Improvements and thoughts on small projects for advocacy

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Improvements and thoughts on small projects for advocacy

Aisha Tammy-4
Hi all,
  I was wondering why this list is a bit dead (?!) and hoping to gain
some ideas for maybe reviving it.

I totally understand that most people at openbsd are devs and would
like to focus more on coding than advocacy so I was wondering if people
like me who are not that techy (mostly small ports) can help with
this part.

I am open to constructive criticism, so please forgive me if I seem
out of touch. I have been subscribed for close to a month and didn't
notice a lot of things happening around here :( so I was hoping
to spice things up a tiny bit.

Most of the ways in which I have tried previously is my creating
whole bunch of small openbsd github projects and sharing them on reddit
and twitter. But like this is barely scratching the surface of social
media. I feel like there is a lot more that could be done :)

Some of the basic things which I feel like are low hanging fruits

(1) Showcasing tutorials on setting up small projects.

One of the things that people get a good feeling from (me included)
is when we manage to get some service running, no matter how small
or insignificant it is. Like getting my znc setup, I was riding on
that high for like 2 weeks (I know this sounds a bit dumb cuz I am
a noob, but it was pretty nice to feel like I accomplished something).

So it might be nice to  show how to set up small services.
I mean things like setting up a blog (using worpress or similar),
or a wiki, or a hugo/jekyll website.

There are a lot of really nice blog posts by a lot of cool people
which show work arounds (for quirks) for these things in OpenBSD.

It might be nice to have some kind of highlights page at openbsd
which shows these nice links. (I know undeadly.org exists but is
not pointed to by openbsd.org, would be nice if that could be done
if nothng else is possible)

I feel like while OpenBSD has really awesome benefits, the communication
of these with the community could do with some work.

(2) Having a bit more of a social presence

Doesn't need to be facebook/twitter. I know undeadly.org has some really nice
articles with highlight for nice things happening in the tech/ports lists
but unfortunately undeadly is not that well known

While I am by no means a social media expert I still feel the lack of
presence of OpenBSD in general media articles and published stories.

I am open to some idea about how to try and increase this part.
Some ways I can think of:
  A) Getting in contact with news letter publishers and letting them
     know of nice developments that have happened. I don't think that
     linux news letters would be averse to having openbsd information
     sent on them.
     I am sure a lot of them would love if we send them information
     and do some of the work of finding articles for them, which ties
     into my previous part of having a highlights page
  B) Having an official blog
     I feel like this is a pretty important thing, especially in nowadays,
     where most things are spread online. Having an official blog will make
     things very easy for a lot of people to get interested. I am sure that
     there are quite a lot of people willing to chip in for this part if it
     was announced that there is going to be such an endeavor.
  C) (A controversial point) Trying to make things look a bit more
     stylistic (please don't kill me T.T )
     While I agree that clarity is the most important part a small amount
     of color in the official documentation is not the worst thing in
     the world. I am open to this part being thrown out.

(3) Showcasing a page for people to get involved in various parts of
the project

Currently the pipeline to get involved seems like
try out obsd -> find something you find is not working or you don't like ->
find person working on it -> contact them -> bug report/patch to change
(have I missed something?)
This seems to be a tried and true pipeline which has worked so far.
It might also be good to have a page of open quests/projects in openbsd
where new people can contribute without having to delve too deep into
system code. This was inspired by my recent forays into string algorithms
on OpenBSD (nothing wrong with them, just that I was looking around and
trying to see what could be changed/improved).

Having devs post TODOs and help needed/appreciated into a web page allows for
interested parties to get a better look at ongoing projects.

Currently I haven't figured out anyway to see what current new projects
are being developed in OpenBSD. I feel like showcasing ongoing projects
is just as important as showing completed ones in the highlights.

(While watching presentations are conferences is definitely one way to see
ongoing projects it is nowhere near and optimal approach)

----

These three were my main points in sending this email.
Sorry that it got a bit long in the process.

Any things that I might be wrong about, I assure you I mean nothing harmful
so do let me know what I have missed and erred on.
I am only started using OpenBSD for a short while for less than 7-8 months
but I feel like in those 7-8 months a lot of the things that I have learned could
have benefited from the above points to make the transition simpler :)

These are my personal thoughts so take them with handful of salt.

Hope you all are staying safe,
Aisha

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Re: Improvements and thoughts on small projects for advocacy

Austin Hook-2

Bravo, Aisha,

  I myself was wondering why "advocacy" no longer shows up on the lists of
OpenBSD mailing lists.  It was a nice place to discuss ideas that are not
just confined to technical software matters.  I see that is still works
however.  Next thing is to ask the devs if they would consider putting it
back.  

Austin


On Thu, 14 May 2020, Aisha Tammy wrote:

> Hi all,
>   I was wondering why this list is a bit dead (?!) and hoping to gain
> some ideas for maybe reviving it.
>
> I totally understand that most people at openbsd are devs and would
> like to focus more on coding than advocacy so I was wondering if people
> like me who are not that techy (mostly small ports) can help with
> this part.
>
> I am open to constructive criticism, so please forgive me if I seem
> out of touch. I have been subscribed for close to a month and didn't
> notice a lot of things happening around here :( so I was hoping
> to spice things up a tiny bit.
>
> Most of the ways in which I have tried previously is my creating
> whole bunch of small openbsd github projects and sharing them on reddit
> and twitter. But like this is barely scratching the surface of social
> media. I feel like there is a lot more that could be done :)
>
> Some of the basic things which I feel like are low hanging fruits
>
> (1) Showcasing tutorials on setting up small projects.
>
> One of the things that people get a good feeling from (me included)
> is when we manage to get some service running, no matter how small
> or insignificant it is. Like getting my znc setup, I was riding on
> that high for like 2 weeks (I know this sounds a bit dumb cuz I am
> a noob, but it was pretty nice to feel like I accomplished something).
>
> So it might be nice to  show how to set up small services.
> I mean things like setting up a blog (using worpress or similar),
> or a wiki, or a hugo/jekyll website.
>
> There are a lot of really nice blog posts by a lot of cool people
> which show work arounds (for quirks) for these things in OpenBSD.
>
> It might be nice to have some kind of highlights page at openbsd
> which shows these nice links. (I know undeadly.org exists but is
> not pointed to by openbsd.org, would be nice if that could be done
> if nothng else is possible)
>
> I feel like while OpenBSD has really awesome benefits, the communication
> of these with the community could do with some work.
>
> (2) Having a bit more of a social presence
>
> Doesn't need to be facebook/twitter. I know undeadly.org has some really nice
> articles with highlight for nice things happening in the tech/ports lists
> but unfortunately undeadly is not that well known
>
> While I am by no means a social media expert I still feel the lack of
> presence of OpenBSD in general media articles and published stories.
>
> I am open to some idea about how to try and increase this part.
> Some ways I can think of:
>   A) Getting in contact with news letter publishers and letting them
>      know of nice developments that have happened. I don't think that
>      linux news letters would be averse to having openbsd information
>      sent on them.
>      I am sure a lot of them would love if we send them information
>      and do some of the work of finding articles for them, which ties
>      into my previous part of having a highlights page
>   B) Having an official blog
>      I feel like this is a pretty important thing, especially in nowadays,
>      where most things are spread online. Having an official blog will make
>      things very easy for a lot of people to get interested. I am sure that
>      there are quite a lot of people willing to chip in for this part if it
>      was announced that there is going to be such an endeavor.
>   C) (A controversial point) Trying to make things look a bit more
>      stylistic (please don't kill me T.T )
>      While I agree that clarity is the most important part a small amount
>      of color in the official documentation is not the worst thing in
>      the world. I am open to this part being thrown out.
>
> (3) Showcasing a page for people to get involved in various parts of
> the project
>
> Currently the pipeline to get involved seems like
> try out obsd -> find something you find is not working or you don't like ->
> find person working on it -> contact them -> bug report/patch to change
> (have I missed something?)
> This seems to be a tried and true pipeline which has worked so far.
> It might also be good to have a page of open quests/projects in openbsd
> where new people can contribute without having to delve too deep into
> system code. This was inspired by my recent forays into string algorithms
> on OpenBSD (nothing wrong with them, just that I was looking around and
> trying to see what could be changed/improved).
>
> Having devs post TODOs and help needed/appreciated into a web page allows for
> interested parties to get a better look at ongoing projects.
>
> Currently I haven't figured out anyway to see what current new projects
> are being developed in OpenBSD. I feel like showcasing ongoing projects
> is just as important as showing completed ones in the highlights.
>
> (While watching presentations are conferences is definitely one way to see
> ongoing projects it is nowhere near and optimal approach)
>
> ----
>
> These three were my main points in sending this email.
> Sorry that it got a bit long in the process.
>
> Any things that I might be wrong about, I assure you I mean nothing harmful
> so do let me know what I have missed and erred on.
> I am only started using OpenBSD for a short while for less than 7-8 months
> but I feel like in those 7-8 months a lot of the things that I have learned could
> have benefited from the above points to make the transition simpler :)
>
> These are my personal thoughts so take them with handful of salt.
>
> Hope you all are staying safe,
> Aisha
>

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OpenBSD compatibility with inexpensive USB microscopes

Austin Hook-2
In reply to this post by Aisha Tammy-4

Wonder if anyone is successfully using video(1) with one of those
inexpensive USB devices that one finds on eBay.

Austin

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Re: Improvements and thoughts on small projects for advocacy

Aisha Tammy-4
In reply to this post by Austin Hook-2
On 5/14/20 11:03 AM, Austin Hook wrote:
>
> Bravo, Aisha,
>
>   I myself was wondering why "advocacy" no longer shows up on the lists of
> OpenBSD mailing lists.  It was a nice place to discuss ideas that are not
> just confined to technical software matters.  I see that is still works
> however.  Next thing is to ask the devs if they would consider putting it
> back.  
>
Thanks a lot.

Oh, I didn't know that it was removed. It would be really nice to have this
up there again.

I am going to start making a small website for interesting ports that could
be done by new comers who want to help and start sending the things I find
around the web about OpenBSD to some interesting news letters and undeadly, and
also start contributing to undeadly.org (though that latter may take a while
longer due to my busy schedule).

Sending the undeadly articles to others through emails (I am using their
rss at the moment) should be pretty easy.

The current newsletters (that I follow) which I think are pretty popular
and how I get a lot of the information about ongoings (outside of reddit :P)

(1) cron.weekly: https://ma.ttias.be/cronweekly/
(2) linux journal: https://www.linuxjournal.com/
(3) linux foundation: https://www.linuxfoundation.org/
(4) nix craft: https://www.cyberciti.biz/

Am open to other ideas.

Aisha

> Austin
>
>
> On Thu, 14 May 2020, Aisha Tammy wrote:
>
>> Hi all,
>>   I was wondering why this list is a bit dead (?!) and hoping to gain
>> some ideas for maybe reviving it.
>>
>> I totally understand that most people at openbsd are devs and would
>> like to focus more on coding than advocacy so I was wondering if people
>> like me who are not that techy (mostly small ports) can help with
>> this part.
>>
>> I am open to constructive criticism, so please forgive me if I seem
>> out of touch. I have been subscribed for close to a month and didn't
>> notice a lot of things happening around here :( so I was hoping
>> to spice things up a tiny bit.
>>
>> Most of the ways in which I have tried previously is my creating
>> whole bunch of small openbsd github projects and sharing them on reddit
>> and twitter. But like this is barely scratching the surface of social
>> media. I feel like there is a lot more that could be done :)
>>
>> Some of the basic things which I feel like are low hanging fruits
>>
>> (1) Showcasing tutorials on setting up small projects.
>>
>> One of the things that people get a good feeling from (me included)
>> is when we manage to get some service running, no matter how small
>> or insignificant it is. Like getting my znc setup, I was riding on
>> that high for like 2 weeks (I know this sounds a bit dumb cuz I am
>> a noob, but it was pretty nice to feel like I accomplished something).
>>
>> So it might be nice to  show how to set up small services.
>> I mean things like setting up a blog (using worpress or similar),
>> or a wiki, or a hugo/jekyll website.
>>
>> There are a lot of really nice blog posts by a lot of cool people
>> which show work arounds (for quirks) for these things in OpenBSD.
>>
>> It might be nice to have some kind of highlights page at openbsd
>> which shows these nice links. (I know undeadly.org exists but is
>> not pointed to by openbsd.org, would be nice if that could be done
>> if nothng else is possible)
>>
>> I feel like while OpenBSD has really awesome benefits, the communication
>> of these with the community could do with some work.
>>
>> (2) Having a bit more of a social presence
>>
>> Doesn't need to be facebook/twitter. I know undeadly.org has some really nice
>> articles with highlight for nice things happening in the tech/ports lists
>> but unfortunately undeadly is not that well known
>>
>> While I am by no means a social media expert I still feel the lack of
>> presence of OpenBSD in general media articles and published stories.
>>
>> I am open to some idea about how to try and increase this part.
>> Some ways I can think of:
>>   A) Getting in contact with news letter publishers and letting them
>>      know of nice developments that have happened. I don't think that
>>      linux news letters would be averse to having openbsd information
>>      sent on them.
>>      I am sure a lot of them would love if we send them information
>>      and do some of the work of finding articles for them, which ties
>>      into my previous part of having a highlights page
>>   B) Having an official blog
>>      I feel like this is a pretty important thing, especially in nowadays,
>>      where most things are spread online. Having an official blog will make
>>      things very easy for a lot of people to get interested. I am sure that
>>      there are quite a lot of people willing to chip in for this part if it
>>      was announced that there is going to be such an endeavor.
>>   C) (A controversial point) Trying to make things look a bit more
>>      stylistic (please don't kill me T.T )
>>      While I agree that clarity is the most important part a small amount
>>      of color in the official documentation is not the worst thing in
>>      the world. I am open to this part being thrown out.
>>
>> (3) Showcasing a page for people to get involved in various parts of
>> the project
>>
>> Currently the pipeline to get involved seems like
>> try out obsd -> find something you find is not working or you don't like ->
>> find person working on it -> contact them -> bug report/patch to change
>> (have I missed something?)
>> This seems to be a tried and true pipeline which has worked so far.
>> It might also be good to have a page of open quests/projects in openbsd
>> where new people can contribute without having to delve too deep into
>> system code. This was inspired by my recent forays into string algorithms
>> on OpenBSD (nothing wrong with them, just that I was looking around and
>> trying to see what could be changed/improved).
>>
>> Having devs post TODOs and help needed/appreciated into a web page allows for
>> interested parties to get a better look at ongoing projects.
>>
>> Currently I haven't figured out anyway to see what current new projects
>> are being developed in OpenBSD. I feel like showcasing ongoing projects
>> is just as important as showing completed ones in the highlights.
>>
>> (While watching presentations are conferences is definitely one way to see
>> ongoing projects it is nowhere near and optimal approach)
>>
>> ----
>>
>> These three were my main points in sending this email.
>> Sorry that it got a bit long in the process.
>>
>> Any things that I might be wrong about, I assure you I mean nothing harmful
>> so do let me know what I have missed and erred on.
>> I am only started using OpenBSD for a short while for less than 7-8 months
>> but I feel like in those 7-8 months a lot of the things that I have learned could
>> have benefited from the above points to make the transition simpler :)
>>
>> These are my personal thoughts so take them with handful of salt.
>>
>> Hope you all are staying safe,
>> Aisha
>>

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Re: Improvements and thoughts on small projects for advocacy

Kyle Willett
In reply to this post by Austin Hook-2
I think OpenBSD advocacy could do more too.  I read on an open source
news site that Lenovo is going to start offering a Fedora Linux option
on their Thinkpad lineup and already certifies some for Red Hat
Enterprise Linux.  I think it would be great if we could get some
hardware manufacturer to certify OpenBSD on a device and offer it
pre-installed as an OS choice.  I think that would be a good thing for
the project.  Maybe an AMD64 x86_64 laptop is too much at first and
maybe we should start with one of the arm or mips laptops supported
well by OpenBSD.  I don't know just a dream I have.

Kyle

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Re: Improvements and thoughts on small projects for advocacy

Theo de Raadt-2
Kyle Willett <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I think OpenBSD advocacy could do more too.  I read on an open source
> news site that Lenovo is going to start offering a Fedora Linux option
> on their Thinkpad lineup and already certifies some for Red Hat
> Enterprise Linux.  I think it would be great if we could get some

Who is "we"?
                           
> hardware manufacturer to certify OpenBSD on a device and offer it
> pre-installed as an OS choice.  I think that would be a good thing for
> the project.  Maybe an AMD64 x86_64 laptop is too much at first and
> maybe we should start with one of the arm or mips laptops supported

Who is "we"?

> well by OpenBSD.  I don't know just a dream I have.

Why go around telling people your dreams?  Why not do all this yourself?
You don't need a mailing list for it.  Is it your dream that others in the
group "we" will do what you dream?

What you are doing here is advocating that other people do that which
you don't and won't do yourself.  To be honest, it comes off small minded.

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Re: Improvements and thoughts on small projects for advocacy

Justina Colmena


On May 14, 2020 3:24:32 PM AKDT, Theo de Raadt <[hidden email]> wrote:
>Kyle Willett <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> I think OpenBSD advocacy could do more too.  I read on an open source
>> news site that Lenovo is going to start offering a Fedora Linux
>option
>> on their Thinkpad lineup and already certifies some for Red Hat
>> Enterprise Linux.  I think it would be great if we could get some
>
>Who is "we"?
I (for one) am currently the proud owner of a Lenovo IdeaPad L340 with 4 dual-core processors on it.

>                          
>> hardware manufacturer to certify OpenBSD on a device and offer it
>> pre-installed as an OS choice.  I think that would be a good thing
>for
>> the project.  Maybe an AMD64 x86_64 laptop is too much at first and
>> maybe we should start with one of the arm or mips laptops supported
>
>Who is "we"?
>
>> well by OpenBSD.  I don't know just a dream I have.
>
I am currently running Fedora 31 and I would strongly consider switching back to OpenBSD, as I have used it in the past, if the proper hardware support were in place.
>Why go around telling people your dreams?  Why not do all this
>yourself?
>You don't need a mailing list for it.  Is it your dream that others in
>the
>group "we" will do what you dream?
>
>What you are doing here is advocating that other people do that which
>you don't and won't do yourself.  To be honest, it comes off small
>minded.
"We" are suffering from many of the same hardware problems you are, when you can't get documentation from the manufacturers of hardware devices, __without an NDA__, to write OpenBSD drivers for them.

 * General bit rot: Rowhammer, hard drive crashes, etc.
 * Proprietary patented intellectual property with "No user serviceable parts inside."
 * "This product contains a _____ known to the State of California to cause cancer."
 * "The NSA" with all the undocumented back doors for the cops in everything, the USA crypto export regulations.
 * The FBI warnings on the movies, the Mounties in Canada and the State Troopers in the U.S., the copyrighted content, the child pornography, the firearms, the weed, and all sorts of other information deemed illegal for us to possess on our own computers.
 * The "hack job" in the mainstream media: we're all "hackers" if we don't use Microsoft® Windows® on an approved Intel® microprocessor as approved by the corporate boss.
 * The "evil maid" attack of some lady digging in a guy's computer with a private investigator or a subpoena for an anti-harassment civil suit or a restraining order or no-contact order or something like that.
 * The drug dealers and the hit men on the "dark web", the Bitcoin miners and the crypto currency mining bots.
 * The constant double-dealing between "full" KVM virtualization and Linux-kernel-only "paravirtualization" in the cloud.
 * The SWAT teams with their doorbuster warrants for anybody who runs a "server."
 * No IPv6 support anywhere under the sun.
 * ...

--
Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.

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Re: Improvements and thoughts on small projects for advocacy

Aisha Tammy-4
In reply to this post by Theo de Raadt-2
On 5/14/20 7:24 PM, Theo de Raadt wrote:

> Kyle Willett <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> I think OpenBSD advocacy could do more too.  I read on an open source
>> news site that Lenovo is going to start offering a Fedora Linux option
>> on their Thinkpad lineup and already certifies some for Red Hat
>> Enterprise Linux.  I think it would be great if we could get some
>
> Who is "we"?
>                            
>> hardware manufacturer to certify OpenBSD on a device and offer it
>> pre-installed as an OS choice.  I think that would be a good thing for
>> the project.  Maybe an AMD64 x86_64 laptop is too much at first and
>> maybe we should start with one of the arm or mips laptops supported
>
> Who is "we"?
>
>> well by OpenBSD.  I don't know just a dream I have.
>
> Why go around telling people your dreams?  Why not do all this yourself?
> You don't need a mailing list for it.  Is it your dream that others in the
> group "we" will do what you dream?
>
> What you are doing here is advocating that other people do that which
> you don't and won't do yourself.  To be honest, it comes off small minded.
>

There are many possible assumptions of what they could have meant, I don't
think there is a need to be overly harsh to their attitude. For all I know
they might be an enthusiastic college student who wants to help.
Voicing your ideas and finding like minded people is a good motivator for
doing a project.

@Kyle, I do appreciate your enthusiasm.
That said, I do agree that going straight to hardware is far from what is
possible as a short term goal.

I think it is better by starting to do small things,

I've already asked the newsletters to hopefully include the recent news about
wireguard patches (even though it is not confirmed to be included yet, please
don't kill me over this) and hopefully I get a positive response :) .

I know this is not a lot but I am hoping slowly things can turn
up for the better.

As always, am open any other ideas you might have.

(I tried to be terse, I think I failed)

Cheers and stay safe,
Aisha

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Re: Improvements and thoughts on small projects for advocacy

Theo de Raadt-2
Aisha Tammy <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 5/14/20 7:24 PM, Theo de Raadt wrote:
> > Kyle Willett <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> >> I think OpenBSD advocacy could do more too.  I read on an open source
> >> news site that Lenovo is going to start offering a Fedora Linux option
> >> on their Thinkpad lineup and already certifies some for Red Hat
> >> Enterprise Linux.  I think it would be great if we could get some
> >
> > Who is "we"?
> >                            
> >> hardware manufacturer to certify OpenBSD on a device and offer it
> >> pre-installed as an OS choice.  I think that would be a good thing for
> >> the project.  Maybe an AMD64 x86_64 laptop is too much at first and
> >> maybe we should start with one of the arm or mips laptops supported
> >
> > Who is "we"?
> >
> >> well by OpenBSD.  I don't know just a dream I have.
> >
> > Why go around telling people your dreams?  Why not do all this yourself?
> > You don't need a mailing list for it.  Is it your dream that others in the
> > group "we" will do what you dream?
> >
> > What you are doing here is advocating that other people do that which
> > you don't and won't do yourself.  To be honest, it comes off small minded.
> >
>
> There are many possible assumptions of what they could have meant, I don't
> think there is a need to be overly harsh to their attitude. For all I know
> they might be an enthusiastic college student who wants to help.

I suspect you are an enthusiastic person who wants to send a mail to us,
telling us what to do.

But that which you dream of?  You won't left a leg to do any of it.

> Voicing your ideas and finding like minded people is a good motivator for
> doing a project.

No, doing work is what makes projects.

You are just typing words.
 
> @Kyle, I do appreciate your enthusiasm.
> That said, I do agree that going straight to hardware is far from what is
> possible as a short term goal.
>
> I think it is better by starting to do small things,

I agree it is better to DO THINGS.

But you are writing words.

> I've already asked the newsletters to hopefully include the recent news about
> wireguard patches (even though it is not confirmed to be included yet, please
> don't kill me over this) and hopefully I get a positive response :) .

The world is so full of writing about writing about doing stuff, but
short of people who actually do stuff.

You are one of those writers, it appears...

> I know this is not a lot but I am hoping slowly things can turn
> up for the better.
>
> As always, am open any other ideas you might have.
>
> (I tried to be terse, I think I failed)

What a waste of time.

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Re: Improvements and thoughts on small projects for advocacy

Aisha Tammy-4
On 5/14/20 8:52 PM, Theo de Raadt wrote:

> Aisha Tammy <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> On 5/14/20 7:24 PM, Theo de Raadt wrote:
>>> Kyle Willett <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I think OpenBSD advocacy could do more too.  I read on an open source
>>>> news site that Lenovo is going to start offering a Fedora Linux option
>>>> on their Thinkpad lineup and already certifies some for Red Hat
>>>> Enterprise Linux.  I think it would be great if we could get some
>>>
>>> Who is "we"?
>>>                            
>>>> hardware manufacturer to certify OpenBSD on a device and offer it
>>>> pre-installed as an OS choice.  I think that would be a good thing for
>>>> the project.  Maybe an AMD64 x86_64 laptop is too much at first and
>>>> maybe we should start with one of the arm or mips laptops supported
>>>
>>> Who is "we"?
>>>
>>>> well by OpenBSD.  I don't know just a dream I have.
>>>
>>> Why go around telling people your dreams?  Why not do all this yourself?
>>> You don't need a mailing list for it.  Is it your dream that others in the
>>> group "we" will do what you dream?
>>>
>>> What you are doing here is advocating that other people do that which
>>> you don't and won't do yourself.  To be honest, it comes off small minded.
>>>
>>
>> There are many possible assumptions of what they could have meant, I don't
>> think there is a need to be overly harsh to their attitude. For all I know
>> they might be an enthusiastic college student who wants to help.
>
> I suspect you are an enthusiastic person who wants to send a mail to us,
> telling us what to do.
>
Sorry if it seemed like that.
I am not telling anyone what to do. I am asking for suggestions on what I could
do more.

> But that which you dream of?  You won't left a leg to do any of it.
>
>> Voicing your ideas and finding like minded people is a good motivator for
>> doing a project.
>
> No, doing work is what makes projects.
>
> You are just typing words
>  
>> @Kyle, I do appreciate your enthusiasm.
>> That said, I do agree that going straight to hardware is far from what is
>> possible as a short term goal.
>>
>> I think it is better by starting to do small things,
>
> I agree it is better to DO THINGS.
>
> But you are writing words.

I do try to help in any small way that I can in ports@, though
I am not too good at it yet.

>
>> I've already asked the newsletters to hopefully include the recent news about
>> wireguard patches (even though it is not confirmed to be included yet, please
>> don't kill me over this) and hopefully I get a positive response :) .
>
> The world is so full of writing about writing about doing stuff, but
> short of people who actually do stuff.
>
> You are one of those writers, it appears...
>
>> I know this is not a lot but I am hoping slowly things can turn
>> up for the better.
>>
>> As always, am open any other ideas you might have.
>>
>> (I tried to be terse, I think I failed)
>
> What a waste of time.
>

In that case, could you tell what was the idea behind creating an
advocacy list, which on the site says: for promoting the use of OpenBSD ?

Is this not what it is?

I am also confused why so furious at me? I don't think I've done
anything horrible?

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Re: Improvements and thoughts on small projects for advocacy

Theo de Raadt-2
You've done nothing except believe that words are action.

Aisha Tammy <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 5/14/20 8:52 PM, Theo de Raadt wrote:
> > Aisha Tammy <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> >> On 5/14/20 7:24 PM, Theo de Raadt wrote:
> >>> Kyle Willett <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> I think OpenBSD advocacy could do more too.  I read on an open source
> >>>> news site that Lenovo is going to start offering a Fedora Linux option
> >>>> on their Thinkpad lineup and already certifies some for Red Hat
> >>>> Enterprise Linux.  I think it would be great if we could get some
> >>>
> >>> Who is "we"?
> >>>                            
> >>>> hardware manufacturer to certify OpenBSD on a device and offer it
> >>>> pre-installed as an OS choice.  I think that would be a good thing for
> >>>> the project.  Maybe an AMD64 x86_64 laptop is too much at first and
> >>>> maybe we should start with one of the arm or mips laptops supported
> >>>
> >>> Who is "we"?
> >>>
> >>>> well by OpenBSD.  I don't know just a dream I have.
> >>>
> >>> Why go around telling people your dreams?  Why not do all this yourself?
> >>> You don't need a mailing list for it.  Is it your dream that others in the
> >>> group "we" will do what you dream?
> >>>
> >>> What you are doing here is advocating that other people do that which
> >>> you don't and won't do yourself.  To be honest, it comes off small minded.
> >>>
> >>
> >> There are many possible assumptions of what they could have meant, I don't
> >> think there is a need to be overly harsh to their attitude. For all I know
> >> they might be an enthusiastic college student who wants to help.
> >
> > I suspect you are an enthusiastic person who wants to send a mail to us,
> > telling us what to do.
> >
> Sorry if it seemed like that.
> I am not telling anyone what to do. I am asking for suggestions on what I could
> do more.
>
> > But that which you dream of?  You won't left a leg to do any of it.
> >
> >> Voicing your ideas and finding like minded people is a good motivator for
> >> doing a project.
> >
> > No, doing work is what makes projects.
> >
> > You are just typing words
> >  
> >> @Kyle, I do appreciate your enthusiasm.
> >> That said, I do agree that going straight to hardware is far from what is
> >> possible as a short term goal.
> >>
> >> I think it is better by starting to do small things,
> >
> > I agree it is better to DO THINGS.
> >
> > But you are writing words.
>
> I do try to help in any small way that I can in ports@, though
> I am not too good at it yet.
>
> >
> >> I've already asked the newsletters to hopefully include the recent news about
> >> wireguard patches (even though it is not confirmed to be included yet, please
> >> don't kill me over this) and hopefully I get a positive response :) .
> >
> > The world is so full of writing about writing about doing stuff, but
> > short of people who actually do stuff.
> >
> > You are one of those writers, it appears...
> >
> >> I know this is not a lot but I am hoping slowly things can turn
> >> up for the better.
> >>
> >> As always, am open any other ideas you might have.
> >>
> >> (I tried to be terse, I think I failed)
> >
> > What a waste of time.
> >
>
> In that case, could you tell what was the idea behind creating an
> advocacy list, which on the site says: for promoting the use of OpenBSD ?
>
> Is this not what it is?
>
> I am also confused why so furious at me? I don't think I've done
> anything horrible?

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Re: Improvements and thoughts on small projects for advocacy

Justina Colmena
In reply to this post by Theo de Raadt-2


On May 14, 2020 4:52:05 PM AKDT, Theo de Raadt <[hidden email]> wrote:
>Aisha Tammy <[hidden email]> wrote:
> ...
>
>I suspect you are an enthusiastic person who wants to send a mail to
>us,
>telling us what to do.
>
>But that which you dream of?  You won't left a leg to do any of it.
>
Lift a leg? We simply cannot get our hands out of these proprietary computer hardware legal handcuffs anywhere in the U.S. or Canada to help out in any technical capacity.

>> Voicing your ideas and finding like minded people is a good motivator
>for
>> doing a project.
>
>No, doing work is what makes projects.
>
I'm not trying to be religious here, but Martin Luther and others have explained that we cannot make it to heaven or achieve success in this life by works of the law.

>
>What a waste of time.

"For what the law could not do, in that it was weak..."  Jesus!

--
Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.

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Re: Improvements and thoughts on small projects for advocacy

Theo de Raadt-2
In reply to this post by Justina Colmena
Justina Colmena ~biz <[hidden email]> wrote:


it must feel refreshing to rant about the things you find unfair
and yet won't lift a finger to actually change, oh except finger
after finger on a keyboard into a mailing list noone reads


> "We" are suffering from many of the same hardware problems you are, when you can't get documentation from the manufacturers of hardware devices, __without an NDA__, to write OpenBSD drivers for them.
>
>  * General bit rot: Rowhammer, hard drive crashes, etc.
>  * Proprietary patented intellectual property with "No user serviceable parts inside."
>  * "This product contains a _____ known to the State of California to cause cancer."
>  * "The NSA" with all the undocumented back doors for the cops in everything, the USA crypto export regulations.
>  * The FBI warnings on the movies, the Mounties in Canada and the State Troopers in the U.S., the copyrighted content, the child pornography, the firearms, the weed, and all sorts of other information deemed illegal for us to possess on our own computers.
>  * The "hack job" in the mainstream media: we're all "hackers" if we don't use Microsoft® Windows® on an approved Intel® microprocessor as approved by the corporate boss.
>  * The "evil maid" attack of some lady digging in a guy's computer with a private investigator or a subpoena for an anti-harassment civil suit or a restraining order or no-contact order or something like that.
>  * The drug dealers and the hit men on the "dark web", the Bitcoin miners and the crypto currency mining bots.
>  * The constant double-dealing between "full" KVM virtualization and Linux-kernel-only "paravirtualization" in the cloud.
>  * The SWAT teams with their doorbuster warrants for anybody who runs a "server."
>  * No IPv6 support anywhere under the sun.
>  * ...
>
> --
> Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.

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Re: Improvements and thoughts on small projects for advocacy

Theo de Raadt-2
In reply to this post by Justina Colmena
Justina Colmena ~biz <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
>
>
> On May 14, 2020 4:52:05 PM AKDT, Theo de Raadt <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >Aisha Tammy <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > ...
> >
> >I suspect you are an enthusiastic person who wants to send a mail to
> >us,
> >telling us what to do.
> >
> >But that which you dream of?  You won't left a leg to do any of it.
> >
> Lift a leg? We simply cannot get our hands out of these proprietary computer hardware legal handcuffs anywhere in the U.S. or Canada to help out in any technical capacity.

So you go find a mailing list noone in the industry reads,
and *cry* into it.

never know, it might change the world.  Or not.

> I'm not trying to be religious here, but Martin Luther and others have explained that we cannot make it to heaven or achieve success in this life by works of the law.

nor can you by crying about hardware injustice on a mailing list
read by noone

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Re: Improvements and thoughts on small projects for advocacy

Derek
Hello, my name’s Derek, I subscribed to this email list last year when I was attempting to build a home OpenBSD router. It worked however I’ve got intermediate command line skills at best and I switched over to pfSense for the GUI in order to configure VLANs and OpenVPN client.

I think an OpenBSD based router with a simplified GUI for easy setup of VPNs and VLANs paired with Unifi APs so more people can be empowered to setup secure and private home networks is a good thing.

I recently started a blog https://netpraetor.com/  advocating for data privacy and data security.

Protectlii hardware with coreboot and OpenBSD is a great combo!

https://protectli.com/


Sent from my iPhone

> On May 14, 2020, at 8:25 PM, Theo de Raadt <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Justina Colmena ~biz <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>
>>> On May 14, 2020 4:52:05 PM AKDT, Theo de Raadt <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> Aisha Tammy <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> ...
>>>
>>> I suspect you are an enthusiastic person who wants to send a mail to
>>> us,
>>> telling us what to do.
>>>
>>> But that which you dream of?  You won't left a leg to do any of it.
>>>
>> Lift a leg? We simply cannot get our hands out of these proprietary computer hardware legal handcuffs anywhere in the U.S. or Canada to help out in any technical capacity.
>
> So you go find a mailing list noone in the industry reads,
> and *cry* into it.
>
> never know, it might change the world.  Or not.
>
>> I'm not trying to be religious here, but Martin Luther and others have explained that we cannot make it to heaven or achieve success in this life by works of the law.
>
> nor can you by crying about hardware injustice on a mailing list
> read by noone
>
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Re: Improvements and thoughts on small projects for advocacy

Kyle Willett
I did some research about OpenBSD in my graduate cyber security class
and came to the conclusion that more people should run OpenBSD on
company computers compared to Windows and even compared to the likes
of Linux and FreeBSD.  That extra security is just so important.
Businesses are never going to buy Windows laptops and then switch them
to OpenBSD.  They want a support contract and someone to call when
something does not work.  The OpenBSD project has a small developer
base and always seems to be struggling for money.  It is my thinking
that if the team in charge of OpenBSD development offered hardware
with OpenBSD supported 100% on it and sold with it preinstalled that
OpenBSD laptops could become a niche offering like Chromebooks but
fully open source.  My apologies for upsetting Theo de Raadt himself
though.  Just thinking about how the project could get more awareness
of OpenBSD out there and more people using the OS.  Few hardware
companies bother with OpenBSD support because it has such a small
market share.  Just sharing my ideas on how to get more people aware
of the project and using the OS as their daily driver.

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Re: Improvements and thoughts on small projects for advocacy

Justina Colmena
In reply to this post by Theo de Raadt-2


On May 14, 2020 5:24:38 PM AKDT, Theo de Raadt <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>So you go find a mailing list noone in the industry reads,
>and *cry* into it.
>
>never know, it might change the world.  Or not.
>
"In the industry" again. Here we go again. I've been banlisted and blackballed out of all those "labor unions" since my youth. They had a "VICA" club at my high school many years ago, and I was not invited.

>> I'm not trying to be religious here, but Martin Luther and others
>have explained that we cannot make it to heaven or achieve success in
>this life by works of the law.
>
>nor can you by crying about hardware injustice on a mailing list
>read by noone

Certain "working class" people aggressively claim all sorts of collective bargaining, work-related and employment rights and then they ride roughshod over basic human rights for everyone and everything else. It's the Mob. And then the bosses play right into their hands with delusions of "intellectual property," 100-year corporate copyrights, employee non-compete agreements and non-disclosure agreements, business-method patent portfolios, selectively enforced trademarks on common dictionary words, and government top secret classification for business trade secrets.

Then the "free software" folks hired some of the same lawyers to come up with the "GPL," and there's an "established" Linux kernel to boot all that GNU software, and the Santa Cruz Operation ("SCO" out of the same vice district as Las Vegas, Salt Lake City, and Denver) hit them with poisoned code, cartel copyright allegations, and a magic solution, "Well, if you didn't release such reliable mission-critical code to the public, all would be well for the mil-spec employment market in Silicon Valley (San Francisco, California.)

Noone? I don't know. In French they say «personne» unless they're lawyers, in which case they say «nulle personne» … they're workers. You can't fire them. They never quit. They're always "serving" you in court or at law with something or another you didn't order and you don't want.

--
Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.

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Re: Improvements and thoughts on small projects for advocacy

Theo de Raadt-2
In reply to this post by Kyle Willett
OpenBSD should become a company selling hardware?

That idea is complete bullshit.

I have a better idea.  How about the people who don't do anything
except come up with stupid ideas go away.

Kyle Willett <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I did some research about OpenBSD in my graduate cyber security class
> and came to the conclusion that more people should run OpenBSD on
> company computers compared to Windows and even compared to the likes
> of Linux and FreeBSD.  That extra security is just so important.
> Businesses are never going to buy Windows laptops and then switch them
> to OpenBSD.  They want a support contract and someone to call when
> something does not work.  The OpenBSD project has a small developer
> base and always seems to be struggling for money.  It is my thinking
> that if the team in charge of OpenBSD development offered hardware
> with OpenBSD supported 100% on it and sold with it preinstalled that
> OpenBSD laptops could become a niche offering like Chromebooks but
> fully open source.  My apologies for upsetting Theo de Raadt himself
> though.  Just thinking about how the project could get more awareness
> of OpenBSD out there and more people using the OS.  Few hardware
> companies bother with OpenBSD support because it has such a small
> market share.  Just sharing my ideas on how to get more people aware
> of the project and using the OS as their daily driver.

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Re: Improvements and thoughts on small projects for advocacy

Theo de Raadt-2
In reply to this post by Justina Colmena
That's incredibly insightful!

You are precisely the true leader OpenBSD needs to compete in the
harsh corporate environment that gives us no respect!



Justina Colmena ~biz <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
>
>
> On May 14, 2020 5:24:38 PM AKDT, Theo de Raadt <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> >So you go find a mailing list noone in the industry reads,
> >and *cry* into it.
> >
> >never know, it might change the world.  Or not.
> >
> "In the industry" again. Here we go again. I've been banlisted and blackballed out of all those "labor unions" since my youth. They had a "VICA" club at my high school many years ago, and I was not invited.
>
> >> I'm not trying to be religious here, but Martin Luther and others
> >have explained that we cannot make it to heaven or achieve success in
> >this life by works of the law.
> >
> >nor can you by crying about hardware injustice on a mailing list
> >read by noone
>
> Certain "working class" people aggressively claim all sorts of collective bargaining, work-related and employment rights and then they ride roughshod over basic human rights for everyone and everything else. It's the Mob. And then the bosses play right into their hands with delusions of "intellectual property," 100-year corporate copyrights, employee non-compete agreements and non-disclosure agreements, business-method patent portfolios, selectively enforced trademarks on common dictionary words, and government top secret classification for business trade secrets.
>
> Then the "free software" folks hired some of the same lawyers to come up with the "GPL," and there's an "established" Linux kernel to boot all that GNU software, and the Santa Cruz Operation ("SCO" out of the same vice district as Las Vegas, Salt Lake City, and Denver) hit them with poisoned code, cartel copyright allegations, and a magic solution, "Well, if you didn't release such reliable mission-critical code to the public, all would be well for the mil-spec employment market in Silicon Valley (San Francisco, California.)
>
> Noone? I don't know. In French they say «personne» unless they're lawyers, in which case they say «nulle personne» … they're workers. You can't fire them. They never quit. They're always "serving" you in court or at law with something or another you didn't order and you don't want.
>
> --
> Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
>

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Re: Improvements and thoughts on small projects for advocacy

Austin Hook-2

On Thu, 14 May 2020, Theo de Raadt wrote:
> That's incredibly insightful!
>
> You are precisely the true leader OpenBSD needs to compete in the
> harsh corporate environment that gives us no respect!

Maybe I was wrong.  I thought that "advocacy" had disappeared from the
official collection of mailing lists.  But in any case I see it does
appear there now.  Maybe just restored?

Used to be a good place to let distractions have there place, so as not to
bother the developers.

Looks like it's back on that track...  

Probably works just as well (or badly) without all the cc's.

:-)

A.


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