Millions of files in /var/www & inode / out of space issue.

Previous Topic Next Topic
 
classic Classic list List threaded Threaded
65 messages Options
1234
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Precisions on ZFS (was: Millions of files in /var/www & inode / out of space issue.)

Tomas Bodzar-4
On Thu, Feb 21, 2013 at 11:50 PM, Jeremie Le Hen <[hidden email]> wrote:
> On Thu, Feb 21, 2013 at 05:15:35PM -0500, Bryan Horstmann-Allen wrote:
>> I apologize this is off-topic, but I'm somewhat close to the illumos project
>> and would like to correct a few things.
>>
>> [...things corrected...]
>
> Well, thank you very much for correcting me and providing us high quality
> informations!

What's much more funny is that Oracle is paying for training and
support to Joyent to be able to offer at least some level of support
in ZFS for its own customers :D

>
> Regards,
> --
> Jeremie Le Hen
>
> Scientists say the world is made up of Protons, Neutrons and Electrons.
> They forgot to mention Morons.

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Precisions on ZFS

Jeremie Le Hen-2
In reply to this post by bofh-6
Hi,

I know that it has been requested to stop bother OpenBSD users with ZFS,
but there are a few not-quite-right things that I want to precise.  This
will be my last post on the subject.

On Thu, Feb 21, 2013 at 08:54:13PM -0500, goodb0fh wrote:
> On Feb 21, 2013, at 6:57 PM, Matthias Appel <[hidden email]> wrote:
> .
> >
> > That is what I wanted to say....so if there Is ZFS-a and ZFS-b, why call both of them ZFS?

Historically there was a single ZFS in OpenSolaris (and Solaris).  Other
OSes, esp. FreeBSD, brought it in their code base.  Then Oracle closed
the source and put additional features.  The other-ZFS that stayed
opensource in illumos and gained additional features as well.  So yes
they are incompatible, they have the same name, this is annoying.  But I
don't think any of them is more legitimate to be called ZFS.  

I think (hope?) over time, people will prefix "ZFS" with something that
describes the branch unambiguously, like "Oracle ZFS" on one hand and
"OSS ZFS" / "illumos ZFS" on the other.


> ZFS has version numbers.  They are backward but not forward compatible
> so newer code can mount older ZFS but not the other way round.  As
> version increases, capabilities increases, from supporting
> compression, more compression options, dedup and finally, in the
> version in Solaris 11, encryption as well.
>
> All Illumos/opensolaris versions of ZFS do not support ZFS type
> encryption, sadly.

This was true until Oracle closed the source because there was only one
linear monotonically-increasing version number which clearly identified
which features were available in the pool.  

Oracle basically ignores the other ZFS so they have stayed on the same
track.  On the other hand, illumos is well aware that this may be a
problem in the future so, as Bryan Horstmann-Allen explained.  That way
there can be multiple ZFS versions, the feature flag will indicate which
feature were supported when the pool was created.

Regards,
--
Jeremie Le Hen

Scientists say the world is made up of Protons, Neutrons and Electrons.
They forgot to mention Morons.

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Precisions on ZFS (was: Millions of files in /var/www & inode / out of space issue.)

Peter Hessler
In reply to this post by Tomas Bodzar-4
On 2013 Feb 22 (Fri) at 09:27:59 +0100 (+0100), Tomas Bodzar wrote:
:On Thu, Feb 21, 2013 at 11:50 PM, Jeremie Le Hen <[hidden email]> wrote:
:> On Thu, Feb 21, 2013 at 05:15:35PM -0500, Bryan Horstmann-Allen wrote:
:>> I apologize this is off-topic, but I'm somewhat close to the illumos project
:>> and would like to correct a few things.
:>>
:>> [...things corrected...]
:>
:> Well, thank you very much for correcting me and providing us high quality
:> informations!
:
:What's much more funny is that Oracle is paying for training and
:support to Joyent to be able to offer at least some level of support
:in ZFS for its own customers :D

Oracle, Joyent, and ZFS.  None of these are related to OpenBSD.  Please
take this off the list.


--
Adult, n.:
        One old enough to know better.

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Precisions on ZFS

Peter Hessler
In reply to this post by Jeremie Le Hen-2
On 2013 Feb 22 (Fri) at 09:30:08 +0100 (+0100), Jeremie Le Hen wrote:
:Hi,
:
:I know that it has been requested to stop bother OpenBSD users with ZFS,
:but there are a few not-quite-right things that I want to precise.  This
:will be my last post on the subject.
:

You misspelled "sorry for annoying everyone, and I won't even send this email".


--
Afternoon very favorable for romance.  Try a single person for a
change.

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Precisions on ZFS (was: Millions of files in /var/www & inode / out of space issue.)

Jiri B-2
In reply to this post by Juan Francisco Cantero Hurtado
On Fri, Feb 22, 2013 at 03:29:21AM +0100, Juan Francisco Cantero Hurtado wrote:
> OpenBSD doesn't have support for loadable kernel modules or FUSE, so
> OpenBSD should include the code inside of the kernel. This is a big
> difference with FreeBSD/NetBSD/Linux.

http://www.openbsd.org/cgi-bin/cvsweb/src/sys/conf/GENERIC?rev=1.193;content-type=text%2Fplain
option      LKM # loadable kernel modules

It does have LKM (kqemu used it) but not using it by default.

jbelka

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Precisions on ZFS (was: Millions of files in /var/www & inode / out of space issue.)

Martin Schröder
In reply to this post by Juan Francisco Cantero Hurtado
2013/2/22 Juan Francisco Cantero Hurtado <[hidden email]>:
> Here in the BSD world, we have HAMMER, a good alternative with a license
> compatible and a reasonable requirements.

Here in the OpenBSD world we don't have HAMMER.

Best
   Martin

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Precisions on ZFS (was: Millions of files in /var/www & inode / out of space issue.)

Jiri B-2
In reply to this post by Jiri B-2
On Fri, Feb 22, 2013 at 04:22:51AM -0500, Jiri B wrote:
> On Fri, Feb 22, 2013 at 03:29:21AM +0100, Juan Francisco Cantero Hurtado wrote:
> > OpenBSD doesn't have support for loadable kernel modules or FUSE, so
> > OpenBSD should include the code inside of the kernel. This is a big
> > difference with FreeBSD/NetBSD/Linux.
>
> http://www.openbsd.org/cgi-bin/cvsweb/src/sys/conf/GENERIC?rev=1.193;content-type=text%2Fplain
> option      LKM # loadable kernel modules
>
> It does have LKM (kqemu used it) but not using it by default.

Just for record, NOBODY is preventing to port ZFS with any license
to OpenBSD but it will NEVER be part of base OS. But still you
can port it, support it and load it via LKM.

jirib

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Millions of files in /var/www & inode / out of space issue.

Paolo Aglialoro
In reply to this post by Stuart Henderson
The source was available, but it relies on Sun/Oracle patents.
> The CDDL license it was provided under allows use of those patents,
> but only subject to certain conditions, and there are indemnification
> clauses that some projects cannot agree to.
>

Does this mean that freebsd, netbsd, maczfs, zfs fuse driver for linux and
the tons of other projects are all at risk? Till today, nobody of them has
been sued. Don't they work on the 28th release of zfs, the last one
considered free before it became closed source? Did closing the source
"edit" the conditions of previous releases?

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Precisions on ZFS (was: Millions of files in /var/www & inode / out of space issue.)

Eric Furman-3
In reply to this post by Martin Schröder
but Martin Schröder is not a developer. So what is his word worth???
I don't know and neither does Martin Schröder.

On Fri, Feb 22, 2013, at 04:23 AM, Martin Schröder wrote:
> 2013/2/22 Juan Francisco Cantero Hurtado <[hidden email]>:
> > Here in the BSD world, we have HAMMER, a good alternative with a license
> > compatible and a reasonable requirements.
>
> Here in the OpenBSD world we don't have HAMMER.
>
> Best
>    Martin

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Precisions on ZFS

Eric Furman-3
In reply to this post by Jeremie Le Hen-2
There are *PATENTS* involved.
So even reveres engineering things does not solve the problem.
Reverse engineered code is still *PATENTED*.
You have to write new original code to avoid PATENTS.
Who wants to do that?????
I would guess, no one on the OBSD team.
It's not worth it.

On Fri, Feb 22, 2013, at 03:30 AM, Jeremie Le Hen wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I know that it has been requested to stop bother OpenBSD users with ZFS,
> but there are a few not-quite-right things that I want to precise.  This
> will be my last post on the subject.
>
> On Thu, Feb 21, 2013 at 08:54:13PM -0500, goodb0fh wrote:
> > On Feb 21, 2013, at 6:57 PM, Matthias Appel <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > .
> > >
> > > That is what I wanted to say....so if there Is ZFS-a and ZFS-b, why call both of them ZFS?
>
> Historically there was a single ZFS in OpenSolaris (and Solaris).  Other
> OSes, esp. FreeBSD, brought it in their code base.  Then Oracle closed
> the source and put additional features.  The other-ZFS that stayed
> opensource in illumos and gained additional features as well.  So yes
> they are incompatible, they have the same name, this is annoying.  But I
> don't think any of them is more legitimate to be called ZFS.  
>
> I think (hope?) over time, people will prefix "ZFS" with something that
> describes the branch unambiguously, like "Oracle ZFS" on one hand and
> "OSS ZFS" / "illumos ZFS" on the other.
>
>
> > ZFS has version numbers.  They are backward but not forward compatible
> > so newer code can mount older ZFS but not the other way round.  As
> > version increases, capabilities increases, from supporting
> > compression, more compression options, dedup and finally, in the
> > version in Solaris 11, encryption as well.
> >
> > All Illumos/opensolaris versions of ZFS do not support ZFS type
> > encryption, sadly.
>
> This was true until Oracle closed the source because there was only one
> linear monotonically-increasing version number which clearly identified
> which features were available in the pool.  
>
> Oracle basically ignores the other ZFS so they have stayed on the same
> track.  On the other hand, illumos is well aware that this may be a
> problem in the future so, as Bryan Horstmann-Allen explained.  That way
> there can be multiple ZFS versions, the feature flag will indicate which
> feature were supported when the pool was created.
>
> Regards,
> --
> Jeremie Le Hen
>
> Scientists say the world is made up of Protons, Neutrons and Electrons.
> They forgot to mention Morons.

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Millions of files in /var/www & inode / out of space issue.

Eric Furman-3
In reply to this post by Paolo Aglialoro
YES, unless they signed NDA. Which I can tell you they did.

On Fri, Feb 22, 2013, at 05:44 AM, Paolo Aglialoro wrote:

> The source was available, but it relies on Sun/Oracle patents.
> > The CDDL license it was provided under allows use of those patents,
> > but only subject to certain conditions, and there are indemnification
> > clauses that some projects cannot agree to.
> >
>
> Does this mean that freebsd, netbsd, maczfs, zfs fuse driver for linux
> and
> the tons of other projects are all at risk? Till today, nobody of them
> has
> been sued. Don't they work on the 28th release of zfs, the last one
> considered free before it became closed source? Did closing the source
> "edit" the conditions of previous releases?

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Precisions on ZFS (was: Millions of files in /var/www & inode / out of space issue.)

Martin Schröder
In reply to this post by Eric Furman-3
2013/2/22 Eric Furman <[hidden email]>:
> but Martin Schröder is not a developer. So what is his word worth???

http://www.openbsd.org/faq/faq8.html#Journaling

Now go and fuck yourself.

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Millions of files in /var/www & inode / out of space issue.

Janne Johansson-3
In reply to this post by Paolo Aglialoro
2013/2/22 Paolo Aglialoro <[hidden email]>:

> The source was available, but it relies on Sun/Oracle patents.
>> The CDDL license it was provided under allows use of those patents,
>> but only subject to certain conditions, and there are indemnification
>> clauses that some projects cannot agree to.
>
> Does this mean that freebsd, netbsd, maczfs, zfs fuse driver for linux and
> the tons of other projects are all at risk? Till today, nobody of them has
> been sued. Don't they work on the 28th release of zfs, the last one
> considered free before it became closed source? Did closing the source
> "edit" the conditions of previous releases?

Perhaps mixing licenses make the user (if the user resells a combined
system for instance) liable instead of the project.
Would be perfectly legal to provide source for something incompatible
licensewise, and then have the users carry the blame instead.
Would not be nice, but legal.

--
May the most significant bit of your life be positive.

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Precisions on ZFS (was: Millions of files in /var/www & inode / out of space issue.)

phessler
In reply to this post by Martin Schröder
Please take personal insults off list.  We are not interested.

--
Don't cook tonight -- starve a rat today!

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Precisions on ZFS (was: Millions of files in /var/www & inode / out of space issue.)

Eric Furman-3
In reply to this post by Martin Schröder
That proves nothing.
Until your name is on this list;
http://www.openbsd.org/cgi-bin/cvsweb/~checkout~/ports/geo/openbsd-developers/files/OpenBSD
YOU ARE NOT A DEVELOPER.
FUCK YOU!

On Fri, Feb 22, 2013, at 06:29 AM, Martin Schröder wrote:
> 2013/2/22 Eric Furman <[hidden email]>:
> > but Martin Schröder is not a developer. So what is his word worth???
>
> http://www.openbsd.org/faq/faq8.html#Journaling
>
> Now go and fuck yourself.

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Precisions on ZFS (was: Millions of files in /var/www & inode / out of space issue.)

Juan Francisco Cantero Hurtado
In reply to this post by Jiri B-2
On Fri, Feb 22, 2013 at 04:22:51AM -0500, Jiri B wrote:

> On Fri, Feb 22, 2013 at 03:29:21AM +0100, Juan Francisco Cantero Hurtado wrote:
> > OpenBSD doesn't have support for loadable kernel modules or FUSE, so
> > OpenBSD should include the code inside of the kernel. This is a big
> > difference with FreeBSD/NetBSD/Linux.
>
> http://www.openbsd.org/cgi-bin/cvsweb/src/sys/conf/GENERIC?rev=1.193;content-type=text%2Fplain
> option      LKM # loadable kernel modules
>
> It does have LKM (kqemu used it) but not using it by default.
>
> jbelka

I didn't know about lkm before of the mail of Andres. I never needed
extra modules.

--
Juan Francisco Cantero Hurtado http://juanfra.info

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Precisions on ZFS (was: Millions of files in /var/www & inode / out of space issue.)

Janne Johansson-3
OpenBSD doesn't believe much in them, and doesn't need lkms for all basic usage.
It just didn't get disabled in case someone (like OpenAFS users) wants it.
It doesn't work on all platforms, either

2013/2/22 Juan Francisco Cantero Hurtado <[hidden email]>:

> On Fri, Feb 22, 2013 at 04:22:51AM -0500, Jiri B wrote:
>> On Fri, Feb 22, 2013 at 03:29:21AM +0100, Juan Francisco Cantero Hurtado wrote:
>> > OpenBSD doesn't have support for loadable kernel modules or FUSE, so
>> > OpenBSD should include the code inside of the kernel. This is a big
>> > difference with FreeBSD/NetBSD/Linux.
>>
>> http://www.openbsd.org/cgi-bin/cvsweb/src/sys/conf/GENERIC?rev=1.193;content-type=text%2Fplain
>> option                  LKM           # loadable kernel modules
>>
>> It does have LKM (kqemu used it) but not using it by default.
>>
>> jbelka
>
> I didn't know about lkm before of the mail of Andres. I never needed
> extra modules.
>
> --
> Juan Francisco Cantero Hurtado http://juanfra.info
>



--
May the most significant bit of your life be positive.

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Precisions on ZFS (was: Millions of files in /var/www & inode / out of space issue.)

Ted Unangst-6
In reply to this post by Eric Furman-3
On Fri, Feb 22, 2013 at 06:42, Eric Furman wrote:
> Until your name is on this list;
> http://www.openbsd.org/cgi-bin/cvsweb/~checkout~/ports/geo/openbsd-developers/files/OpenBSD
>
> YOU ARE NOT A DEVELOPER.

Now that's hysterical.

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Precisions on ZFS (was: Millions of files in /var/www & inode / out of space issue.)

Brian Callahan-3
On 2/22/2013 8:02 AM, Ted Unangst wrote:
> On Fri, Feb 22, 2013 at 06:42, Eric Furman wrote:
>> Until your name is on this list;
>> http://www.openbsd.org/cgi-bin/cvsweb/~checkout~/ports/geo/openbsd-developers/files/OpenBSD
>>
>> YOU ARE NOT A DEVELOPER.
>

I'm making this into a shirt.

~Brian

MJ
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Precisions on ZFS (was: Millions of files in /var/www & inode / out of space issue.)

MJ
Yeah, can I order one? This thread is hilariously funny! I even managed to get an entire car full of people laughing by reading it to them from my mobile.

Long live OpenBSD and long live ZFS -  I love you both!


On 22 Feb 2013, at 16:18, Brian Callahan <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 2/22/2013 8:02 AM, Ted Unangst wrote:
>> On Fri, Feb 22, 2013 at 06:42, Eric Furman wrote:
>>> Until your name is on this list;
>>> http://www.openbsd.org/cgi-bin/cvsweb/~checkout~/ports/geo/openbsd-developers/files/OpenBSD
>>>
>>> YOU ARE NOT A DEVELOPER.
>
> I'm making this into a shirt.
>
> ~Brian

1234