Narcicism?

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Narcicism?

John Tate-8
I think I've found a bug in the OpenBSD crowd. They bug the hell out of me
and my little mistakes.

I am not talking about people who actually have a solution, but I can't
seem to ask anything on this list without parrots coming along picking on
me. I think some people just hang out here because it's the most anal bunch
of hackers ever, in recorded history. What are your experiences?

Is it true that occasionally we attract people who either love bullying or
are just lazy and pretending to be one of the clever?

It just figures some of these people sit on the list, and email you poorly
researched crap with no answers contain.

If you hate a question, it truly doesn't belong, bug me.

But if you just can't answer a question, ignore it.

John Tate.

Note: Yes, it's not my list.

--
www.johntate.org

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Re: Narcicism?

Andres Perera-4
http://johntate.org/fact/johntate

"I now have 7 years of experience in FreeBSD/OpenBSD"

On Thu, Dec 1, 2011 at 2:58 AM, John Tate <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I think I've found a bug in the OpenBSD crowd. They bug the hell out of me
> and my little mistakes.
>
> I am not talking about people who actually have a solution, but I can't
> seem to ask anything on this list without parrots coming along picking on
> me. I think some people just hang out here because it's the most anal bunch
> of hackers ever, in recorded history. What are your experiences?
>
> Is it true that occasionally we attract people who either love bullying or
> are just lazy and pretending to be one of the clever?
>
> It just figures some of these people sit on the list, and email you poorly
> researched crap with no answers contain.
>
> If you hate a question, it truly doesn't belong, bug me.
>
> But if you just can't answer a question, ignore it.
>
> John Tate.
>
> Note: Yes, it's not my list.
>
> --
> www.johntate.org

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Re: Narcicism?

STeve Andre'
In reply to this post by John Tate-8
On 12/01/11 02:28, John Tate wrote:

> I think I've found a bug in the OpenBSD crowd. They bug the hell out of me
> and my little mistakes.
>
> I am not talking about people who actually have a solution, but I can't
> seem to ask anything on this list without parrots coming along picking on
> me. I think some people just hang out here because it's the most anal bunch
> of hackers ever, in recorded history. What are your experiences?
>
> Is it true that occasionally we attract people who either love bullying or
> are just lazy and pretending to be one of the clever?
>
> It just figures some of these people sit on the list, and email you poorly
> researched crap with no answers contain.
>
> If you hate a question, it truly doesn't belong, bug me.
>
> But if you just can't answer a question, ignore it.
>
> John Tate.
>
> Note: Yes, it's not my list.
>

What a huge number of people coming to OpenBSD don't get
is the very very different culture here, as compared to the Linux
world.  I briefly subscribed to some Linux lists several years ago,
but dropped them when bombarded with completely undecipherable
pleas for help, which usually described nothing relevant but sounded
like a bad political bad in its intensity.

Newcomers are expected to *read* the documentation and try things,
try things several times before asking for help.  Squealing for help
returns comments of equal usefulness, and possibly comic relief for
some people.

That the BSD world comes from an academic history shows in terms
of the documentation that all the BSDs have, and Linux belies a more
active development culture, larger, at the cost of thinking things out,
and definitely placing less importance on documentation.  It's like oil
and water.

So it isn't a bug in the OpenBSD crowd, as much as the expectation
that people will work on their problems before asking, and to state
clearly what the problem is.

--STeve Andre'

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Re: Narcicism?

Tony Abernethy
In reply to this post by John Tate-8
Something about gladly making fools suffer as opposed to gladly suffering
fools.
Actually they are a lot kinder and gentler than I would be.

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of John
Tate
Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2011 1:28 AM
To: misc
Subject: Narcicism?

I think I've found a bug in the OpenBSD crowd. They bug the hell out of me
and my little mistakes.

I am not talking about people who actually have a solution, but I can't
seem to ask anything on this list without parrots coming along picking on
me. I think some people just hang out here because it's the most anal bunch
of hackers ever, in recorded history. What are your experiences?

Is it true that occasionally we attract people who either love bullying or
are just lazy and pretending to be one of the clever?

It just figures some of these people sit on the list, and email you poorly
researched crap with no answers contain.

If you hate a question, it truly doesn't belong, bug me.

But if you just can't answer a question, ignore it.

John Tate.

Note: Yes, it's not my list.

--
www.johntate.org

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Re: Narcicism?

Scott McEachern-2
In reply to this post by John Tate-8
On 12/01/11 02:28, John Tate wrote:

> I think I've found a bug in the OpenBSD crowd. They bug the hell out of me
> and my little mistakes.
>
> I am not talking about people who actually have a solution, but I can't
> seem to ask anything on this list without parrots coming along picking on
> me. I think some people just hang out here because it's the most anal bunch
> of hackers ever, in recorded history. What are your experiences?
>
> Is it true that occasionally we attract people who either love bullying or
> are just lazy and pretending to be one of the clever?
>
> It just figures some of these people sit on the list, and email you poorly
> researched crap with no answers contain.
>
> If you hate a question, it truly doesn't belong, bug me.
>
> But if you just can't answer a question, ignore it.
>
> John Tate.
>
> Note: Yes, it's not my list.
>

John, if you don't mind, I'll give you some advice:  Do your homework
before posting to the list.  Your basic instinct is to click "Send"
instead of thinking first.  I've lost count of how many of your posts
were retracted by yourself, with a big "oops, my bad" or were replied to
with RTFM-type responses.  I got a kick out of one retraction where you
said something like "Sorry, I was drunk."

You're obviously new here.  Sure, it's a tough crowd at times, but that
only happens when people don't bother reading the FAQ, or the man pages,
or trying things out for themselves.  A lot of people have asked
"stupid" questions or said something "dumb" -- myself included -- and
got painful responses.  I've had my share of facepalm experiences and
had my ass handed to me plenty of times, but I deserved it.

But you know what?  I try to not make a regular occasion of it.  It
seems you do.

I help a lot of people off-list, and I know for a fact many others do
the same.  I've found through years of experience there are two kinds of
people on this list: those that need a little help and pointed in the
right direction, and those that need their hands held for every step.  
Guess which category I put you in?  And that's exactly why I've helped
you a grand total of zero times.

Now you have the gall to come on this list and insult the people that
are trying to help you.  I don't think there's anyone on this list that
sits idly, waiting for an opportunity to "pick on" or "bully" someone.  
Get a grip, get some thicker skin, and most of all, RTFM first.

I guarantee that if you take my advice, you'll find this list to be a
very, very valuable resource.  Remember, there is a difference between
*reading* and *comprehension*.  Work a little harder on the latter and I
think you'll find you won't be "picked on".

Stop playing the victim.  You're not the first and it's old.

--
Scott McEachern

https://www.blackstaff.ca

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Re: Narcicism?

Tomas Bodzar-4
In reply to this post by John Tate-8
On Thu, Dec 1, 2011 at 8:28 AM, John Tate <[hidden email]> wrote:
> I think I've found a bug in the OpenBSD crowd. They bug the hell out of me
> and my little mistakes.

http://marc.info/?l=openbsd-misc&m=125312230626856&w=2

>
> I am not talking about people who actually have a solution, but I can't
> seem to ask anything on this list without parrots coming along picking on
> me. I think some people just hang out here because it's the most anal bunch
> of hackers ever, in recorded history. What are your experiences?
>
> Is it true that occasionally we attract people who either love bullying or
> are just lazy and pretending to be one of the clever?
>
> It just figures some of these people sit on the list, and email you poorly
> researched crap with no answers contain.
>
> If you hate a question, it truly doesn't belong, bug me.
>
> But if you just can't answer a question, ignore it.
>
> John Tate.
>
> Note: Yes, it's not my list.
>
> --
> www.johntate.org

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Re: Narcicism?

Benny Lofgren
In reply to this post by John Tate-8
On 2011-12-01 08.28, John Tate wrote:
> I think I've found a bug in the OpenBSD crowd. They bug the hell out of me
> and my little mistakes.
> I am not talking about people who actually have a solution, but I can't
> seem to ask anything on this list without parrots coming along picking on
> me. I think some people just hang out here because it's the most anal bunch
> of hackers ever, in recorded history. What are your experiences?

(Ok, this turned out to be quite a long text, but if you truly want to
know why things are the way they are, please read all of it anyway.)

My experience is that this is without a doubt one of the most competent,
matter-of-fact and fun, in a unixy sort of way, bunch of people I've
ever been around (and I haven't even met anyone in person yet).

I have never, not once, been met with snarky remarks, disrespect, bad
advice, been ignored, bashed, beaten, humiliated or anything of the sort.

Sure, I've had ideas, patches and suggestions thouroughly dissected and
sometimes declared not good enough, but I'd expect nothing less than
the highest standards being applied to whatever is submitted for review.
The way to handle that is to learn from the experience and submit better
stuff next time, not taking it as a personal insult.

The one and only reason people who come on to the list from nowhere,
name unknown to the community, gets bashed is THEY DIDN'T DO THEIR
HOMEWORK FIRST. It is written just about everywhere, so the only way
one could possibly miss the lessons about how to behave on this list
is to not even bother to look.

Let me give you an example you might be able to relate to, because it
involves you:

A while ago you asked about a problem with mounting an NFS drive. After
some questions back-and-forth with a few people I chipped in with this
diagnosis, also arrived at by others:

----8<--------8<--------8<--------8<--------8<--------8<---- (cut)
Your mountd and/or portmap most likely isn't running.

Have you followed the instructions in the FAQ? If not, backtrack
all your efforts, read up on what to do and try again.

http://www.openbsd.org/faq/faq6.html#NFS
man portmap
man nfsd
man mountd
man exports
----8<--------8<--------8<--------8<--------8<--------8<---- (cut)

Your reply:
----8<--------8<--------8<--------8<--------8<--------8<---- (cut)
Sorry I should have posted. mountd, portmap, and also the appropriate
services are running on the server portmap and nfsd.
----8<--------8<--------8<--------8<--------8<--------8<---- (cut)

Then then next day, you wrote, problem solved:
----8<--------8<--------8<--------8<--------8<--------8<---- (cut)
mountd was unhappy with my /etc/exports and wasn't starting. I truly
wish mountd checked the environment to see where I was running it from
and just told me with stdout, but for whatever clever unix reasons
does not.
----8<--------8<--------8<--------8<--------8<--------8<---- (cut)

What this tells me is this:

* you don't listen to advice (several people including me told you
a service wasn't running, yet you didn't actually CHECK)

* you don't do your homework (several people also gave you sound
reading advice, which you apparently ignored)

* you do sloppy work (since mountd actually WASN'T running on your
system, which you failed to check even when pointed towards the
likely solution by several people, you ended up misleading all who
tried to help)

* you're blaming the system for your shortcomings ("I truly wish
mountd...bla bla bla...") instead of learning to do things right
from the beginning, using the truly outstanding documentation that
sets OpenBSD apart from *everything* else on the market.

* you're not respectful of other people's time and effort, which
you apparently expect them to devote to YOU for free, while also
obviously reserving the right to take offense when they do

WHY should anyone spend even a minute of his or her time to help
you, given that you're not even prepared to do a minimum amount
of homework yourself, let alone listen to advice from people who
actually know what they're talking about?

Even so, I've been surprised how civil and courteous people here
have been towards you and your numerous problems. Not only don't
I agree with your general observations and criticism, as far as
I can tell they don't even apply in your own case.


Regards,
/Benny


> Is it true that occasionally we attract people who either love bullying or
> are just lazy and pretending to be one of the clever?
>
> It just figures some of these people sit on the list, and email you poorly
> researched crap with no answers contain.
>
> If you hate a question, it truly doesn't belong, bug me.
>
> But if you just can't answer a question, ignore it.
>
> John Tate.
>
> Note: Yes, it's not my list.
>

--
internetlabbet.se     / work:   +46 8 551 124 80      / "Words must
Benny Lofgren        /  mobile: +46 70 718 11 90     /   be weighed,
                    /   fax:    +46 8 551 124 89    /    not counted."
                   /    email:  benny -at- internetlabbet.se

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Re: Narcicism?

John Tate-8
In reply to this post by Scott McEachern-2
On Thu, Dec 1, 2011 at 7:20 PM, Scott McEachern <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 12/01/11 02:28, John Tate wrote:
>
>> I think I've found a bug in the OpenBSD crowd. They bug the hell out of me
>> and my little mistakes.
>>
>> I am not talking about people who actually have a solution, but I can't
>> seem to ask anything on this list without parrots coming along picking on
>> me. I think some people just hang out here because it's the most anal
>> bunch
>> of hackers ever, in recorded history. What are your experiences?
>>
>
I'm 24 years old. I was a Linux hacker since I was 13. I am a bit of a guru
and do my own Kerberos and such on an all BSD/Linux network. OpenBSD and
Debian Linux. I love OpenBSD, I'm a bit weird because I use bash. I can put
up with being made fun of. At 13 I didn't just start learning Linux I
started learning C++ as well. I failed to apprehend it properly at that
age, but at an older age I relearned it well. I am the guru sort of guy, I
know a hell of a lot but I'm still connecting it and in that sense still
learning.


>
>> Is it true that occasionally we attract people who either love bullying or
>> are just lazy and pretending to be one of the clever?
>>
> Well I get messages that are worthless and seem to be insults.

>
>> It just figures some of these people sit on the list, and email you poorly
>> researched crap with no answers contain.
>>
>> If you hate a question, it truly doesn't belong, bug me.
>>
>> But if you just can't answer a question, ignore it.
>>
>> John Tate.
>>
>> Note: Yes, it's not my list.
>>
>>
> John, if you don't mind, I'll give you some advice:  Do your homework
> before posting to the list.  Your basic instinct is to click "Send" instead
> of thinking first.  I've lost count of how many of your posts were
> retracted by yourself, with a big "oops, my bad" or were replied to with
> RTFM-type responses.  I got a kick out of one retraction where you said
> something like "Sorry, I was drunk."
>
> You're obviously new here.  Sure, it's a tough crowd at times, but that
> only happens when people don't bother reading the FAQ, or the man pages, or
> trying things out for themselves.  A lot of people have asked "stupid"
> questions or said something "dumb" -- myself included -- and got painful
> responses.  I've had my share of facepalm experiences and had my ass handed
> to me plenty of times, but I deserved it.
>
> But you know what?  I try to not make a regular occasion of it.  It seems
> you do.
>
> I help a lot of people off-list, and I know for a fact many others do the
> same.  I've found through years of experience there are two kinds of people
> on this list: those that need a little help and pointed in the right
> direction, and those that need their hands held for every step.  Guess
> which category I put you in?  And that's exactly why I've helped you a
> grand total of zero times.
>
> Now you have the gall to come on this list and insult the people that are
> trying to help you.  I don't think there's anyone on this list that sits
> idly, waiting for an opportunity to "pick on" or "bully" someone.  Get a
> grip, get some thicker skin, and most of all, RTFM first.
>
> I guarantee that if you take my advice, you'll find this list to be a
> very, very valuable resource.  Remember, there is a difference between
> *reading* and *comprehension*.  Work a little harder on the latter and I
> think you'll find you won't be "picked on".
>
> Stop playing the victim.  You're not the first and it's old.
>
> --
> Scott McEachern
>
> https://www.blackstaff.ca
>
>


--
www.johntate.org

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Re: Narcicism?

David Coppa
On Thu, Dec 1, 2011 at 4:25 PM, John Tate <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Thu, Dec 1, 2011 at 7:20 PM, Scott McEachern <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> On 12/01/11 02:28, John Tate wrote:
>>
>>> I think I've found a bug in the OpenBSD crowd. They bug the hell out of me
>>> and my little mistakes.
>>>
>>> I am not talking about people who actually have a solution, but I can't
>>> seem to ask anything on this list without parrots coming along picking on
>>> me. I think some people just hang out here because it's the most anal
>>> bunch
>>> of hackers ever, in recorded history. What are your experiences?
>>>
>>
> I'm 24 years old. I was a Linux hacker since I was 13. I am a bit of a guru
> and do my own Kerberos and such on an all BSD/Linux network. OpenBSD and
> Debian Linux. I love OpenBSD, I'm a bit weird because I use bash. I can put
> up with being made fun of. At 13 I didn't just start learning Linux I
> started learning C++ as well. I failed to apprehend it properly at that
> age, but at an older age I relearned it well. I am the guru sort of guy, I
> know a hell of a lot

See the subject: "Narcicism"

And, btw, the correct spelling is "Narcissism": as a guru, this is
something you should already have known ;)

ciao,
David

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Re: Narcicism?

Rares Aioanei-3
In reply to this post by John Tate-8
On 12/01/2011 05:25 PM, John Tate wrote:

> On Thu, Dec 1, 2011 at 7:20 PM, Scott McEachern<[hidden email]>  wrote:
>
> I'm 24 years old. I was a Linux hacker since I was 13. I am a bit of a guru
> and do my own Kerberos and such on an all BSD/Linux network. OpenBSD and
> Debian Linux. I love OpenBSD, I'm a bit weird because I use bash. I can put
> up with being made fun of. At 13 I didn't just start learning Linux I
> started learning C++ as well. I failed to apprehend it properly at that
> age, but at an older age I relearned it well. I am the guru sort of guy, I
> know a hell of a lot but I'm still connecting it and in that sense still
> learning.

You forgot to list modesty there as well, John.

--
Rares Aioanei

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Re: Narcicism?

Jan Stary
In reply to this post by John Tate-8
On Dec 02 02:25:06, John Tate wrote:
> I'm 24 years old. I was a Linux hacker since I was 13. I am a bit of a guru
> and do my own Kerberos and such on an all BSD/Linux network. OpenBSD and
> Debian Linux. I love OpenBSD, I'm a bit weird because I use bash. I can put
> up with being made fun of. At 13 I didn't just start learning Linux I
> started learning C++ as well. I failed to apprehend it properly at that
> age, but at an older age I relearned it well. I am the guru sort of guy, I
> know a hell of a lot

        Why don't you dig me?
        I dig you
        But you don't dig me
        I don't understand what it is
        I had my car re-upholstered
        I got my hair processed
        I got a nice pompadour job on it
        I bought a new pair of shoes
        I got some new khakis and I met you
        And we went out to get a Coca-Cola...

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Re: Narcicism?

bitfrost
In reply to this post by John Tate-8
2011/12/1 John Tate <[hidden email]>

> On Thu, Dec 1, 2011 at 7:20 PM, Scott McEachern <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
> > On 12/01/11 02:28, John Tate wrote:
> >
> >> I think I've found a bug in the OpenBSD crowd. They bug the hell out of
> me
> >> and my little mistakes.
> >>
> >> I am not talking about people who actually have a solution, but I can't
> >> seem to ask anything on this list without parrots coming along picking
> on
> >> me. I think some people just hang out here because it's the most anal
> >> bunch
> >> of hackers ever, in recorded history. What are your experiences?
> >>
> >
> I'm 24 years old. I was a Linux hacker since I was 13. I am a bit of a guru
> and do my own Kerberos and such on an all BSD/Linux network. OpenBSD and
> Debian Linux. I love OpenBSD, I'm a bit weird because I use bash. I can put
> up with being made fun of. At 13 I didn't just start learning Linux I
> started learning C++ as well. I failed to apprehend it properly at that
> age, but at an older age I relearned it well. I am the guru sort of guy, I
> know a hell of a lot but I'm still connecting it and in that sense still
> learning.
>

One thing to point it out:

When you are a real Hacker, you don`t call yourself one, people do.
When you are a real Guru, you don`t call yourself one, people do.

I dont have a big knowledge of OpenBSD, i must say i am just starting, but
the first lesson I learned....don`t make stupid questions on a list or i
will get a payback....In some way i understand your frustration...

Peace.

>
>
> >
> >> Is it true that occasionally we attract people who either love bullying
> or
> >> are just lazy and pretending to be one of the clever?
> >>
> > Well I get messages that are worthless and seem to be insults.
>
> >
> >> It just figures some of these people sit on the list, and email you
> poorly
> >> researched crap with no answers contain.
> >>
> >> If you hate a question, it truly doesn't belong, bug me.
> >>
> >> But if you just can't answer a question, ignore it.
> >>
> >> John Tate.
> >>
> >> Note: Yes, it's not my list.
> >>
> >>
> > John, if you don't mind, I'll give you some advice:  Do your homework
> > before posting to the list.  Your basic instinct is to click "Send"
> instead
> > of thinking first.  I've lost count of how many of your posts were
> > retracted by yourself, with a big "oops, my bad" or were replied to with
> > RTFM-type responses.  I got a kick out of one retraction where you said
> > something like "Sorry, I was drunk."
> >
> > You're obviously new here.  Sure, it's a tough crowd at times, but that
> > only happens when people don't bother reading the FAQ, or the man pages,
> or
> > trying things out for themselves.  A lot of people have asked "stupid"
> > questions or said something "dumb" -- myself included -- and got painful
> > responses.  I've had my share of facepalm experiences and had my ass
> handed
> > to me plenty of times, but I deserved it.
> >
> > But you know what?  I try to not make a regular occasion of it.  It seems
> > you do.
> >
> > I help a lot of people off-list, and I know for a fact many others do the
> > same.  I've found through years of experience there are two kinds of
> people
> > on this list: those that need a little help and pointed in the right
> > direction, and those that need their hands held for every step.  Guess
> > which category I put you in?  And that's exactly why I've helped you a
> > grand total of zero times.
> >
> > Now you have the gall to come on this list and insult the people that are
> > trying to help you.  I don't think there's anyone on this list that sits
> > idly, waiting for an opportunity to "pick on" or "bully" someone.  Get a
> > grip, get some thicker skin, and most of all, RTFM first.
> >
> > I guarantee that if you take my advice, you'll find this list to be a
> > very, very valuable resource.  Remember, there is a difference between
> > *reading* and *comprehension*.  Work a little harder on the latter and I
> > think you'll find you won't be "picked on".
> >
> > Stop playing the victim.  You're not the first and it's old.
> >
> > --
> > Scott McEachern
> >
> > https://www.blackstaff.ca
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> www.johntate.org
>
>


--
Atentamente

Andris Genovez Tobar / Tecnico
Elastix ECE - Linux  LPI-1 - Novell CLA - Apple ACMT
http://www.puntonet.ec

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Re: Narcicism?

Rares Aioanei-3
In reply to this post by David Coppa
On 12/01/2011 05:39 PM, David Coppa wrote:

>
> See the subject: "Narcicism"
>
> And, btw, the correct spelling is "Narcissism": as a guru, this is
> something you should already have known ;)
>
> ciao,
> David
>
>
As a citizen of an English-speaking country AND a guru, John, you should
at least know how to spell. David's right, you know.

--
Rares Aioanei

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Re: Narcicism?

Bret S. Lambert-2
In reply to this post by John Tate-8
On Fri, Dec 02, 2011 at 02:25:06AM +1100, John Tate wrote:

> On Thu, Dec 1, 2011 at 7:20 PM, Scott McEachern <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > On 12/01/11 02:28, John Tate wrote:
> >
> >> I think I've found a bug in the OpenBSD crowd. They bug the hell out of me
> >> and my little mistakes.
> >>
> >> I am not talking about people who actually have a solution, but I can't
> >> seem to ask anything on this list without parrots coming along picking on
> >> me. I think some people just hang out here because it's the most anal
> >> bunch
> >> of hackers ever, in recorded history. What are your experiences?
> >>
> >
> I'm 24 years old. I was a Linux hacker since I was 13. I am a bit of a guru
> and do my own Kerberos and such on an all BSD/Linux network. OpenBSD and
> Debian Linux. I love OpenBSD, I'm a bit weird because I use bash. I can put
> up with being made fun of. At 13 I didn't just start learning Linux I
> started learning C++ as well. I failed to apprehend it properly at that
> age, but at an older age I relearned it well. I am the guru sort of guy, I
> know a hell of a lot but I'm still connecting it and in that sense still
> learning.

Psyche-shatteringly awesome troll has massive balls, but is still a troll.

News at 11.

>
>
> >
> >> Is it true that occasionally we attract people who either love bullying or
> >> are just lazy and pretending to be one of the clever?
> >>
> > Well I get messages that are worthless and seem to be insults.
>
> >
> >> It just figures some of these people sit on the list, and email you poorly
> >> researched crap with no answers contain.
> >>
> >> If you hate a question, it truly doesn't belong, bug me.
> >>
> >> But if you just can't answer a question, ignore it.
> >>
> >> John Tate.
> >>
> >> Note: Yes, it's not my list.
> >>
> >>
> > John, if you don't mind, I'll give you some advice:  Do your homework
> > before posting to the list.  Your basic instinct is to click "Send" instead
> > of thinking first.  I've lost count of how many of your posts were
> > retracted by yourself, with a big "oops, my bad" or were replied to with
> > RTFM-type responses.  I got a kick out of one retraction where you said
> > something like "Sorry, I was drunk."
> >
> > You're obviously new here.  Sure, it's a tough crowd at times, but that
> > only happens when people don't bother reading the FAQ, or the man pages, or
> > trying things out for themselves.  A lot of people have asked "stupid"
> > questions or said something "dumb" -- myself included -- and got painful
> > responses.  I've had my share of facepalm experiences and had my ass handed
> > to me plenty of times, but I deserved it.
> >
> > But you know what?  I try to not make a regular occasion of it.  It seems
> > you do.
> >
> > I help a lot of people off-list, and I know for a fact many others do the
> > same.  I've found through years of experience there are two kinds of people
> > on this list: those that need a little help and pointed in the right
> > direction, and those that need their hands held for every step.  Guess
> > which category I put you in?  And that's exactly why I've helped you a
> > grand total of zero times.
> >
> > Now you have the gall to come on this list and insult the people that are
> > trying to help you.  I don't think there's anyone on this list that sits
> > idly, waiting for an opportunity to "pick on" or "bully" someone.  Get a
> > grip, get some thicker skin, and most of all, RTFM first.
> >
> > I guarantee that if you take my advice, you'll find this list to be a
> > very, very valuable resource.  Remember, there is a difference between
> > *reading* and *comprehension*.  Work a little harder on the latter and I
> > think you'll find you won't be "picked on".
> >
> > Stop playing the victim.  You're not the first and it's old.
> >
> > --
> > Scott McEachern
> >
> > https://www.blackstaff.ca
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> www.johntate.org

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Re: Narcicism?

Mark Romer-2
In reply to this post by Rares Aioanei-3
Man, youth is really wasted on the young.....
On Dec 1, 2011 11:04 AM, "Rares Aioanei" <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 12/01/2011 05:39 PM, David Coppa wrote:
>
>>
>> See the subject: "Narcicism"
>>
>> And, btw, the correct spelling is "Narcissism": as a guru, this is
>> something you should already have known ;)
>>
>> ciao,
>> David
>>
>>
>>  As a citizen of an English-speaking country AND a guru, John, you should
> at least know how to spell. David's right, you know.
>
> --
> Rares Aioanei

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Re: Narcicism?

Johan Beisser
In reply to this post by Rares Aioanei-3
On Thu, Dec 1, 2011 at 8:02 AM, Rares Aioanei <[hidden email]> wrote:

> As a citizen of an English-speaking country AND a guru, John, you should
> at least know how to spell. David's right, you know.

You don't need to know how to spell. People have spell checkers these days.

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Re: Narcicism?

David Riley-3
In reply to this post by John Tate-8
On Dec 1, 2011, at 10:25 AM, John Tate wrote:

> On Thu, Dec 1, 2011 at 7:20 PM, Scott McEachern <[hidden email]>
wrote:
>
>> On 12/01/11 02:28, John Tate wrote:
>>
>>> I think I've found a bug in the OpenBSD crowd. They bug the hell out of
me

>>> and my little mistakes.
>>>
>>> I am not talking about people who actually have a solution, but I can't
>>> seem to ask anything on this list without parrots coming along picking on
>>> me. I think some people just hang out here because it's the most anal
>>> bunch
>>> of hackers ever, in recorded history. What are your experiences?
>>>
>>
> I'm 24 years old. I was a Linux hacker since I was 13. I am a bit of a guru
> and do my own Kerberos and such on an all BSD/Linux network. OpenBSD and
> Debian Linux. I love OpenBSD, I'm a bit weird because I use bash. I can put
> up with being made fun of. At 13 I didn't just start learning Linux I
> started learning C++ as well. I failed to apprehend it properly at that
> age, but at an older age I relearned it well. I am the guru sort of guy, I
> know a hell of a lot but I'm still connecting it and in that sense still
> learning.

I'm wary of 24-year-olds calling themselves gurus.  I'm only 28, but for me,
that's at least old enough to know that there's a lot I don't know.  I think
you'll find most of the "serious" people on this list also started programming
in the language of their respective times about the same time you did.

The problem is not the list or the operating system, it's your attitude.  Yes,
you find yourself getting picked on a lot, but at times it's largely because
you've been sloppy.  When I get picked on because I've been sloppy, I take it
in stride and try to learn a lesson from it (at work, they apply a "Dave Riley
Coefficient" of about 2.5 to any time estimates I make, for example, because
I'm consistently bad at it; it's something I'm still working on, but there's
no reason for me to take it personally).

This is not the list to come to if you want hand-holding or soothing words to
assure you that you're master of your domain.  It's not an operating system
for people who don't like digging into the guts of things, which is partly why
it's not wildly popular.  To that extent, there's an expectation that if you
have a problem with NFS, and Google hasn't provided the instant answer you
expected, you might dig around in the (very good) documentation to see how it
really works instead of just asking for the quick answers.

To wit:

  Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for the night.
  Set fire to a man, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

  - Terry Pratchett

So if you get burned over and over because of the same goof (not RTFMing),
perhaps it's time to stop complaining about being cold.


- Dave

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Re: Narcicism?

Sime Ramov-3
In reply to this post by John Tate-8
Hi,

* John Tate <[hidden email]> [2011-12-02 02:25+1100]:
> I'm 24 years old. I was a Linux hacker since I was 13. I am a bit of a
> guru and do my own Kerberos and such on an all BSD/Linux network. I am
> the guru sort of guy, I know a hell of a lot but I'm still connecting
> it and in that sense still learning.

Now I know who I'm gonna call when I get guru meditation.

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Re: Narcicism?

Chris Cappuccio
In reply to this post by John Tate-8
John Tate [[hidden email]] wrote:
> I think I've found a bug in the OpenBSD crowd. They bug the hell out of me
> and my little mistakes.
>

Hi John,

It's actually spelled "narcissism".                                                

Chris

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Re: Narcicism?

mehma sarja
In reply to this post by John Tate-8
On 12/1/11 7:25 AM, John Tate wrote:
> I'm 24 years old. I was a Linux hacker since I was 13. I am a bit of a guru
[snip]
> age, but at an older age I relearned it well. I am the guru sort of guy, I
>
A guru is someone who knows stuff.


Mehma

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