/6/60/Rockchip_RK3399_Datasheet_V1.6-20170301.pdf

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Re: Need an advice: Raspberry Pi3 B+ or Pine64 ROCK64

Joel Wirāmu Pauling
In reply to this post by Karel Gardas
Yeah I got excited about the MachiattoBin when I first saw it - it's
possibly the first non-x86 SOHO router that can actually do 14MPPS
needed for 10G in the home.

BUT

The Copper ethernet situation is problematic, the original design
shares the PCI Bus with the SFP Slots to provide copper 10G option.
however Copper 10G is relatively shite unless you are lucky enough to
have Cat6a/Cat7 run everywhere.

What I really would like to see is the Aquantia 407 Silicon paired
with Dual SFP+ and a Beefy enough SoC to do L3 14MPps. The Aquantia
stuff is the 10GBase-X (802.3bz) auto rate negotiation stuff which
should finally bring faster than 1G networks to the home (and is
pretty much a must for the Wireless AX stuff). I would really like to
test the SoC in the Machiatto to see how and if it can actually
acheive 10G packet rates as it touts. It may be a bunch of 'Fastpath'
offload stuff which isn't actually very useful tbh.




On 27 August 2018 at 23:49, Karel Gardas <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Sun, 26 Aug 2018 15:52:48 +0200
> Patrick Wildt <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> On the MacchiatoBin we don't support the onboard ethernet yet.  On the
>> EspressoBin we do support the ethernet controller, but the connected
>> switch is a mess that I don't dare to support.  Got other stuff to do.
>> Though I am working on partial EspressoBin support for the upcoming
>> Turris Mox.
>
> What do you plan to support on Mox? Just basic module? If so, do you plan to support USB too so one can at least connect second NIC over USB? I see CZ.NIC does not make module with just another NIC and if you claim switch is a mess I'm curious how to make from this a router with >1NIC.
>
> Thanks!
> Karel
>

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Re: Need an advice: Raspberry Pi3 B+ or Pine64 ROCK64

Joel Wirāmu Pauling
In reply to this post by Joseph Mayer
I do actually have an rk3399 (firefly) - like you I also had high hopes for it.

It's still the best out of the Arm boards I've tried, but the lanes
are shared with the GMAC on the SoC so you end up not getting what you
might hope for; you can Sorta get another Gigabit port by using the
USB-C port and a reasonably good adaptor; but latency's are all over
the board when you start to wire in the network over USB NICs.

Sustained duplex Gigabit is mostly achievable. But again for the
price/perfomance the n3160 that currently is my gateway blows it out
of the water. And the firefly was twice as expensive.


On 28 August 2018 at 00:15, Joseph Mayer <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On August 26, 2018 3:16 PM, Joel Wirāmu Pauling <[hidden email]> wrote:
> ..
>> I have a bunch of various SBC and they all suck pretty bad for network
>> tasks. Fine for random server tasks but don't put them in your network
>> path unless you like artificial bottlenecks.
>
> Please note that the RK3399 (e.g. Pine64 ROCK64) supports a normal PCIe
> networking card, and its PCIe bus bandwidth is four PCIe version 2.1
> lanes, meaning 4 x 4 gbps = 16gbps = 2GBps.
>
> I have not benchmarked this and do not know how this compares with
> Octeon, but it should be decent-to-very-good.
>
> http://opensource.rock-chips.com/images/6/60/Rockchip_RK3399_Datasheet_V1.6-20170301.pdf

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Re: Need an advice: Raspberry Pi3 B+ or Pine64 ROCK64

Jon Tabor
In reply to this post by Mohamed Fouad
On Sun, Aug 26, 2018 at 01:33:27PM +0200, Mohamed Fouad wrote:
> Hi Carlos, i have a similar requirement and i am considering testing a
> banana pi router at this moment.
>
>

I'm currently using a Banana Pro as my home router/firewall.  I experienced a
bunch of packet loss on the internal port (dwge).  I'm currently
running both LAN and WAN interfaces via USB dongles (ure and axe
devices that I had around).

It does fine for my needs, but my pipe is only a 50Mbit up/down, which
it handles fine.  

That said, I'm looking at alternatives, simply because I want the Banana
Pro back as a board to tinker with, rather than having it full-time as
necessary device.

--
Jon Tabor
[hidden email]
http://obsolete.site

'There is a saying: There is no such thing as overkill.
 There is only “Open fire!” and “Reloading!”'
― John Ringo, The Hot Gate

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Re: Need an advice: Raspberry Pi3 B+ or Pine64 ROCK64

Aaron-3
In reply to this post by C. L. Martinez
Have you considered any of intel’s atom c2000 or c3000 series SoC? I have openbsd running with several services, multiple vlans and a 500 down 20 up internet connection I can saturate on a c2000 series board

Sent from my iPhone

> On Aug 26, 2018, at 5:26 AM, Carlos López <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Hi all,
>
> I am considering to buy an ARM based device to use it with OpenBSD as a personal/portable firewall, IDS and Tor gateway.
>
> My only requirements are:
>
> a/ OpenBSD well hardware's supported
> b/ Best network throughput
>
> It seems Raspberry 3 B+ maybe the best option, but I am not pretty sure.
>
> Any advice?
>
> --
> Greetings,
> C. L. Martinez
>

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Re: Need an advice: Raspberry Pi3 B+ or Pine64 ROCK64

Joseph Mayer
In reply to this post by Joel Wirāmu Pauling
Joel,

Are you saying you gave up on using the PCIe at all?

There's a 4-lane PCIe connector on the Rock64 right, aren't those
dedicated lanes, and, if they'd somehow be shared with any other
hardware, then you should still have supposedly >90% of the 16gbps
capacity available?

Did you try connecting some multiport 1gbps or 10gbps PCIe NIC?

Geekbench figures indicate that RK3399 and Celeron N3160 should perform
fairly similarly.

https://browser.geekbench.com/v4/cpu/search?q=rk3399
https://browser.geekbench.com/v4/cpu/search?utf8=%E2%9C%93&q=n3160
https://ark.intel.com/products/91831/Intel-Celeron-Processor-N3160-2M-Cache-up-to-2_24-GHz

On August 27, 2018 5:51 PM, Joel Wirāmu Pauling <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I do actually have an rk3399 (firefly) - like you I also had high hopes for it.
>
> It's still the best out of the Arm boards I've tried, but the lanes
> are shared with the GMAC on the SoC so you end up not getting what you
> might hope for; you can Sorta get another Gigabit port by using the
> USB-C port and a reasonably good adaptor; but latency's are all over
> the board when you start to wire in the network over USB NICs.
>
> Sustained duplex Gigabit is mostly achievable. But again for the
> price/perfomance the n3160 that currently is my gateway blows it out
> of the water. And the firefly was twice as expensive.
>
> On 28 August 2018 at 00:15, Joseph Mayer [hidden email] wrote:
..
> > Please note that the RK3399 (e.g. Pine64 ROCK64) supports a normal PCIe
> > networking card, and its PCIe bus bandwidth is four PCIe version 2.1
> > lanes, meaning 4 x 4 gbps = 16gbps = 2GBps.
> > I have not benchmarked this and do not know how this compares with
> > Octeon, but it should be decent-to-very-good.
> > http://opensource.rock-chips.com/images/6/60/Rockchip_RK3399_Datasheet_V1.6-20170301.pdf

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Re: Need an advice: Raspberry Pi3 B+ or Pine64 ROCK64

Jordan Geoghegan
In reply to this post by Jon Tabor


On 08/27/18 09:11, Jon Tabor wrote:

> On Sun, Aug 26, 2018 at 01:33:27PM +0200, Mohamed Fouad wrote:
>> Hi Carlos, i have a similar requirement and i am considering testing a
>> banana pi router at this moment.
>>
>>
> I'm currently using a Banana Pro as my home router/firewall.  I experienced a
> bunch of packet loss on the internal port (dwge).  I'm currently
> running both LAN and WAN interfaces via USB dongles (ure and axe
> devices that I had around).
>
> It does fine for my needs, but my pipe is only a 50Mbit up/down, which
> it handles fine.
>
> That said, I'm looking at alternatives, simply because I want the Banana
> Pro back as a board to tinker with, rather than having it full-time as
> necessary device.
>
You should seriously consider an Edgerouter Lite or Edgerouter4, they
will handle your connection no problem. I run my home network (and
various business/office connections) on Edgerouter Pro's and lites and
they run with zero issues. The octeon cpu are in-order so there are no
spectre/meltdown issues to worry about.

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Re: Need an advice: Raspberry Pi3 B+ or Pine64 ROCK64

Patrick Wildt-3
In reply to this post by Karel Gardas
On Mon, Aug 27, 2018 at 01:49:47PM +0200, Karel Gardas wrote:

> On Sun, 26 Aug 2018 15:52:48 +0200
> Patrick Wildt <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > On the MacchiatoBin we don't support the onboard ethernet yet.  On the
> > EspressoBin we do support the ethernet controller, but the connected
> > switch is a mess that I don't dare to support.  Got other stuff to do.
> > Though I am working on partial EspressoBin support for the upcoming
> > Turris Mox.
>
> What do you plan to support on Mox? Just basic module? If so, do you plan to support USB too so one can at least connect second NIC over USB? I see CZ.NIC does not make module with just another NIC and if you claim switch is a mess I'm curious how to make from this a router with >1NIC.
>
> Thanks!
> Karel

I pledged for the basic module, module B (mPCIe) and module D (SFP).
The SoC actually has 2x Gigabit Ethernet NICs.  I figure they will use
the first NIC for the basic module Ethernet and the other NIC will be
connected to the SGMII line that runs over the connector.  So in my
setup I will have the SFP slot connected to the second NIC.

Their C and E modules provide further ports using a managed switch.
Using that one as a dumb switch should be possible, but dynamically
configuring port groups on the switch is something that we have no
support for at the moment.  You might be able to change u-boot to
initialize the switch with a VLAN tagged mode, but I cannot give any
promises.  If you're interested you can probably tag with ccardenas@,
who'd probably like to support the switch as well.

USB works out of the box.  The Ethernet controller should work as well,
same as the Clearfog.  SD card support is ongoing effort, but shouldn't
be too much work since I got it going on the Armada 8040 as well.  PCIe
hopefully follows afterwards.

Patrick

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