DigitalOcean's BSD debut is FreeBSD only

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Re: DigitalOcean's BSD debut is FreeBSD only

Bryan Irvine
FWIW I have an OpenBSD 'box' with rootbsd.net. Never a single issue ever.

On Tue, Dec 16, 2014 at 7:10 AM, <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> Hi,
>
> It seems that DigitalOcean's BSD debut is going to be FreeBSD only. We, in
> the OpenBSD community, are being asked to open up a separate UserVoice vote
> for OpenBSD -- despite the fact that we've worked so hard to promote the
> existing one. So, please drop by and share your frustrations:
>
>
> https://digitalocean.uservoice.com/forums/136585-digitalocean/suggestions/3232571-support-bsd-os
> -- I reckon around half the votes are from OpenBSD users.
>
> Many thanks!
>
> O.D.

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Re: DigitalOcean's BSD debut is FreeBSD only

opendaddy
In reply to this post by opendaddy
Hi,

On 16. desember 2014 at 11:14 PM, "Jan Stary" <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
>On Dec 16 17:58:37, [hidden email] wrote:
>> I think the typical user will eventually realize that OpenBSD is
>one of the most valuable assets he or she can use in the pursuit
>of happiness and livelihood for ones family. Once that time comes,
>he or she will most definitely be looking for something like
>DigitalOcean.
>
>Riiiiight, because once you realize OpenBSD is a valuable asset,
>you are obviously gonna need cloud-based storage. Idiot.

I don't see the need to twist my words like that. Should the average user decide to become a web or mobile app developer, cloud-based hosting would surely be the most convenient, and surely OpenBSD would give him or her a competitive advantage over the others.

O.D.

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Re: DigitalOcean's BSD debut is FreeBSD only

andrew fabbro
In reply to this post by opendaddy
Rather than discuss provider by provider, when looking for an OpenBSD VPS,
look for KVM.  OpenBSD runs on virtually any KVM provider and there are
many, at both the low $3-4/month end and at the high end.  I've run OpenBSD
on KVM for several years at a variety of providers.

OpenBSD obviously does not run on OpenVZ or Virtuozzo (as they are only
virtualizing the OS, not the machine).  With Xen, it depends as there are a
couple different modes, but in the commercial marketplace, it seems most
providers are supporting Linux only.

Some providers (DO, Vultr, 6sync, etc.) are setup to only handle Linux but
under the hood they'e running KVM and there is no technical barrier, though
they may not want to support BSD.  Other providers (AWS, Azure, etc.) are
using internally modified Xen which may or may not provide full machine
virtualization.  People run FreeBSD at AWS and Azure, though I have not yet
heard of anyone running OpenBSD there.

OpenBSD also runs fine in VMware's server products but I haven't seen a lot
of providers using that.

In short - the list of VPS providers who can support OpenBSD is actually
very big.



Andrew Fabbro
[hidden email]
https://raindog308.com

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Re: DigitalOcean's BSD debut is FreeBSD only

Adam Thompson
On 14-12-18 12:06 PM, andrew fabbro wrote:
> In short - the list of VPS providers who can support OpenBSD is actually
> very big.
I have to take issue with that statement...

The list of VPS providers where OpenBSD will run, more or less
correctly, more or less all of the time, is actually very big.  It will
even run correctly all of the time on a fairly large list of providers.

However, the list of VPS providers who are willing to *support* OpenBSD
is extremely small.

What do you do if one day you're only getting 100kbps throughput? Call
support, who - as soon as they learn you're running OpenBSD - tell you
"that's not supported, sorry" and hang up.  When ACPI goes haywire
(normal under KVM so far)... same thing.  Not naming names, but this
isn't just a theoretical problem.

If you're lucky, great - go get bargain-basement VPS hosting on KVM (or
Xen or whatever happens to work for you).
If you're not so lucky, or you need better guarantees that "it might
work", then your options are quite limited.

--
-Adam Thompson
  [hidden email]
  Cell: +1 204 291-7950
  Fax: +1 204 489-6515

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Re: DigitalOcean's BSD debut is FreeBSD only

andrew fabbro
On Thu, Dec 18, 2014 at 10:24 AM, Adam Thompson <[hidden email]>
wrote:
>
> The list of VPS providers where OpenBSD will run, more or less correctly,
> more or less all of the time, is actually very big.  It will even run
> correctly all of the time on a fairly large list of providers.
>
> However, the list of VPS providers who are willing to *support* OpenBSD is
> extremely small


Yes, this is true.

With the unmanaged providers, OpenBSD is no better or worse than any other
OS.  The provider will help if there's something broken on the hardware
they manage, but "inside" your VPS, you're on your own.  And unfortunately,
and perhaps not surprisingly, Linux distros running on a Linux
virutalization tech (KVM) generally run fine out of the box while OpenBSD
requires a bit more special handling (setting vio flags, turning APIC off,
etc.) and tends to reveal more bugs in KVM.

Even there, often times unmanaged providers are familiar with the typical
problems a Debian or Centos VPS will have and will assist, while OpenBSD is
alien to them.

With managed providers...there are very few who support OpenBSD.

running OpenBSD - tell you "that's not supported, sorry" and hang up.  When
> ACPI goes haywire (normal under KVM so far)...


I haven't had it go haywire per se, but sometimes have to turn it off
during install, back on during regular use, and I have to turn APIC off.
Oddly, the exact same settings with the exact same bsd.rd will cause a
panic on one KVM and not on another.

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Re: DigitalOcean's BSD debut is FreeBSD only

Mike Larkin
In reply to this post by Adam Thompson
On Thu, Dec 18, 2014 at 12:24:45PM -0600, Adam Thompson wrote:

> On 14-12-18 12:06 PM, andrew fabbro wrote:
> >In short - the list of VPS providers who can support OpenBSD is actually
> >very big.
> I have to take issue with that statement...
>
> The list of VPS providers where OpenBSD will run, more or less
> correctly, more or less all of the time, is actually very big.  It
> will even run correctly all of the time on a fairly large list of
> providers.
>
> However, the list of VPS providers who are willing to *support*
> OpenBSD is extremely small.
>
> What do you do if one day you're only getting 100kbps throughput?
> Call support, who - as soon as they learn you're running OpenBSD -
> tell you "that's not supported, sorry" and hang up.  When ACPI goes
> haywire (normal under KVM so far)... same thing.  Not naming names,

And your bug report for this is ... where?

-ml

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Re: DigitalOcean's BSD debut is FreeBSD only

Daniel Cegiełka
In reply to this post by andrew fabbro
2014-12-18 19:37 GMT+01:00 andrew fabbro <[hidden email]>:

> On Thu, Dec 18, 2014 at 10:24 AM, Adam Thompson <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>>
>> The list of VPS providers where OpenBSD will run, more or less correctly,
>> more or less all of the time, is actually very big.  It will even run
>> correctly all of the time on a fairly large list of providers.
>>
>> However, the list of VPS providers who are willing to *support* OpenBSD is
>> extremely small
>
>
> Yes, this is true.

http://www.bsws.de/en/
http://www.bsws.de/en/sicherheit/

It is based on OpenBSD, if someone is interested. BS actively supports
the development of OpenBSD (yup developers). Maybe it's worth to
publish on openbsd.org a list of companies with such an offer (OpenBSD
based VPS)?

btw. I do not have nothing to do with them, provides a link only.

Best regards,
Daniel

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Re: DigitalOcean's BSD debut is FreeBSD only

Brad Smith-14
In reply to this post by Mike Larkin
On 12/18/14 13:57, Mike Larkin wrote:

> On Thu, Dec 18, 2014 at 12:24:45PM -0600, Adam Thompson wrote:
>> On 14-12-18 12:06 PM, andrew fabbro wrote:
>>> In short - the list of VPS providers who can support OpenBSD is actually
>>> very big.
>> I have to take issue with that statement...
>>
>> The list of VPS providers where OpenBSD will run, more or less
>> correctly, more or less all of the time, is actually very big.  It
>> will even run correctly all of the time on a fairly large list of
>> providers.
>>
>> However, the list of VPS providers who are willing to *support*
>> OpenBSD is extremely small.
>>
>> What do you do if one day you're only getting 100kbps throughput?
>> Call support, who - as soon as they learn you're running OpenBSD -
>> tell you "that's not supported, sorry" and hang up.  When ACPI goes
>> haywire (normal under KVM so far)... same thing.  Not naming names,
>
> And your bug report for this is ... where?

It was a hypothetical situation not a known issue.


--
This message has been scanned for viruses and
dangerous content by MailScanner, and is
believed to be clean.

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Re: DigitalOcean's BSD debut is FreeBSD only

andrew fabbro
In reply to this post by Mike Larkin
On Thu, Dec 18, 2014 at 10:57 AM, Mike Larkin <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> And your bug report for this is ... where?


I thought about filing a bug report regarding a couple panics I've had on
install (that went away with ACPI disabled in the provider's KVM control
panel), but when I started to think about actually saying "hey OpenBSD
developers, I have a problem when running OpenBSD inside a Linux Kernel
Virtualization Mode machine" I just couldn't bring myself to do it.  I was
guessing that running OpenBSD inside the Linux kernel was not something
that developers would be very interested in, particularly as the bugs are
probably more likely to be outside OpenBSD than within it.

However, if it would be beneficial to the project, I can certainly document
and submit them.

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Re: DigitalOcean's BSD debut is FreeBSD only

Adam Thompson
In reply to this post by Mike Larkin
On 14-12-18 12:57 PM, Mike Larkin wrote:

> On Thu, Dec 18, 2014 at 12:24:45PM -0600, Adam Thompson wrote:
>> On 14-12-18 12:06 PM, andrew fabbro wrote:
>>> In short - the list of VPS providers who can support OpenBSD is actually
>>> very big.
>> I have to take issue with that statement...
>>
>> The list of VPS providers where OpenBSD will run, more or less
>> correctly, more or less all of the time, is actually very big.  It
>> will even run correctly all of the time on a fairly large list of
>> providers.
>>
>> However, the list of VPS providers who are willing to *support*
>> OpenBSD is extremely small.
>>
>> What do you do if one day you're only getting 100kbps throughput?
>> Call support, who - as soon as they learn you're running OpenBSD -
>> tell you "that's not supported, sorry" and hang up.  When ACPI goes
>> haywire (normal under KVM so far)... same thing.  Not naming names,
> And your bug report for this is ... where?
>
> -ml
The last time I filed a bugreport on OpenBSD in a virtualized
environment, I got flamed for not running it on real hardware. Haven't
bothered since.  However, that was a few years ago, and the ACPI
shutdown issue is a big enough PITA that I'll file again soon.  
Difficult to debug, though, since the all I/O except wscons just freezes
upon receipt of the ACPI signal.

--
-Adam Thompson
  [hidden email]

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Re: DigitalOcean's BSD debut is FreeBSD only

Theo de Raadt
In reply to this post by opendaddy
> Maybe it's worth to publish on openbsd.org a list of companies with
> such an offer (OpenBSD based VPS)?

Maybe it is worth publishing a list of laptops OpenBSD works on? Or,
maybe a list of ethernet cards.

Is this purpose's project to maintain lists, or to try to make the
code better as best as we can?

I think it is better to just make things work as best we can, and let
the market sort itself out.  Managing the supply side is properly your
burden.

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Re: DigitalOcean's BSD debut is FreeBSD only

L. V. Lammert
In reply to this post by andrew fabbro
On Thu, 18 Dec 2014, andrew fabbro wrote:

> Rather than discuss provider by provider, when looking for an OpenBSD VPS,
> look for KVM.  OpenBSD runs on virtually any KVM provider and there are
> many, at both the low $3-4/month end and at the high end.  I've run OpenBSD
> on KVM for several years at a variety of providers.
>
FYI, Xen [free] is also usable with OpenBSD, .. makes a great VM
platform, been using it for years here in the shop.

        Lee

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Re: DigitalOcean's BSD debut is FreeBSD only

Mike Larkin
In reply to this post by Adam Thompson
On Thu, Dec 18, 2014 at 01:21:47PM -0600, Adam Thompson wrote:

> On 14-12-18 12:57 PM, Mike Larkin wrote:
> >On Thu, Dec 18, 2014 at 12:24:45PM -0600, Adam Thompson wrote:
> >>On 14-12-18 12:06 PM, andrew fabbro wrote:
> >>>In short - the list of VPS providers who can support OpenBSD is actually
> >>>very big.
> >>I have to take issue with that statement...
> >>
> >>The list of VPS providers where OpenBSD will run, more or less
> >>correctly, more or less all of the time, is actually very big.  It
> >>will even run correctly all of the time on a fairly large list of
> >>providers.
> >>
> >>However, the list of VPS providers who are willing to *support*
> >>OpenBSD is extremely small.
> >>
> >>What do you do if one day you're only getting 100kbps throughput?
> >>Call support, who - as soon as they learn you're running OpenBSD -
> >>tell you "that's not supported, sorry" and hang up.  When ACPI goes
> >>haywire (normal under KVM so far)... same thing.  Not naming names,
> >And your bug report for this is ... where?
> >
> >-ml
> The last time I filed a bugreport on OpenBSD in a virtualized
> environment, I got flamed for not running it on real hardware.
> Haven't bothered since.  However, that was a few years ago, and the
> ACPI shutdown issue is a big enough PITA that I'll file again soon.
> Difficult to debug, though, since the all I/O except wscons just
> freezes upon receipt of the ACPI signal.
>
> --
> -Adam Thompson
>  [hidden email]
>

It would be useful to at least see if this is a real ACPI issue or if this
some problem KVM is causing. The former will elicit more sympathy than
the latter.

-ml

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Re: DigitalOcean's BSD debut is FreeBSD only

Worik Stanton
In reply to this post by Adam Thompson
On 19/12/14 08:21, Adam Thompson wrote:
> The last time I filed a bugreport on OpenBSD in a virtualized
> environment, I got flamed for not running it on real hardware.
> Haven't bothered since.

Ummm...  Harden up.  Flames are common around here.  But I feel your pain.

I use VPS to run OpenBSD in two places.  I have been following this
thread with interest.

Some cheap VPS providers allow you to use a custom ISO which is a
straight forward process, but looking at this thread I am wondering if I
have the whole picture.

Is this a suggestion for a new chapter in the FAQ?

Worik

--
Why is the legal status of chardonnay different to that of cannabis?
       [hidden email] 021-1680650, (03) 4821804
                          Aotearoa (New Zealand)
                             I voted for love

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Re: DigitalOcean's BSD debut is FreeBSD only

Mihai Popescu-3
In reply to this post by opendaddy
Using any OS on top of any virtual machine is like scratching your
left year with your right leg as human. What is the noble purpose of
doing that?

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Re: DigitalOcean's BSD debut is FreeBSD only

Gene-46
On Fri, Dec 19, 2014 at 8:45 AM, Mihai Popescu <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Using any OS on top of any virtual machine is like scratching your
> left year with your right leg as human. What is the noble purpose of
> doing that?
>

Gee whiz.  How incredibly insightful.

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Re: DigitalOcean's BSD debut is FreeBSD only

Some Developer
In reply to this post by opendaddy
On 16/12/14 15:10, [hidden email] wrote:

> Hi,
>
> It seems that DigitalOcean's BSD debut is going to be FreeBSD only. We, in the OpenBSD community, are being asked to open up a separate UserVoice vote for OpenBSD -- despite the fact that we've worked so hard to promote the existing one. So, please drop by and share your frustrations:
>
> https://digitalocean.uservoice.com/forums/136585-digitalocean/suggestions/3232571-support-bsd-os -- I reckon around half the votes are from OpenBSD users.
>
> Many thanks!
>
> O.D.
>

Vultr already support OpenBSD on their servers (you upload the OpenBSD
install ISO and install it yourself) and their servers cost the same as
Digital Ocean.

Performance is good. They support IPv6 and they have more locations than
Digital Ocean. Overall very pleased with them.

They also support FreeBSD as well.

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free ipv6 KVM-based - cloudspin.me [was - Re: DigitalOcean's BSD debut is FreeBSD only]

Jiri B-2
On Sun, Dec 21, 2014 at 01:54:50AM +0000, Some Developer wrote:
> Vultr already support OpenBSD on their servers (you upload the
> OpenBSD install ISO and install it yourself) and their servers cost
> the same as Digital Ocean.
>
> Performance is good. They support IPv6 and they have more locations
> than Digital Ocean. Overall very pleased with them.

My coll told me about cloudspin.me, it's oVirt/KVM based service,
free of charge, public IPv6 only. oVirt is upstream OSS project
for Red Hat Enterprise Virtualization.

cloudspin.me does not offer OpenBSD image, what a suprise, but
I suppose everybody is able to `dd' minirootXX.fs onto virtio
disk :)

j.

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Re: free ipv6 KVM-based - cloudspin.me [was - Re: DigitalOcean's BSD debut is FreeBSD only]

Florian Obser-2
On Sun, Dec 21, 2014 at 06:08:04PM -0500, Jiri B wrote:

> On Sun, Dec 21, 2014 at 01:54:50AM +0000, Some Developer wrote:
> > Vultr already support OpenBSD on their servers (you upload the
> > OpenBSD install ISO and install it yourself) and their servers cost
> > the same as Digital Ocean.
> >
> > Performance is good. They support IPv6 and they have more locations
> > than Digital Ocean. Overall very pleased with them.
>
> My coll told me about cloudspin.me, it's oVirt/KVM based service,
> free of charge, public IPv6 only. oVirt is upstream OSS project
> for Red Hat Enterprise Virtualization.
>
> cloudspin.me does not offer OpenBSD image, what a suprise, but
> I suppose everybody is able to `dd' minirootXX.fs onto virtio
> disk :)

It now offers an OpenBSD iso, runs just fine...

Looks like some random dude finally implemented xkcd 908

>
> j.
>

--
I'm not entirely sure you are real.

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Re: free ipv6 KVM-based - cloudspin.me [was - Re: DigitalOcean's BSD debut is FreeBSD only]

Donny Davis
I am trying to produce images of all the popular distros, but time is always
short and I am a one man show. Having a DNS server that people can create
their own resolvable hostnames is more pressing.
 I have iso's uploaded so people can roll their own.

You are also free to create your own image an publish it to the community. I
don't limit capabilities, only resources because they are finite.


Donny Davis
cloudspin.me

-----Original Message-----
From: Florian Obser [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: Monday, December 22, 2014 8:43 AM
To: Jiri B
Cc: Some Developer; [hidden email]
Subject: Re: free ipv6 KVM-based - cloudspin.me [was - Re: DigitalOcean's
BSD debut is FreeBSD only]

On Sun, Dec 21, 2014 at 06:08:04PM -0500, Jiri B wrote:

> On Sun, Dec 21, 2014 at 01:54:50AM +0000, Some Developer wrote:
> > Vultr already support OpenBSD on their servers (you upload the
> > OpenBSD install ISO and install it yourself) and their servers cost
> > the same as Digital Ocean.
> >
> > Performance is good. They support IPv6 and they have more locations
> > than Digital Ocean. Overall very pleased with them.
>
> My coll told me about cloudspin.me, it's oVirt/KVM based service, free
> of charge, public IPv6 only. oVirt is upstream OSS project for Red Hat
> Enterprise Virtualization.
>
> cloudspin.me does not offer OpenBSD image, what a suprise, but I
> suppose everybody is able to `dd' minirootXX.fs onto virtio disk :)

It now offers an OpenBSD iso, runs just fine...

Looks like some random dude finally implemented xkcd 908

>
> j.
>

--
I'm not entirely sure you are real.

123