Few ideas how to help out to collect some money for OpenBSD and make it more popular

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Few ideas how to help out to collect some money for OpenBSD and make it more popular

ms-2
Hi,

I read today that there are some financial troubles
I have few question and ideas how to help out to collect some money for
OpenBSD
1. Myself I would buy as many as possible CDROM sets of OpenBSD 5.4 for
US $500 to distribute them for as low as possible price locally

2. If there some problems with payments it would be an idea to open an
account in Switzerland
or does OpenBSD already have a bank account in Switzerland ?

can someone present this idea to Theo ?

<Obilan> You could just donate
<ironm> Obilan, sure I can donate .. but it is what would spread OpenBSD
and make it more popular
<ironm> and I am myself not able to help with enough money

<ironm> 2. If there some problems with payments it would be an idea to
open an account in Switzerland
<ironm> or does OpenBSD already have a bank account in Switzerland ?

<cthuluh> if you want to collecte funds, just do it
<ironm> It is rather difficult to collect funds without original CD-set
<ironm> cthuluh, the point is that for example in Switzerland it is
difficult to  easily buy the OpenBSD 5.4 CD-set
<ironm> and at the moment it costs like 60 CHF

<ironm> my idea is just to import at once as much as possible to
minimize shipment costs and some custom charges (including 8% VAT) and
distribute it locally for a price below 25 or 30 CHF (swiss francs)
<ironm> from my point of view a price of 20, 25 maybe 30 Swiss Francs
can be accepted here locally
<ironm> If I had easy possibility to buy openBSD locally I would buy it
probably every time when I would know that all the money lands an the
account of OpenBSD

<klarrt3> since it's free can't you just burn some CD:s, sell them, and
donate the money back
<ironm> klarrt3, it doesn't make sense in my opinion
<ironm> only originally pressed CD media make sense
<klarrt3> it's a nice thought though, getting money for obsd

<zenlunatic> who are you going to sell them to?
<ironm> zenlunatic, everywhere .. Universities, IT people in Swiss banks
etc

<mahomet> i'm throwing some money towards OpenBSD Foundation. I use
FreeBSD myself but it'd be tragic if OpenBSD were to disappear

I hope that it is the proper mailings list. Thank you in advance for
feedback and new ideas.

Kind regards, Mark

--
[hidden email]

http://rsync.it-infrastrukturen.org

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Re: Few ideas how to help out to collect some money for OpenBSD and make it more popular

Ryan Kirk
What is the point of a Swiss bank account? Especially with FATCA? OpenBSD
has a nonprofit foundation behind it which looks a lot better than
funneling money through tax havens.

OpenBSD would have no problem receiving donations if it became something
most of its developers and users don't want it to become. Linux or FreeBSD
have shown the way to users and incone via various models (paid support,
enterprise features, long-term releases, automation tools, trying to be
everything to everyone, etc). While it is admirable that OpenBSD has
eschewed corporate sponsorship so that it has the freedom to be autonomous,
the price for that is, of course, money.

Instead of concentrating on users, it might be more worthwhile to focus a
campaign on pressuring vendors of enterprise *nix OS's that bundle OpenSSH
without contributing a nickel to the cause. This would be most effectively
done by buyers in large corporate environments, but this is also the most
unlikely group to care. Has any thought been given to media relations? A
story in Wired about the world's most underappreciated developers of some
of the most critical software could do enormous good. Rumors of an
impending implosion could work wonders on those Fortune 500 enterprise *nix
vendors who would much rather donate a hundred grand or so rather than
spend many times that to develop a critical component in-house.

I don't always agree with my OpenBSD friends so they are probably shaking
their head at this, but the project needs a strategic non-technical leader
for the foundation who can doggedly pursue these various avenues towards
multiple and diverse revenue streams without compromising the integrity of
the OS. Until then, the leaders are in de facto agreeance that the existing
model is what is best for the project. That is fine, but with it must come
the acceptance that few outside the security field will have an interest in
the OS, and thus few will have an interest in donating.

Sent from a mobile device
On Jan 17, 2014 8:09 PM, "Mark Schneider" <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I read today that there are some financial troubles
> I have few question and ideas how to help out to collect some money for
> OpenBSD
> 1. Myself I would buy as many as possible CDROM sets of OpenBSD 5.4 for US
> $500 to distribute them for as low as possible price locally
>
> 2. If there some problems with payments it would be an idea to open an
> account in Switzerland
> or does OpenBSD already have a bank account in Switzerland ?
>
> can someone present this idea to Theo ?
>
> <Obilan> You could just donate
> <ironm> Obilan, sure I can donate .. but it is what would spread OpenBSD
> and make it more popular
> <ironm> and I am myself not able to help with enough money
>
> <ironm> 2. If there some problems with payments it would be an idea to
> open an account in Switzerland
> <ironm> or does OpenBSD already have a bank account in Switzerland ?
>
> <cthuluh> if you want to collecte funds, just do it
> <ironm> It is rather difficult to collect funds without original CD-set
> <ironm> cthuluh, the point is that for example in Switzerland it is
> difficult to  easily buy the OpenBSD 5.4 CD-set
> <ironm> and at the moment it costs like 60 CHF
>
> <ironm> my idea is just to import at once as much as possible to minimize
> shipment costs and some custom charges (including 8% VAT) and distribute it
> locally for a price below 25 or 30 CHF (swiss francs)
> <ironm> from my point of view a price of 20, 25 maybe 30 Swiss Francs can
> be accepted here locally
> <ironm> If I had easy possibility to buy openBSD locally I would buy it
> probably every time when I would know that all the money lands an the
> account of OpenBSD
>
> <klarrt3> since it's free can't you just burn some CD:s, sell them, and
> donate the money back
> <ironm> klarrt3, it doesn't make sense in my opinion
> <ironm> only originally pressed CD media make sense
> <klarrt3> it's a nice thought though, getting money for obsd
>
> <zenlunatic> who are you going to sell them to?
> <ironm> zenlunatic, everywhere .. Universities, IT people in Swiss banks
> etc
>
> <mahomet> i'm throwing some money towards OpenBSD Foundation. I use
> FreeBSD myself but it'd be tragic if OpenBSD were to disappear
>
> I hope that it is the proper mailings list. Thank you in advance for
> feedback and new ideas.
>
> Kind regards, Mark
>
> --
> [hidden email]
>
> http://rsync.it-infrastrukturen.org

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Re: Few ideas how to help out to collect some money for OpenBSD and make it more popular

ms-2
Thanks for your suggestions Ryan.

On 18.01.2014 02:59, Ryan Kirk wrote:
>
> What is the point of a Swiss bank account? Especially with FATCA?
> OpenBSD has a nonprofit foundation behind it which looks a lot better
> than funneling money through tax havens.
>
Swiss bank accounts are the most safe worldwide.
Some donating people want to stay anonymous so it is neccessary to ofer
them such posibility.
Further it is rather difficult (in particular for foreign secret service
agancies) to monitor payments and/or to block money of nonprofit
fundations when the account is just in a neutral country like Switzerland.

> OpenBSD would have no problem receiving donations if it became
> something most of its developers and users don't want it to become.
> Linux or FreeBSD have shown the way to users and incone via various
> models (paid support, enterprise features, long-term releases,
> automation tools, trying to be everything to everyone, etc). While it
> is admirable that OpenBSD has eschewed corporate sponsorship so that
> it has the freedom to be autonomous, the price for that is, of course,
> money.
>
The main disadvantage of the current distribution model of OpenBSD is
(from my point of view) the limited availability of the same iso images
as in the distributed CD set. Most of other *BSD or Linux distribution
offer downloads of current iso images.

Image downloads are of course less secure as the "man in the middle"
could modify the image and fake the signatures.
Installations over the network are also not as secure as installing
offline from original CD or DVD image. As brand new hardware doesn't
have CD/DVD drive anymore an installation from a USB stick (with ROM
memory .. not flash due to security concerns) seems to be required.

Financial aspects of the current distribution model are another very
important topic.
Let say the swiss OpenBSD user pays for the CD set 50 CHF (swiss
francs). The price includes 8% VAT (= CHF 3.60)
The german OpenBSD user has to pay 19% VAT. If the price would be 40
Euro (EUR) the VAT is EUR 6.39.
Myself I prefer to donate than to pay unnecessary VAT or other handling
costs.

My conclusion and suggestion is to sell the CD media kit for the lowest
possible price (production costs plus additional charges like shipment
and custom costs, VAT etc) and ask users to donate $ 20 to $ 50 instead.

Another possibility is to enable downloads of original iso images for
people who donate yearly let say at least $20, 30 or more. My preffered
way is to donate once for few years in advance to assure continous
development of OpenBSD and cover operating costs of the required server
infrastructure.

> Instead of concentrating on users, it might be more worthwhile to
> focus a campaign on pressuring vendors of enterprise *nix OS's that
> bundle OpenSSH without contributing a nickel to the cause. This would
> be most effectively done by buyers in large corporate environments,
> but this is also the most unlikely group to care. Has any thought been
> given to media relations? A story in Wired about the world's most
> underappreciated developers of some of the most critical software
> could do enormous good. Rumors of an impending implosion could work
> wonders on those Fortune 500 enterprise *nix vendors who would much
> rather donate a hundred grand or so rather than spend many times that
> to develop a critical component in-house.
>
Big companies will donate regulary as they want continuos support and
maintenace for OpenBSD.

> I don't always agree with my OpenBSD friends so they are probably
> shaking their head at this, but the project needs a strategic
> non-technical leader for the foundation who can doggedly pursue these
> various avenues towards multiple and diverse revenue streams without
> compromising the integrity of the OS. Until then, the leaders are in
> de facto agreeance that the existing model is what is best for the
> project. That is fine, but with it must come the acceptance that few
> outside the security field will have an interest in the OS, and thus
> few will have an interest in donating.
>
I guess that Theo and some core developers are already excellent
non-technical leaders.
Every of your ideas and help are sure very helpful for them and the
OpenBSD community.

Kind regards, Mark

--
[hidden email]

http://rsync.it-infrastrukturen.org


> On Jan 17, 2014 8:09 PM, "Mark Schneider" <[hidden email]
> <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>
>     I read today that there are some financial troubles
>     I have few question and ideas how to help out to collect some
>     money for OpenBSD
>     1. Myself I would buy as many as possible CDROM sets of OpenBSD
>     5.4 for US $500 to distribute them for as low as possible price
>     locally
>
>     2. If there some problems with payments it would be an idea to
>     open an account in Switzerland
>     or does OpenBSD already have a bank account in Switzerland ?
>
>     can someone present this idea to Theo ?
>
>     <Obilan> You could just donate
>     <ironm> Obilan, sure I can donate .. but it is what would spread
>     OpenBSD and make it more popular
>     <ironm> and I am myself not able to help with enough money
>
>     <ironm> 2. If there some problems with payments it would be an
>     idea to open an account in Switzerland
>     <ironm> or does OpenBSD already have a bank account in Switzerland ?
>
>     <cthuluh> if you want to collecte funds, just do it
>     <ironm> It is rather difficult to collect funds without original
>     CD-set
>     <ironm> cthuluh, the point is that for example in Switzerland it
>     is difficult to  easily buy the OpenBSD 5.4 CD-set
>     <ironm> and at the moment it costs like 60 CHF
>
>     <ironm> my idea is just to import at once as much as possible to
>     minimize shipment costs and some custom charges (including 8% VAT)
>     and distribute it locally for a price below 25 or 30 CHF (swiss
>     francs)
>     <ironm> from my point of view a price of 20, 25 maybe 30 Swiss
>     Francs can be accepted here locally
>     <ironm> If I had easy possibility to buy openBSD locally I would
>     buy it probably every time when I would know that all the money
>     lands an the account of OpenBSD
>
>     <klarrt3> since it's free can't you just burn some CD:s, sell
>     them, and donate the money back
>     <ironm> klarrt3, it doesn't make sense in my opinion
>     <ironm> only originally pressed CD media make sense
>     <klarrt3> it's a nice thought though, getting money for obsd
>
>     <zenlunatic> who are you going to sell them to?
>     <ironm> zenlunatic, everywhere .. Universities, IT people in Swiss
>     banks etc
>
>     <mahomet> i'm throwing some money towards OpenBSD Foundation. I
>     use FreeBSD myself but it'd be tragic if OpenBSD were to disappear
>
>     I hope that it is the proper mailings list. Thank you in advance
>     for feedback and new ideas.

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Re: Few ideas how to help out to collect some money for OpenBSD and make it more popular

LeviaComm Networks NOC
Mark Schneider wrote:

> Thanks for your suggestions Ryan.
>
> On 18.01.2014 02:59, Ryan Kirk wrote:
>>
>> What is the point of a Swiss bank account? Especially with FATCA?
>> OpenBSD has a nonprofit foundation behind it which looks a lot better
>> than funneling money through tax havens.
>>
> Swiss bank accounts are the most safe worldwide.
> Some donating people want to stay anonymous so it is neccessary to ofer
> them such posibility.
> Further it is rather difficult (in particular for foreign secret service
> agancies) to monitor payments and/or to block money of nonprofit
> fundations when the account is just in a neutral country like Switzerland.
>

The NSA was able to bug Merkle's phone, I don't think they have a
problem with Swiss bank accounts.  Besides, who many people out there
would be embarrassed by donating to OpenBSD?  If they are trying to
stay anonymous, they could always use BitCoin; setting up a Swiss
account will only cause MI6/FSB/NSA/CIA to follow Theo and the rest of
the foundation so close they know what they ate for breakfast...
Beside that, do you even know what the fees are on numbered accounts?
Silence and anonymity isn't cheap.

>> OpenBSD would have no problem receiving donations if it became
>> something most of its developers and users don't want it to become.
>> Linux or FreeBSD have shown the way to users and incone via various
>> models (paid support, enterprise features, long-term releases,
>> automation tools, trying to be everything to everyone, etc). While it
>> is admirable that OpenBSD has eschewed corporate sponsorship so that
>> it has the freedom to be autonomous, the price for that is, of course,
>> money.
>>
> The main disadvantage of the current distribution model of OpenBSD is
> (from my point of view) the limited availability of the same iso images
> as in the distributed CD set. Most of other *BSD or Linux distribution
> offer downloads of current iso images.
>
> Image downloads are of course less secure as the "man in the middle"
> could modify the image and fake the signatures.
> Installations over the network are also not as secure as installing
> offline from original CD or DVD image. As brand new hardware doesn't
> have CD/DVD drive anymore an installation from a USB stick (with ROM
> memory .. not flash due to security concerns) seems to be required.

Do have any idea how much that would cost?  A CD is like $0.05 per unit,
a read-only flash drive would cost at least $50.00 per unit with a long
delay attached to production.  There is a reason no one does this.

Just buy the CD and copy the file set to your own flash disk.

>
> Financial aspects of the current distribution model are another very
> important topic.
> Let say the swiss OpenBSD user pays for the CD set 50 CHF (swiss
> francs). The price includes 8% VAT (= CHF 3.60)
> The german OpenBSD user has to pay 19% VAT. If the price would be 40
> Euro (EUR) the VAT is EUR 6.39.
> Myself I prefer to donate than to pay unnecessary VAT or other handling
> costs.
>
> My conclusion and suggestion is to sell the CD media kit for the lowest
> possible price (production costs plus additional charges like shipment
> and custom costs, VAT etc) and ask users to donate $ 20 to $ 50 instead.
>
> Another possibility is to enable downloads of original iso images for
> people who donate yearly let say at least $20, 30 or more. My preffered
> way is to donate once for few years in advance to assure continous
> development of OpenBSD and cover operating costs of the required server
> infrastructure.

What would anyone get out of this that they couldn't with the -release
images?  Unless you are planning on producing your own and robbing the
project of one of its sources of income.

>
>> Instead of concentrating on users, it might be more worthwhile to
>> focus a campaign on pressuring vendors of enterprise *nix OS's that
>> bundle OpenSSH without contributing a nickel to the cause. This would
>> be most effectively done by buyers in large corporate environments,
>> but this is also the most unlikely group to care. Has any thought been
>> given to media relations? A story in Wired about the world's most
>> underappreciated developers of some of the most critical software
>> could do enormous good. Rumors of an impending implosion could work
>> wonders on those Fortune 500 enterprise *nix vendors who would much
>> rather donate a hundred grand or so rather than spend many times that
>> to develop a critical component in-house.
>>
> Big companies will donate regulary as they want continuos support and
> maintenace for OpenBSD.
>
Why?  That logic only works if we are the only provider of an ssh
server, which we aren't and the license doesn't require anything of them

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Re: Few ideas how to help out to collect some money for OpenBSD and make it more popular

Austin Hook-2
In reply to this post by ms-2
On Sun, 19 Jan 2014, Mark Schneider wrote:

> Swiss bank accounts are the most safe worldwide. Some donating people
> want to stay anonymous so it is neccessary to ofer them such posibility.

OpenBSD has donors that sometimes don't want their names listed
publicly, but I don't think there are any would be donors who need to
remain absolutely secret for fear of being found out.

OpenBSD is an entirely legal project, and there is scarcely any endeavor
that attempts to be more transparent than OpenBSD.  

The software produced is intended to be a tool of perfection.  Good guys,
bad guys, citizens or spies, governments and secret agencies they control,
are all able to use it -- just like a hammer or wrench.  It has no
political agenda except pushing the idea that good software is better for
all the world than bad software.

Of course, individuals within the OpenBSD developer or user community tend
to be pretty sharp, and if there is a law against that I have never yet
heard it proclaimed.  They also have as many different political visions
as a rainbow has colours.  If some chose to be controversial and others
chose to be apolitical, that is entirely their choice.

If through shear envy some centre of power seeks to ban contributions to
OpenBSD, then we will all have plenty of time to re-adjust.  That can be
dealt with if such an unlikely even ever happens.  So Swiss banks
accounts, even in the good/bad old days when they were absolutely
inviolable, aren't really needed for the foreseeable future.

More over, confiscating accounts that are close to being overdrawn
wouldn't net enough to matter, nor would they be very interesting for
Swiss bank managers to add to their portfolio.  If OpenBSD had a horde of
cash to hide, it wouldn't have to be asking for more....   :-)

> Further it is rather difficult (in particular for foreign secret service
> agancies) to monitor payments and/or to block money of nonprofit
> fundations when the account is just in a neutral country like Switzerland.

All donations to OpenBSD, through the various channels, are open for
inspection upon request of Canadian tax authorities, if only to ascertain
that they are true gifts, and not fee for service or something like that.  
Why would secret agencies feel the need to compete with Canada Revenue?

Austin

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Re: Few ideas how to help out to collect some money for OpenBSD and make it more popular

Elmar Stellnberger
In reply to this post by LeviaComm Networks NOC
Am 20.01.2014 um 00:49 schrieb Christopher Ahrens:

> Mark Schneider wrote:
>> Thanks for your suggestions Ryan.
>>
>> On 18.01.2014 02:59, Ryan Kirk wrote:
>>>
>>> What is the point of a Swiss bank account? Especially with FATCA?
>>> OpenBSD has a nonprofit foundation behind it which looks a lot better
>>> than funneling money through tax havens.
>>>
>> Swiss bank accounts are the most safe worldwide.
>> Some donating people want to stay anonymous so it is neccessary to ofer
>> them such posibility.
>> Further it is rather difficult (in particular for foreign secret service
>> agancies) to monitor payments and/or to block money of nonprofit
>> fundations when the account is just in a neutral country like Switzerland.
>>
>
> The NSA was able to bug Merkle's phone, I don't think they have a
> problem with Swiss bank accounts.  Besides, who many people out there
> would be embarrassed by donating to OpenBSD?  If they are trying to
> stay anonymous, they could always use BitCoin; setting up a Swiss
> account will only cause MI6/FSB/NSA/CIA to follow Theo and the rest of
> the foundation so close they know what they ate for breakfast...
> Beside that, do you even know what the fees are on numbered accounts?
> Silence and anonymity isn't cheap.


Yes, I think so, too. Hiding something from the tax authorities or some local
government will be very different from hiding something from NSA/MI6 or
data provided by one of their affiliate organizations. If the powerful wanted
no more tax evasion I believe there would not be any; US and GB secret
service would have the power to do so (BND alone f.i. does of course not
have it; it had to buy bank data records.). Someone who can controls bank
transfers who can detect hard cash by sensors and who has vast
conventional and progressive resources could very likely achieve this goal
without a major problem. I just wonder where Obamas announcement to
do so has vanished.

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Re: Few ideas how to help out to collect some money for OpenBSD and make it more popular

andrew fabbro
In reply to this post by Austin Hook-2
On Sun, Jan 19, 2014 at 4:22 PM, Austin Hook <[hidden email]> wrote:

> OpenBSD has donors that sometimes don't want their names listed
> publicly, but I don't think there are any would be donors who need to
> remain absolutely secret for fear of being found out.
>

Exactly.  Is there a crying need from people who want to donate but fear to
do so?

Short of people living in very repressive regimes (e.g., North Korea) I am
skeptical that there is anyone today who wants to donate to OpenBSD and
can't.  (I suspect people in North Korea have more pressing matters than
supporting the world's premier *BSD, but I digress.)

This is a strange thread.  What I've concluded from reading it:

(1) Some people think OpenBSD should make DVD images in addition to CDs.
(2) In a perfect world with unlimited time/resources, sure.
(3) Given that we don't live in such a world, it's not a priority.
(4) There's no need to spend time/resources on making donations secret
because there is no need to do so.
(5) There's nothing wrong with well-intentioned people bringing up ideas
even if they don't pan out.

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Re: Few ideas how to help out to collect some money for OpenBSD and make it more popular

ms-2
In reply to this post by LeviaComm Networks NOC
Thank you for your point Christopher.


Am 20.01.2014 00:49, schrieb Christopher Ahrens:

> Mark Schneider wrote:
>> Thanks for your suggestions Ryan.
>>
>> On 18.01.2014 02:59, Ryan Kirk wrote:
>>>
>>> What is the point of a Swiss bank account? Especially with FATCA?
>>> OpenBSD has a nonprofit foundation behind it which looks a lot better
>>> than funneling money through tax havens.
>>>
>> Swiss bank accounts are the most safe worldwide.
>> Some donating people want to stay anonymous so it is neccessary to ofer
>> them such posibility.
>> Further it is rather difficult (in particular for foreign secret service
>> agancies) to monitor payments and/or to block money of nonprofit
>> fundations when the account is just in a neutral country like
>> Switzerland.
>>
>
> The NSA was able to bug Merkle's phone, I don't think they have a
> problem with Swiss bank accounts.  Besides, who many people out there
> would be embarrassed by donating to OpenBSD?  If they are trying to
> stay anonymous, they could always use BitCoin; setting up a Swiss
> account will only cause MI6/FSB/NSA/CIA to follow Theo and the rest of
> the foundation so close they know what they ate for breakfast...
> Beside that, do you even know what the fees are on numbered accounts?
> Silence and anonymity isn't cheap.
According to some news Merkel didn't use the special encrytpion of the phone
because of it's complexity but used it like everyone else.
I was not involved into these investigations so I don't know details and
what is true.
It is well known for years that the current encrytpion of cell phones
communication is broken.

I always wonder that some people don't understand the necessity to have
for themself and others always the free choice.
No one foreign secret service agency has direct access to swiss bank
accounts.
Otherewise there will be no reason for some goverments to pay millions
of EURO
for bank data.

When I want to donate it is only my business but nobody's else!

>>> OpenBSD would have no problem receiving donations if it became
>>> something most of its developers and users don't want it to become.
>>> Linux or FreeBSD have shown the way to users and incone via various
>>> models (paid support, enterprise features, long-term releases,
>>> automation tools, trying to be everything to everyone, etc). While it
>>> is admirable that OpenBSD has eschewed corporate sponsorship so that
>>> it has the freedom to be autonomous, the price for that is, of course,
>>> money.
>>>
>> The main disadvantage of the current distribution model of OpenBSD is
>> (from my point of view) the limited availability of the same iso images
>> as in the distributed CD set. Most of other *BSD or Linux distribution
>> offer downloads of current iso images.
>>
>> Image downloads are of course less secure as the "man in the middle"
>> could modify the image and fake the signatures.
>> Installations over the network are also not as secure as installing
>> offline from original CD or DVD image. As brand new hardware doesn't
>> have CD/DVD drive anymore an installation from a USB stick (with ROM
>> memory .. not flash due to security concerns) seems to be required.
>
> Do have any idea how much that would cost?  A CD is like $0.05 per unit,
> a read-only flash drive would cost at least $50.00 per unit with a long
> delay attached to production.  There is a reason no one does this.
A CD may cost only lie $0.05 per unit but all handling costs are much
higher.
When you sell a set of three CDs mostly one (or two) of them for the target
CPU architecture will be used. The other two (or one) are plastic garbage.

Debian and some other distributions are able to manage costs of downloads
so it is not a real problem for others like OpenBSD.

> Just buy the CD and copy the file set to your own flash disk.
I guess I know better what I want, don't I?


>> Financial aspects of the current distribution model are another very
>> important topic.
>> Let say the swiss OpenBSD user pays for the CD set 50 CHF (swiss
>> francs). The price includes 8% VAT (= CHF 3.60)
>> The german OpenBSD user has to pay 19% VAT. If the price would be 40
>> Euro (EUR) the VAT is EUR 6.39.
>> Myself I prefer to donate than to pay unnecessary VAT or other handling
>> costs.
>>
>> My conclusion and suggestion is to sell the CD media kit for the lowest
>> possible price (production costs plus additional charges like shipment
>> and custom costs, VAT etc) and ask users to donate $ 20 to $ 50 instead.
>>
>> Another possibility is to enable downloads of original iso images for
>> people who donate yearly let say at least $20, 30 or more. My preffered
>> way is to donate once for few years in advance to assure continous
>> development of OpenBSD and cover operating costs of the required server
>> infrastructure.
>
> What would anyone get out of this that they couldn't with the -release
> images?  Unless you are planning on producing your own and robbing the
> project of one of its sources of income.
The original idea I had (and still have) is to support OpenBSD with $500
but with a bit more than just only simple donation. Instead buying as much
CD sets as possible, selling them locally and donate the profit to OpenBSD.
I do it in my free time and because I want to do so. I am not interested
to make profit for myself distributing OpenBSD CD sets but just to help
making OpenBSD more popular.

If there some more intelligent people in other countries doing the same
OpenBSD will not complain anymore about financial problems.

>>> Instead of concentrating on users, it might be more worthwhile to
>>> focus a campaign on pressuring vendors of enterprise *nix OS's that
>>> bundle OpenSSH without contributing a nickel to the cause. This would
>>> be most effectively done by buyers in large corporate environments,
>>> but this is also the most unlikely group to care. Has any thought been
>>> given to media relations? A story in Wired about the world's most
>>> underappreciated developers of some of the most critical software
>>> could do enormous good. Rumors of an impending implosion could work
>>> wonders on those Fortune 500 enterprise *nix vendors who would much
>>> rather donate a hundred grand or so rather than spend many times that
>>> to develop a critical component in-house.
>>>
>> Big companies will donate regulary as they want continuos support and
>> maintenace for OpenBSD.
>>
> Why?  That logic only works if we are the only provider of an ssh
> server, which we aren't and the license doesn't require anything of them
Because most companies trust OpenBSD much more than all others.


Kind regards, Mark

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Re: Few ideas how to help out to collect some money for OpenBSD and make it more popular

ms-2
In reply to this post by Austin Hook-2
Am 20.01.2014 01:22, schrieb Austin Hook:
> On Sun, 19 Jan 2014, Mark Schneider wrote:
>
>> Swiss bank accounts are the most safe worldwide. Some donating people
>> want to stay anonymous so it is neccessary to ofer them such posibility.
> OpenBSD has donors that sometimes don't want their names listed
> publicly, but I don't think there are any would be donors who need to
> remain absolutely secret for fear of being found out.
I can imagine that some foreign agencies, military and banks would donate
as they also need a trustable and secure operating system for their own
IT infrastructure.
They will never do it directly but use other possibilities to do it in a
as safe as possible way
to achieve the highest level of anonymity.

As far as I can remember NSA was using OpenBSD in the past.
Probably they didn't use it anymore because of possible FBI backdors in
OpenBSD
and stopped their donations due to some political issues and pressure of
the government.

> OpenBSD is an entirely legal project, and there is scarcely any endeavor
> that attempts to be more transparent than OpenBSD.
>
> The software produced is intended to be a tool of perfection.  Good guys,
> bad guys, citizens or spies, governments and secret agencies they control,
> are all able to use it -- just like a hammer or wrench.  It has no
> political agenda except pushing the idea that good software is better for
> all the world than bad software.
>
> Of course, individuals within the OpenBSD developer or user community tend
> to be pretty sharp, and if there is a law against that I have never yet
> heard it proclaimed.  They also have as many different political visions
> as a rainbow has colours.  If some chose to be controversial and others
> chose to be apolitical, that is entirely their choice.
>
> If through shear envy some centre of power seeks to ban contributions to
> OpenBSD, then we will all have plenty of time to re-adjust.  That can be
> dealt with if such an unlikely even ever happens.  So Swiss banks
> accounts, even in the good/bad old days when they were absolutely
> inviolable, aren't really needed for the foreseeable future.
Swiss banks have changed a lot within last few years.

> More over, confiscating accounts that are close to being overdrawn
> wouldn't net enough to matter, nor would they be very interesting for
> Swiss bank managers to add to their portfolio.  If OpenBSD had a horde of
> cash to hide, it wouldn't have to be asking for more....   :-)
There is no reason to hide cash.
The point is the anonymity of donors and independency of OpenBSD.

>> Further it is rather difficult (in particular for foreign secret service
>> agancies) to monitor payments and/or to block money of nonprofit
>> fundations when the account is just in a neutral country like Switzerland.
> All donations to OpenBSD, through the various channels, are open for
> inspection upon request of Canadian tax authorities, if only to ascertain
> that they are true gifts, and not fee for service or something like that.
> Why would secret agencies feel the need to compete with Canada Revenue?
It can happen, that one day it will be neccessary to pay taxes for
donations too.
I don't know the current Canadian financial law and future tax plans.

Kind regards, Mark

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Re: Few ideas how to help out to collect some money for OpenBSD and make it more popular

Ryan Kirk
Responses inline.

Sent from a mobile device
On Jan 20, 2014 4:27 PM, "Mark Schneider" <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> Am 20.01.2014 01:22, schrieb Austin Hook:
>>
>> On Sun, 19 Jan 2014, Mark Schneider wrote:
>>
>>> Swiss bank accounts are the most safe worldwide. Some donating people
>>> want to stay anonymous so it is neccessary to ofer them such posibility.
>>
>> OpenBSD has donors that sometimes don't want their names listed
>> publicly, but I don't think there are any would be donors who need to
>> remain absolutely secret for fear of being found out.
>
> I can imagine that some foreign agencies, military and banks would donate
> as they also need a trustable and secure operating system for their own
IT infrastructure.
> They will never do it directly but use other possibilities to do it in a
as safe as possible way
> to achieve the highest level of anonymity.

I don't know how familiar you are with tax havens and anonymous banking,
but Switzerland would be lowest on my list. Again, consider FATCA and the
US/Canada relationship. I work for a multinational bank and would be glad
to share my thoughts on this privately (not on a public mailing list).

Regardless, I'm certain if the project really did have the problem of
"multiple countries are trying to secretly donate millions but just don't
know which Swiss account to wire it to", Mr. de Raadt would probably be
aware of this as they would have contacted him in some way. I highly doubt
this is an actual problem.

> As far as I can remember NSA was using OpenBSD in the past.
> Probably they didn't use it anymore because of possible FBI backdors in
OpenBSD

And this is where I check out.

> and stopped their donations due to some political issues and pressure of
the government.
>
>> OpenBSD is an entirely legal project, and there is scarcely any endeavor
>> that attempts to be more transparent than OpenBSD.
>>
>> The software produced is intended to be a tool of perfection.  Good guys,
>> bad guys, citizens or spies, governments and secret agencies they
control,
>> are all able to use it -- just like a hammer or wrench.  It has no
>> political agenda except pushing the idea that good software is better for
>> all the world than bad software.
>>
>> Of course, individuals within the OpenBSD developer or user community
tend

>> to be pretty sharp, and if there is a law against that I have never yet
>> heard it proclaimed.  They also have as many different political visions
>> as a rainbow has colours.  If some chose to be controversial and others
>> chose to be apolitical, that is entirely their choice.
>>
>> If through shear envy some centre of power seeks to ban contributions to
>> OpenBSD, then we will all have plenty of time to re-adjust.  That can be
>> dealt with if such an unlikely even ever happens.  So Swiss banks
>> accounts, even in the good/bad old days when they were absolutely
>> inviolable, aren't really needed for the foreseeable future.
>
> Swiss banks have changed a lot within last few years.
>
>> More over, confiscating accounts that are close to being overdrawn
>> wouldn't net enough to matter, nor would they be very interesting for
>> Swiss bank managers to add to their portfolio.  If OpenBSD had a horde of
>> cash to hide, it wouldn't have to be asking for more....   :-)
>
> There is no reason to hide cash.
> The point is the anonymity of donors and independency of OpenBSD.
>
>>> Further it is rather difficult (in particular for foreign secret service
>>> agancies) to monitor payments and/or to block money of nonprofit
>>> fundations when the account is just in a neutral country like
Switzerland.
>>
>> All donations to OpenBSD, through the various channels, are open for
>> inspection upon request of Canadian tax authorities, if only to ascertain
>> that they are true gifts, and not fee for service or something like that.
>> Why would secret agencies feel the need to compete with Canada Revenue?
>
> It can happen, that one day it will be neccessary to pay taxes for
donations too.
> I don't know the current Canadian financial law and future tax plans.
>
> Kind regards, Mark
>
> --
> [hidden email]
>
> http://rsync.it-infrastrukturen.org
>
 Am 20.01.2014 01:22, schrieb Austin Hook:

> On Sun, 19 Jan 2014, Mark Schneider wrote:
>
>  Swiss bank accounts are the most safe worldwide. Some donating people
>> want to stay anonymous so it is neccessary to ofer them such posibility.
>>
> OpenBSD has donors that sometimes don't want their names listed
> publicly, but I don't think there are any would be donors who need to
> remain absolutely secret for fear of being found out.
>
I can imagine that some foreign agencies, military and banks would donate
as they also need a trustable and secure operating system for their own IT
infrastructure.
They will never do it directly but use other possibilities to do it in a as
safe as possible way
to achieve the highest level of anonymity.

As far as I can remember NSA was using OpenBSD in the past.
Probably they didn't use it anymore because of possible FBI backdors in
OpenBSD
and stopped their donations due to some political issues and pressure of
the government.

 OpenBSD is an entirely legal project, and there is scarcely any endeavor

> that attempts to be more transparent than OpenBSD.
>
> The software produced is intended to be a tool of perfection.  Good guys,
> bad guys, citizens or spies, governments and secret agencies they control,
> are all able to use it -- just like a hammer or wrench.  It has no
> political agenda except pushing the idea that good software is better for
> all the world than bad software.
>
> Of course, individuals within the OpenBSD developer or user community tend
> to be pretty sharp, and if there is a law against that I have never yet
> heard it proclaimed.  They also have as many different political visions
> as a rainbow has colours.  If some chose to be controversial and others
> chose to be apolitical, that is entirely their choice.
>
> If through shear envy some centre of power seeks to ban contributions to
> OpenBSD, then we will all have plenty of time to re-adjust.  That can be
> dealt with if such an unlikely even ever happens.  So Swiss banks
> accounts, even in the good/bad old days when they were absolutely
> inviolable, aren't really needed for the foreseeable future.
>
Swiss banks have changed a lot within last few years.

 More over, confiscating accounts that are close to being overdrawn
> wouldn't net enough to matter, nor would they be very interesting for
> Swiss bank managers to add to their portfolio.  If OpenBSD had a horde of
> cash to hide, it wouldn't have to be asking for more....   :-)
>
There is no reason to hide cash.
The point is the anonymity of donors and independency of OpenBSD.

 Further it is rather difficult (in particular for foreign secret service
>> agancies) to monitor payments and/or to block money of nonprofit
>> fundations when the account is just in a neutral country like Switzerland.
>>
> All donations to OpenBSD, through the various channels, are open for
> inspection upon request of Canadian tax authorities, if only to ascertain
> that they are true gifts, and not fee for service or something like that.
> Why would secret agencies feel the need to compete with Canada Revenue?
>
It can happen, that one day it will be neccessary to pay taxes for
donations too.
I don't know the current Canadian financial law and future tax plans.

Kind regards, Mark

--
[hidden email]

http://rsync.it-infrastrukturen.org