Community-driven OpenBSD tutorials wiki?

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Re: Community-driven OpenBSD tutorials wiki?

acampbell
On 04 Jan 2018, Ve Telko wrote:

> Hi Andreas,
>
> I installed OpenBSD on Oct. 16. 2017 after 18 years in Linux motivated by 
> reading an article from Derek Sivers on OpenBSD 6.1/6.2
>
> I started with reading FAQ and mailing lists (mostly tech and misc) history.
> I also searched for some other articles on OpenBSD but I very soon 
> understood, that there are very few and that this is absolutely another 
> world, than Linux.
>
> Now after several weeks I use Google only occasionally, I stopped using 
> stackoverflow et. al. I'm just reading FAQ, man pages, dotfiles and gists
> on Github and if I need to ask for help I ask people in OpenBSD Jumpstart 
> group in Telegram or people on Twitter. They are very friendly
> and willing to help with anything.
>
> Don't spend your time or energy on something like Arch Linux wiki.
>
> Ve.

I also arrived here from Linux, a little over 3 years ago in my case,
though it was a gradual switch taking about 6 months to be complete.
I've been impressed by the stability of -current compared with Arch and
Debian sid.

I agree that where you find support for Obsd is a major difference from
Liuux. In addition to the resources mentioned above I'd recommend
www.daemonforums.org as suggested in Absolute OpenBSD. I read this site
regularly and I've consistently found people there to be knowledgeable,
helpful, and patient.

Once or twice I've emailed the maintainer of a package I was having
trouble with and found them very helpful.

A.

--
Anthony Campbell http://www.acampbell.uk

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Re: Community-driven OpenBSD tutorials wiki?

Jean-Michel Pouré
In reply to this post by Ve Telko
On Thu, 04 Jan 2018 23:22:58 +0100
Ve Telko <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I installed OpenBSD on Oct. 16. 2017 after 18 years in Linux motivated by 
> reading an article from Derek Sivers on OpenBSD 6.1/6.2

This is exactly my profile: running GNU/Linux since 1998
(don't remember exactly "when"), I just migrated to OpenBSD.

A French site helped me a lot: https://wiki.obsd4a.net/doku.php

It offers OpenBSD man pages and additional articles (in French):
https://wiki.obsd4a.net/doku.php#documentations_par_nos_soins

I could also ask questions on their forum.

Some traditional questions that I needed support on:
* pf migration.
* How to resize a partition // Dual boot installer with Linux.
* how to mount a FAT USB drive.
* How to install XCFE.
* How to customize the installer.
* How to burn a CD.

So I don't agree with your point here: although OpenBSD man pages truely are the best
in the world, there is a need for a third-party technical site publishing articles.

I might be interested in launching/running such a site, as the infrastructure seems
very minimal and as written previously success relies mainly on close maintenance.

Kind regards,
--
Jean-Michel Pouré <[hidden email]>

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Re: Community-driven OpenBSD tutorials wiki?

Mike Burns
On 2018-01-05 10.35.14 +0100, Jean-Michel Pouré wrote:
> Some traditional questions that I needed support on:
> * pf migration.

http://www.openbsd.org/faq/pf/index.html

> * How to resize a partition // Dual boot installer with Linux.

http://www.openbsd.org/faq/faq4.html#Multibooting

> * how to mount a FAT USB drive.

http://www.openbsd.org/faq/faq14.html#foreignfs

> * How to install XCFE.

http://www.openbsd.org/faq/faq15.html

> * How to customize the installer.

http://www.openbsd.org/faq/faq4.html#site

> * How to burn a CD.

http://www.openbsd.org/faq/faq13.html#burnCD

> So I don't agree with your point here: although OpenBSD man pages truely are the best
> in the world, there is a need for a third-party technical site publishing articles.

Why must it be third-party? OpenBSD accepts patches to the FAQ.

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Re: Community-driven OpenBSD tutorials wiki?

Karel Gardas
In reply to this post by Andreas Thulin-2
On Thu, 04 Jan 2018 14:17:51 +0000
Andreas Thulin <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi all!
>
> Thought I'd create an OpenBSD wiki somewhere, where anyone (especially
> non-developers like myself) could create and edit tutorials for stuff
> non-developers like myself would find useful. I find that sometimes
> existing tutorials become outdated, and was thinking that a wiki would make
> updates easier.

Not bad idea, but when speaking about OpenBSD I would rather recommend to update/fix/enhance OpenBSD's own man collection.

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Re: Community-driven OpenBSD tutorials wiki?

who one
imho use the official documentation, not separated wiki. this is the right way.

> Sent: Friday, January 05, 2018 at 8:32 PM
> From: "Karel Gardas" <[hidden email]>
> To: "Andreas Thulin" <[hidden email]>
> Cc: "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]>
> Subject: Re: Community-driven OpenBSD tutorials wiki?
>
> On Thu, 04 Jan 2018 14:17:51 +0000
> Andreas Thulin <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > Hi all!
> >
> > Thought I'd create an OpenBSD wiki somewhere, where anyone (especially
> > non-developers like myself) could create and edit tutorials for stuff
> > non-developers like myself would find useful. I find that sometimes
> > existing tutorials become outdated, and was thinking that a wiki would make
> > updates easier.
>
> Not bad idea, but when speaking about OpenBSD I would rather recommend to update/fix/enhance OpenBSD's own man collection.
>
>

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Re: Community-driven OpenBSD tutorials wiki?

Duncan Patton a Campbell
In reply to this post by Andreas Thulin-2

Just my two bits here.. some open, running, example systems might
add more than just a wiki; a documented installion with a visible
config..?

Dhu

On Thu, 04 Jan 2018 14:17:51 +0000
Andreas Thulin <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi all!
>
> Thought I'd create an OpenBSD wiki somewhere, where anyone (especially
> non-developers like myself) could create and edit tutorials for stuff
> non-developers like myself would find useful. I find that sometimes
> existing tutorials become outdated, and was thinking that a wiki would make
> updates easier.
>
> Before I go and create anything - are there already a place similar to what
> I'm describing, where I could get myself involved? (I'm too junior to start
> suggesting changes and updates to the docs on OpenBSD.org, and I'm not sure
> they should be used for what I want to achieve.)
>
> I know this comes out as yet another "let's start another project no one is
> asking for", but please be gentle with flaming me - I honestly want to
> contribute to the community to the extent of my abilities.
>
> Cheers,
> Andreas
>


--
 Je suis Canadien. Ce n'est pas Francais ou Anglaise.  
 C'est une esp`ece de sauvage: ne obliviscaris, vix ea nostra voco;-)

http://babayaga.neotext.ca/PublicKeys/Duncan_Patton_a_Campbell_pubkey.txt

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Re: Community-driven OpenBSD tutorials wiki?

Marko Cupać
In reply to this post by Nick Holland
Sorry for late chime-in.

On Thu, 4 Jan 2018 15:02:45 -0500
Nick Holland <[hidden email]> wrote:

> But the magic is not setting up the wiki (or anything else for
> documenting), it's MAINTAINING it and getting others to participate.
> ...
> For example, I looked at the first article on the mimar blog
> here, and I disagree with the basic structure.  Too much duplication
> of installation instructions, too much "do this", too little "here's
> why I'm doing this".  There's some really great things in there, like
> the -P command to populate the MFS file systems, without even
> commenting about that nifty command people might not know about.  And
> then you have a bunch of echos used to create a script.  boo.  Just
> provide the script and say "copy/paste this into your editor", or
> better, "here's how I did it", and assume if someone needs to be told
> to copy/paste into their editor, they shouldn't.  Don't obscure the
> actual details with "echo ...

I am doing my part! :D

I updated my article for 6.2 to include multiple disk partitions in
order to take advantage of W^X, kernel relinking etc. I also considered
your feedback and rewrote stuff without echos. There's even video
tutorial at the end of the page (I know I know everyone hates them).

!WARNING - BLATANT SELF PROMOTION BELOW!

[https://www.mimar.rs/blog/how-to-increase-openbsds-resilience-to-power-outages]

Feedback is welcome.
--
Before enlightenment - chop wood, draw water.
After  enlightenment - chop wood, draw water.

Marko Cupać
https://www.mimar.rs/

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Re: Community-driven OpenBSD tutorials wiki?

Aaron Mason
In reply to this post by Peter Nicolai Mathias Hansteen
On Fri, Jan 5, 2018 at 8:26 AM, Peter N. M. Hansteen <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> If you think you don't have the seniority to start submitting patches
> when you see a bug (even a typo in a man page or the faq), you're most
> likely wrong. Your first efforts will not be perfect of course, but if
> you put in the effort and are able to learn from constructive criticism,
> it's likely sooner or later you will be adding real value.
>

This.  I once submitted a patch to update THE PUBLIC WEBSITE (I
replaced some broken links with archived versions) and it was approved
without demur and on the website the next day.  If you have a change
to make and a patch to implement it, you can shape OpenBSD's future,
even if it's just to make sure the website has no broken links.
That's what keeps me coming back.

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Re: Community-driven OpenBSD tutorials wiki?

Theo de Raadt-2
Aaron Mason <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Fri, Jan 5, 2018 at 8:26 AM, Peter N. M. Hansteen <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> >
> > If you think you don't have the seniority to start submitting patches
> > when you see a bug (even a typo in a man page or the faq), you're most
> > likely wrong. Your first efforts will not be perfect of course, but if
> > you put in the effort and are able to learn from constructive criticism,
> > it's likely sooner or later you will be adding real value.
> >
>
> This.  I once submitted a patch to update THE PUBLIC WEBSITE (I
> replaced some broken links with archived versions) and it was approved
> without demur and on the website the next day.  If you have a change
> to make and a patch to implement it, you can shape OpenBSD's future,
> even if it's just to make sure the website has no broken links.
> That's what keeps me coming back.

We rarely commit the proposed fixes that people didn't submit.
Good to keep in mind.

On the other hand, we do get flooded.  Keep that in mind also.

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Re: Community-driven OpenBSD tutorials wiki?

Zeb Packard
Not a wiki, but if the mailing list is too busy daemon forums
has a community driven Guides and Howtos section.

http://daemonforums.org/forumdisplay.php?f=31
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Re: Community-driven OpenBSD tutorials wiki?

Vivek Vinod
In reply to this post by Aaron Mason
Offtopic -

I installed cowsay and erroneously thought there was an error in the manpage. Looked up cowsay in ports and wrote an email to the maintainer. The email bounced back.

Who would one email to in such a case?

Vivek

  Original Message  
From: [hidden email]
Sent: 12 April 2018 6:08 AM
To: [hidden email]
Cc: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: Community-driven OpenBSD tutorials wiki?

On Fri, Jan 5, 2018 at 8:26 AM, Peter N. M. Hansteen <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> If you think you don't have the seniority to start submitting patches
> when you see a bug (even a typo in a man page or the faq), you're most
> likely wrong. Your first efforts will not be perfect of course, but if
> you put in the effort and are able to learn from constructive criticism,
> it's likely sooner or later you will be adding real value.
>

This.  I once submitted a patch to update THE PUBLIC WEBSITE (I
replaced some broken links with archived versions) and it was approved
without demur and on the website the next day.  If you have a change
to make and a patch to implement it, you can shape OpenBSD's future,
even if it's just to make sure the website has no broken links.
That's what keeps me coming back.

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Re: Community-driven OpenBSD tutorials wiki?

Stuart Henderson
On 2018-04-12, Vivek Vinod <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Offtopic -
>
> I installed cowsay and erroneously thought there was an error in the manpage. Looked up cowsay in ports and wrote an email to the maintainer. The email bounced back.
>
> Who would one email to in such a case?

The ports mailing list.


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Re: Community-driven OpenBSD tutorials wiki?

Mike Burns
In reply to this post by Zeb Packard
On 2018-04-11 21.18.09 -0700, Zeb Packard wrote:
> Not a wiki, but if the mailing list is too busy daemon forums
> has a community driven Guides and Howtos section.

Here's a discussion about the idea of docs outside of man pages and FAQ:
https://marc.info/?l=openbsd-misc&m=151507550418796&w=2

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Re: Community-driven OpenBSD tutorials wiki?

Zeb Packard
Thanks, I like http://openbsd101.com/

This looks similar
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Community-driven OpenBSD tutorials wiki?

Jan Lambertz
Before working with OpenBSD, I thought archlinux had good documenation, (
the wiki ). On OpenBSD I rarely need more things than the man pages, the
ports PKG docs and tailing the logfiles. But I can understand that
sometimes it feels good for short term benefits to be able to use an up and
running config for xy.
I've read the pf.conf manpage very often and still there is space for my
config to improve but I (believe) begin to understand how to configure it
properly and how it should be used. Never had that feeling with online
wikis. There I searched for xy, found an post that seems close to my
problem, copy paste, restart program and maybe it worked or not. Sometimes
this is faster but I definitely learned more with while reading manpages.
For my part I think it's not possible to build something better than the
manpages for its purpose. I do like other sources of information but this
is more about projects. Someone built xy with OpenBSD and wrote an article
about it. Share your stories via undeadly or whatever. Build an index that
lists cool OpenBSD Projects for everyone to find. And the rest is up to the
user and man(1)
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Re: Community-driven OpenBSD tutorials wiki?

Zeb Packard
OpenBSD's man pages are a work of art. There's a cohesiveness to the base
that "feels" like concrete, like you can build anything on top of it.I
can't think of a lot of software projects that claim "correctness" as a
goal. Aerospace, OpenBSD, DragonFlyBSD, SQL(?) and some academic
exercises?! I remember reading "correctness" as an OpenBSD goal and
wondering what the fuck was wrong with the world? Why is a "correct"
operating system the outcast, the underdog?

Correctness is the thing with OpenBSD (IMHO). When a system is correct -
you don't need the regular gamut of crap in order to figure out what the
frak's going on. A little trial and error, investigation, asking the
"right" people the "right" questions, self reliance, persistence, and a
little picking the lock will get you "in". Exploration, experimentation,
explanation - dope it out.

That said, if a prospect doesn't want to "pick the lock" & just wants the
"key" they don't belong here. Keys cost money, pickin' locks/turnin'
wrenches - that's free, been true since wayBack. If you want to ride -
RIDE. If you can't drive - stick your thumb out and stfu.

Plenty of people will read this, think it's bullshit and get further than I
could hope. Others might take it as gospel and hopefully, bounce rather
than flounce. But that's just me, ain't my show.

All the docs I got for ya!

Z

On Fri, Apr 13, 2018 at 11:35 AM, Jan Lambertz <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> Before working with OpenBSD, I thought archlinux had good documenation, (
> the wiki ). On OpenBSD I rarely need more things than the man pages, the
> ports PKG docs and tailing the logfiles. But I can understand that
> sometimes it feels good for short term benefits to be able to use an up and
> running config for xy.
> I've read the pf.conf manpage very often and still there is space for my
> config to improve but I (believe) begin to understand how to configure it
> properly and how it should be used. Never had that feeling with online
> wikis. There I searched for xy, found an post that seems close to my
> problem, copy paste, restart program and maybe it worked or not. Sometimes
> this is faster but I definitely learned more with while reading manpages.
> For my part I think it's not possible to build something better than the
> manpages for its purpose. I do like other sources of information but this
> is more about projects. Someone built xy with OpenBSD and wrote an article
> about it. Share your stories via undeadly or whatever. Build an index that
> lists cool OpenBSD Projects for everyone to find. And the rest is up to the
> user and man(1)
>
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Re: Community-driven OpenBSD tutorials wiki?

Zeb Packard
*sorry
should have been

If you can't drive - stick your thumb out, stfu, and enjoy the ride.

On Fri, Apr 13, 2018 at 11:32 PM, Zeb Packard <[hidden email]> wrote:

> OpenBSD's man pages are a work of art. There's a cohesiveness to the base
> that "feels" like concrete, like you can build anything on top of it.I
> can't think of a lot of software projects that claim "correctness" as a
> goal. Aerospace, OpenBSD, DragonFlyBSD, SQL(?) and some academic
> exercises?! I remember reading "correctness" as an OpenBSD goal and
> wondering what the fuck was wrong with the world? Why is a "correct"
> operating system the outcast, the underdog?
>
> Correctness is the thing with OpenBSD (IMHO). When a system is correct -
> you don't need the regular gamut of crap in order to figure out what the
> frak's going on. A little trial and error, investigation, asking the
> "right" people the "right" questions, self reliance, persistence, and a
> little picking the lock will get you "in". Exploration, experimentation,
> explanation - dope it out.
>
> That said, if a prospect doesn't want to "pick the lock" & just wants the
> "key" they don't belong here. Keys cost money, pickin' locks/turnin'
> wrenches - that's free, been true since wayBack. If you want to ride -
> RIDE. If you can't drive - stick your thumb out and stfu.
>
> Plenty of people will read this, think it's bullshit and get further than
> I could hope. Others might take it as gospel and hopefully, bounce rather
> than flounce. But that's just me, ain't my show.
>
> All the docs I got for ya!
>
> Z
>
> On Fri, Apr 13, 2018 at 11:35 AM, Jan Lambertz <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
>> Before working with OpenBSD, I thought archlinux had good documenation, (
>> the wiki ). On OpenBSD I rarely need more things than the man pages, the
>> ports PKG docs and tailing the logfiles. But I can understand that
>> sometimes it feels good for short term benefits to be able to use an up
>> and
>> running config for xy.
>> I've read the pf.conf manpage very often and still there is space for my
>> config to improve but I (believe) begin to understand how to configure it
>> properly and how it should be used. Never had that feeling with online
>> wikis. There I searched for xy, found an post that seems close to my
>> problem, copy paste, restart program and maybe it worked or not. Sometimes
>> this is faster but I definitely learned more with while reading manpages.
>> For my part I think it's not possible to build something better than the
>> manpages for its purpose. I do like other sources of information but this
>> is more about projects. Someone built xy with OpenBSD and wrote an article
>> about it. Share your stories via undeadly or whatever. Build an index that
>> lists cool OpenBSD Projects for everyone to find. And the rest is up to
>> the
>> user and man(1)
>>
>
>
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Re: Community-driven OpenBSD tutorials wiki?

mehma sarja
I think what Jan is saying is sometimes we go to the hardware store for a
particular task, like weather proofing the home. And sometimes we go to the
store just to see what they have and you might want without a particular
project in mind.

Man pages, as opposed to woman pages, help one accomplish a task. A wiki
might give you ideas that did not occur to you.

Yudhvir
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Re: Community-driven OpenBSD tutorials wiki?

Mark Carroll
On 14 Apr 2018, Mehma Sarja wrote:

> I think what Jan is saying is sometimes we go to the hardware store for a
> particular task, like weather proofing the home. And sometimes we go to the
> store just to see what they have and you might want without a particular
> project in mind.
>
> Man pages, as opposed to woman pages, help one accomplish a task. A wiki
> might give you ideas that did not occur to you.

Do note though that OpenBSD, unusually among my limited experience, has
some great "general overview" manpages that reference others that are
more about specific tasks, netintro(4) for example whose SEE ALSO yields
fruitful exploration. (Other pages like usb(4) have plenty of references
in other sections too.) Or, for configuring software, the packages often
put good ideas into some examples/ directory that show how to realize
various things. Admittedly it can take a bit of time to really sit and
study this stuff but there are already ideas out there in these places
and a fair few of the broader topics also get a more obvious-at-a-glance
treatment in the also-preexisting OpenBSD FAQ whose outline is well
worth reading to see what's possible. Of course, a further source of
ideas is the topics that arise on this list.

-- Mark

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Re: Community-driven OpenBSD tutorials wiki?

Stuart Henderson
In reply to this post by mehma sarja
On 2018-04-14, Mehma Sarja <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Man pages, as opposed to woman pages, help one accomplish a task.

What do you mean, "as opposed to woman pages"?

In this context it is simply short for "manual".


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