How to get install media?

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How to get install media?

Karel Kulhavy
I would expect that I would go to openbsd.org, click "getting OpenBSD", then
there would be clickable selection of version, then a selection of platform,
and finally a mirror country and FTP/HTTP selection.

What I get instead is this:
http://openbsd.org/ftp.html

There is only a list of mirrors and some auxilliary information.
If I go to a mirror I get into a directory structure but have no idea
in which directory I should take which ISO file. For example should I
go into "4.0" or "snapshots"? Should I take cd40.iso or cdemu40.iso?
And what should I do with the ISO when I boot it up?

I am wondering what you are going to reply to this. Are you going to understand
me or get annoyed that I imply that the OpenBSD WWW is not perfect?  Are you
gonna fix it or tell me to send a patch? Or are you gonna say that it must stay
the way it is now?

Gentoo folks were annoyed every time I pointed out some detail where the
usability of their website could be improved. Finally it came out that the
usability of Gentoo Linux is not their goal. As a reaction I switched from
Gentoo Linux to OpenBSD in a hope that in OpenBSD the usability is better.  The
reason was: I need to use the system, therefore I care about usability.

My first experiences with OpenBSD seemed to confirmed the hypothesis that
OpenBSD developers care about usability. The manpages are on the website and
they are on the system, in both cases very complete. The install process went
smoothly too.

However people can have different motivations when programming. It seems to be
there are two kind of people. The first kind programs because it's fun and
because he likes the feeling that he is good. The other kind programs because
he likes the feeling he can produce something that brings happiness to both the
others and himself. Let's call them the Selfish Free Software Programmer and
the Altruistic Free Software Programmer.

The difference is not important as long as their product works for you and is
easy to use. But the difference kicks in as soon as you run into problems.  The
Selfish one says: "sorry, but I wrote it to scratch my own itch, no warranty
implied, be happy with it because I gave it to you for free. If you criticize
me any more, you are a moron and you will be kicked." The Altruistic one says:
"can you describe the problem in more detail so I can fix it?", or gives a
valid argument why it is actually better for the user when it is the way it is.

Naturally, the Altruistic one will have happier users and possibly even more
users in the long run than the Selfish one.

I have even a feeling that being the Altruistic one doesn't involve
significantly more programming and maintenance work than being the Selfish one.
It may quite well be just a matter of attitude.

CL<

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Re: How to get install media?

marcus.popp (Bugzilla)
On 2006-11-20T11:24, Karel Kulhavy wrote:

> I would expect that I would go to openbsd.org, click "getting OpenBSD", then
> there would be clickable selection of version, then a selection of platform,
> and finally a mirror country and FTP/HTTP selection.
>
> What I get instead is this:
> http://openbsd.org/ftp.html
>
> There is only a list of mirrors and some auxilliary information.
> If I go to a mirror I get into a directory structure but have no idea
> in which directory I should take which ISO file. For example should I
> go into "4.0" or "snapshots"? Should I take cd40.iso or cdemu40.iso?
> And what should I do with the ISO when I boot it up?
>
> I am wondering what you are going to reply to this.

I say: Read the FAQ.

http://www.openbsd.org/faq/faq3.html#ISO

so long,

Marcus.

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Re: How to get install media?

Joel Goguen-2
In reply to this post by Karel Kulhavy
I fail to see how this is difficult.  Could it be better?  Sure,
probably it could be.  But let's try this:

I go to the OpenBSD home page and click on "Getting OpenBSD".  I see a
list of mirrors, so I choose the one closest to me - the main site in
Calgary.  Then I see a bunch of versions and choose the one I want -
4.0.  It's a good idea to read the README file when one exists (using
Windows taught me that plenty well), so I do that.  It doesn't tell me
about how to obtain OpenBSD from FTP, but I learn about a file called
floppy40.fs for i386, which happens to be my architecture.  In the i386
directory, there's a file called INSTALL.i386, which has an incredibly
helpful section entitled "Getting the OpenBSD System onto Useful Media".
 That, combined with the sections following, essentially walk you
through the installation process.  Is it perfect?  No, but it's a lot
better than any other installation docs I'd seen before choosing OpenBSD
back at version 3.4.

As for whether OpenBSD is focused on usability, that's for the
developers, but I think the focus is security.  Usability is incredible
though, what I can do with OpenBSD with only man pages is leaps and
bounds beyond what I could do with Linux with man pages and step-by-step
walk-throughs and anything else I could find.  Doing most of this in
Windows would be nearly or completely impossible.

I suggest that before you ask questions you check the following:
        - A file named README where one exists
        - The FAQ at http://www.openbsd.org/
        - The appropriate mailing list archives at http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/
Any question I've ever had (and I switched from Windows, Linux came
after OpenBSD) has been answered in at least one of these places.

Karel Kulhavy wrote:

> I would expect that I would go to openbsd.org, click "getting OpenBSD", then
> there would be clickable selection of version, then a selection of platform,
> and finally a mirror country and FTP/HTTP selection.
>
> What I get instead is this:
> http://openbsd.org/ftp.html
>
> There is only a list of mirrors and some auxilliary information.
> If I go to a mirror I get into a directory structure but have no idea
> in which directory I should take which ISO file. For example should I
> go into "4.0" or "snapshots"? Should I take cd40.iso or cdemu40.iso?
> And what should I do with the ISO when I boot it up?
>
> I am wondering what you are going to reply to this. Are you going to understand
> me or get annoyed that I imply that the OpenBSD WWW is not perfect?  Are you
> gonna fix it or tell me to send a patch? Or are you gonna say that it must stay
> the way it is now?
>
> Gentoo folks were annoyed every time I pointed out some detail where the
> usability of their website could be improved. Finally it came out that the
> usability of Gentoo Linux is not their goal. As a reaction I switched from
> Gentoo Linux to OpenBSD in a hope that in OpenBSD the usability is better.  The
> reason was: I need to use the system, therefore I care about usability.
>
> My first experiences with OpenBSD seemed to confirmed the hypothesis that
> OpenBSD developers care about usability. The manpages are on the website and
> they are on the system, in both cases very complete. The install process went
> smoothly too.
>
> However people can have different motivations when programming. It seems to be
> there are two kind of people. The first kind programs because it's fun and
> because he likes the feeling that he is good. The other kind programs because
> he likes the feeling he can produce something that brings happiness to both the
> others and himself. Let's call them the Selfish Free Software Programmer and
> the Altruistic Free Software Programmer.
>
> The difference is not important as long as their product works for you and is
> easy to use. But the difference kicks in as soon as you run into problems.  The
> Selfish one says: "sorry, but I wrote it to scratch my own itch, no warranty
> implied, be happy with it because I gave it to you for free. If you criticize
> me any more, you are a moron and you will be kicked." The Altruistic one says:
> "can you describe the problem in more detail so I can fix it?", or gives a
> valid argument why it is actually better for the user when it is the way it is.
>
> Naturally, the Altruistic one will have happier users and possibly even more
> users in the long run than the Selfish one.
>
> I have even a feeling that being the Altruistic one doesn't involve
> significantly more programming and maintenance work than being the Selfish one.
> It may quite well be just a matter of attitude.
>
> CL<
>


--
Joel Goguen
Bachelor of Computer Science III
University of New Brunswick
http://iapetus.dyndns.org/

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Re: How to get install media?

Rod.. Whitworth-2
In reply to this post by Karel Kulhavy
On Mon, 20 Nov 2006 11:24:32 +0100, Karel Kulhavy wrote:

>I would expect that I would go to openbsd.org, click "getting OpenBSD", then
>there would be clickable selection of version, then a selection of platform,
>and finally a mirror country and FTP/HTTP selection.
>
>What I get instead is this:
>http://openbsd.org/ftp.html
>
>There is only a list of mirrors and some auxilliary information.
>If I go to a mirror I get into a directory structure but have no idea
>in which directory I should take which ISO file. For example should I
>go into "4.0" or "snapshots"? Should I take cd40.iso or cdemu40.iso?
>And what should I do with the ISO when I boot it up?
>
>I am wondering what you are going to reply to this. Are you going to understand
>me or get annoyed that I imply that the OpenBSD WWW is not perfect?  Are you
>gonna fix it or tell me to send a patch? Or are you gonna say that it must stay
>the way it is now?

As I said in my previous reply: You have not studied the web pages and
the linked documents very well. If you are not going to then it's best
if you forget OpenBSD.

See another comment further down.

>
>Gentoo folks were annoyed every time I pointed out some detail where the
>usability of their website could be improved. Finally it came out that the
>usability of Gentoo Linux is not their goal. As a reaction I switched from
>Gentoo Linux to OpenBSD in a hope that in OpenBSD the usability is better.  The
>reason was: I need to use the system, therefore I care about usability.
>
>My first experiences with OpenBSD seemed to confirmed the hypothesis that
>OpenBSD developers care about usability. The manpages are on the website and
>they are on the system, in both cases very complete. The install process went
>smoothly too.
>
>However people can have different motivations when programming. It seems to be
>there are two kind of people. The first kind programs because it's fun and
>because he likes the feeling that he is good. The other kind programs because
>he likes the feeling he can produce something that brings happiness to both the
>others and himself. Let's call them the Selfish Free Software Programmer and
>the Altruistic Free Software Programmer.
>
>The difference is not important as long as their product works for you and is
>easy to use. But the difference kicks in as soon as you run into problems.  The
>Selfish one says: "sorry, but I wrote it to scratch my own itch, no warranty
>implied, be happy with it because I gave it to you for free. If you criticize
>me any more, you are a moron and you will be kicked." The Altruistic one says:
>"can you describe the problem in more detail so I can fix it?", or gives a
>valid argument why it is actually better for the user when it is the way it is.
>
The OpenBSD developers have stated many times that they write code for
their own enjoyment and use. That is not a secret.

Thankfully they make their work freely available to the world. The
price for beginners (and experts too, really) is to read the
documentation. Every bit that is relevant to the current need of the
person concerned.

>Naturally, the Altruistic one will have happier users and possibly even more
>users in the long run than the Selfish one.
OpenBSD is <NOT> about World Domination (tm Linus Torvalds) nor about
market share. Those are irrelevancies. High quality, secure code is the
aim. Be glad you can get it as easily as you can.

>
>I have even a feeling that being the Altruistic one doesn't involve
>significantly more programming and maintenance work than being the Selfish one.
>It may quite well be just a matter of attitude.

Misplaced altruism can be a good way to build a cohort of blind
followers of "How-Tos" who just whine when they meet the smallest
obstacle that happens because they are reading an out of date recipe
instead of a current FAQ or man-page.

The altruism of the developers is considerable: You can download their
code without paying for it. Where else can you get that quality at that
price? Please don't tell me about some wonderful(?) Linux distro -  I
was an IBM Linux instructor for years and I turned down any more Linux
assignments about two years ago because I couldn't find any seriously
well audited and debugged and secure distros.

OpenBSD  is an Operating System and Linux (distro) is a kernel and a
collection of programs to run on it.

I'll choose the OBSD developers' code quality and attention to detail
over marketroid "altruism"  to win more market share any day.

The latter rather reminds me of the old saying that "Sincerity is
everything. Once you can fake that, you've got it made!"


From the land "down under": Australia.
Do we look <umop apisdn> from up over?

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Re: How to get install media?

Jurjen Oskam
On Mon, Nov 20, 2006 at 10:14:29PM +1100, Rod.. Whitworth wrote:

> Thankfully they make their work freely available to the world. The
> price for beginners (and experts too, really) is to read the
> documentation.

I'd like to remark that I don't feel that I'm paying a price when I'm
reading/using the OpenBSD documentation. Quite the opposite, in fact:
having documentation like this is something I gladly pay a price *for*.

--
Jurjen Oskam

Savage's Law of Expediency:
        You want it bad, you'll get it bad.

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Re: How to get install media?

Otto Moerbeek
In reply to this post by Karel Kulhavy
On Mon, 20 Nov 2006, Karel Kulhavy wrote:

> I would expect that I would go to openbsd.org, click "getting OpenBSD", then
> there would be clickable selection of version, then a selection of platform,
> and finally a mirror country and FTP/HTTP selection.
>
> What I get instead is this:
> http://openbsd.org/ftp.html
>
> There is only a list of mirrors and some auxilliary information.
> If I go to a mirror I get into a directory structure but have no idea
> in which directory I should take which ISO file. For example should I
> go into "4.0" or "snapshots"? Should I take cd40.iso or cdemu40.iso?
> And what should I do with the ISO when I boot it up?

These things are explained in "Installing OpenBSD", this link is on
the main page.

>
> I am wondering what you are going to reply to this. Are you going to understand
> me or get annoyed that I imply that the OpenBSD WWW is not perfect?  Are you
> gonna fix it or tell me to send a patch? Or are you gonna say that it must stay
> the way it is now?

Of course he web site is not perfect. But that doesn't mean you
proposal will improve it. The bare fact that the information is not
presented exactly like you want it to is not enough to change the
site.

[snip]

> Naturally, the Altruistic one will have happier users and possibly even more
> users in the long run than the Selfish one.

Don't talk about altruism. Producing OpenBSD is one big giant act of
altruism.

> I have even a feeling that being the Altruistic one doesn't involve
> significantly more programming and maintenance work than being the Selfish one.
> It may quite well be just a matter of attitude.

We expect our users to have a brain, and spend time reading and
understanding the documentation.  Of course that is mostly an attitude
thing.

        -Otto

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Re: How to get install media?

Karel Kulhavy
In reply to this post by marcus.popp (Bugzilla)
On Mon, Nov 20, 2006 at 10:42:27AM +0000, Marcus Popp wrote:

> On 2006-11-20T11:24, Karel Kulhavy wrote:
> > I would expect that I would go to openbsd.org, click "getting OpenBSD", then
> > there would be clickable selection of version, then a selection of platform,
> > and finally a mirror country and FTP/HTTP selection.
> >
> > What I get instead is this:
> > http://openbsd.org/ftp.html
> >
> > There is only a list of mirrors and some auxilliary information.
> > If I go to a mirror I get into a directory structure but have no idea
> > in which directory I should take which ISO file. For example should I
> > go into "4.0" or "snapshots"? Should I take cd40.iso or cdemu40.iso?
> > And what should I do with the ISO when I boot it up?
> >
> > I am wondering what you are going to reply to this.
>
> I say: Read the FAQ.
>
> http://www.openbsd.org/faq/faq3.html#ISO

LOL, "The official OpenBSD CD-ROM layout is copyright Theo de Raadt. Theo does
not permit people to redistribute images of the official OpenBSD CDs." :)

A layout of silicon chip can be copyrighted, but I don't believe a directory
listing of a CD can be. Can anyone point me to a law which is prohibiting this?
I can always state that I learnt the listing of Theo's contents from a friend,
and downloaded the files myself and put them there in the same order.

Copyright is on a parcitular representation of intellectual work. It doesn't
work like a trade secret!

In my opinion, this just damages the reputation of OpenBSD (like the logos
which are not free either) and doesn't really prevent anyone. People can
give a copy to a friend, and even if it were illegal (which I doubt), Theo
doesn't have enough power to hunt all these "criminals".

It's also impractical for users - downloading the ISO is quick, ordering
surely not.

if I can't download CDs and use them for installation, I can either try to
download them from P2P (which is legal here, as long as you don't share
anything proprietary), or do a network install. I am not surely going
to by the CD's from Theo de RI^HAAdt!  So Theo is not gonna get these
money anyway. But he already got some money from me because I bought some
T-shirts.

What I suggest is a system of getting money which works reliably. Does Theo
need money for his work? If yes, then it's nothing wrong, because Theo is a
system which has high operation costs (food, housing, clothing, holidays etc.)
and it makes sense to get money for the work. If he doesn't get any money, he
cannot continue with OpenBSD!

We want a system that works against copying. Which system against copying is
the only absolutely reliable? Not publishing it at all! So let Theo store his
new version and ask people for donations.  Until people cover the development
costs, it will lie in the freezer. After they bring in enough money, it will be
released 100% for free (no strings attached).

This system has couple of properties:
1) Theo always gets as much money as he needs and doesn't have to care about
his future, unless people aren't interested in OpenBSD at all (in that case
it's difficult to ask them to send money anyway).
2) If someone urgently needs the version, there is a way how to get it
immediately - just donate the remaining amount
3) If someone wants OpenBSD for free (as in free beer), he will eventually get
it - when the others have sent enough donations in.
4) disadvantage - developers who have write access to the CVS have to keep the
fixes secret, and the read-only access to the CVS must be frozen on the latest
published version.

To demonstrate that this system is not just a theoretical construct, I already
have this system in operation and it really works:

http://ronja.twibright.com/sponsors.php

Maybe you think the system is worse than the current one, because always almost
one version less would be published. But what if without this system, Theo
actually gets less money and has to struggle more and consequently has less
time for OpenBSD and the development goes slower?

What I also don't like on the current arrangement is that if I sent a donation,
I see just my name, not the amount. This way it's not possible to see how much
money Theo already have made and if it's adequate to the development effort.
What if he gets a lot of donation, silently indulges in sensual joys and just
pretends that he's running short of money? :) Another possible explanation for
this arrangement is that he doesn't want the tax authority to see it ;-)

I believe that listing the amount of money and sorting the biggest contributors
first would actually encourage people to send higher amounts. I would like these
money to show also contributions from T-shirts.

CL<
>
> so long,
>
> Marcus.

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Re: How to get install media?

marcus.popp (Bugzilla)
I stop feeding you...

Live long (hopefully with linux),

Marcus.

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Re: How to get install media?

beranger5ca (Bugzilla)
In reply to this post by Karel Kulhavy
--- Karel Kulhavy <[hidden email]> wrote:
> LOL, "The official OpenBSD CD-ROM layout is copyright Theo de Raadt.
> Theo does not permit people to redistribute images of the official
> OpenBSD CDs." :)
>
> A layout of silicon chip can be copyrighted, but I don't believe a
> directory listing of a CD can be. Can anyone point me to a law which
> is prohibiting this?

Sorry to mix in such a `discussion`, but someone makes a severe confusion
between:
-- copyright
-- trademark
-- patent
-- license
...

Having the copyright over a certain form of material expression merely
expresses the fact that it is _you_ the author of it. You don't have to
register it as a trademark, You don't have to patent the directory layout.
But it is _you_ (err.. TdR, I mean) the author of the poem.

If the author of a work denies the right to distribute verbatim copies of its
work, it's only one of its statutory rights!

The CDs layout can also be seen as an artistic creation, if this is easier
for you.

Running OpenBSD does not necessarily mean to install it from _those_ CDs,
should you want _not_ to support the project.

But yes, I know of ISO images of CD1 being illegally distributed through FTP,
and Theo has not sued anyone. At this point, it's more a question of honor, I
guess. Jerks will copy the CDs, honest people will either buy them, or will
they perform a net install.

> In my opinion, this just damages the reputation of OpenBSD
> (like the logos which are not free either)

Non-free logos? A trademark issue. Are you from the Debian Project? Can't
stand Firefox logo not being "free"?

Jesus Christ, Karel, try to think a little before throwing accusations!

Theo is Canadian, but a comprehensive book on "Patent, Copyright & Trademark"
is here:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1413301967/

Cheers,
Biranger
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com 

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Re: How to get install media?

Merv Hammer
In reply to this post by Karel Kulhavy
On Mon, 20 Nov 2006, Karel Kulhavy wrote:

[...snip long, pompous rant]

Do you have anything technical and/or interesting to say?  If you don't,
then with all due respect, please go away.

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Re: How to get install media?

polarapfel
In reply to this post by beranger5ca (Bugzilla)
Hi there,

On Nov 20, 2006, at 4:17 PM, Radu-Cristian FOTESCU wrote:

...
> But yes, I know of ISO images of CD1 being illegally distributed  
> through FTP...

Which always has been and always will be a great way to get yourself  
an OpenBSD version with builtin rootkits. :-)

For those to closefisted and ungrateful to just order the CDs from  
OpenBSD at the cost of silly 40something there is always the option  
to build a bootable install CD yourself from the stuff on the FTP  
servers. It's really not that hard to use Google...

regards,
Tobias

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Patches for website?

Karel Kulhavy
In reply to this post by Karel Kulhavy
On Mon, Nov 20, 2006 at 06:43:29AM -0600, Kenny Mann wrote:

> Number 1: Expect to read. If you don't like, go to Ubuntu or something
> else. The OpenBSD group *expects* you to have done your homework.
> Archives exists, extremely well documented man pages exists, and Google
> is going to be your friend in some situations.
>
> More responses inline, where appropriate.
>
> Karel Kulhavy wrote:
> >I would expect that I would go to openbsd.org, click "getting OpenBSD",
> >then
> >there would be clickable selection of version, then a selection of
> >platform,
> >and finally a mirror country and FTP/HTTP selection.
> >
> >What I get instead is this:
> >http://openbsd.org/ftp.html
> >
> >There is only a list of mirrors and some auxilliary information.
> >If I go to a mirror I get into a directory structure but have no idea
> >in which directory I should take which ISO file.
>
> The file you are looking for doesn't exist in the manner you seek.
> The bandwidth for the ISO is just too great and people tend not to
> donate and simply leech if an ISO is there.
>
> >For example should I
> >go into "4.0" or "snapshots"? Should I take cd40.iso or cdemu40.iso?
> >And what should I do with the ISO when I boot it up?
>
> Perhaps you are wanting this:
> http://www.openbsd.org/items.html#40
> It's only $50 for the 3cd collection (you never meantion what kind of
> hardware you are working with).
>
> If you are wanting an ISO then you are going to have to build one from
> the FTP mirror list. Did you read the README file and the appropriate
> followup files?
>
> I've written a HOWTO build an ISO, however I suggest you reading all
> this stuff and *then* looking for it -- so you know what all is going
> on. Yes, it's a ton of reading. Also, if you decide to build your own
> ISO because you can't afford the CD, then please donate what you can
> afford. Those funds go into the pot to make more releases.
>
> >I am wondering what you are going to reply to this. Are you going to
> >understand
> >me or get annoyed that I imply that the OpenBSD WWW is not perfect?  Are
> >you
> >gonna fix it or tell me to send a patch? Or are you gonna say that it must
> >stay
> >the way it is now?
>
> Always send patches.
> Don't get angry if they don't like your ideas as some of them are
> opinions and they may not agree.
>
>
> >Gentoo folks were annoyed every time I pointed out some detail where the
> >usability of their website could be improved. Finally it came out that the
> >usability of Gentoo Linux is not their goal. As a reaction I switched from
> >Gentoo Linux to OpenBSD in a hope that in OpenBSD the usability is better.
> >The
> >reason was: I need to use the system, therefore I care about usability.
>
> If that's your only reason, then may have a difficult time with OpenBSD.
> If usability is your *only* concern, then perhaps Ubuntu (or whatever
> flavor suits you). OpenBSD is going to make you do some learning for a
> while, which some find very enjoyable and others find it as a turn off.
> Be prepared to spend lots of time reading and learning.
>
> >My first experiences with OpenBSD seemed to confirmed the hypothesis that
> >OpenBSD developers care about usability. The manpages are on the website
> >and
> >they are on the system, in both cases very complete. The install process
> >went
> >smoothly too.
>
> Every OS cares about usability, it's just some have higher priorities
> that come first.
> Taken from OpenBSD's website: Our efforts emphasize portability,
> standardization, correctness, proactive security and integrated
> cryptography.
>
> Why don't you follow the same method of installing now as you did then?
>
> Notice how almost every response has been me saying "you should read".
> If you fail to read documentation that is already there, then you will
> summon the wrath of misc@ -- and rightly so. Seriously, go through all
> that reading. It'll teach you quite a lot on what is going on, what's
> changed, and why some things are the way they are.
>
> If all of this is a turn off for you, then you may want to consider

I can do reading. I have worked 10 years with Linux and I am a CS graduate and
work as an embedded C/ASM programmer.  I don't have problems disassembling
binary files if something doesn't work.  I managed my own Linux distro and
compiled it from sources. I just don't want to do work which is unnecessary
when I can spend the time developing some free technology project.

Do you mind if I think the instructions can be improved that I send a patch?
Does it make sense to spend time on this? Or is 60% of these patches going to
be discarded?

> going to some Linux distro (I believe Ubuntu and it's ilk are the Flavor

I said usability. If it's broken and they refuse to fix it, then it's unusable.
Linux kernel cannot switch virtual terminals without ocassional crash because
of design flaw. And they refuse to fix it. I am not going to maintain a fork of
their work just because of couple of little bugs that are preventing me from
work. They also refuse to maintain basic documentation for the kernel on the
kernel website. Their kernel is good as a toy or student/academic masturbation,
or for geek image purpose, but not as a serious tool. The first thing I reach
for in a serious tool is the user manual. OpenBSD did their homework in this
case.

I don't care if it's text mode or clickable, I just care if I need to do
something that it takes little time (in which the OpenBSD manpages are
excellent).

CL<
> of the Week (TM); but if you want tweakyness then consider going back to
> Gentoo or using LFS). Otherwise begin your reading, young padowine.
>
> [snip'ed out rest of email; irrelevant to this discussion]
>
> --Kenny

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Re: How to get install media?

daniel.ramaley (Bugzilla)
In reply to this post by Joel Goguen-2
On Monday 20 November 2006 04:52, Joel Goguen wrote:
>As for whether OpenBSD is focused on usability, that's for the
>developers, but I think the focus is security.  Usability is
> incredible though, what I can do with OpenBSD with only man pages is
> leaps and bounds beyond what I could do with Linux with man pages and
> step-by-step walk-throughs and anything else I could find.  Doing
> most of this in Windows would be nearly or completely impossible.

This comment is spot on. The quality and security of OpenBSD are
extremely impressive, but even more impressive to me is that
documentation is given the same attention as the code. The result is
that usually all i need to learn how to do something new is the man
pages, or the man pages plus a small hint as to which man pages i
should be reading.

On most Linux distributions the man pages are not as helpful and i have
to search for HOWTO-style documents (which seem to be outdated more
often than not) or find newsgroup postings from other users who ran
into the same difficulty and posted a solution.

As for Windows, i've escaped from its clutches precisely because i found
it so frustrating to figure out how to do anything that Microsoft did
not specifically anticipate.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dan Ramaley                            Dial Center 118, Drake University
Network Programmer/Analyst             2407 Carpenter Ave
+1 515 271-4540                        Des Moines IA 50311 USA

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Re: Patches for website?

Nick Holland
In reply to this post by Karel Kulhavy
Karel Kulhavy wrote:
> Do you mind if I think the instructions can be improved that I send a patch?
> Does it make sense to spend time on this? Or is 60% of these patches going to
> be discarded?

If 60% of your ideas are discarded, you are probably committer-grade
material.  That means 40% of your ideas are better than anyone else
who's worked on it.  Those are pretty incredible numbers, actually.


Unfortunately, your writing isn't very clear, so I doubt your patches
would be accepted verbatim, but they might form the basis of
improvements (inspite of the rather annoying and rude tone of your
messages, I did find what may be the basis for an improvement in one
message from your mail barrage of today).

Doing formal patches, even if they aren't accepted verbatim also helps
one think through the entire process...and sometimes, you realize that
things aren't quite as simple as you think.

After all, I could give myself GREAT advice to make the website PERFECT:
   Explain everything.  Absolutely everything.
   With photographs and drawings.
   That displays well on a 640x480 Zaurus or a 1600x1280 screen.
   Written so my grandmother can understand it.
   But complete enough that it teaches Theo stuff he didn't know.
   All in two paragraphs (just can't keep some people's attention)
   And pretty enough to makes the cover of Martha Stewart's magazine...
   ...even using lynx.

That's easy.  The hard part is DOING it.

Nick.

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Re: How to get install media?

Karel Kulhavy
In reply to this post by Merv Hammer
On Mon, Nov 20, 2006 at 09:23:15AM -0600, Merv Hammer wrote:
> On Mon, 20 Nov 2006, Karel Kulhavy wrote:
>
> [...snip long, pompous rant]
>
> Do you have anything technical and/or interesting to say?  If you don't,
> then with all due respect, please go away.

Yes - I have discussed two technical topics:
- ergonomy (determines how easy it's to use the product)
- fundraising system (determines how well the project can be financially
  secured)

CL<

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Re: How to get install media?

Karel Kulhavy
In reply to this post by Otto Moerbeek
On Mon, Nov 20, 2006 at 02:29:55PM +0100, Otto Moerbeek wrote:

>
> On Mon, 20 Nov 2006, Karel Kulhavy wrote:
>
> > I would expect that I would go to openbsd.org, click "getting OpenBSD", then
> > there would be clickable selection of version, then a selection of platform,
> > and finally a mirror country and FTP/HTTP selection.
> >
> > What I get instead is this:
> > http://openbsd.org/ftp.html
> >
> > There is only a list of mirrors and some auxilliary information.
> > If I go to a mirror I get into a directory structure but have no idea
> > in which directory I should take which ISO file. For example should I
> > go into "4.0" or "snapshots"? Should I take cd40.iso or cdemu40.iso?
> > And what should I do with the ISO when I boot it up?
>
> These things are explained in "Installing OpenBSD", this link is on
> the main page.
>
> >
> > I am wondering what you are going to reply to this. Are you going to understand
> > me or get annoyed that I imply that the OpenBSD WWW is not perfect?  Are you
> > gonna fix it or tell me to send a patch? Or are you gonna say that it must stay
> > the way it is now?
>
> Of course he web site is not perfect. But that doesn't mean you
> proposal will improve it. The bare fact that the information is not

The website contains a lot of information units that is organized into a tree.
Now let's estimate somehow the probabilities of access of the individual
entries and construct a tree which minimizes the length of average path.

Do you think it's a good idea to organize the website this way?

CL<

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Re: How to get install media?

Greg Thomas-3
On 11/20/06, Karel Kulhavy <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Mon, Nov 20, 2006 at 02:29:55PM +0100, Otto Moerbeek wrote:
> >
> > On Mon, 20 Nov 2006, Karel Kulhavy wrote:
> >
> > > I would expect that I would go to openbsd.org, click "getting OpenBSD", then
> > > there would be clickable selection of version, then a selection of platform,
> > > and finally a mirror country and FTP/HTTP selection.
> > >
> > > What I get instead is this:
> > > http://openbsd.org/ftp.html
> > >
> > > There is only a list of mirrors and some auxilliary information.
> > > If I go to a mirror I get into a directory structure but have no idea
> > > in which directory I should take which ISO file. For example should I
> > > go into "4.0" or "snapshots"? Should I take cd40.iso or cdemu40.iso?
> > > And what should I do with the ISO when I boot it up?
> >
> > These things are explained in "Installing OpenBSD", this link is on
> > the main page.
> >
> > >
> > > I am wondering what you are going to reply to this. Are you going to understand
> > > me or get annoyed that I imply that the OpenBSD WWW is not perfect?  Are you
> > > gonna fix it or tell me to send a patch? Or are you gonna say that it must stay
> > > the way it is now?
> >
> > Of course he web site is not perfect. But that doesn't mean you
> > proposal will improve it. The bare fact that the information is not
>
> The website contains a lot of information units that is organized into a tree.
> Now let's estimate somehow the probabilities of access of the individual
> entries and construct a tree which minimizes the length of average path.
>
> Do you think it's a good idea to organize the website this way?

You made your suggestion.  You received a reply.  Nick didn't ask you
any questions.  There's no need to reply, move along.

Greg

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Re: How to get install media?

Woodchuck-2
In reply to this post by Karel Kulhavy
On Tue, 21 Nov 2006, Karel Kulhavy wrote:

> The website contains a lot of information units that is organized into a tree.

Only in the minds of some.

> Now let's estimate somehow the probabilities of access of the individual
> entries and construct a tree which minimizes the length of average path.
>
> Do you think it's a good idea to organize the website this way?

No.  First, you're not organizing the website, you're *re-organizing*
it, and you will disorient all users who are already familiar with
it.  You render obsolete possibly thousands of bookmark files,
both ones on computers, and ones in people's minds. You necessitate
the reprogramming of over 5000 html and related files, containing
the string "http://" over 43,000 times.  At present, I almost never
encounter a bogus or broken link on the website.  I like that.  It
did not get that way by chance, either.

Second, there is no guarantee that the shortest path results in the
most logical or intuitive ("emotional") semantic relationships
between each level of the hierarchy.  The website "tree" will be
traversed by human minds, not by some sort of data retrieval
tree-walker.  I am not sure that the human user even perceives the
website as a tree, either.  (It is certainly not implemented as
one.)  To experience a really treey info system, let me recommend
the gnuplot "help" facility, which is almost useless, although it
is logically organized.  I cannot think of a traditional human info
system that is "tree"-organized.  Can you?  (I am thinking of
libraries, encyclopedias, card files, telephone books and suchlike.)
The terrifying "gnuinfo" system has tree-like qualities, may devils
drag it from the face of the earth.

Many are the proposals to re-organize or reprogram systems with an
eye to helping the novice user or casual visitor.  I have always
offered against them the argument, to me persuasive, that the
user will only be a novice for a short period of time, and that the
system should be designed to favor the user later in his user-lifetime.
(We no longer sleep in cribs, eh?) On this principle we strongly
resist changing the name of "cd" to "ChangeDirectory", or "cc" to
"C-Compiler".  

"Intuitive obviousness" has a meaning that varies between individuals,
and over time within the same individual.

We should not confuse "easy to learn" with "easy to use", either.

However, your proposal that the top level of the website have an
explicit link to an "Upgrade" page has merit.  It is not immediately
apparent that upgrading is simply a subset of installing.  Such a
page might reference the FAQ articles of interest, or simply be a
link into the FAQ.  Some mention of mergemaster(ports) should be
made.  It probably already is.

Just as an exercise, tell me what is wrong with the ftp directory
"/pub/OpenBSD/4.0/i386" as the place where the public OpenBSD 4.0
PeeCee files reside.

And yet I note that you have installed the system and upgraded
it successfully.
       
Dave
--
  "Confound these wretched rodents! For every one I fling away,
               a dozen more vex me!" -- Doctor Doom

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Re: How to get install media?

Shane J Pearson
In reply to this post by Karel Kulhavy
Karel,

On 21/11/2006, at 1:18 AM, Karel Kulhavy wrote:

>> I say: Read the FAQ.
>>
>> http://www.openbsd.org/faq/faq3.html#ISO
>
> LOL, "The official OpenBSD CD-ROM layout is copyright Theo de  
> Raadt. Theo does
> not permit people to redistribute images of the official OpenBSD  
> CDs." :)

Those particular copyright terms are referring to the official  
OpenBSD CD's which you can buy. Not the install .ISO's provided by  
the OpenBSD project for download (which are for installs which grab  
the sets from a location other than that subsequently burned CD).

> A layout of silicon chip can be copyrighted, but I don't believe a  
> directory
> listing of a CD can be. Can anyone point me to a law which is  
> prohibiting this?
> I can always state that I learnt the listing of Theo's contents  
> from a friend,
> and downloaded the files myself and put them there in the same order.

As far as art goes, 3 musical notes, is unique enough to have  
copyright applied and upheld.

Theo consults a lawyer, so he therefore knows what he's doing in this  
regard.

> Copyright is on a parcitular representation of intellectual work.

Under the Berne copyright convention, copyright is applied by default  
to almost any unique thing you create. You own the copyright on your  
emails for example. You don't even need to place a copyright notice,  
unless you wish to deviate from your standard rights and be explicit  
with the terms.

You should Google for copyright info.


Shane J Pearson
shanejp netspace net au

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Re: How to get install media?

Jeff Nelson-3
In reply to this post by Karel Kulhavy
On Tue, Nov 21, 2006 at 08:52:17AM +0100, Karel Kulhavy wrote:

> On Mon, Nov 20, 2006 at 09:23:15AM -0600, Merv Hammer wrote:
> > On Mon, 20 Nov 2006, Karel Kulhavy wrote:
> >
> > [...snip long, pompous rant]
> >
> > Do you have anything technical and/or interesting to say?  If you don't,
> > then with all due respect, please go away.
>
> Yes - I have discussed two technical topics:
> - ergonomy (determines how easy it's to use the product)

No. You pontificated on your personal expectations of your experience
with the website. You failed to read the relevant documentation. How,
exactly does one discuss a technical topic without reading the docs?

> - fundraising system (determines how well the project can be financially
>   secured)

Fund-raising is NOT technical, it is administrative. Had you bothered to
peruse the archives, you would have learned that:
        1. This topic has been discussed ad nauseum.
        2. This topic is not open for discussion.

Have a great day!
-jeff