My OpenBSD 5.0 installation experience (long rant)

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Re: My OpenBSD 5.0 installation experience (long rant)

Dmitrij D. Czarkoff-2
On Wed, 2012-03-07 at 15:27 +0100, Leonardo Sabino dos Santos wrote:
> Then again, partitioning your disk is a bit more serious than "What's
> your hostname?" or "What time zone are you in?". Maybe that one
> question deserves an extra confirmation, or a less dangerous default.

Sorry, but you wrote that you tried to scroll your screen before hitting
[Enter]. Do you really want to say you didn't read the text?

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Re: My OpenBSD 5.0 installation experience (long rant)

Donald Allen
In reply to this post by Leonardo Sabino dos Santos
"Distributing an installation program that can wipe out the user's hard
disk instantly on a single wrong keystroke, without so much as a
confirmation prompt is so shortsighted and irresponsible that I can
barely believe it. "

Doing an installation on a machine that you obviously care about, with
two existing OS installs at risk, in the casual manner you apparently
did also defies belief. *Any* install can result in disaster if not
done with proper respect for the process and no UI tweaks in the
installer will save someone who doesn't read carefully and prepare
carefully. Did you do a full backup before starting this exercise? Did
you read the FAQs on installation and multi-booting? The latter warns
you, in no uncertain terms, that what happened to you can happen to
you if you aren't careful.

/Don Allen

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Re: My OpenBSD 5.0 installation experience (long rant)

Otto Moerbeek
In reply to this post by Dmitrij D. Czarkoff-2
On Wed, Mar 07, 2012 at 03:57:10PM +0100, Dmitrij D. Czarkoff wrote:

> On Wed, 2012-03-07 at 15:27 +0100, Leonardo Sabino dos Santos wrote:
> > Then again, partitioning your disk is a bit more serious than "What's
> > your hostname?" or "What time zone are you in?". Maybe that one
> > question deserves an extra confirmation, or a less dangerous default.
>
> Sorry, but you wrote that you tried to scroll your screen before hitting
> [Enter]. Do you really want to say you didn't read the text?

AFAIK, the very minmal install kernel does not support VT scrolling.

        -Otto

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Re: My OpenBSD 5.0 installation experience (long rant)

Nick Holland
In reply to this post by Leonardo Sabino dos Santos
On 03/07/2012 07:26 AM, Leonardo Sabino dos Santos wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I want to tell you about my experience with OpenBSD.
>
> I'm a Linux user, but have always wanted to try OpenBSD. The last time
> I'd tried installing it was version 4.6 and I didn't get very far.
> That version wouldn't install on my notebook at all. The kernel
> couldn't recognise my hard drive because of some AHCI incompatibility
> on this notebook that I didn't have the expertise to solve, so I went
> back to Linux for the time. Two years later, we're on version 5.0, I
> decided to give it another try.
>
> So I downloaded all the package files, wrote them to a USB stick,
> created a bootable image with GRUB, booted into the OpenBSD installer
> and off we go. Now, this computer already had Windows 7 and Linux,
> plus about 16 GB of unpartitioned space where OpenBSD is going. It's
> actually the same notebook from two years ago.

i.e., you rolled your own install process on your first install.

> I start answering the installer's questions. Keyboard layout. Root
> password. Configuration of network interfaces. I'm not actually paying
> a whole lot of attention to the questions as this is just a test
> installation and I figure I can always explore and configure the
> system later.

you did your first test install on a multi-boot machine.  again, quite
contrary to the recommendations.

>
> Next, the disk stuff comes up. A lot of partition information appears
> on the screen, followed by the question:
>
>    Use (W)hole disk or (E)dit the MBR? [whole]
>
> At this point I'm actually trying to remember if there's a way to
> scroll back the console, because some information has scrolled of the
> screen. I try PageUp, PageDown, Ctrl-UpArrow, Ctrl-DownArrow, but
> nothing works,

yes, scrollback is something that was sacrificed on the installer to
keep it able to fit on a floppy (contrary to another contribution to
this thread).  Unfortunate, annoying, and unfortunately, I got no better
ideas.

> so I press Enter.

oops.

>
> And my partition table is gone. Poof! Instantly, with no confirmation.
> I immediately realized what had happened and rebooted. Too late. I got
> a "No OS" message. It seems that the OpenBSD installer actually
> overwrites the partition table the instant you press Enter.

if you chose "Whole disk", yes...because next step is sub-partitioning,
which can't be done until the last step is completed.

> What saved me was an Ubuntu installation CD and the wonderful tool
> gpart (http://www.brzitwa.de/mb/gpart/). With a bit of tinkering in
> gpart and some very careful work with the Linux version of fdisk, I
> managed to reconstruct the partition table and saved my system.

funny thing here.  IF you understood OpenBSD...the OpenBSD tools to fix
this would have been MUCH easier than the Linux tool of the week.

> Distributing an installation program that can wipe out the user's hard
> disk instantly on a single wrong keystroke, without so much as a
> confirmation prompt is so shortsighted and irresponsible that I can
> barely believe it. This is not about being an expert user or knowing
> what you want to do, because I knew exactly what I wanted to do. This
> is about incredibly stupid user interface design. Sorry, it's just too
> unbelievable that someone would think that this is actually a good
> idea.

I'm sorry, I've worked with many many different OSs over decades. I can
think of no OS installer that hitting "Enter" at the wrong time with the
wrong set of conditions can't end up blowing away large amounts of work.

There's a reason I tell you multibooting is not a trivial task and that
new users are encouraged to use a dedicated computer for their first
install, and to PRACTICE a multi-boot install on non-production hw
before doing it on their production machine with existing data.  You
have proved the documentation correct.

> I joined this mailing list just to tell you this: Right now, I feel
> like never, ever touching OpenBSD with a ten-foot pole again.

I would say, based on your critera, yes, you and OpenBSD aren't a good
fit.  That's ok.

Personally, I've found the OSs I have worked with (which include several
BSDs, every version of Windows and DOS, and quite a few Linux distros,
among others) all give you opportunities to blow away data during the
install process.  And later.  If you really want something that double
and triple checks every command you give it and everything you ask it to
do...I'd suggest a Mac.  But don't start me on the old Macintosh, "this
disk needs minor repairs, want me to fix it?"  [click yes]  "Formatting
disk"  um.  that wasn't minor.

The first machine I installed OpenBSD on was a very old Compaq EISA
machine, with a dedicated maintenance partition.  It got blown away
three times before I got the math right on the partition tables...and I
can assure you, the repair process was quite painful and time consuming
(involving at least three floppy disks, as I recall).  Result: I know
disk layout REALLY well now, and I LOVE the simple, fast, easy,
consistent and yet un-restricted OpenBSD installer.  I despise the
Ubuntu installerS (these features?  use THAT installer.  other features?
  use THIS installer. *sigh*).  FreeBSD keeps changing installers and
disk layout tools.  CentOS...oh my, that 6.x installer SUCKS (oh, that
little check box hidden away has to be hit to define totally unimportant
stuff like...you know...machine name, network address).  Worst part on
most of them is the built-in multi-boot support...which works great
(I'll assume) if you want to do things the way they assume you do...and
fails spectacularly if you don't (which is usually my case)

So yes, OpenBSD has a learning curb (yes, curb.  You will have to pick
up your feet to get over it, not just shuffle along as you may be used
to).  It's a lot less now than it was 12 years ago, and even then,
OpenBSD was one of the fastest OSs I've ever come up to speed on.
But..you have to put some effort into it...and the rewards, well, are
despising most of the alternatives. :)

(oh the irony.  I just deleted files on the wrong machine here.  oops.
Good thing I had backups.  Wasn't OpenBSD, but the error (right command,
wrong window) is quite platform independent. :)

Nick.

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Re: My OpenBSD 5.0 installation experience (long rant)

Dmitrij D. Czarkoff-2
In reply to this post by Leonardo Sabino dos Santos
On Wed, 2012-03-07 at 14:49 +0100, Leonardo Sabino dos Santos wrote:
> I pressed Enter by mistake there (and realized my mistake a couple of
> seconds too late). The kind of confirmation I expected is something
> like: "This will erase all partitions, are you sure (y/n)?", or an
> opportunity to review the settings before committing to the install.
>
> Sorry about the tone earlier, but I'm still incredulous that the
> install program would do something as serious as overwriting the
> partition table by default without confirmation.

That was a confirmation. And I fail to get an idea of the statement
about unexpectedness of OS installer overwriting the MBR. When you
install operating systems you should generally expect to deal with
partitioning, which should result in overwriting MBR in most cases
(unless you specifically made some changes to MBR before invoking
installer, but in this case you have to pay even more attention to the
installer as you want to make sure that it accepted your layout or at
least found the place you wanted the OS to land onto).

That's not to mention the fact that it is generally wise to back up at
least MBR when you install some OS for the first time, as you should
generally expect that some problem could arise from lack of familiarity
with OS  on your account.

Overall, your complaint boils down to the statement:

"OpenBSD installer should be tuned so that hitting [Enter] all the way
gets you to a bootable system without side effects"

which is quite contrary to the OpenBSD's user interaction practices, as
long as this system is specifically targeted at users with the opposite
approach to using PC.

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Re: My OpenBSD 5.0 installation experience (long rant)

Dave Anderson-4
In reply to this post by Stuart Henderson
On Wed, 7 Mar 2012, Stuart Henderson wrote:

>On 2012-03-07, Leonardo Sabino dos Santos <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 1:43 PM, Dmitrij D. Czarkoff <[hidden email]>
>> wrote:
>>> On Wed, 2012-03-07 at 13:26 +0100, Leonardo Sabino dos Santos wrote:
>>>> Next, the disk stuff comes up. A lot of partition information appears
>>>> on the screen, followed by the question:
>>>>
>>>>   Use (W)hole disk or (E)dit the MBR? [whole]
>>>>
>>>> At this point I'm actually trying to remember if there's a way to
>>>> scroll back the console, because some information has scrolled of the
>>>> screen. I try PageUp, PageDown, Ctrl-UpArrow, Ctrl-DownArrow, but
>>>> nothing works, so I press Enter.
>>>
>>> You were asked whether you want to edit MBR or use the whole disk, and
>>> you chose using the whole disk. This resulted in your disk being
>>> occupied by single A6 partition.
>>>
>>> So, what went wrong? What kind of confirmation did you want?
>>
>> I pressed Enter by mistake there (and realized my mistake a couple of
>> seconds too late). The kind of confirmation I expected is something
>> like: "This will erase all partitions, are you sure (y/n)?", or an
>> opportunity to review the settings before committing to the install.
>
>The thing is, then you'll want another after you edit disklabel,
>and another before running newfs (which is the first part which is
>likely to be really tough to recover from). And then when the OS
>is booted maybe you'll want rm to ask for confirmation, etc.

To be fair (which is a bit difficult given the tone of the original
message) he has identified what may be the only place in the install
process where a single wrong keystroke can do major damage.  Everyplace
else I can think of there's at least an opportunity to abort the
installation after making a mistake but before the damage is done.

I've no great love for 'are you sure' questions, but they may be
appropriate where they prevent a single easy-to-make mistake from
causing serious damage.

        Dave

--
Dave Anderson
<[hidden email]>

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Re: My OpenBSD 5.0 installation experience (long rant)

Dennis den Brok-2
In reply to this post by Raimo Niskanen-7
On 2012-03-07, Raimo Niskanen <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I just want to defend the OP a wee bit.
>
> Most installers I have encountered; Linux, FreeBSD, ... have a
> very pronounced confirmation question just before making irreversible
> changes to the target disk. Especially the ones that start by
> collecting configuration information and then do the installation
> in one pass without user interaction (SuSE comes to mind),
> which the OpenBSD installer nowdays does more than in the past...
>
> So I think a pronounced confirmation question before touching the disk
> is not a bad thing. It is what many would expect.

As there seems to be much resistance to one more (redundant) question
in the installer, I suggest to add a simple message to that part
of the installer, as in

"(Choosing 'whole disk' will become effective immediately.)"

or even

"Use (W)hole disk (writes to disk immediately) or (E)dit the MBR? [whole]"

While the FAQ is indeed clear, the installer's simplicity appears
at that point a little deceptive, in that one (I know I was) is
tempted to think that such a user-friendly installer would not harm
one so easily...

--
Dennis den Brok

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Re: My OpenBSD 5.0 installation experience (long rant)

Renzo Fabriek
In reply to this post by Leonardo Sabino dos Santos
On Wednesday 07 March 2012 15:27:51 Leonardo Sabino dos Santos wrote:

> On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 2:44 PM, Russell Garrison
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > I am absolutely intrigued by this story despite my better judgement.
> > You were able to cook your own full OpenBSD installer on a USB stick
> > with GRUB instead of downloading an ISO or using PXE, but you failed
> > disk setup in the installer? It really would be interesting to see if
> > you can read just http://www.openbsd.org/faq/faq4.html , particularly
> > 4.5.3 and then come back to us with anything other than a mea culpa.
>
> I admit to pressing Enter at some of the questions without reading
> carefully. It simply never crossed my mind that the default action for
> the installer is to erase the whole disk without chance for review. I
> still think that's a disaster waiting to happen.
>
> On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 3:04 PM, Christer Solskogen
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > What if you mistyped there as well? Do you want a "Are you REALLY
> > REALLY sure?"?
>
> Then again, partitioning your disk is a bit more serious than "What's
> your hostname?" or "What time zone are you in?". Maybe that one
> question deserves an extra confirmation, or a less dangerous default.
> Just saying.
>

When a OpenBSD partition is present than that is the default choise. Better? :)

But i have to agree with you. It is a dangerous point.
I think a patch for a blank default choise if no OpenBSD partition is present would make more chance to be accepted than a "are you sure" patch.
But... it will add an extra keystroke (W/E + enter) to save the newbees. I suspect that will be the main argument against this. But then again it would only be with fresh disks. (MBR without an OBSD part is also fresh in this case)

Another thing is that the instal script is a part of the install files... (duhh) Those files still has to fit on a floppy disk. So adding to much would make it harder to put them together.
As others said before, OpenBSD is not about handholding although they do a pretty good job already. You will discover that once you start using OBSD,

And if I may blabbermouth a bit more. Representing the info when choosing whole disk is almost useless. It is done correctly. If it is not done correctly, then you start again and find out what is wrong or different in your case. There is no harm done cause you wanted  to use the whole disk anyway. The only reason in this case is to save someone from a wrong keystoke which could be solved by giving no default when no OBSD partition is available. But that is for the  team to decide.
In case you edit the MBR by hand, representing your changes is the same as reading and chekking twice before you save and quit fdisk.

gr
Renzo

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Re: My OpenBSD 5.0 installation experience (long rant)

Aaron Bieber
In reply to this post by Dennis den Brok-2
On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 9:23 AM, Dennis den Brok <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 2012-03-07, Raimo Niskanen <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> I just want to defend the OP a wee bit.
>>
>> Most installers I have encountered; Linux, FreeBSD, ... have a
>> very pronounced confirmation question just before making irreversible
>> changes to the target disk. Especially the ones that start by
>> collecting configuration information and then do the installation
>> in one pass without user interaction (SuSE comes to mind),
>> which the OpenBSD installer nowdays does more than in the past...
>>
>> So I think a pronounced confirmation question before touching the disk
>> is not a bad thing. It is what many would expect.
>
> As there seems to be much resistance to one more (redundant) question
> in the installer, I suggest to add a simple message to that part
> of the installer, as in
>
> "(Choosing 'whole disk' will become effective immediately.)"
>
> or even
>
> "Use (W)hole disk (writes to disk immediately) or (E)dit the MBR? [whole]"
>
> While the FAQ is indeed clear, the installer's simplicity appears
> at that point a little deceptive, in that one (I know I was) is
> tempted to think that such a user-friendly installer would not harm
> one so easily...
>
> --
> Dennis den Brok
>

http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.os.openbsd.tech/28213 <-- Yay Patch!

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Re: My OpenBSD 5.0 installation experience (long rant)

Alan Corey-4
In reply to this post by Dave Anderson-4
Partitioning the disk is not irreversible.  Use the Symantek/Norton
utilities and it will make guesses and try to find Windows partitions.
Once the newfs (formatting) starts, that's fairly irreversible.

   Alan

On Wed, 7 Mar 2012, Dave Anderson wrote:

> On Wed, 7 Mar 2012, Stuart Henderson wrote:
>
>> On 2012-03-07, Leonardo Sabino dos Santos <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 1:43 PM, Dmitrij D. Czarkoff <[hidden email]>
>>> wrote:
>>>> On Wed, 2012-03-07 at 13:26 +0100, Leonardo Sabino dos Santos wrote:
>>>>> Next, the disk stuff comes up. A lot of partition information appears
>>>>> on the screen, followed by the question:
>>>>>
>>>>>   Use (W)hole disk or (E)dit the MBR? [whole]
>>>>>
>>>>> At this point I'm actually trying to remember if there's a way to
>>>>> scroll back the console, because some information has scrolled of the
>>>>> screen. I try PageUp, PageDown, Ctrl-UpArrow, Ctrl-DownArrow, but
>>>>> nothing works, so I press Enter.
>>>>
>>>> You were asked whether you want to edit MBR or use the whole disk, and
>>>> you chose using the whole disk. This resulted in your disk being
>>>> occupied by single A6 partition.
>>>>
>>>> So, what went wrong? What kind of confirmation did you want?
>>>
>>> I pressed Enter by mistake there (and realized my mistake a couple of
>>> seconds too late). The kind of confirmation I expected is something
>>> like: "This will erase all partitions, are you sure (y/n)?", or an
>>> opportunity to review the settings before committing to the install.
>>
>> The thing is, then you'll want another after you edit disklabel,
>> and another before running newfs (which is the first part which is
>> likely to be really tough to recover from). And then when the OS
>> is booted maybe you'll want rm to ask for confirmation, etc.
>
> To be fair (which is a bit difficult given the tone of the original
> message) he has identified what may be the only place in the install
> process where a single wrong keystroke can do major damage.  Everyplace
> else I can think of there's at least an opportunity to abort the
> installation after making a mistake but before the damage is done.
>
> I've no great love for 'are you sure' questions, but they may be
> appropriate where they prevent a single easy-to-make mistake from
> causing serious damage.
>
> Dave
>
> --
> Dave Anderson
> <[hidden email]>

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Re: My OpenBSD 5.0 installation experience (long rant)

Diana Eichert
In reply to this post by Aaron Bieber
gawd no

it is bad enough I live in a f&%*kn' nanny state country, don't
turn my favorite OS into Linux.

when I need my hand held I'll ask my wife to hold mine.

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Re: My OpenBSD 5.0 installation experience (long rant)

Kevin Chadwick-2
In reply to this post by Tomas Bodzar-4
> > B Use (W)hole disk or (E)dit the MBR? [whole]

You should certainly try Ctrl-C, Esc, Ctrl-alt-del, power switch and
never enter in order to not do something.

Taking the situation of the cat jumping on the keyboard and you may
have an argument except you do have to hit [I] for install first and
should be able to guard the keyboard from the cat at this important
time. If it was changed and you started using OpenBSD then it would
start to annoy you too on your tenth install. It's very cool being able
to install OpenBSD in like 5 minutes and without any wrinkles on your
forehead at any time and more importantly not have to install a new
kernel every two weeks, in fact for years for some applications of
OpenBSD ;-).

Takes a little more time to keep firefox upto date on a single system
than Linux though.

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Re: My OpenBSD 5.0 installation experience (long rant)

Donald Allen
In reply to this post by Leonardo Sabino dos Santos
"While the FAQ is indeed clear, the installer's simplicity appears
at that point a little deceptive, in that one (I know I was) is
tempted to think that such a user-friendly installer would not harm
one so easily..."

I disagree. I think the installer is fine the way it is and it was not
the problem here. The problem was the original poster's too-cavalier
approach to something that is well-known to be dangerous. What
happened here is somewhat analogous to texting while driving or flying
an airplane drunk and, when disaster occurs, being upset (assuming
survival) that the equipment didn't prevent it.

Had he prepared properly, backing up the system first and reading the
documentation, he might not have made the error, due to the clear
warnings in the docs,  and if he had, recovery would have been easy
from the backup.

Putting additional hand-holding in the installer (what part of "Use
whole disk" was difficult to understand?) can only add to a false
sense of safety. I think it makes a lot more sense that  limited
development resources be devoted to real issues, as opposed to
protecting people from their own carelessness.

/Don Allen

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Re: My OpenBSD 5.0 installation experience (long rant)

RichardET
Multi boot systems are definitely more risky to assemble;  I prefer use of
VM's instead.

On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 12:09 PM, Donald Allen <[hidden email]>wrote:

> "While the FAQ is indeed clear, the installer's simplicity appears
> at that point a little deceptive, in that one (I know I was) is
> tempted to think that such a user-friendly installer would not harm
> one so easily..."
>
> I disagree. I think the installer is fine the way it is and it was not
> the problem here. The problem was the original poster's too-cavalier
> approach to something that is well-known to be dangerous. What
> happened here is somewhat analogous to texting while driving or flying
> an airplane drunk and, when disaster occurs, being upset (assuming
> survival) that the equipment didn't prevent it.
>
> Had he prepared properly, backing up the system first and reading the
> documentation, he might not have made the error, due to the clear
> warnings in the docs,  and if he had, recovery would have been easy
> from the backup.
>
> Putting additional hand-holding in the installer (what part of "Use
> whole disk" was difficult to understand?) can only add to a false
> sense of safety. I think it makes a lot more sense that  limited
> development resources be devoted to real issues, as opposed to
> protecting people from their own carelessness.
>
> /Don Allen

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Re: My OpenBSD 5.0 installation experience (long rant)

David Vasek
In reply to this post by Donald Allen
On Wed, 7 Mar 2012, Donald Allen wrote:

> "While the FAQ is indeed clear, the installer's simplicity appears
> at that point a little deceptive, in that one (I know I was) is
> tempted to think that such a user-friendly installer would not harm
> one so easily..."
>
> I disagree. I think the installer is fine the way it is and it was not
> the problem here. The problem was the original poster's too-cavalier
> approach to something that is well-known to be dangerous. What
> happened here is somewhat analogous to texting while driving or flying
> an airplane drunk and, when disaster occurs, being upset (assuming
> survival) that the equipment didn't prevent it.

Except that the equipment shoudn't direct people to behave in such a
disasterous way. And this the case.

Regards,
David

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Re: My OpenBSD 5.0 installation experience (long rant)

Mihai Popescu-3
In reply to this post by Leonardo Sabino dos Santos
David Vasek wrote:
>Except that the equipment shoudn't direct people to behave in such a disasterous way. And this the case.

This is not the case, don't be ridiculous. There is not a disaster if
you wipe out your hardisk by mistake.
I think you got it wrong here. The developer can put anything he
consider there. It is a free product, so no obligations.
Usually, the DEFAULT option should be the one that is more often
encountered. That is, an OpenBSD true user will use its computer with
OpenBSD ONLY on the hardisk.
<joke> The default option for timezone is Canada, but this is not
where the majority of users live. But I found out how to trick this, I
start the ntpd on install and my timezone is recognized rightaway. At
least I think it is ntpd.</joke>

I respect people developing and sending patches, but yours was funny.
Did you mean it ?

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Re: My OpenBSD 5.0 installation experience (long rant)

Amit Kulkarni-5
In reply to this post by David Vasek
On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 11:19 AM, David Vasek <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Wed, 7 Mar 2012, Donald Allen wrote:
>
>> "While the FAQ is indeed clear, the installer's simplicity appears
>> at that point a little deceptive, in that one (I know I was) is
>> tempted to think that such a user-friendly installer would not harm
>> one so easily..."
>>
>> I disagree. I think the installer is fine the way it is and it was not
>> the problem here. The problem was the original poster's too-cavalier
>> approach to something that is well-known to be dangerous. What
>> happened here is somewhat analogous to texting while driving or flying
>> an airplane drunk and, when disaster occurs, being upset (assuming
>> survival) that the equipment didn't prevent it.
>
>
> Except that the equipment shoudn't direct people to behave in such a
> disasterous way. And this the case.
>
> Regards,
> David
>

what about this

Use (W)hole disk or (E)dit the MBR? [edit]

while the OP did make a mistake, he could modify the default to be
edit the MBR. so he would be forced to pay attention while staring at
the partition table. i would be paying attention to the instructions.

stuart is right, there's a point where if you add confirmations, where
would you stop?

and for some daemons, there is no open source alternative to OpenBSD,
so learn it.

good luck

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Re: My OpenBSD 5.0 installation experience (long rant)

Daniel Bolgheroni-8
In reply to this post by Leonardo Sabino dos Santos
On Wed, Mar 07, 2012 at 02:49:01PM +0100, Leonardo Sabino dos Santos wrote:
> Sorry about the tone earlier, but I'm still incredulous that the
> install program would do something as serious as overwriting the
> partition table by default without confirmation.

An installation of an unknown OS, with no backups, answering questions
without reading it, complaining on the mailing list...

Smart move, buddy.

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Re: My OpenBSD 5.0 installation experience (long rant)

Peter Nicolai Mathias Hansteen
In reply to this post by Dmitrij D. Czarkoff-2
"Dmitrij D. Czarkoff" <[hidden email]> writes:

> "OpenBSD installer should be tuned so that hitting [Enter] all the way
> gets you to a bootable system without side effects"

My typical install is almost all hitting Enter (with a couple of obvious
exceptions9, and it ends with a bootable and very usable system. But
then I tend to want OpenBSD as the main or only system.

Multiboot setups like the one the OP wanted requires a bit of paying
attention and is risky in general.

- P

--
Peter N. M. Hansteen, member of the first RFC 1149 implementation team
http://bsdly.blogspot.com/ http://www.bsdly.net/ http://www.nuug.no/
"Remember to set the evil bit on all malicious network traffic"
delilah spamd[29949]: 85.152.224.147: disconnected after 42673 seconds.

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Re: My OpenBSD 5.0 installation experience (long rant)

Donald Allen
In reply to this post by David Vasek
On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 12:19 PM, David Vasek <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Wed, 7 Mar 2012, Donald Allen wrote:
>
>> "While the FAQ is indeed clear, the installer's simplicity appears
>> at that point a little deceptive, in that one (I know I was) is
>> tempted to think that such a user-friendly installer would not harm
>> one so easily..."
>>
>> I disagree. I think the installer is fine the way it is and it was not
>> the problem here. The problem was the original poster's too-cavalier
>> approach to something that is well-known to be dangerous. What
>> happened here is somewhat analogous to texting while driving or flying
>> an airplane drunk and, when disaster occurs, being upset (assuming
>> survival) that the equipment didn't prevent it.
>
>
> Except that the equipment shoudn't direct people to behave in such a
> disasterous way. And this the case.

I don't think so. This "equipment" provided documentation that said
"Multibooting is having several operating systems on one computer, and
some means of selecting which OS is to boot. It is not a trivial task!
If you don't understand what you are doing, you may end up deleting
large amounts of data from your computer. New OpenBSD users are
strongly encouraged to start with a blank hard drive on a dedicated
machine, and then practice your desired configuration on a
non-production system before attempting a multiboot configuration on a
production machine." Then the installer said, at the moment of truth,
"Use (W)hole disk or (E)dit the MBR? [whole]". I don't see how you can
possibly think the "equipment" encouraged this problem.

I had one other thought about this. I've been following the OpenBSD
mailing lists for some years now and I don't recall ever seeing
another discussion of someone else making a hole in their foot at this
point in an install. It's possible that I'm wrong (and I don't care to
take the time to search the mail archives), but if I'm not, then this
situation is an outlier. But on the other hand, I see frequent
comments about how quick and easy it is to install OpenBSD. I think
part of the reason for that is that the installation process has been
carefully streamlined, including using well-chosen (high probability)
defaults. Changing that to address a very improbable scenario might
well amount to penalizing many to benefit a very few.

/Don

>
> Regards,
> David

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