Donations

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Re: Donations

Jamie Paul Griffin-4
<snip pointless rant>
 
> But things are not free.  It takes commerce to produce nearly every
> material good, as distasteful as that might be to some people.  It
> is called business.  No one is forcing anyone to use ebay or paypal.
>  If anyone wants to play in their marketplace, however, they must
> play by the established rules.
 
of course all things are not free, we're not bloody idiots. the point is their charges, in my opion, are excessive.

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Re: Donations

SJP Lists
In reply to this post by Joe Barnett-2
On 7 December 2010 02:42, Joe Barnett <[hidden email]> wrote:
> On 12/5/10 5:11 PM, Jamie Paul Griffin wrote:
>>
>> if nothing else think about the charges they put on every transaction: you
sell something on ebay, they charge you; you process their payment through
paypal (ebay) they charge you again. they're clearly ripping us all us all off
- fact! and to top it all of the charges have become extortionate.
>>
>
> Perhaps everything should just be (lowercase) free?  No charge ever
> for anything.  Heck, if that is how it worked, then this entire

I think the main point was the double charging.  eBay owns PayPal.


> selective outrage.  Speaking of that outrage, I think it would be
> great if he put his money where his mouth is and not accept US
> dollars in support of OpenBSD... but I am not holding my breath).

From what has been said in the past, most donation money comes from
end user pockets and not big business or governments.  So the project
should snub US citizen donations because their government is corrupt?
All peoples under an unethical government should be treated as if
their governments secretive actions are all their fault?  I'd view
many US citizens as victims of that same government and given their
liberties deprived since 9/11, those who might get most benefit from
OpenBSD ought to be able to give back.

Theo did however protest US aggression, even while $2M of US fund
money was feeding the project.  Thankfully most of that cruise
missiles worth got used before it could be taken back.


Shane

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Re: Donations

ropers
This thread is a great shibboleth, because it brings out the douchebags.
I have bookmarked this <http://marc.info/?t=129151986400001> page, for
future reference, for the purposes of douchebag identification.

Thanks,

--ropers

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Re: Donations

Dmitrij D. Czarkoff-2
In reply to this post by Theo de Raadt
> PayPal's terms of use do not permit soliciting crime.  Wikileaks
> solicits the
> holders of US security clearances to violate their
> non-disclosure agreements.
> That is a crime.

Soliciting crimes is criminal activity, and therefor to be acted upon needs to
be proved in court.

Untill one is found guilty by court, any public occusations against him are
considered defamation (criminal activity on it's own).

So, according to legal regulations PayPal's activity towards Wikileaks account
should be brought to court as a defamation case.

Again: if PayPal things Wikileaks to be engaged in criminal activity, it
should report such an activity (but not the details of such activity that
became known to PayPal dew to it's contract with Wikileaks) to entitled public
bodies and sit back waiting for a court's descision.

--
Dmitrij D. Czarkoff

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Re: Donations

Theo de Raadt
> > PayPal's terms of use do not permit soliciting crime.  Wikileaks
> > solicits the
> > holders of US security clearances to violate their
> > non-disclosure agreements.
> > That is a crime.
>
> Soliciting crimes is criminal activity, and therefor to be acted upon needs to
> be proved in court.

Moreso, Wikileaks does not solicit.  Essentially they accept "brown
envelopes" and then work with reporters are multiple newspapers.  For
a very long time our media has worked this way: Investigative
reporters who break stories can build up street cred, and then they
start getting more "brown envelopes".  Over decades this practice has
slowly been beaten into the ground by "editorial standards" built into
the modern US-based media's control structures -- especially as we now
see with AP and Reuters.  The idea has been to (a) kill the story, if
not possible then (b) interpret it so vaguely as to make it a
non-story, and finally (c) provide enough pablum for the masses to
keep them distracted.  Wikileaks could be considered a partial "reset"
of that control mechanism.

> Untill one is found guilty by court, any public occusations against him are
> considered defamation (criminal activity on it's own).

So you have to pay for due process?

> So, according to legal regulations PayPal's activity towards Wikileaks account
> should be brought to court as a defamation case.

So you have to pay for due process?

> Again: if PayPal things Wikileaks to be engaged in criminal activity, it
> should report such an activity (but not the details of such activity that
> became known to PayPal dew to it's contract with Wikileaks) to entitled public
> bodies and sit back waiting for a court's descision.

If you search around you'll find stories of how paypal in effect
seizes the money; or at least, "holds it", and creates a lot of
trouble for people who rightfully own it.

In contrast to this, the Swiss bank postfinance.ch has made it
abundantly clear in the media that they are trying to get the money
from his closed Swiss account to him some other way as soon as
possible.  Their decision to close is also shameful, but at least they
immediately hand the money back as required by law.

The US has no rule of law or due process, and most people won't care
until it bites them.

Anyways, this is way off topic now..

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Re: Donations

fqui nonez
In reply to this post by Adam M. Dutko
2010/12/5 Adam M. Dutko <[hidden email]>:
>> > Are you planning on having the OpenBSD development team perform some
>> > sort of illegal activity soon?
>> >
>> > If not, you shouldn't be worried about Paypal.
>>
>
> You're discussing intent.  Intent is a tricky thing that in the past
lawyers
> had to jump through hoops to prove in the (fed)nited States.  Now with the
> (un)Patriot Act and other legislation they can rely on the whole notion of
> "pre-crime."
>
> Seems like most of America is happy with "point and click" hegemony and I'm
> glad the Internet is trying to block the interrupts.

No, i think only US, because the most of the other countries have had
really bad experience under the external US politics. Among US, peple
could forgotten the McCarthyism.

In fact, the people in El Salvador who were responsible to assassinate
80,000 persons; were trained at La escuela de las Americas in US. ;
the rest of other Hispanic countries have had the same experience

In Canada, we can see the effect of insanity coming from US; bands and crime.

--
           Agr. francisco Quinonez.
      "Our mission, feed the World"
   "notre mission, nourrir au monde"
 "Nuestra mision, alimentar al mundo"

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Re: Donations

fqui nonez
In reply to this post by L. V. Lammert
2010/12/5 L. V. Lammert <[hidden email]>:
> On Sun, 5 Dec 2010, Dmitrij D. Czarkoff wrote:
>
>> > On Sun, 5 Dec 2010, Randal L. Schwartz wrote:
>> > I agree totally that there are a lot of idiots running parts of the US
>> > system, but at least they ARE predictable.
>>
>> Being predictable is just not enough. Hardly You would enjoy predictibility
of
>> You being put to prison on suspection of possibility of You commiting some
>> crime.
>>
> Actually, being predictable ALLOWS planning to avoid such problems!
>
> Ever head of Don Quixote? THe moral of the storey - pick the battles you
> have a chance of winning and avoid the rest.
>
>        Lee

It looks, like if the proper name of it is "cowardice", but Don
Quijote de La Mancha, shows how to distinguish reality!

--
           Agr. francisco Quinonez.
      "Our mission, feed the World"
   "notre mission, nourrir au monde"
 "Nuestra mision, alimentar al mundo"

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Re: Donations

fqui nonez
In reply to this post by Theo de Raadt
2010/12/5 Theo de Raadt <[hidden email]>:
>> Ever head of Don Quixote? THe moral of the storey - pick the battles you
>> have a chance of winning and avoid the rest.
>
> Such an American viewpoint.

Well, revising old documents, the word America was not used by the
Government of US;  but after I and II world war; when Europeans
properly used America to refer to the continent or its troops from
Canada, US and maybe others countries this word was taken as if it
were referring to US; i do not know if it is by ignorance or by
conceit.

>
> It didn't work out for Don Quixote either.
>
>



--
           Agr. francisco Quinonez.
      "Our mission, feed the World"
   "notre mission, nourrir au monde"
 "Nuestra mision, alimentar al mundo"

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Re: Donations

ropers
In reply to this post by fqui nonez
On 7 December 2010 07:36, fqui nonez <[hidden email]> wrote:
> In fact, the people in El Salvador who were responsible to assassinate
> 80,000 persons; were trained at La escuela de las Americas in US.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_of_the_Americas
Note the cute renaming and attempted post-hoc legitimization.

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Re: Donations

Corey-43
In reply to this post by Theo de Raadt
>  What you don't realize is that when paypal "locks accounts" they
>  effectively seize the money because you cannot get it out of the FDIC
>  registered banks that they have placed it.  You can't, until you file
>  to get it back.

>  You need to do more research.

Perhaps.  But if this is true, it is something that is a consequence of using Paypal as a payment processor.  It may even be in their TOS.  I even feel for Mr. Assange a bit here, since this is something that may not be obvious to the average Paypal payment-processing client.  It's certainly a pretty solid reason for OpenBSD not to accept payments through them.

But I still fail to see the "due process" (again, in the Constitutional sense) requirements for Paypal here.  They are a private company, contracted by people to process payments -- which inherently involves their holding onto your money for some period of time.  If they decide not to process any more payments for you, it is probably a breach of contract at most, and you go after them in civil court.  If they possess some of your payments, and won't give them to you, you might be able to bring fraud or possibly theft charges, depending on the jurisdiction.  I suspect the filing thing would get Paypal around that, and is standard arse-covering for client disputes of any kind.

This is getting off-topic, so I'll shut up for now.  I don't use Paypal to process payments, and would need to go read their TOS to offer any further commentary.

Corey

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Re: Donations

Jason Crawford-3
In reply to this post by Theo de Raadt
Better add Visa to the list as well

http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2010/12/07/wikileaks_17/

On Sat, Dec 4, 2010 at 10:25 PM, Theo de Raadt <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> In the future, if people can show preference for the non-Paypal
> transaction methods when they donate, we would appreciate that over
> Paypal.
>
> Since the projects hackathons (and many other things) are very much
> funded by donations, it is hard for us to fully dissasociate
> completely from Paypal.  However we can ask and recommend that people
> pass less money through them.
>
> If you don't know why I am sending this mail.. you are reading US
> managed news, and need to much much more informed....
>
> Thanks.

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Re: Donations

patrick keshishian
On Tue, Dec 7, 2010 at 1:24 PM, Jason Crawford <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Better add Visa to the list as well
>
> http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2010/12/07/wikileaks_17/


yep....

| MasterCard and Visa have cut off support for
| WikiLeaks. They claimed WikiLeaks breaches its
| rules, but you can still use those cards to
| support overtly racist orgainsations supported by
| the Ku Klux Klan.

source:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/blog/2010/dec/07/wikileaks-us-embassy-cables-l
ive-updates


>
> On Sat, Dec 4, 2010 at 10:25 PM, Theo de Raadt <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>> In the future, if people can show preference for the non-Paypal
>> transaction methods when they donate, we would appreciate that over
>> Paypal.
>>
>> Since the projects hackathons (and many other things) are very much
>> funded by donations, it is hard for us to fully dissasociate
>> completely from Paypal.  However we can ask and recommend that people
>> pass less money through them.
>>
>> If you don't know why I am sending this mail.. you are reading US
>> managed news, and need to much much more informed....
>>
>> Thanks.

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Re: Donations

fqui nonez
In reply to this post by fqui nonez
2010/12/7 ropers <[hidden email]>:

>> 2010/12/5 Theo de Raadt <[hidden email]>:
>>> Such an American viewpoint.
>
> On 7 December 2010 08:02, fqui nonez <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Well, revising old documents, the word America was not used by the
>> Government of US;  but after I and II world war; when Europeans
>> properly used America to refer to the continent or its troops from
>> Canada, US and maybe others countries this word was taken as if it
>> were referring to US; i do not know if it is by ignorance or by
>> conceit.
>
> Do you have any sources or links to such research?
>
> regards,
> --ropers

http://www.archives.gov/exhibits/charters/constitution_transcript.html

--
           Agr. francisco Quinonez.
      "Our mission, feed the World"
   "notre mission, nourrir au monde"
 "Nuestra mision, alimentar al mundo"

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Re: Donations

Philippe Meunier
Still off-topic but in light of the current Wikileaks brouhaha the
following press statement from the US Department of State is quite
funny (unintentionally, I assume):

http://www.state.gov/r/pa/prs/ps/2010/12/152465.htm

"U.S. to Host World Press Freedom Day in 2011 [...] we are concerned
about the determination of some governments to censor and silence
individuals, and to restrict the free flow of information"

Philippe

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Re: Donations

patrick keshishian
On Tue, Dec 7, 2010 at 10:41 PM, Philippe Meunier <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Still off-topic but in light of the current Wikileaks brouhaha the
> following press statement from the US Department of State is quite
> funny (unintentionally, I assume):
>
> http://www.state.gov/r/pa/prs/ps/2010/12/152465.htm
>
> "U.S. to Host World Press Freedom Day in 2011 [...] we are concerned
> about the determination of some governments to censor and silence
> individuals, and to restrict the free flow of information"

yep... pointed out earlier today at (5:30pm time-frame):

http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/blog/2010/dec/07/wikileaks-us-embassy-cables-live-updates

--patrick

p.s., attached tiny pdf (which misc@ will strip), copy-and-save from
above link, is being passed around, printed, etc.

[demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type application/pdf which had a name of shameless.pdf]

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Re: Donations

Dmitrij D. Czarkoff-2
In reply to this post by Theo de Raadt
> > Untill one is found guilty by court, any public occusations against him are
> > considered defamation (criminal activity on it's own).
>
> So you have to pay for due process?

Why? Either I don't understand Your point, or You don't understand mine. You
don't have to pay to report a crime to entitled public bodies.

> > So, according to legal regulations PayPal's activity towards Wikileaks account
> > should be brought to court as a defamation case.
>
> So you have to pay for due process?

In Russia it would be a criminal case, so the one to pay would be the
government. The civil case (damages due) could be run within criminal case or
afterwards, but it would be rather automated process, not a very big deal in
terms of mony.

--
Dmitrij D. Czarkoff

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Re: Donations

Hugo Osvaldo Barrera
In reply to this post by Adam M. Dutko
On 05/12/10 23:04, Adam M. Dutko wrote:

>> I hope that one day due process is denied you.
>>
> I am wondering what type of due process should be granted to these
> individuals.  What basis/jurisdiction of law are we talking about?  Natural
> human rights? US law? International Law?  I'm just wondering because I think
> it's critical to the whole discussion.  Julian Assange isn't a US citizen so
> the US Government probably feels justified doing whatever they want even if
> it is "unethical", yet many think he should be protected by some of the US
> justice code/process.  Is due process universal?
>

If I kill a cow, should I be deported to India, and processed there for
that crime?  (Note that in most parts of india, it IS a crime).
Oh, I live in Argentina, the largest exporter of cow-meat.  Maybe we
should all be deported there.

--
Hugo Osvaldo Barrera

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Re: Donations

Hugo Osvaldo Barrera
In reply to this post by Fred Elwood
On 05/12/10 23:54, Fred Elwood wrote:

> --- On Mon, 12/6/10, Theo de Raadt<[hidden email]>  wrote:
>
>> From:
> Theo de Raadt<[hidden email]>
>> Subject: Re: Donations
>> To: "Fred
> Elwood"<[hidden email]>
>> Cc: [hidden email]
>> Date: Monday,
> December 6, 2010, 1:42 AM
>>> PayPal's terms of use do not
>> permit soliciting
> crime.
>> Paypal's terms of use are just that; terms of use.
>> The account
> was
>> being run by the German charity WHS.
>>
>> Noone has said that wikileaks
> has commited a crime.
>> What statute
>> are you talking about?
>>
> Wikileaks
>>> solicits the
>>> holders of US security clearances to violate
> their
>>> non-disclosure agreements.
>>> That is a crime.
>> I hereby ask
> anyone who holds secrets that the world should
>> know
>> of, which may contain
> indications of real crimes having
>> been commited
>> should send them to
> wikileaks.
>> Did I just commit a crime?
> No.
>
>> Oh, remember I do not
> live
>> in the US.
> Hypothetical cleared US personnel who took you up on this
> request WOULD be committing a crime.
>
>>> Some people think it should not
> be a crime. But it
>> is.  Some people
>>> think that it matters that WIkileaks
> says that they do
>> not ask for
>>> submissions.  That matters about as much
> as a mob
>> boss saying that he
>>> didn't ask anyone to shoot so-and-so, just
> that
>> wouldn't it be
>>> fortunate if someone
>>> did?  Wikileaks model is
> predicated on breaking
>>> NDAs, and based on what their
>>> cite on their
> front pages, breaking NDAs
>>> on US classified information is their
>>>
> biggest product center.
>> You think it should be a crime.  You just
> justified
>> skipping due process.
>>
> Against whom?  Due process rights exist
> in criminal and civil proceedings, not in business arrangements.  Wikileaks
> has no more due process rights against PayPal than Wim has against you; they
> might be able to sue for breach of contract, but that's it.  "Due process" has
> nothing to do with this case.  The nickel summary is that "due process" is not
> in play if the cops are not directly involved.
>
> The crime I am talking about
> is the crime of the cleared individuals disclosing the classified information.
> PayPal did not terminate Wikileaks for committing a crime, but for using
> PayPal in support of their soliciting crimes (unlawful disclosure/conveyance
> of classified information), which is against their terms of service.
>

Wikileaks is not guilty of any crimes until it's there's been a due
process.  It's just "accused of" for now.

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Re: Donations

Chandrakant Kumar
In reply to this post by Hugo Osvaldo Barrera
On Thursday 09 December 2010 05:39 PM, Hugo Osvaldo Barrera wrote:

> On 05/12/10 23:04, Adam M. Dutko wrote:
>>> I hope that one day due process is denied you.
>>>
>> I am wondering what type of due process should be granted to these
>> individuals.  What basis/jurisdiction of law are we talking about?  
>> Natural
>> human rights? US law? International Law?  I'm just wondering because
>> I think
>> it's critical to the whole discussion.  Julian Assange isn't a US
>> citizen so
>> the US Government probably feels justified doing whatever they want
>> even if
>> it is "unethical", yet many think he should be protected by some of
>> the US
>> justice code/process.  Is due process universal?
>>
>
> If I kill a cow, should I be deported to India, and processed there
> for that crime?  (Note that in most parts of india, it IS a crime).
> Oh, I live in Argentina, the largest exporter of cow-meat.  Maybe we
> should all be deported there.
>
> --
> Hugo Osvaldo Barrera
>
>
We are waiting for you here in India ;)

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Re: Donations

mehma sarja
On 12/9/10 4:54 AM, Chandrakant Kumar wrote:

> On Thursday 09 December 2010 05:39 PM, Hugo Osvaldo Barrera wrote:
>> On 05/12/10 23:04, Adam M. Dutko wrote:
>>>> I hope that one day due process is denied you.
>>>>
>>> I am wondering what type of due process should be granted to these
>>> individuals.  What basis/jurisdiction of law are we talking about?  
>>> Natural
>>> human rights? US law? International Law?  I'm just wondering because
>>> I think
>>> it's critical to the whole discussion.  Julian Assange isn't a US
>>> citizen so
>>> the US Government probably feels justified doing whatever they want
>>> even if
>>> it is "unethical", yet many think he should be protected by some of
>>> the US
>>> justice code/process.  Is due process universal?
>>>
>>
>> If I kill a cow, should I be deported to India, and processed there
>> for that crime?  (Note that in most parts of india, it IS a crime).
>> Oh, I live in Argentina, the largest exporter of cow-meat.  Maybe we
>> should all be deported there.
>>
>> --
>> Hugo Osvaldo Barrera
>>
>>
> We are waiting for you here in India ;)
>
That's why Americans call cowburgers hamburgers, for fear of
repercussions from the holy land. But seriously, re-incarnation takes
care of all that. Meaning, if you kill a cow in this life, you come back
as a cow and someone can kill you. It's the Indian version of an eye for
an eye.

Mehma

1234