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Donations

Theo de Raadt
In the future, if people can show preference for the non-Paypal
transaction methods when they donate, we would appreciate that over
Paypal.

Since the projects hackathons (and many other things) are very much
funded by donations, it is hard for us to fully dissasociate
completely from Paypal.  However we can ask and recommend that people
pass less money through them.

If you don't know why I am sending this mail.. you are reading US
managed news, and need to much much more informed....

Thanks.

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Re: Donations

Scott Stanley
Roger that; thanks for the info; I obviously need to stay more
informed (my mistake is not reading US news and believing it, but
rather mistrusting all news and getting none).

On Sat, Dec 4, 2010 at 7:25 PM, Theo de Raadt <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> In the future, if people can show preference for the non-Paypal
> transaction methods when they donate, we would appreciate that over
> Paypal.
>
> Since the projects hackathons (and many other things) are very much
> funded by donations, it is hard for us to fully dissasociate
> completely from Paypal.  However we can ask and recommend that people
> pass less money through them.
>
> If you don't know why I am sending this mail.. you are reading US
> managed news, and need to much much more informed....
>
> Thanks.

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Re: Donations

Sean Kamath
In reply to this post by Theo de Raadt
On Dec 4, 2010, at 7:25 PM, Theo de Raadt wrote:
> If you don't know why I am sending this mail.. you are reading US
> managed news, and need to much much more informed....

It's in the US news.  Even the mainstream news on TV.  At least in Silicon
Valley. ;-)

Gotta love the cloud. . .

Sean

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Re: Donations

Theo de Raadt
> On Dec 4, 2010, at 7:25 PM, Theo de Raadt wrote:
> > If you don't know why I am sending this mail.. you are reading US
> > managed news, and need to much much more informed....
>
> It's in the US news.  Even the mainstream news on TV.  At least in Silicon
> Valley. ;-)

No, it isn't in the US news.

The US news is all about the messenger, to distract you from reading
the message.

If you think it is in the US news, you have a long way to go.

guardian.co.uk/world is the best place to read the *message*.

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Re: Donations

Tomas Bodzar-4
In reply to this post by Theo de Raadt
On Sun, Dec 5, 2010 at 4:25 AM, Theo de Raadt <[hidden email]>
wrote:
> In the future, if people can show preference for the non-Paypal
> transaction methods when they donate, we would appreciate that over
> Paypal.

Is there some preferred by devs like Google checkout or some non-US
on-line payment system?

>
> Since the projects hackathons (and many other things) are very much
> funded by donations, it is hard for us to fully dissasociate
> completely from Paypal. B However we can ask and recommend that people
> pass less money through them.
>
> If you don't know why I am sending this mail.. you are reading US
> managed news, and need to much much more informed....
>
> Thanks.

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Re: Donations

patrick keshishian
In reply to this post by Theo de Raadt
On Sat, Dec 4, 2010 at 10:05 PM, Theo de Raadt <[hidden email]>
wrote:

>> On Dec 4, 2010, at 7:25 PM, Theo de Raadt wrote:
>> > If you don't know why I am sending this mail.. you are reading US
>> > managed news, and need to much much more informed....
>>
>> It's in the US news.  Even the mainstream news on TV.  At least in Silicon
>> Valley. ;-)
>
> No, it isn't in the US news.
>
> The US news is all about the messenger, to distract you from reading
> the message.
>
> If you think it is in the US news, you have a long way to go.
>
> guardian.co.uk/world is the best place to read the *message*.

but do they have a section on the kardashians? :P

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Re: Donations

Theo de Raadt
In reply to this post by Tomas Bodzar-4
> > In the future, if people can show preference for the non-Paypal
> > transaction methods when they donate, we would appreciate that over
> > Paypal.
>
> Is there some preferred by devs like Google checkout or some non-US
> on-line payment system?

Those are listed at:

http://www.openbsd.org/donations.html

I suppose I could hunt for a boring non-US online payment system that
people are more used to.. but people have to realize that anything
which gets big will develop the same 'listen to force' policies, except
for real banks, perhaps (which today still mostly follow banking laws,
unlike paypal: ie. due process)

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Re: Donations

SJP Lists
In reply to this post by Theo de Raadt
On 5 December 2010 17:05, Theo de Raadt <[hidden email]> wrote:

>> On Dec 4, 2010, at 7:25 PM, Theo de Raadt wrote:
>> > If you don't know why I am sending this mail.. you are reading US
>> > managed news, and need to much much more informed....
>>
>> It's in the US news.  Even the mainstream news on TV.  At least in Silicon
>> Valley. ;-)
>
> No, it isn't in the US news.
>
> The US news is all about the messenger, to distract you from reading
> the message.
>
> If you think it is in the US news, you have a long way to go.
>
> guardian.co.uk/world is the best place to read the *message*.

I would love to witness the theory that people can bring about change
by voting with their dollars, but nowadays there never seems to be
enough willing to prove that a big enough dent can be made to bring
about positive change.  I fear that convenience matters more to a lot
of people than say a political adviser publicly calling for the
assassination of a messenger who is just communicating the wrong
doings of the most powerful against the weakest.


Still, I want to continue to hope and where possible at least try to
be the change I want to see in the World, as that saying goes.

So,

1. login to eBay
2. Click the Profile tab
3. Click close account
4. Prove I am me
5. etc (wait for my last bloody transaction to complete before they
allow me to leave!)
6. Hopefully get presented with a "Why?" form so I can tell them to
burn in hell for selling out to the Worlds biggest and most dangerous
terrorist group.


My last donation recently to OpenBSD and the biggest since I started
using OpenBSD with 2.5 in 1999/2000, was via PayPal.  And I used
PayPal for lots of other things for years.  My next donation will be
via other means.

Cheers,


Shane J Pearson

---

When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall one
by one, an unpitied sacrifice in a contemptible struggle.

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Re: Donations

paul (Bugzilla)-23
In reply to this post by Theo de Raadt
On 12/05/2010 01:05 AM, Theo de Raadt wrote:
> If you think it is in the US news, you have a long way to go.
>
> guardian.co.uk/world is the best place to read the *message*.
http://feeds.guardian.co.uk/theguardian/world/rss

nice, thanks!

--  
Paul Cartwright

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Re: Donations

SJP Lists
In reply to this post by SJP Lists
On 5 December 2010 22:20, SJP Lists <[hidden email]> wrote:
> On 5 December 2010 17:05, Theo de Raadt <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> On Dec 4, 2010, at 7:25 PM, Theo de Raadt wrote:
>>> > If you don't know why I am sending this mail.. you are reading US
>>> > managed news, and need to much much more informed....
>>>
>>> It's in the US news.  Even the mainstream news on TV.  At least in
Silicon

>>> Valley. ;-)
>>
>> No, it isn't in the US news.
>>
>> The US news is all about the messenger, to distract you from reading
>> the message.
>>
>> If you think it is in the US news, you have a long way to go.
>>
>> guardian.co.uk/world is the best place to read the *message*.
>
> I would love to witness the theory that people can bring about change
> by voting with their dollars, but nowadays there never seems to be
> enough willing to prove that a big enough dent can be made to bring
> about positive change.  I fear that convenience matters more to a lot
> of people than say a political adviser publicly calling for the
> assassination of a messenger who is just communicating the wrong
> doings of the most powerful against the weakest.
>
>
> Still, I want to continue to hope and where possible at least try to
> be the change I want to see in the World, as that saying goes.
>
> So,
>
> 1. login to eBay
> 2. Click the Profile tab
> 3. Click close account
> 4. Prove I am me
> 5. etc (wait for my last bloody transaction to complete before they
> allow me to leave!)
> 6. Hopefully get presented with a "Why?" form so I can tell them to
> burn in hell for selling out to the Worlds biggest and most dangerous
> terrorist group.
>
>
> My last donation recently to OpenBSD and the biggest since I started
> using OpenBSD with 2.5 in 1999/2000, was via PayPal.  And I used
> PayPal for lots of other things for years.  My next donation will be
> via other means.
>
> Cheers,
>
>
> Shane J Pearson
>
> ---
>
> When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall one
> by one, an unpitied sacrifice in a contemptible struggle.

Oh and since PayPal are owned by eBay, here's a list of eBay
acquisitions, which might need to receive a message of some sort:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_acquisitions_by_eBay

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Re: Donations

Randal L. Schwartz
In reply to this post by Theo de Raadt
>>>>> "Theo" == Theo de Raadt <[hidden email]> writes:

Theo> If you don't know why I am sending this mail.. you are reading US
Theo> managed news, and need to much much more informed....

If this is in reference to Wikileaks, it's because Paypal believes that
Wikileaks is involved in illegal activity, and to some degree, I agree
with them.  (I believe a lot of the "diplomatic actions" we do in the US
are wrong, but two wrongs don't make a right.)

Are you planning on having the OpenBSD development team perform some
sort of illegal activity soon?

If not, you shouldn't be worried about Paypal.

If it's not about Wikileaks, google searches don't show anything else
particularly interesting about Paypal recently, so I wonder what
triggered your message.

--
Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095
<[hidden email]> <URL:http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/>
Smalltalk/Perl/Unix consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc.
See http://methodsandmessages.posterous.com/ for Smalltalk discussion

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Re: Donations

Theo de Raadt
> Theo> If you don't know why I am sending this mail.. you are reading US
> Theo> managed news, and need to much much more informed....
>
> If this is in reference to Wikileaks, it's because Paypal believes that
> Wikileaks is involved in illegal activity, and to some degree, I agree
> with them.  (I believe a lot of the "diplomatic actions" we do in the US
> are wrong, but two wrongs don't make a right.)

Knowing the truth is never wrong.  Those diplomats are supposed to be
your servants, not your masters.

And what happened to due process?

Imagine I turned it around: Randal L. Schwartz, I believe you are
involved in illegal activity.

> Are you planning on having the OpenBSD development team perform some
> sort of illegal activity soon?
>
> If not, you shouldn't be worried about Paypal.

You have it entirely backwards.

> If it's not about Wikileaks, google searches don't show anything else
> particularly interesting about Paypal recently, so I wonder what
> triggered your message.

You are only reading US media.  There you said it as well, "google".
Hah.

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Re: Donations

Steve Williams-16
In reply to this post by Randal L. Schwartz
On 12/5/2010 12:10 PM, Randal L. Schwartz wrote:

>>>>>> "Theo" == Theo de Raadt<[hidden email]>  writes:
> Theo>  If you don't know why I am sending this mail.. you are reading US
> Theo>  managed news, and need to much much more informed....
>
> If this is in reference to Wikileaks, it's because Paypal believes that
> Wikileaks is involved in illegal activity, and to some degree, I agree
> with them.  (I believe a lot of the "diplomatic actions" we do in the US
> are wrong, but two wrongs don't make a right.)
>
> Are you planning on having the OpenBSD development team perform some
> sort of illegal activity soon?
>
> If not, you shouldn't be worried about Paypal.
>
> If it's not about Wikileaks, google searches don't show anything else
> particularly interesting about Paypal recently, so I wonder what
> triggered your message.
>
Hi,

The problem is with your statement "PayPal believes".  PayPal is run by
people.  Those people have made an arbitrary decision.  Sure, if the
people that run WikiLeaks are CONVICTED of a crime, then, and only then
they might be justified to pull WikiLeaks account.

The next time, what are the PayPal people going to arbitrarily decide is
"wrong".  If some company actually used OpenBSD to make a baby mulching
machine, would they cut off OpenBSD donations without anyone in OpenBSD
being convicted of a crime?  Perhaps they would even confiscate the
money in OpenBSD's PayPal account.

Per http://www.paypalsucks.com/,

"...but someone pays you with a stolen credit card, your account (by
PayPal's own admission) is immediately flagged as being "criminal
behavior" and any money in that account is confiscated."

PayPal does suck.  I've been forced to try to use it from South America
(when I live in Canada), and it won't let you!  I had to take a bus for
a day to get to the office to be able to hand them cash.

Cheers,
Steve

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Re: Donations

Adam M. Dutko
In reply to this post by Theo de Raadt
> > Are you planning on having the OpenBSD development team perform some
> > sort of illegal activity soon?
> >
> > If not, you shouldn't be worried about Paypal.
>

You're discussing intent.  Intent is a tricky thing that in the past lawyers
had to jump through hoops to prove in the (fed)nited States.  Now with the
(un)Patriot Act and other legislation they can rely on the whole notion of
"pre-crime."

Seems like most of America is happy with "point and click" hegemony and I'm
glad the Internet is trying to block the interrupts.

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Re: Donations

James A. Peltier
----- Original Message -----
| > > Are you planning on having the OpenBSD development team perform
| > > some
| > > sort of illegal activity soon?
| > >
| > > If not, you shouldn't be worried about Paypal.
| >
|
| You're discussing intent. Intent is a tricky thing that in the past
| lawyers
| had to jump through hoops to prove in the (fed)nited States. Now with
| the
| (un)Patriot Act and other legislation they can rely on the whole
| notion of
| "pre-crime."
|
| Seems like most of America is happy with "point and click" hegemony
| and I'm
| glad the Internet is trying to block the interrupts.

I don't understand the worry about these "pre-cogs"  Minority report proved the theory to be infallible. :)

--
James A. Peltier
Systems Analyst (FASNet), VIVARIUM Technical Director
Simon Fraser University - Burnaby Campus
Phone   : 778-782-6573
Fax     : 778-782-3045
E-Mail  : [hidden email]
Website : http://www.fas.sfu.ca | http://vivarium.cs.sfu.ca
          http://blogs.sfu.ca/people/jpeltier
MSN     : [hidden email]

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Re: Donations

L. V. Lammert
In reply to this post by Randal L. Schwartz
On Sun, 5 Dec 2010, Randal L. Schwartz wrote:

> >>>>> "Theo" == Theo de Raadt <[hidden email]> writes:
>
> Theo> If you don't know why I am sending this mail.. you are reading US
> Theo> managed news, and need to much much more informed....
>
Assuming you're talking about PayPal freezing the WikeLeaks account,
Assange could only have been looking for publicity, as nobody but a total
idiot would use PayPal for such a political hot potato!

I agree totally that there are a lot of idiots running parts of the US
system, but at least they ARE predictable.

        Lee

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Re: Donations

Robert Bronsdon
On Sun, 05 Dec 2010 21:41:13 -0000, L. V. Lammert <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Assuming you're talking about PayPal freezing the WikeLeaks account,
> Assange could only have been looking for publicity, as nobody but a total
> idiot would use PayPal for such a political hot potato!

You talk like Assange did something wrong. The right to free press is  
never wrong.

Theo asking donations are not given to a company that arbitrarily decide  
if/when they wish to pass that money on, whether driven by the wikileaks  
cause or not, is a sensible decision.

I would not wish my donation to a project "eated up" by politics along its  
way.

--
Robert Bronsdon

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Re: Donations

L. V. Lammert
On Sun, 5 Dec 2010, Robert Bronsdon wrote:

> On Sun, 05 Dec 2010 21:41:13 -0000, L. V. Lammert <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > Assuming you're talking about PayPal freezing the WikeLeaks account,
> > Assange could only have been looking for publicity, as nobody but a total
> > idiot would use PayPal for such a political hot potato!
>
> You talk like Assange did something wrong. The right to free press is
> never wrong.
>
Didn't say he did anything *wrong* - I said that he must have planned it
for publicity. I would not accuse him of the other possibility, being too
dumb as to not anticipate such an action.

> Theo asking donations are not given to a company that arbitrarily decide
> if/when they wish to pass that money on, whether driven by the wikileaks
> cause or not, is a sensible decision.
>
Have you ever tried to read the TOS? Any such organization with unlimited
legal resources can do whatever the wish - as long as it's not contrary to
the current legal winds, they will get away with it.

> I would not wish my donation to a project "eated up" by politics along its
> way.
>
Agree there - I'm not saying USE PayPal, just that he must have done it
for the publicity, as the other possibility does not say much for his
intelligence.

        Lee

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Re: Donations

Dmitrij D. Czarkoff-2
In reply to this post by Theo de Raadt
> On Sun, 5 Dec 2010, Randal L. Schwartz wrote:
> I agree totally that there are a lot of idiots running parts of the US
> system, but at least they ARE predictable.

Being predictable is just not enough. Hardly You would enjoy predictibility of
You being put to prison on suspection of possibility of You commiting some
crime.

--
Dmitrij D. Czarkoff

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Re: Donations

L. V. Lammert
On Sun, 5 Dec 2010, Dmitrij D. Czarkoff wrote:

> > On Sun, 5 Dec 2010, Randal L. Schwartz wrote:
> > I agree totally that there are a lot of idiots running parts of the US
> > system, but at least they ARE predictable.
>
> Being predictable is just not enough. Hardly You would enjoy predictibility of
> You being put to prison on suspection of possibility of You commiting some
> crime.
>
Actually, being predictable ALLOWS planning to avoid such problems!

Ever head of Don Quixote? THe moral of the storey - pick the battles you
have a chance of winning and avoid the rest.

        Lee

1234